Mental Health And Medicine

[Pattayatony]

Sobe you might try to understand that the sort of people who are sent for ECT are in the psychiatric equivalent of critical condition. Their life is likely too horrible to comprehend, not only not worth living but an unimaginable torture. Death may be the only worthwhile alternative for these people.

not buying it ..... most of these people are now suffering from the side effects from years of this poison . Most of these people if they had a few years with all of the drugs out of their system they would be 1000% better ask meom who was poisoned with Haldol , Fluphenazine, Trilafon and Lithium ... my god !!!!! ( good job by the way meom)

For the most part these drugs are a substitute for peoples time if a person has someone to spend time and work with them so much can be done . The pill is the quick fix and the pharmaceutical companies are running the health care biz now . This is big money drug reps is the Dr.'s office passing out the latest drug telling the Dr, about the free trips and gifts that await if he sells enough of the stuff , filling their closets with mountains of samples ... trust me the whole thing is out of control in the US and it sounds like Thailand has been spared this insanity so far , probably because the people are not able to spend the hundreds of $$ these medications cost .

Try watching the news in the US and see how long it takes before you see some drug advertised on TV. This practice of allowing drug companies to advertise patented chemicals directly to consumers in order to create demand for drugs that everyday people frankly do not understand. Every country in the world bans the practice of Direct-To-Consumer (DTC) drug advertising... except the United States, of course, where consumers are subjected to a never-ending barrage of ridiculous drug ads showing happy, healthy people popping purple pills they would never consume in real life. Of all industrialized nations in the world, only the U.S. (with the ever-caring support of the Food and Drug Administration) endorses drug madvertising .

All of these Fictitious disease's - A fabricated disease invented for the sole purpose of creating a new market for patented drugs. ADHD is the prime example of a fictitious disease, and the psychiatric community is now well-practiced at labeling human behaviors "brain chemistry imbalances that need to be treated with chemicals."

"Today’s patients, discontented, unhappy, fragmented and confused by an increasingly frantic, alienating and violent society, come to psychiatrists for help, only to have their illusions shored up by an increased dose of a technologic fix. They are told they have illnesses that are biologic and can be fixed, instead of being allowed to speak about their unhappiness, to speak about how difficult it is to be a human being, to speak about their suffering, because human beings have always suffered and always will. To believe that we can conquer depression, despair, anxiety with modern technology is the height of hubris and bad faith, a mere childish fantasy, unworthy of any thoughtful person who has their eyes open to human history and modern culture."

– David Kaiser, M.D. Northwestern University Hospital, Chicago, IL, Psychiatric Medications as Symptoms,

"No biological etiology has been proven for any psychiatric disorder in spite of decades of research. ... Don't accept the myth that we can make an 'accurate diagnosis.' ... Neither should you believe that your problems are due solely to a 'chemical imbalance.'"

Edward Drummond, M.D. Associate Medical Director, Seacoast Mental Health Center, Portsmouth, NH

In the US we now have a social trend towards not holding people responsible for their behavior was perhaps the necessary consequence of science "discovering" that, one by one, every form of ill conduct or unpleasant experience was the manifestation of a "disease." Of course, science can discover no such thing; rather, it can only define behaviors as diseases. The official compendium of "mental illnesses," the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, owes its contents not to laboratory discoveries, but to the votes of psychologists and psychiatrists. To put this in perspective, try to imagine a committee of oncologists voting on whether or not lymphoma is a disease. That is exactly how psychiatry proceeds. The process yields predictably absurd results: one year homosexuality is a disease; the next year, it is not, but "caffeine addiction" is; and "substance abuse disorders" are miraculously discovered which mirror perfectly the drug laws. Examples of such obvious nonsense could be (and are) multiplied without end. The normativity of all of this – the fact that psychiatric diagnoses are judgment, taste, opinion, and name-calling, and nothing more – is hidden behind a dense barrage of impenetrable pseudoscientific babble. We are subjected to advertisements depicting sad, anergic neurotransmitter molecules plodding slowly across the synapse, and told that "depression is medical condition, and a chemical imbalance may be to blame." After treatment with Zoloft®, we watch perky, rejuvenated transmitter molecules merrily doing laps across the synaptic space. Contemplating the fact that most people actually believe this hogwash is almost enough to make one reach for antidepressant drugs oneself.

Yea so far Thailand has been spared the insanity that is going on in the US so maybe that is so many over there are smiling even the people living in poverty .. while in the US if some housewife living in a $600K house in the suburbs has too much laundry to do she runs to her shrink and gets him to give her the latest antidepressant she just saw advertised on TV that is stuffed in the closet of her psychiatrists office by the drug rep who was just there with lunch and free gifts .

