Aleppo: Germany and Turkey call on NATO for help with refugees

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Aleppo: Germany and Turkey call on NATO for help with refugees



- Merkel, Davotoglu call on NATO
- Both criticise Russian involvement
- 10-point plan to tackle crisis

NATO involvement

STRASBOURG: -- Turkey and Germany plan to seek help from NATO allies in monitoring the flow of migrants trying to get to Europe from Syria via Turkey and the Aegean Sea.

Angela Merkel and Ahmet Davotoglu said the matter would be officially and jointly raised at a meeting of NATO defence ministers on Thursday.

“Turkey and Germany will present to NATO, as an agenda item, that NATO should step in regarding the results of the refugee flow from Syria. In particular, we will make a common effort so that NATO’s monitoring mechanisms should be used effectively on the border and in the Aegean (sea),” Davutoglu told reporters.

Merkel’s spokesperson Steffen Seibert said on Twitter that support for the Turkish coast guard and the EU’s Frontex border agency will be discussed at a “NATO level.”

There has been no response from NATO so far.

The German Chancellor called for immediate action from Ankara to improve the refugee situation in Turkey.

Once again, Angela Merkel said refugees must be distributed fairly and evenly across the EU.

“What is, of course, important, not just for Turkey but for all of us, is that if we want to stop illegal immigration we obviously have to be ready to some extent to accept refugees by legal means, especially Syrian refugees”.

Russia criticised

The German Chancellor also said the nature of Russian military action in Syria means Moscow is in violation of the UN resolution it signed in December.

Angela Merkel says she has been “appalled and shocked” by the suffering in the Syrian city of Aleppo.

Merkel blamed this on Russian bombing raids in support of the Assad government.

“In the resolution, the Security Council demands that all sides stop attacks on civilians and civilian targets without delay, in particular the use of indiscriminate weapons such as bomb attacks from the air. It is very specific in the resolution”, she said.

Berlin and Turkey plan to convene UN-level talks about Russia’s intervention in Syria.

Turkey’s challenge in numbers
2.5 million – the number of refugees Turkey is already hosting
1.1 million – the number of refugees hosted by Germany in 2015 (“more”: https://www.iom.int/)
35,000 – the number displaced from Aleppo now gathered on the Turkish border
100,000 – the potential number politicians say could arrive
3.3 bn USD – crisis money Turkey received in November from the EU
10 bn USD – what Turkey says it has spent so far
20 bn USD – what Turkey says it might need
Turkey is facing pressure from the EU and humanitarian agencies to open its border near Aleppo.

Ankara says it is at the limit of what it can cope with, but will not turn those in need away.

Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davotoglu spoke frankly at the Syrian Donors Conference in London on 4.2.11 about the situation precipitated by the Aleppo offensive.

“No Syrian will be without shelter, security or food in Turkey. We will continue to provide support for the refugees.”, he said.

Why is Aleppo so significant?
it was the largest city in Syria before the conflict broke out.
an industrial and cultural hub with a rich history.
opposition stronghold since the start of the conflict
Experts say taking Aleppo would have strong strategic and symbolic value.

Does this mean the Syrian government has won the conflict?
No. Thousands of opposition fighters are flocking to Aleppo to defend it.
Many other areas of the country remain under rebel control.
However, experts agree Russian military involvement on behalf of the government has shifted the balance of power in the conflict.

What about the Geneva peace talks?

UN-brokered peace talks in Geneva were suspended last week after Russian military aircraft pounded Aleppo. They are set to resume on 25 February but two factors are leading to doubt:

Increasing military gains mean the government has little incentive to come to the table.
Opposition leaders say the government has acted in bad faith.
What impact is this likely to have on the refugee situation?

What they are saying

“Turkey has spent ten billion dollars for refugees in the camps alone and will continue to keep its doors open to everyone fleeing oppression, regardless of their ethnic, religious or sectarian background.” – Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davotoglu, speaking at Syrian donors conference in London 4.2.16)


-- (c) Copyright Euronews 2016-02-09

[craigt3365]

How about having Russia help out. It's their bombs that are creating this mess.

