How to pay missing UK National Insurance payments from Thailand?

[ianwuk]

Paid 3 years I think. Actually, my mum paid them without telling me, bless her. But missing about 30 years. I am 53 now. Don't suppose it is possible to pay the missing years (and yes I could afford it - just) or even worth it?

Garry, this is what I am trying to do too.

Start off by reading the attached form and go from there.

Regards.

Ian

NI38_CF83.pdf

Edited February 5, 2016 by ianwuk

[fletchsmile]

Paid 3 years I think. Actually, my mum paid them without telling me, bless her. But missing about 30 years. I am 53 now. Don't suppose it is possible to pay the missing years (and yes I could afford it - just) or even worth it?

Garry, this is what I am trying to do too.

Start off by reading the attached form and go from there.

Regards.

Ian

That's the best way forward really. Read the leaflet and then complete the form. What you complete on the form at the end will also drive what you are able to do next, when they respond, including whether you are able to pay the cheaper class 2 or can only pay the more expensive 3.

Filing the form in doesn't commit you to anything. When you get their response that will help you to assess what you want to do next.

The other things you probably want to do which compliment this if not done already are:

1) Get a pension to show how many qualifying years you have

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-statement

2) Check your NI contribution records

https://www.gov.uk/check-national-insurance-record

Cheers

Fletch

[fletchsmile]

Paid 3 years I think. Actually, my mum paid them without telling me, bless her. But missing about 30 years. I am 53 now. Don't suppose it is possible to pay the missing years (and yes I could afford it - just) or even worth it?

You generally need a minimum of 10 years to get anything. So as stands your 3 years wouldn't get you anywhere. You need at least another 7.

You'll probably be able to pay some of the missing years - likely last 6 not counting this - but not all

You could then start paying voluntary contributions like Ian is considering.

That probably won't get you the full state pensions but 3 + 6 + say 13/14 = 22 / 23 years (check your retirement date) would be a reasonable chunk of it.

Currently someone needs 30 years contributions for a full pension. That's set to rise to 35. A few years back it was more than 40. What it will be when you finally get there a decade or so from now could also have changed.

So let's say ball park you might get up to around two thirds of a full pension= 23/35 or 23/whatever the number is a decade or so from now.

Is it worth paying from here on?

If you can pay Class 2 it costs around 150 quid each year year to do so. Compared to getting say 1/35th of the state pension for each year. That's a good deal. If we assume state pension is around 6k a year, 1/35th is around 170 quid a year.

Pay 150 quid and get 170 quid a year for life = very good deal.

Pay 2 years 300 you get 340 a year for life

Pay 3 years you get 510 a year for life and so on (all these not adjusting for increases/ time value of money etc just simple ball parks)

So as long as you live to claim it, you should be worthwhile

If you pay Class 3

Class 3 is about 5 times as expensive, but that's still a reasonable deal in your case (as this will also bring into play the 3 wasted years you have which otherwise count for nothing).

You'd be paying around 730 quid to get that 170 quid a year for life.

Pay 2 years at 1,460 for that 340 a year for life etc

So there's sort of a break even you need to live about 5 years after retirement for payback. Not adjusting for the time value of money. If you adjusted for the time value for money, then you need to think what could you have earned on that money if you save/ invest it elsewhere for the next decade or so if you didn't do this, and then what could you earn from in retirement from the money. Also your state pension will be frozen in Thailand. So less clear cut, but it's a reasonable safety net.

Is it worth to back pay missing 6 years?

Similar sort of calcs to above, given you won't have enough years for the full pension

If someone was a long way from retirement or risks paying more than the required 35 years of contributions then it may be worth waiting a while before starting payments. That's not your case though

Cheers

Fletch

Edited February 5, 2016 by fletchsmile

[ianwuk]

Paid 3 years I think. Actually, my mum paid them without telling me, bless her. But missing about 30 years. I am 53 now. Don't suppose it is possible to pay the missing years (and yes I could afford it - just) or even worth it?

Garry, this is what I am trying to do too.

Start off by reading the attached form and go from there.

Regards.

Ian

That's the best way forward really. Read the leaflet and then complete the form. What you complete on the form at the end will also drive what you are able to do next, when they respond, including whether you are able to pay the cheaper class 2 or can only pay the more expensive 3.

Filing the form in doesn't commit you to anything. When you get their response that will help you to assess what you want to do next.

The other things you probably want to do which compliment this if not done already are:

1) Get a pension to show how many qualifying years you have

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-statement

2) Check your NI contribution records

https://www.gov.uk/check-national-insurance-record

Cheers

Fletch

Hello Fletch.