All I can say about this is BURP

[sobe]

Used improperly or unnecessarily, they will cause problems.

In the US the shrinks are not just over prescribing antidepressants , but also antipsychotics   , mood stabilizers, tranquilizers, adhd meds(amphetamines  ) and major tranquilizers . wanted to give the poster a heads up so he gets the full story and can make a decision what to do and take with the most knowledge at hand . Also bring up the fact that the reason so many Thai's are probably happy is they are forced to find real ways to deal with problems in life and do not have huge numbers of psychiatrist in the country passing out pills every time someone has a problem like in the states .

I have been in AA for 20 years and see many people when life gets tough walk into a shrinks office and always they seem to come out with drugs that in the long run make them much worse and take the urgency away from fixing the real cause of their problem . The pill has a way of masking the symptoms but not fixing the problem , but I do encourage the poster to go to a Dr. but be well informed when he goes so he can ask the right questions and have his guard up . Maybe that is not needed with the Dr.'s in Thailand but in the states it is .

And now maybe there is a little information in this thread that will be thought provoking for others .

I PMed the poster a Psychiatrist name phone number and email , so i am not against seeing a Dr. but the more you know when you walk in the better .

[Mr Jones]

One doc I know was having a pharmacy built in his practice of 6 doctors, he remarked a fcuken travel agent would be better.

[John K]

In summary I think the following can be established from the posts in this thread.

1) your body has the ability to produce hormones that can effect your moods. Certain activities produce the positive or feel good hormones. There are zero negative physical side effects to producing them internally.

2) Your body also has the ability to produce negative hormones. Certain activities or lack of activities that produce positive hormones cause this buildup. Some negative hormones related to stress can promote premature aging.

3) Medication to modify a persons mental state a greatly over prescribed. Only people who’s body can not produce the necessary positive hormones as a result of illness, injury, or birth defect should be prescribed long term medication.

4) There is proof that medications that effect a persons mental state can relieve the symptoms of depression. The cause is unaffected by the medication. Only if the cause is just a temporary situation that will go away on it’s own, then the medication makes the wait more tolerable.

5)Anything introduced into the body has side effects. That includes food. A chemists job is not to find medicines that work, their job is to find one with an acceptable level of side effects.

6) The OP should try to produce the positive hormones on his own by engaging in more physical activity. If the OP is not successful then professional help should be sought.

7) Medication is a synonym for drugs but drugs is not a synonym for medication.

[sriracha john]

with slight additions

4) The cause of most cases of major depression is a chemical imbalance within the brain. The utilization of anti-depressants directly addresses this deficiency. Less severe forms of depression in the form of adjustment disorders or situational reactions are of shorter duration and most often can be treated without the use of anti-depressants.

6) Based on his symptomology, the OP should seek a consultation with a medical doctor, preferably a psychiatrist, without delay as they indicate a level of depression that is unlikely to be resolved on his own.

[meom]

with slight additions

4) The cause of most cases of major depression is a chemical imbalance within the brain. The utilization of anti-depressants directly addresses this deficiency.

Bit like a leaking fuel tank really where you add a whole lot of fuel in order to prevent the tank from emptying itself until somebody explains you how to fix the leak

[John K]

with slight additions

4) The cause of most cases of major depression is a chemical imbalance within the brain. The utilization of anti-depressants directly addresses this deficiency. Less severe forms of depression in the form of adjustment disorders or situational reactions are of shorter duration and most often can be treated without the use of anti-depressants.

6) Based on his symptomology, the OP should seek a consultation with a medical doctor, preferably a psychiatrist, without delay as they indicate a level of depression that is unlikely to be resolved on his own.

Antidepressants actually dull the brain. Simply put your life becomes vanilla. They keep you from getting depressed, but they also keep you from becoming manic. People who are on such medications are prohibited from some jobs because it dulls the senses. Some aerospace jobs will not have you particularly if you are an engineer or in quality control. Pilots are grounded as well. But some medications for hypertension will get you off the job too in the above professions.

If it takes you 10 beers to get drunk, think of it as 3 or 4 beers without getting intoxicated. This is how it has been describe to me by a few people. Although the link in post #35 comes across as a type of propaganda, there are certain truths that cant be denied.

Related to the OP, I feel some triggers have been hit that setoff the reaction. The need to identify what they are and resolve them would be the plan of action taken. Triggers can be from any of the senses. Simply he was reminded of some part of his past by something (trigger). In the OP’s post it was a phrase.