[Saradoc1972]

We have managed to put ourselves fully at the mercy of an autocratic figure like Erdogan.

3 billion Euro? Yes, per year. Or else. Article in The Guardian

And accession-talks with the EU. Ridiculous, this has been going for 20 years and not been suspended for nothing.

So much for the European Union as a global player in politics, Euro or not.

But it won't matter. When Turkey finally forces its way into the EU, the latter will just go boom anyway.

[jaidam]

How on earth can Merkel ask for help? She got exactly what she wanted. She wanted to dilute the German people,their resolve and pride to allow draconian state control, solidifying her power going forwards, and pleasing her fellow globalist elites. She did this by wholesale importing a mass of people that hate everything Germany is and stands for with every fiber of their body. Sensible Germans that would vote to save their freedom, democratic lifestyles and culture are now outnumbered by foreign leeches and fools so there is no chance of common sense at the ballot box. All very sad, but she won. She got exactly what she wanted. Help? Help??? How insulting.

[SgtRock]

The desperation that Merkel is now displaying is obvious for all to see. She should be removed from her position as soon as possible.

She has asked for NATO help. NATO have not responded.

Hardly surprising as refugees is not NATO's remit.

However this could be a tacit way of Merkel saying what has been previously called a Refugee / Asylum Seeker / Migrant issue can no longer be called this and is in fact, an illegal invasion by a civilian force intent on the destruction of civil society.

Interesting times lie ahead.

[Grouse]

Obvious answer is no fly zone enforced by NATO as far South as Aleppo

Fixed

[SgtRock]

Grouse, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:56, said:

Obvious answer is no fly zone enforced by NATO as far South as Aleppo

Fixed

And this will help stem the flow of refugees, who are coming mainly from Turkey by boat how ?

[Saradoc1972]

Grouse, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:56, said:

Obvious answer is no fly zone enforced by NATO as far South as Aleppo

Fixed

And this will help stem the flow of refugees, who are coming mainly from Turkey by boat how ?

In that they won't matter anymore because then we have a direct confrontation with Russia.

Russia has sworn to stand by Assad because it's they direct link to some oil and gas-fields down there and hinted at the

potential of a NATO engagement turning nuclear when Obama drew the red lines he then never bothered about.

The Russians had seen it once when their former ally Libya suddenly got attacked by NATO, they'll not stand for it again.

[NeverSure]

NATO? Now, we don't want the United States interfering in anyone else's business now. Ain't that what I keep hearing?

Enforce a no fly zone against Russia? You, and who's army?

Europe made this mess and they can clean it up. It isn't as if Russia is invading NATO allies.

Shove it, Merkel.

[Saradoc1972]

The desperation that Merkel is now displaying is obvious for all to see. She should be removed from her position as soon as possible.

She has asked for NATO help. NATO have not responded.

Hardly surprising as refugees is not NATO's remit.

However this could be a tacit way of Merkel saying what has been previously called a Refugee / Asylum Seeker / Migrant issue can no longer be called this and is in fact, an illegal invasion by a civilian force intent on the destruction of civil society.

Interesting times lie ahead.

Germany and Turkey can both call for consultations of NATO under Art. 4, when territorial integrity, political independence, or security of a member state is threatened.

In so far this refugee business might be a NATO remit, it's along the lines of what you say. I don't know how NATO will come into play here, but calling this affair an emergency of that sort of magnitude might be a step in the right direction, because it is. And maybe NATO can deliver an understanding the EU has failed to deliver with every single state looking after itself.

[Grouse]

Grouse, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:56, said:

Obvious answer is no fly zone enforced by NATO as far South as Aleppo

Fixed

And this will help stem the flow of refugees, who are coming mainly from Turkey by boat how ?