I completed the form for a pension statement. I will send that and NI38 (voluntary NI contributions form) on Sunday.

I already got a National Insurance statement using the second link you gave. The results of that is what prompted this topic in the first place

Many thanks.

Ian

[whitedesire]

Ian

Probably what I have to say has already been said. But here goes.

You can now online check your NI history record, but you need a UK credit record and address I suspect and there's no way round it, but you may have a credit record etc in the UK. It's only recently started. www.tax.service.gov.uk/checkmystatepension

"They" will let you pay previous years, I think in some cases up to 9 years. I think you can also pay monthly or weekly, I suspect direct debit. Best done from UK bank account.

From April this year (2016), the new style pension takes effect and is more simpler. As you probably know, up to this date, the additional SERPs/S2P was added to your pension and is being abolished From this date, your pension will be froze and known as your "foundation amount". Anything you have earned to date with your state pension you will not lose.

It will be simple, from April 2016, you will need 35 years contributions.

But .... it gets a little complicated from what I am going to say now.

A word of advice (and this is in years time), don't overpay NI contributions. Once you have paid contributions up the the maximum of £155 per week mark (that's today's rate of course), it doesn't make any difference how many more years you pay, you won't get any more money. Under the current pension scheme, you can, some people have earned a lot of additional pension currently with the SERPs/S2P. All that is ending.

Check your pension each year and make sure you have the 35 years in (although as I said, it maybe that you don't need that many years if you reach the maximum weekly pension which I discussed above). I think you will be surprised how much you have accrued already in your state pension with the additional pension the government give or have given you i.e. the SERPs/S2P.

[worrab]

Do not believe that 30 years payments will give you maximum pension. Things have changed drastically recently with the new pension coming into force. I thought the same thing in so much as I would get the reckoned maximum figure of £150 a week. Wrong!! After asking them for a quote last summer before moving here, I am only entitled to around £130 a week. Even on their breakdown of how it is calculated, I am totally baffled after paying in for over 30 years. I retired last year at 60 and will have to wait until I am 66 to start receiving this pension.

[condobrit001]

Amazed why the OP is requesting this information from a bunch of bar stool jockeys and know it all's.

Ask HMRC and be guided by them!

[sometimewoodworker]

Hello.

I had a very quick look at Nationwide International. There list of accounts offered all seem to require a heavy minimum investment first (understandable) which I do not have.

http://www.nationwideinternational.com/accounts/accounts_sterling_glance.htm

Thanks.

Ian

Really!!

You forgot to scroll down

You don't have £1

Instant Access savings account - competitive interest rates with convenient access

A straightforward savings account that combines security and flexibility allowing you immediate access to your savings

You can open an Instant Access account with as little as £1 and pay money in or take money out whenever you want

Interest on closure option allowing you to choose exactly when you want to receive your interest

Monthly interest option for those requiring a regular income from their investment

Edited February 5, 2016 by sometimewoodworker

[sometimewoodworker]

Do not believe that 30 years payments will give you maximum pension. Things have changed drastically recently with the new pension coming into force. I thought the same thing in so much as I would get the reckoned maximum figure of £150 a week. Wrong!! After asking them for a quote last summer before moving here, I am only entitled to around £130 a week. Even on their breakdown of how it is calculated, I am totally baffled after paying in for over 30 years. I retired last year at 60 and will have to wait until I am 66 to start receiving this pension.

If you're entitled to £130 it means that you have 30 qualifying years.

The intent to increase to needing 35 qualifying years was announced over 3 year ago. You can still make voluntary contributions to add the missing 5 years.

And unless you are in bad health it is a very good idea as the break even is only 5 years.

[nahkit]

Do not believe that 30 years payments will give you maximum pension. Things have changed drastically recently with the new pension coming into force. I thought the same thing in so much as I would get the reckoned maximum figure of £150 a week. Wrong!! After asking them for a quote last summer before moving here, I am only entitled to around £130 a week. Even on their breakdown of how it is calculated, I am totally baffled after paying in for over 30 years. I retired last year at 60 and will have to wait until I am 66 to start receiving this pension.

If you're entitled to £130 it means that you have 30 qualifying years.

The intent to increase to needing 35 qualifying years was announced over 3 year ago. You can still make voluntary contributions to add the missing 5 years.

And unless you are in bad health it is a very good idea as the break even is only 5 years.

They way I understand it under the new rules, the 35 years of contributions rule only affects those people who have not made any previous contributions, those who have already made contributions still only need to make 30 years of payments.