Often childhood experiences can be a problem, but it is unknown if that is the case here. The young mind lacks the experience to understand and resolve the problem or situation. As the child ages the memory changes (morphing) and continues to grow along with the child. It remains just as difficult to resolve. Eventually the memory becomes repressed only brought out by a trigger. This needs to be resolved to break the cycle of remember then repress. Psychotherapy becomes a very long and drawn out process peeling away one thing at a time and analyzing it from every possible side. Eventually things will be sorted out but it is dealing with the morphed memory. Hypnotherapy has the discovery tool of ‘age regression’ to recall the original memory before it morphed. Once the original memory is recalled the now adult mind draws on the resources it now has to resolve the problem. I have seen problems get resolved in as little as 5 seconds with that method.

I think going for the big guns should be a last resort. A psychologist and psychiatrist are equally qualified in sorting things out. The one difference is one can and will give you drugs and the other wont. If a psychologist or hypnotherapist feels you need medication, they will gladly refer you to a psychiatrist to evaluate you.

Countries with nukes only pull them out as a last resort. Medications for mental health should be used with the same wisdom.

[sobe]

sriracha john

The cause of most cases of major depression is a chemical imbalance within the brain. The utilization of anti-depressants directly addresses this deficiency.

Wrong .... the hypothetical disturbances of neurochemical function that are said to underlie "mental illness" are just that: hypothetical. No experiment has ever shown that anyone has an "imbalance" of any neurotransmitters or any other brain chemicals. Sorry sriracha john but there are no test that prove this it is only hypothetical. no conclusive medical test exist to prove this Nor could any conceivable experiment demonstrate the existence of a "chemical imbalance," simply because no one, least of all the biopsychiatrists, has the slightest idea what a proper and healthy chemical "balance" would look like. This is an extremely important to keep in mind . Contrary to popular belief, stories in the popular media, and pharmaceutical industry advertising, there is no evidence at all that serotonergic transmission is impaired in depressed persons. Neurons use serotonin as their substrate for a myriad of mental phenomena, both conscious and unconscious. There is no reason to believe that what we call "mood" is controlled by one specific neurotransmitter; and in fact, there is every reason to believe that it is not. Pharmacologic disruption of serotonin re-uptake appears most unlikely to selectively impact mood.

In contemporary culture, it is not uncommon for someone to return from a visit to the doctor with a prescription for an "antidepressant" drug and the notion that the doctor has diagnosed some kind of "chemical imbalance" in the extremely delicate process of neurotransmitter metabolism and release. Medical diagnoses are generally backed up by empirical facts: infection may be diagnosed when the patient has a fever and a high white blood cell count. Hyperthyroidism may be diagnosed by measuring circulating levels of thyroid hormones. Heart disease may be diagnosed by angioscopic visualization. How are the chemical imbalances which are the supposed basis for the prescription of "antidepressants" diagnosed? Is exploratory neurosurgery performed, using some technique that allows the surgeon to quantify synaptic transmitter levels? No, the very idea is absurd. Is a spinal tap, then, done to at least measure, on a gross scale, the distribution of neurotransmitter metabolites? Of course not – how many people have undergone spinal taps before receiving a prescription for Effexor®? Is blood at least drawn, to test something? No. This diagnosis – the diagnosis of the most subtle of chemical disorders in the most complex organ in the body – is made on the basis of the patient's report of feeling sad and lethargic. Try to imagine a hematologist diagnosing leukemia this way to get a sense of just how ridiculous this idea is. The latest edition of one pharmacology text has this to say about the status of depression as a disease: "Despite extensive efforts, attempts to document the metabolic changes in human subjects predicted by these [biological] hypotheses have not, on balance, provided consistent or compelling corroboration." This is a long-winded way of admitting that not even a scrap of evidence supports the idea that depression results from a "chemical imbalance." Yet patients are told every day – by their doctors, by the media, and by drug company advertising – that it is a proven scientific fact that depression has a known biochemical origin.

Even if there were such evidence of the existence of these things, how could one fail to notice that doctors do not test for anything at all in making the diagnosis of "clinical depression" or any other "mental illness?" The principal difference between medical and psychiatric diseases is this: medical diseases are discovered, generally through scientific research.

sriracha john you can not talk about chemical imbalance in the brain unless there are test for this and at this moment there are none , you can say Dr.'s may think there are chemical imbalances but right now there are no conclusive test that can prove this and that is exactly why this stuff is so dangerous if there are no test to show chemical imbalance then there is no real way to prove the effectivness in correcting these so called chemical imbalances after the drugs are given . I hope you are clear on that now . If you know of some conclusive test that show chemical imbalances please tell us about them .