Please keep up

Refugees are fleeing Suria because of Russian bombing

No fly zone would fix that and enable camps within Syria

[baboon]

Some character, this Mrs. Merkel: Invite throngs of unwanted migrants to Germany and Europe in the face of vehement public opposition and then present the same furious public with the bill. That takes some nerve...

YOU wanted it, YOU got it. Get stuffed.

[Grouse]

NATO? Now, we don't want the United States interfering in anyone else's business now. Ain't that what I keep hearing?

Enforce a no fly zone against Russia? You, and who's army?

Europe made this mess and they can clean it up. It isn't as if Russia is invading NATO allies.

Shove it, Merkel.

Best way to handle a bully is to face him down

No fly zone is best solution but I would not scrap Trident right now

If the yanks don't have the balls, EU and Turkey can do it

[SgtRock]

Saradoc1972, on 09 Feb 2016 - 12:16, said:

SgtRock, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:50, said:

The desperation that Merkel is now displaying is obvious for all to see. She should be removed from her position as soon as possible.

She has asked for NATO help. NATO have not responded.

Hardly surprising as refugees is not NATO's remit.

However this could be a tacit way of Merkel saying what has been previously called a Refugee / Asylum Seeker / Migrant issue can no longer be called this and is in fact, an illegal invasion by a civilian force intent on the destruction of civil society.

Interesting times lie ahead.

Germany and Turkey can both call for consultations of NATO under Art. 4, when territorial integrity, political independence, or security of a member state is threatened.

In so far this refugee business might be a NATO remit, it's along the lines of what you say. I don't know how NATO will come into play here, but calling this affair an emergency of that sort of magnitude might be a step in the right direction, because it is. And maybe NATO can deliver an understanding the EU has failed to deliver with every single state looking after itself.

Yes, they can call for a consultation under Article 4. Which to me seems ridiculous as Merkel extended the invitation.

Article 5 speaks specifically of armed attack on NATO members.

Lessons have been learned, some better than others. There are many ways to skin a cat and armed attack are not necessary in this day and age. You can bear witness to that every day.

NATO will not get involved, just like they did not get involved when Turkey went running last year over Russian planes.

[SgtRock]

Grouse, on 09 Feb 2016 - 12:21, said:

SgtRock, on 09 Feb 2016 - 12:04, said:

Grouse, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:56, said:

Grouse, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:56, said:

Obvious answer is no fly zone enforced by NATO as far South as Aleppo

Fixed

And this will help stem the flow of refugees, who are coming mainly from Turkey by boat how ?

Please keep up

Refugees are fleeing Suria because of Russian bombing

No fly zone would fix that and enable camps within Syria

I think you are the one that needs to keep up.

The topic is about refugees, particularly in Germany. Who are arriving on EU shores, predominantly from Turkey.

Russian bombing ? As 65 - 70% of the refugees are not from Syria, can you tell us all where these secret Russian bombing raids are happening ?

There are already refugee camps in Syria. How strange that you do not know this.

[Thorgal]

Latest exodus form Aleppo is based on multiple tunnel bombs used by FSA and IS franchise. Moreover, tunnel boring equipment is used which wasn't purchased before the civil war by Syrian national or private companies.

It has little or nothing to do with Syrian or Russian aircrafts. Russian military intervention was in the first time concentrated on striking ammunition depots, HQ's, training facilities and strategic and logistic assets. Also besieged Syrian Army frontlines and positions were liberated through air strikes.

Many rebel cities and citizens are now besieged. Citizens are requested to evacuated. Humanitarian aid is provided.

EU, UN and NATO should use the sovereign Syrian territory of the Golan Heights as refugee transit zone. From what I understood is that field hospitals are already operational...but not for refugees.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Thorgal

[craigt3365]

NATO? Now, we don't want the United States interfering in anyone else's business now. Ain't that what I keep hearing?

Enforce a no fly zone against Russia? You, and who's army?