This is from the gov.uk website:

You didn’t make National Insurance contributions or get National Insurance credits before 6 April 2016

Your State Pension will be calculated entirely under the new State Pension rules.

You’ll usually need at least 10 qualifying years on your National Insurance record to get any State Pension.

You’ll need 35 qualifying years to get the full new State Pension.

You’ll get a proportion of the new State Pension if you have between 10 and 35 qualifying years.

Example

You have 20 qualifying years on your National Insurance record after 6 April 2016.

You multiply 20 qualifying years by £4.44 (which is £155.65 divided by 35).

Your new State Pension will be £88.80 per week.

Your new State Pension is more likely to be calculated in this way if you were born after the year 2000 or became a resident of the UK after 2015.

The first and the last lines read to me that 35 years is only for those just starting their contribution payments.

Edited February 5, 2016 by nahkit

[rak sa_ngop]

"I don't suppose I can set up any UK based account whilst being here in Thailand, right? They all seem to need me to be a UK resident. If I had a UK account it would be easier I suppose. I just want to start contributing to some sort of pension scheme, in the UK, whilst living and working in Thailand in case I ever decide to go back."

Yes, at your age it is always good to keep your options open. I and many others who have been long term expats are thankful that we kept up our NI contributions. 30,000 baht a month extra beer money on retirement is always welcome.

Regarding UK banks you should be able to open an offshore account with banks such as HSBC, LLoyds, Santander etc. But of course these days they make it difficult and want proof of ID, address and source of income etc.etc. But if you persevere and are patient you will succeed. All these banks will let you make UK Bacs transfers, but I am not sure if you can set up direct debits and standing orders with all of them.

Good luck, you are doing the right thing.

[GuestHouse]

Current retirment age is 67..

67-31 = 34 years

You need 30 years full years payments to be entitled to full state pension.

I'm in same boat and have 10 full years of NI contributions.

Therefore I will start paying when I am 47 and not a day sooner.

You assume that you will be allowed to pay at or after age 47.

The deal allowing back payment of NI credits is one of the best pension deals going, my advice is take the deal while you can.

[ianwuk]

Hello.

I had a very quick look at Nationwide International. There list of accounts offered all seem to require a heavy minimum investment first (understandable) which I do not have.

http://www.nationwideinternational.com/accounts/accounts_sterling_glance.htm

Thanks.

Ian

Really!!

You forgot to scroll down

You don't have £1

Instant Access savings account - competitive interest rates with convenient access

A straightforward savings account that combines security and flexibility allowing you immediate access to your savings

You can open an Instant Access account with as little as £1 and pay money in or take money out whenever you want

Interest on closure option allowing you to choose exactly when you want to receive your interest

Monthly interest option for those requiring a regular income from their investment

I did see this account. I just have to figure out how to get money from my Kasikorn bank to it for the initial deposit.

Thanks.

Ian

[ianwuk]

Another question which may be related.

Now that I am no longer in the UK, should I have been paying UK tax whilst away (e.g. filing a tax return each year?). I don't have any UK earnings any more and so I never thought about filing a UK tax return for each year that I have been away.

Many thanks.

Ian

[brewsterbudgen]

Another question which may be related.

Now that I am no longer in the UK, should I have been paying UK tax whilst away (e.g. filing a tax return each year?). I don't have any UK earnings any more and so I never thought about filing a UK tax return for each year that I have been away.

Many thanks.

Ian

As I was renting out a UK property, I completed a Self-assessment return each year, which normally resulted in a small tax refund. I sold the property 7 years ago, but they continued to send me a Self-assessment form which I completed showing my negligible interest from my UK bank account. Last year they told me I no longer needed to complete the return.

[ianwuk]

Another question which may be related.

Now that I am no longer in the UK, should I have been paying UK tax whilst away (e.g. filing a tax return each year?). I don't have any UK earnings any more and so I never thought about filing a UK tax return for each year that I have been away.

Many thanks.

Ian

As I was renting out a UK property, I completed a Self-assessment return each year, which normally resulted in a small tax refund. I sold the property 7 years ago, but they continued to send me a Self-assessment form which I completed showing my negligible interest from my UK bank account. Last year they told me I no longer needed to complete the return.

Thanks Henry.

I don't have anything like that so what does it mean for me?

Regards.

Ian

[brewsterbudgen]

Another question which may be related.

Now that I am no longer in the UK, should I have been paying UK tax whilst away (e.g. filing a tax return each year?). I don't have any UK earnings any more and so I never thought about filing a UK tax return for each year that I have been away.

Many thanks.