[sobe]

Thanks, IJWT.

While reading the previous post, I was debating whether or not to answer the off-topic rubbish with extensive factual data or just decide to let it go as it was so completely inaccurate, recklessly dangerous, and off-topic.

Thanks for helping me to decide.

you have no extensive factual data if you did you would post it but it does not exist , so you will have to let it go or admit you were wrong about factual data that proves otherwise . This is now a valuable thread for people who are looking for help and want to be armed with all the facts when they visit their Dr.

[endure]

Thanks, IJWT.

While reading the previous post, I was debating whether or not to answer the off-topic rubbish with extensive factual data or just decide to let it go as it was so completely inaccurate, recklessly dangerous, and off-topic.

Thanks for helping me to decide.

you have no extensive factual data if you did you would post it but it does not exist , so you will have to let it go or admit you were wrong about factual data that proves otherwise . This is now a valuable thread for people who are looking for help and want to be armed with all the facts when they visit their Dr.

It's actually a thread full of personal opinion, bias and hyperbole. The only person who appears to have any medical qualifications is Sheryl.

[sobe]

Thanks, IJWT.

While reading the previous post, I was debating whether or not to answer the off-topic rubbish with extensive factual data or just decide to let it go as it was so completely inaccurate, recklessly dangerous, and off-topic.

Thanks for helping me to decide.

you have no extensive factual data if you did you would post it but it does not exist , so you will have to let it go or admit you were wrong about factual data that proves otherwise . This is now a valuable thread for people who are looking for help and want to be armed with all the facts when they visit their Dr.

It's actually a thread full of personal opinion, bias and hyperbole. The only person who appears to have any medical qualifications is Sheryl.

I am not arguing that there are no biological factors in depression, just that the biological theories about the causality of depression have not yet been proven. Of course, all thoughts, feelings and behaviors are created by the brain and have a biological underpinning. But Dr.'s somtimes do patients a disservice when unproven theories of causation are promoted as facts.

[sriracha john]

with slight additions

4) The cause of most cases of major depression is a chemical imbalance within the brain. The utilization of anti-depressants directly addresses this deficiency. Less severe forms of depression in the form of adjustment disorders or situational reactions are of shorter duration and most often can be treated without the use of anti-depressants.

6) Based on his symptomology, the OP should seek a consultation with a medical doctor, preferably a psychiatrist, without delay as they indicate a level of depression that is unlikely to be resolved on his own.

Antidepressants actually dull the brain. Simply put your life becomes vanilla. They keep you from getting depressed, but they also keep you from becoming manic.

Don't confuse major depression with bipolar disorder. Sufferers of major depression don't become manic. Bipolar disorders are generally treated with Lithium, not anti-depressants.

People who are on such medications are prohibited from some jobs because it dulls the senses. Some aerospace jobs will not have you particularly if you are an engineer or in quality control. Pilots are grounded as well. But some medications for hypertension will get you off the job too in the above professions.

Yes, not really a true depiction of the severity of impairment from any medicine as something as seemingly innocuous as taking an over-the-counter cold medicine will ground a pilot.

If it takes you 10 beers to get drunk, think of it as 3 or 4 beers without getting intoxicated. This is how it has been describe to me by a few people. Although the link in post #35 comes across as a type of propaganda, there are certain truths that cant be denied.

Creating a similarity of effects between an anti-depressant with with alcohol is too far off the road on the "over-simplification avenue." Their chemical properties quite dissimilar.

I think going for the big guns should be a last resort. A psychologist and psychiatrist are equally qualified in sorting things out. The one difference is one can and will may give you drugs and the other wont can't because they don't have the necessary training to prescribe..

a few clarifications

[sriracha john]

sriracha john

The cause of most cases of major depression is a chemical imbalance within the brain. The utilization of anti-depressants directly addresses this deficiency.

Wrong .... the hypothetical disturbances of neurochemical function that are said to underlie "mental illness" are just that: hypothetical. No experiment has ever shown that anyone has an "imbalance" of any neurotransmitters or any other brain chemicals. Sorry sriracha john but there are no test that prove this it is only hypothetical. no conclusive medical test exist to prove this

Many symptoms, including the most commonly reported symptom "pain" is subjective. There is no test to measure/prove/disprove "pain."

Even if there were such evidence of the existence of these things, how could one fail to notice that doctors do not test for anything at all in making the diagnosis of "clinical depression" or any other "mental illness?"

There's a plethora of tests used in psychiatry, both physical and psychological.

The principal difference between medical and psychiatric diseases is this: medical diseases are discovered, generally through scientific research.