Europe made this mess and they can clean it up. It isn't as if Russia is invading NATO allies.

Shove it, Merkel.

US involvement with NATO is waning a bit. They are pivoting towards Asia and telling Europe they need to deal with these things on their own. Libya was an excellent example of this.

[craigt3365]

Latest exodus form Aleppo is based on multiple tunnel bombs used by FSA and IS franchise. Moreover, tunnel boring equipment is used which wasn't purchased before the civil war by Syrian national or private companies.

It has little or nothing to do with Syrian or Russian aircrafts. Russian military intervention was in the first time concentrated on striking ammunition depots, HQ's, training facilities and strategic and logistic assets. Also besieged Syrian Army frontlines and positions were liberated through air strikes.

Many rebel cities and citizens are now besieged. Citizens are requested to evacuated. Humanitarian aid is provided.

EU, UN and NATO should use the sovereign Syrian territory of the Golan Heights as refugee transit zone. From what I understood is that field hospitals are already operational...but not for refugees.

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1454996484.259223.jpg

You're obviously getting your info from the wrong sources. Russia, with the help of Syria, is bombing these areas with increased action. I read up to 1,000 sorties over just a few days. Obviously, this creates a humanitarian disaster. But one I'm sure Russia will deal with when it's all over. Helping to rebuild, etc.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/02/report-russia-daily-cluster-bomb-attacks-syria-160208134126502.html

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d708662a-ce7f-11e5-92a1-c5e23ef99c77.html#axzz3zeLcmzAB

This forecast is scary:

http://news.sky.com/story/1637674/russian-bombing-takes-its-toll-on-syrians

If it falls and the opposition to Assad is wiped out, then the country will be ruled by two powers: President Assad and Islamic State.

The terror group will doubtless benefit from being the sole voice of opposition in the region representing Sunnis. Perversely they could become more powerful.

Of course Russia would likely target them. But their way of doing things is to attack everything. I was in Chechnya when they did exactly the same.

Congrats to Russia for making things worse than ever.

[SgtRock]

Congrats to Russia for making things worse than ever.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Do not forget how and why the Russians are in Syria. At the direct request of Assad, who, contrary to popular belief is still the legitimate power in Syria.

Syria was a humanitarian disaster before the Russians came on the scene.

[wabothai]

NATO? Now, we don't want the United States interfering in anyone else's business now. Ain't that what I keep hearing?

Enforce a no fly zone against Russia? You, and who's army?

Europe made this mess and they can clean it up. It isn't as if Russia is invading NATO allies.

Shove it, Merkel.

I think you confuse Merkel with Europe.

[Grouse]

Grouse, on 09 Feb 2016 - 12:21, said:

SgtRock, on 09 Feb 2016 - 12:04, said:

Grouse, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:56, said:

Grouse, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:56, said:

Obvious answer is no fly zone enforced by NATO as far South as Aleppo

Fixed

And this will help stem the flow of refugees, who are coming mainly from Turkey by boat how ?

Please keep up

Refugees are fleeing Suria because of Russian bombing

No fly zone would fix that and enable camps within Syria

I think you are the one that needs to keep up.

The topic is about refugees, particularly in Germany. Who are arriving on EU shores, predominantly from Turkey.

Russian bombing ? As 65 - 70% of the refugees are not from Syria, can you tell us all where these secret Russian bombing raids are happening ?

There are already refugee camps in Syria. How strange that you do not know this.

Topic is about REFUGEES coming from Syria via Turkey? ( as opposed to economic migrants from N Africa)

A no fly zone would enable a safe area of temporary refuge

Most recent flight is due to Russian bombing of civilian areas

That's why Turkey is involved

Did I misunderstand something?

Please enlighten me!

[Grouse]

Looks to me that both Rubio and Hilary also favour a no fly zone

Russia is bombing the people the West favours

Are we too scared of the Russians? Turkey isn't.