Ian

As I was renting out a UK property, I completed a Self-assessment return each year, which normally resulted in a small tax refund. I sold the property 7 years ago, but they continued to send me a Self-assessment form which I completed showing my negligible interest from my UK bank account. Last year they told me I no longer needed to complete the return.

Thanks Henry.

I don't have anything like that so what does it mean for me?

Regards.

Ian

Hi Ian

If they don't ask you to submit a tax return, you don't have to. You can email or call HMRC if you're concerned, but UK tax is only paid on UK income (I believe).

[ianwuk]

I am not sure I have ever been asked about it.

Edited February 5, 2016 by ianwuk

[Jonmarleesco]

You need to pay each year in full, but not necessarily all at one go. And you will be paying Class 3 contributions, not 2.

[Jonmarleesco]

You will need to pay at least one year at a time, but not all back years at the same time - just remember, though, a missed year is one you won't be able to recover. It will be Class 3 contributions, not 2. And, no, there is no need to submit an annual return while you have no UK-sourced income.

[sometimewoodworker]

I did see this account. I just have to figure out how to get money from my Kasikorn bank to it for the initial deposit.

Thanks.

Ian

Easiest and cheapest way is if you know anyone with a UK check book, give them Baht and get a check.

Otherwise talk to Nationwide explain your situation and they will setup the account with no money and it will activate when you send the initial deposit. You will need things like a certified copy of your passport.

You do not need to send money from your bank account, the money does not need to come from you, it can be from anyone.

[sometimewoodworker]

You need to pay each year in full, but not necessarily all at one go. And you will be paying Class 3 contributions, not 2.

The class 2 or 3 depends on your status when you left the UK and how long a break you have had, so it's not clear cut.

[sometimewoodworker]

Paid 3 years I think. Actually, my mum paid them without telling me, bless her. But missing about 30 years. I am 53 now. Don't suppose it is possible to pay the missing years (and yes I could afford it - just) or even worth it?

You will be able to pay enough years to get a partial if not full pension, and if you are in good health it's the best deal going.

[sometimewoodworker]

Do not believe that 30 years payments will give you maximum pension. Things have changed drastically recently with the new pension coming into force. I thought the same thing in so much as I would get the reckoned maximum figure of £150 a week. Wrong!! After asking them for a quote last summer before moving here, I am only entitled to around £130 a week. Even on their breakdown of how it is calculated, I am totally baffled after paying in for over 30 years. I retired last year at 60 and will have to wait until I am 66 to start receiving this pension.

If you're entitled to £130 it means that you have 30 qualifying years.

The intent to increase to needing 35 qualifying years was announced over 3 year ago. You can still make voluntary contributions to add the missing 5 years.

And unless you are in bad health it is a very good idea as the break even is only 5 years.

They way I understand it under the new rules, the 35 years of contributions rule only affects those people who have not made any previous contributions, those who have already made contributions still only need to make 30 years of payments.

This is from the gov.uk website:

You didnt make National Insurance contributions or get National Insurance credits before 6 April 2016

Your State Pension will be calculated entirely under the new State Pension rules.

Youll usually need at least 10 qualifying years on your National Insurance record to get any State Pension.

Youll need 35 qualifying years to get the full new State Pension.

Youll get a proportion of the new State Pension if you have between 10 and 35 qualifying years.

Example

You have 20 qualifying years on your National Insurance record after 6 April 2016.

You multiply 20 qualifying years by £4.44 (which is £155.65 divided by 35).

Your new State Pension will be £88.80 per week.

Your new State Pension is more likely to be calculated in this way if you were born after the year 2000 or became a resident of the UK after 2015.

The first and the last lines read to me that 35 years is only for those just starting their contribution payments.

That is not a correct reading.

To get the full new pension you need 35 years

for the old pension 30 years.

If you do not have enough qualify years for the new pension you can make voluntary payments

https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions/top-up-your-state-pension

[nahkit]

Do not believe that 30 years payments will give you maximum pension. Things have changed drastically recently with the new pension coming into force. I thought the same thing in so much as I would get the reckoned maximum figure of £150 a week. Wrong!! After asking them for a quote last summer before moving here, I am only entitled to around £130 a week. Even on their breakdown of how it is calculated, I am totally baffled after paying in for over 30 years. I retired last year at 60 and will have to wait until I am 66 to start receiving this pension.

If you're entitled to £130 it means that you have 30 qualifying years.

The intent to increase to needing 35 qualifying years was announced over 3 year ago. You can still make voluntary contributions to add the missing 5 years.

And unless you are in bad health it is a very good idea as the break even is only 5 years.