The same is true of psychiatry and is why, just like in other medical fields, it is subject to change, refinement, and improvement.

sriracha john you can not talk about chemical imbalance in the brain unless there are test for this and at this moment there are none , you can say Dr.'s may think there are chemical imbalances but right now there are no conclusive test that can prove this and that is exactly why this stuff is so dangerous if there are no test to show chemical imbalance then there is no real way to prove the effectivness in correcting these so called chemical imbalances after the drugs are given .

The proof is in the results. Millions have been helped by anti-depressants. Are they suitable for every sufferer of depression? No.

[bendix]

It's curious that sobe never answer the question (indeed, he took great pains to skirt around it) about being a Scientologist.

As for John K (and sobe)'s question about what qualifications I have to offer advice in this part of the forum . .... I have none. Which is why I offer no advice. I think that's wisest, don't you?

[John K]

with slight additions

4) The cause of most cases of major depression is a chemical imbalance within the brain. The utilization of anti-depressants directly addresses this deficiency. Less severe forms of depression in the form of adjustment disorders or situational reactions are of shorter duration and most often can be treated without the use of anti-depressants.

6) Based on his symptomology, the OP should seek a consultation with a medical doctor, preferably a psychiatrist, without delay as they indicate a level of depression that is unlikely to be resolved on his own.

Antidepressants actually dull the brain. Simply put your life becomes vanilla. They keep you from getting depressed, but they also keep you from becoming manic.

Don't confuse major depression with bipolar disorder. Sufferers of major depression don't become manic. Bipolar disorders are generally treated with Lithium, not anti-depressants.

People who are on such medications are prohibited from some jobs because it dulls the senses. Some aerospace jobs will not have you particularly if you are an engineer or in quality control. Pilots are grounded as well. But some medications for hypertension will get you off the job too in the above professions.

Yes, not really a true depiction of the severity of impairment from any medicine as something as seemingly innocuous as taking an over-the-counter cold medicine will ground a pilot.

If it takes you 10 beers to get drunk, think of it as 3 or 4 beers without getting intoxicated. This is how it has been describe to me by a few people. Although the link in post #35 comes across as a type of propaganda, there are certain truths that cant be denied.

Creating a similarity of effects between an anti-depressant with with alcohol is too far off the road on the "over-simplification avenue." Their chemical properties quite dissimilar.

I think going for the big guns should be a last resort. A psychologist and psychiatrist are equally qualified in sorting things out. The one difference is one can and will may give you drugs and the other wont can't because they don't have the necessary training to prescribe..

a few clarifications

SJ we are saying the same thing. I am trying to be more general because the OP has not been diagnosed. You are being specific to a particular issue that may or may not apply.

What ever did us humans do when there was only aspirin.....

[sriracha john]

we suffered..... a lot

[sobe]

No one ever asked me if I was a Scientologist, but I am not, do not know anything about it really . But in the 15 years I have been in AA and the many people I have sponsored and helped I have learned first hand at how very dangerous and over prescribed psychiatric medication is. I made it a personal mission of mine to learn as much as I could about it when I got hurt as I found Dr.'s so quick to treat symptoms and not address the problems.

sriracha john still waiting to hear about these conclusive test that show if anyone has an "imbalance" of any neurotransmitters or any other brain chemicals. Like I said medical diagnoses are generally backed up by empirical facts and there is not even a scrap of evidence that supports the idea that depression results from a "chemical imbalance " and these drugs correct these so called chemical imbalances . the diagnosis of the most subtle of chemical disorders in the most complex organ in the body – is made on the basis of the patient's report of feeling sad and lethargic. So baboon keep your eyes open if they start passing out the pills .

[sriracha john]

As a recovering alcoholic, I'm rather surprised about your insistence for an absolute, unequivocal "test" to make a diagnosis legitimate. As there is no such "test" for the diagnosis of alcoholism, I would have thought you'd be more familiar with the concept that some aspects of the medical field are based upon subjective data, personal history, family history and observable actions.

But... just to let you know about some of the research being done into depression and actual empirical data regarding the factual differences in depressed persons, I'll provide:

There is absolute proof that people suffering from depression have changes in their brains compared to people who do not suffer from depression. The hippocampus, a small part of the brain that is vital to the storage of memories, is smaller in people with a history of depression than in those who've never been depressed. A smaller hippocampus has fewer serotonin receptors. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter -- a chemical messenger that allows communication between nerves in the brain and the body.