Seems the right thing to do for many reasons

[craigt3365]

Congrats to Russia for making things worse than ever.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Do not forget how and why the Russians are in Syria. At the direct request of Assad, who, contrary to popular belief is still the legitimate power in Syria.

Syria was a humanitarian disaster before the Russians came on the scene.

From Assad's point of view, things are going great. From the Syrian people's point of view, it's a disaster. Of epic proportions. With all of Europe paying the price for it.

Assad is perhaps the legitimate power in Syria. Some argue he's not, but yes, he's the dictator in charge. Rigged voting. Not a popular vote.

And right on. Syria's been a disaster off and on for years. Dictators have a tendency to make things worse, not better.

[SgtRock]

craigt3365, on 09 Feb 2016 - 15:04, said:

SgtRock, on 09 Feb 2016 - 13:46, said:

Quote

Congrats to Russia for making things worse than ever.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Do not forget how and why the Russians are in Syria. At the direct request of Assad, who, contrary to popular belief is still the legitimate power in Syria.

Syria was a humanitarian disaster before the Russians came on the scene.

From Assad's point of view, things are going great. From the Syrian people's point of view, it's a disaster. Of epic proportions. With all of Europe paying the price for it.

Assad is perhaps the legitimate power in Syria. Some argue he's not, but yes, he's the dictator in charge. Rigged voting. Not a popular vote.

And right on. Syria's been a disaster off and on for years. Dictators have a tendency to make things worse, not better.

Dictators have a tendency to make things worse, rather than better ?

I will give you 3.

Quaddafi

Hussein

Assad.

Where the majority of people were quite happy before the West interfered.

The one thing that collective Western powers need to get into their thick skulls is that their version of democracy is not suitable for everyone.

There is a very good reason these Countries functioned reasonably well when they were under a dictatorship.

[Rancid]

Lots of viewpoints about Syria. When Aleppo falls that will be a major blow to ISIS and their Sunni supporters in Turkey and Saudi. Even the Israelis have now come out and stated that Turkey has been financing ISIS all along through oil and allowing them to cross their borders.

Find it irrational that the Russians are getting blamed now for the refugees, if ISIS had never been backed by the West (including Europe) for regime change then there would have been no refugee problem to begin with. But better to ignore that I suppose.

No fly zone, that's what they did to Libya illegally to create that disaster, so repeat the same thing again for a good result this time then? Hmm, let's start shooting down Russian jets, isn't that ah, called declaring war?

Kerry when asked about the Syrian opposition getting their butts handed to them, suggested that the US was not interested in going to war with Russia over it, Hilary would have a different view of course.

Seems the UK is now training war games for a NATO conflict with Russia, appears delusions of empire are slow to fade. If NATO really does somehow insanely want a war sure wouldn't want to be living in Europe.

One thing for sure is that there will be no winners in a war with a real opponent in Russia as opposed to the usual mediocre ME countries.

If tactical nukes actually got exchanged would the US also unleash icbms and make itself a nuclear target or keep things localised to the then radioactive Europeans?

[craigt3365]

craigt3365, on 09 Feb 2016 - 15:04, said:

SgtRock, on 09 Feb 2016 - 13:46, said:

Quote

Congrats to Russia for making things worse than ever.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Do not forget how and why the Russians are in Syria. At the direct request of Assad, who, contrary to popular belief is still the legitimate power in Syria.

Syria was a humanitarian disaster before the Russians came on the scene.

From Assad's point of view, things are going great. From the Syrian people's point of view, it's a disaster. Of epic proportions. With all of Europe paying the price for it.

Assad is perhaps the legitimate power in Syria. Some argue he's not, but yes, he's the dictator in charge. Rigged voting. Not a popular vote.

And right on. Syria's been a disaster off and on for years. Dictators have a tendency to make things worse, not better.

Dictators have a tendency to make things worse, rather than better ?

I will give you 3.