They way I understand it under the new rules, the 35 years of contributions rule only affects those people who have not made any previous contributions, those who have already made contributions still only need to make 30 years of payments.

This is from the gov.uk website:

You didnt make National Insurance contributions or get National Insurance credits before 6 April 2016

Your State Pension will be calculated entirely under the new State Pension rules.

Youll usually need at least 10 qualifying years on your National Insurance record to get any State Pension.

Youll need 35 qualifying years to get the full new State Pension.

Youll get a proportion of the new State Pension if you have between 10 and 35 qualifying years.

Example

You have 20 qualifying years on your National Insurance record after 6 April 2016.

You multiply 20 qualifying years by £4.44 (which is £155.65 divided by 35).

Your new State Pension will be £88.80 per week.

Your new State Pension is more likely to be calculated in this way if you were born after the year 2000 or became a resident of the UK after 2015.

The first and the last lines read to me that 35 years is only for those just starting their contribution payments.

That is not a correct reading.

To get the full new pension you need 35 years

for the old pension 30 years.

If you do not have enough qualify years for the new pension you can make voluntary payments

https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions/top-up-your-state-pension

Having gone through the government website I'm inclined to think that you're right. The annoying thing about this is that I had previously paid up 33 years worth of contributions most of which were voluntary and got a refund when they first introduced the 30 year rule. Looks like I'll have to give it them back again now at the newer, higher rate.

[ianwuk]

So here is a quick update.

I posted the NI38 form and the form to get a pension statement.

On the offchance, I also contaced a law firm here in Bangkok about this, Anglo-Thai.

They said this:

If you continue a connection ("Tie") with the UK then it remains both your domicile & residence. Therefore, if you want to remain eligible for a (full) state pension then:

• you must submit annual Self Assessment Forms; and
• pay voluntary national insurance contributions.

By 'tie' they are referring to the fact that I go back to the UK every year for ten days in December to spend Christmas with my family.

This seems more complex now. Now I am looking up how to submit my first ever self-assessment tax form.

Regards.

Ian

[KittenKong]

On the offchance, I also contaced a law firm here in Bangkok about this, Anglo-Thai.

They said this:

If you continue a connection ("Tie") with the UK then it remains both your domicile & residence. Therefore, if you want to remain eligible for a (full) state pension then:

• you must submit annual Self Assessment Forms; and
• pay voluntary national insurance contributions.

By 'tie' they are referring to the fact that I go back to the UK every year for ten days in December to spend Christmas with my family.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

Morons.

[ianwuk]

On the offchance, I also contaced a law firm here in Bangkok about this, Anglo-Thai.

They said this:

If you continue a connection ("Tie") with the UK then it remains both your domicile & residence. Therefore, if you want to remain eligible for a (full) state pension then:

• you must submit annual Self Assessment Forms; and
• pay voluntary national insurance contributions.

By 'tie' they are referring to the fact that I go back to the UK every year for ten days in December to spend Christmas with my family.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

Morons.

I also, from my limited research on this, think that this is not correct either.

I am just going to see what happens when I get a reply back to the forms I recently sent off to the UK.

Regards.

Ian

[brewsterbudgen]

On the offchance, I also contaced a law firm here in Bangkok about this, Anglo-Thai.

They said this:

If you continue a connection ("Tie") with the UK then it remains both your domicile & residence. Therefore, if you want to remain eligible for a (full) state pension then:

• you must submit annual Self Assessment Forms; and
• pay voluntary national insurance contributions.

By 'tie' they are referring to the fact that I go back to the UK every year for ten days in December to spend Christmas with my family.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

Morons.

There is certainly no requirement to complete a self-assessment tax return in order to get a state pension.

[ianwuk]

On the offchance, I also contaced a law firm here in Bangkok about this, Anglo-Thai.

They said this:

If you continue a connection ("Tie") with the UK then it remains both your domicile & residence. Therefore, if you want to remain eligible for a (full) state pension then:

• you must submit annual Self Assessment Forms; and
• pay voluntary national insurance contributions.

By 'tie' they are referring to the fact that I go back to the UK every year for ten days in December to spend Christmas with my family.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

Morons.

There is certainly no requirement to complete a self-assessment tax return in order to get a state pension.

So, now for another incredibly stupid question from me (I apologise).

I was looking up self assessment tax forms and how to file and they have a section that says that if I earn foreign income then it may need to be taxed under UK law. Is that only if you are resident to the UK and you work abroad for certain parts of the year (e.g. on an oil rig). I assume it would not apply to me? Sorry, just a little confused.

Edited February 8, 2016 by ianwuk