What scientists don't yet know is why the hippocampus is smaller. Investigators have found that cortisol (a stress hormone that is important to the normal function of the hippocampus) is produced in excess in depressed people. They believe that cortisol has a toxic or poisonous effect on the hippocampus. It's also possible that depressed people are simply born with a smaller hippocampus and are therefore inclined to suffer from depression.

Depression is a complex illness with many contributing factors.

In keeping with your policy of not referencing sources, I'll do the same.

[sobe]

As a recovering alcoholic, I'm rather surprised about your insistence for an absolute, unequivocal "test" to make a diagnosis legitimate. As there is no such "test" for the diagnosis of alcoholism, I would have thought you'd be more familiar with the concept that some aspects of the medical field are based upon subjective data, personal history, family history and observable actions.

But... just to let you know about some of the research being done into depression and actual empirical data regarding the factual differences in depressed persons, I'll provide:

There is absolute proof that people suffering from depression have changes in their brains compared to people who do not suffer from depression. The hippocampus, a small part of the brain that is vital to the storage of memories, is smaller in people with a history of depression than in those who've never been depressed. A smaller hippocampus has fewer serotonin receptors. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter -- a chemical messenger that allows communication between nerves in the brain and the body.

What scientists don't yet know is why the hippocampus is smaller. Investigators have found that cortisol (a stress hormone that is important to the normal function of the hippocampus) is produced in excess in depressed people. They believe that cortisol has a toxic or poisonous effect on the hippocampus. It's also possible that depressed people are simply born with a smaller hippocampus and are therefore inclined to suffer from depression.

Depression is a complex illness with many contributing factors.

In keeping with your policy of not referencing sources, I'll do the same.

when was the last time a Dr. measured a persons hippocampus before he sent them on his way with a bottle of pills and has anyone shown that these pills increase the hippocampus back to a normal size . You quoted "What scientists don't yet know is why the hippocampus is smaller" and they do not know how to increase the size either certainly not with drugs . I do however believe that cortisol has a toxic or poisonous effect on the hippocampus and brain cells in general but the drugs that the shrinks are passing out do not bring back what was destroyed .

As there is no such "test" for the diagnosis of alcoholism

and hence no silly drugs claiming that they fix what we can not explain .In AA we do not believe that we can conquer alcoholism with modern technology in the form of a pill that would be the height of hubris and bad faith, a mere childish fantasy, unworthy of any thoughtful person who has their eyes open to human history and modern culture." But the psychiatric community is now well-practiced at labeling human behaviors "brain chemistry imbalances that need to be treated with chemicals." Then we are subjected to advertisements depicting sad, anergic neurotransmitter molecules plodding slowly across the synapse, and told that "depression is medical condition, and a chemical imbalance may be to blame." After treatment with Zoloft (and all the rest of this poison ), we watch perky, rejuvenated transmitter molecules merrily doing laps across the synaptic space.

No this is not how we explain and try to fix things in AA we do it through hard work not telling people we understand disturbances of neurochemical function and chemical imbalance that we have drugs that if you buy will fix these malfunctions AA is FREE and it works if you do the work . I guess that is the main difference lets face it the psychiatric community has something to sell and their pitch is just take the pill and it will fix your problem give us some money and we not only understand what is wrong we can fix it with a pill . Again AA does not make clams about things it can not prove like the psychiatric community .

I agree with John K these drugs should be used as a last resort when a person has tried many other things and must be aware that the side effects are many and they are no magic cure as the psychiatric community and drug companies would have you believe.

Edited October 24, 2006 by sobe

[bendix]

You sure keep some strange hours for a recovering alcoholic with a damaged face, sobe.

Are you also an insomniac over there in Florida?

[Ijustwannateach]

This thread is reserved for the ongoing discussion of the science of mental health which has hijacked a previous thread. Posts off-topic from that thread will be moved here.

[sobe]

thanks for moving this and not locking it , many will learn a lot from this thread

Edited October 24, 2006 by sobe

[John K]

I think finding and posting some case histories will help put some light on this topic. Without that it becomes a bit of a propaganda war.

[sobe]

John do you think testing Cortisol levels at different intervals can help in finding out if treatments for depression ,PTSD, trauma , et. are working . This hormone is a key by product of stressful situations and can reek havoc on the body . If there are actual chemical test to find out peoples level of stress/depression and how they are responding to treatments I think it may lie in the testing Cortisol levels as a good start .

Cortisol

Of those individuals who are clinically depressed, about one-half will have an excess of a hormone in their blood called cortisol. Cortisol is secreted by the adrenal glands. Located near the kidneys, the adrenal glands assist us in our reactions to stressful events. Cortisol may continue to be secreted even though a person already has high levels in his or her blood. This hormone is believed to be related to clinical depression since the high levels usually reduce to a normal level once the depression disappears.