Quaddafi

Hussein

Assad.

Where the majority of people were quite happy before the West interfered.

The one thing that collective Western powers need to get into their thick skulls is that their version of democracy is not suitable for everyone.

There is a very good reason these Countries functioned reasonably well when they were under a dictatorship.

I seriously doubt the majority of the people were happy. It's the reason for the Arab Spring Uprisings. Discontent with their rulers. It's been going on for years. Even in Syria. This isn't the first time.

One of the reasons for the uprisings were the problems the majority were having with their government. Considering their rank in the corruption index, and how their economy ranks globally. I don't think any of these countries have done very well under a dictatorship. I don't know of any that have.

[Grouse]

The Russians need to protect their enclave at Latakia just like Kalingrad. Note they are already enforcing no fly zones with SA400 missile systems and probably tactical nuclear weapons (Iskander launched probably)

Putin has to be faced down like Hitler and more recently Yeltsin

We need to ENFORCE a no fly zone in the north of Syria. Give it to Turkmen Sunnis if you like.

Let Assad keep a rump of Syria in the SW

Then really demolish the IS <deleted> W*ts

This would resolve the refugee exodus at a stroke

We have the capability to do this. I bet there is an Astute class off shore now

Mind you the super power election is underway and I bet none of them, except Hillary, knows where the places mentioned above are!

Edited February 9, 2016 by Grouse

[Scott]

No fly zones are not as easy to enforce as it might seem. In Syria there are serious challenges to having a no fly zone. First, is there any reason to believe that Russia would adhere to a no fly zone? I very much doubt it. If Russia set it up, I have a feeling NATO would adhere to it, but NATO is not in a position to try to enforce it.

The second problem is that refugee camps do not usually contain a homogeneous group of people. There will be Muslims, Christians, Assad supporters, ISIS supporters, AQ supporters, Shiites, Sunnis and various other religions, groups and factions. Refugee camps are places where enemy combatants of all stripes will hide and recruit. As such, they are subject to military action. Do you think that if Russia or Assad think that the enemy is in the camps that they won't bomb them? If they are inside of Syria, then it is sovereign territory.

Refugee camps need to be well within the borders of a second country. Even the safe havens that were set up in Srebrenicia proved to be a major disaster, resulting in a quick and easy genocide.

Inside of Northern Iraq there was a refugee camp for Turkish Kurds fleeing the insurgency in Turkey. The camp was manned by UN personnel as well as NGOs. At the time, northern Iraq was under a no fly zone, but it did not prevent the Turks from pursuing PKK rebels into Northern Iraq and periodically bombing the refugee camp.

If all parties can agree to a no fly zone, it's certainly worth a try, but I wouldn't hold out a lot of promise that it would be successful or that it will stem the flow of refugees.

[Doc46]

No sympathy on this end,,,They created their their own disaster,,now they want help,,Should have Kept the Borders Closed,, Amen,,

[NeverSure]

NATO? Now, we don't want the United States interfering in anyone else's business now. Ain't that what I keep hearing?

Enforce a no fly zone against Russia? You, and who's army?

Europe made this mess and they can clean it up. It isn't as if Russia is invading NATO allies.

Shove it, Merkel.

Best way to handle a bully is to face him down

No fly zone is best solution but I would not scrap Trident right now

If the yanks don't have the balls, EU and Turkey can do it

"If the yanks don't have the balls, EU and Turkey can do it"

If the Yanks don't have the balls? When did the US ever back down from a fight? It's simply not the US's problem. Europe did this to themselves and it's not an armed conflict against a common enemy.

Hypocrites. The same puzzy Europeans who criticize the US for interfering in worldwide affairs are the first to call on NATO for help when they flack things up because their ways are 'better than', 'more PC than' and 'more civilized than'.

Europe is crashing under its own weight economically and politically and now socially. My father was at D Day. Don't ask me for any more when you flack things up over there again. And again.

Cheers.