The hypothalamus may be the culprit when it comes to excessive levels of cortisol in the blood. It is responsible for starting the process that leads to the secretion of cortisol by the adrenal glands. The hypothalamus first manufactures corticotrophic-releasing hormone (CRH). The pituitary gland is then stimulated into releasing adrenocorticotrophic hormone (ACTH). This hormone then makes the adrenal glands secret cortisol in the blood. When the endocrine system is functioning properly, the hypothalamus monitors the level of cortisol that is in the blood. When the level rises, the hypothalamus slows down its influence on the pituitary gland in production of CRH. When cortisol levels become reduced, the hypothalamus causes the pituitary gland to produce more CRH. In a person who is depressed, the hypothalamus may continuously influence the pituitary to produce CRH without regard to the amount of cortisol that is in the blood.

Other research concerning cortisol has shown that the timing of the release of this hormone may be problematic in those who are depressed. People who are not depressed tend to have secretions of cortisol at certain times of the day. Cortisol levels are highest at approximately 8:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m., and then lowest during the night. This normal cycling of cortisol levels does not occur in some people who are depressed. For instance, they might have a consistent level of cortisol all the time, or highest amounts in the middle of the night.

Cortisol levels can be tested using something called a dexamethasone suppression test (DST). This is not a test for depression since some people who are depressed may not be identified by the results of the test, but it can be used to confirm a diagnosis of depression in some people. This test involves giving a dose of dexamethasone, a synthetic cortisol, to an individual before he or she goes to sleep at night. At 8:00 a.m. the next morning, the person's blood is tested for cortisol. It is tested again at 4:00 p.m. In healthy individuals cortisol levels drop at first, but then return to normal as the hypothalamus compensates for the dexamethasone in the blood. In those who are severely depressed, approximately one-half will have abnormal results. Cortisol secretion may not be reduced by the hypothalamus, or there may be no change at all after receiving the synthetic cortisol.

[ZZZ]

I totally agree with SJ that many mental conditions are caused by chemical imbalance. I totally disagree that this imbalance can be corrected by the use of any medicine subscribed by doctors today.

As Sobe says this imbalance can not be measured, we don’t know what substances to look for what they do and what the ratios should be so how could it be tested for and how could we design a medicine to fix it?

This balance of chemicals has evolved since beginning of time and is controlled by the brain. The important thing is that the chemicals needed can only come from one source and that is from the food we eat.

Until very recently in the human history the food we ate was raw vegetables, fruits and nuts. Today many of us live on micro waved junk food lacking many of the nutrition’s necessary for a good chemical balance and a good mental health.

A change to a healthy diet will in most cases dramatically increase the mental health. This together with exercise is what all doctors should initially prescribe to all their patients.

[sobe]

Now they are saying that shopping too much is caused biochemical imbalances in the blood or brain ... my God

Scores of new disorders are literally voted in with each new edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostics and Statistical Manual. One of this manual's main uses is billing insurance companies an bilking medical health plans. If the syndrome is in the book, the label can be applied to a person, drugs administered, and the insurance company billed.

http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.as...et=Default.aspx

Beaumont said “ The current manual contains some 370 made- up “mental disorders”, including such things as Sibling Rivalry Disorder, Mathematics Disorder, Caffeine Related Disorder , Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder the latest term for PMS, Attention Deficit Disorder and Expressive Writing Disorder to name a few. There are enough disorders to label and drug every man woman and child on earth”.

Yea Thailand has been spared a lot of this if the county gets all of those so called needed shrinks the place may not be called "The Land Of Smiles " anymore

[sobe]

A change to a healthy diet will in most cases dramatically increase the mental health. This together with exercise is what all doctors should initially prescribe to all their patients.

you got it but people want th quick fix and the Drug companies are taking this to the bank : 2004 sales of $20.3 billion for antidepressants and $14.4 billion for antipsychotic drugs alone. Prescriptions for "happy pills" have increased by a startling 2,000 per cent over the past 12 years, according to the Mental Health Foundation.

The Dr.'s and drug companies can not make the big bucks off healthy people ... healthy diet, exercise the next thing you know you would have a lot of Dr.'s out of work and drug companies going under .... "here take these and see me in a month ... and pay$$$ on your way out thank you"

Edited October 25, 2006 by sobe

[markwhite]

The pill has a way of masking the symptoms but not fixing the problem

Agreed totally.

When we experience an inbalance in ourselves, we feel pain. This may be physical pain, or emotional pain. It's still pain. Our bodies (complete) are trying to get a message through to us.

We can ignore the pain and it might appear to subside. However the cause will still be there. Or we can mask the pain with whatever medication is the most appropriate to mask pain of that particular nature. Whether it be a headache, depression or whatever.

It's important to be able to read the messages or bodies give to us. If we have a toothache and make an appointment with the dentist, then it makes complete sense to use painkillers in the meantime. Once we have acknowledged the message and done something that will solve the cause of the pain, the message is less important. Unless the nature of the message changes, and we don't know because we've masked it too well with painkillers...

The balance between taking anti-depressants to alleviate emotional pain and allowing enough of the messages to come through to make the individual able to read and respond to them represents a fine line. To dope someone up on happy pills will not solve the problem. Though in some cases the individual may be so unable to cope it may appear to be an appropriate solution.

There is a school of thought that associates the dis-ease of mental health with fundamental problems in the individual's lifestyle. Much of this thread has concerned the prevalence of pill-popping in the US by people desparate to stay happy. Many may be trying to justify continuing with a lifestyle that is completely inappropriate to human existence rather than face the possibility that if they allow themselves to see their reality for all that it represents, they may realise that working and consuming and over-eating is not what they want out of their lives.

But to face this means that much of what they have been told by people they should be able to trust has actually turned out to be lies. Their world is turned upside down. Many beliefs they held to be true no longer stand up to close inspection. The old beliefs need to be allowed to die away, and that process usually takes place within the context of a nervous breakdown.

The stigma associated with mental health that it can be beaten through therapy, pills or pulling yourself together and not being so stupid only reinforces the fact that a nervous breakdown is something that can, and should be, avoided whatever is required.

The possibility that this is a natural process, that the organism knows what it is doing and is trying to heal itself in the only way it knows, is seldom considered.

It's also hideously difficult. "To die and be reborn is not easy". And to start this process from a place where the individual is depressed can seem like an impossible task. And that's where non-judgemental, non-directive therapy can have it's place. To allow the individual to feel how they feel, maybe with a buffer provided by well prescribed medication, and to reclaim part of their lives that they previous had to reject because they were told that they have to.

We either grow, or we don't. We would not consider restricting the physical body from maturing (except in such practices as foot-binding), but restricting the emotional growth of an individual is something that continues unabated in many forms that society takes at present.

You will not be yourself. You will be what we tell you to be. You will do what you are told to do. You have no choice. Don't even think you have a choice.

Is it any wonder that people get depressed?

[markwhite]

1) your body has the ability to produce hormones that can effect your moods. Certain activities produce the positive or feel good hormones. There are zero negative physical side effects to producing them internally.

Moods are an ongoing experience of a certain feeling. Feelings are experienced by contact with the environment (everything outside of 'you'). Difficult feelings are caused by contacts that cause a state of anxiety, or inability to cope with the situation. This can be resolved by learning to deal differently to the situation (to be adaptable and not fixed in behaviour), or to deal with the feeling that arises without allowing it to persist and become a fixed mood. Certain situations, or activities, cause pleasant feelings. If these are allowed to persist, a 'good' mood is the result.

Hormones are indicators of moods, not the other way round. The physical body is the grossest level, not the finest. It is the state that can be most easily read, using physiological measurement, so it is assumed that it is the starting point of reference.

It's an interesting discussion :-)

[markwhite]

>Often childhood experiences can be a problem

Everything we experience in the past is something that can affect our behaviour in the present if we allow it to.

>The young mind lacks the experience to understand and resolve the problem or situation.

I'm with you there. An unfinished situation from when an individual was, say, 8 years old will always be unconsciously remembered with the emotional maturity and associated fears of an 8 year old. It needs to be brought into consciousness now and looked at with the objectivity and experience that the adult individual has.

>Eventually the memory becomes repressed only brought out by a trigger.

The organism always tries to heal itself. When you stop doing anything and let your mind go blank, the first thing that comes to mind is the most pressing need for you to resolve. First will usually come survival needs (food, sleep, avoidance of danger), but eventually every unfinished situation will come into consciousness with the intention that you re-feel that experience as an objective or mature adult and resolve it once and for all.

And this can be done proactively, which can give very interesting and quick results...Like you mention later with hypnotherapy.

>Psychotherapy becomes a very long and drawn out process peeling away one thing at a time and

>analyzing it from every possible side

There are many flavours of pyschology, and though some require elements of analysing, others work with learning to accept how things are, especially issues from the past that cannot be changed.

>Hypnotherapy has the discovery tool of ‘age regression’ to recall the original memory

Cool example :-)