EU referendum: Brexit 'could weaken Nato', says top US general

[blazes]

Well, there are some pretty dumb comments on here today. I put it down to poor education and reading the crummy red top newspapers

As Churchill once famously said, the best argument against democracy is a 5 min conversation with an average voter!

Frankly it was a pity we agreed to universal suffrage.

But, back to the point

Firstly, all informed people agree that the best solution is to stay and reform the EU from within. I can't be bothered to give all the reasons but I will if pushed. Prepare to be seriously bored.

I'm sure our American cousins would like us to do substantially more to assist with the heavy lifting within NATO. Right now we could not do the Falklands or the first Gulf war.

Relying on massive economic muscle is a key benefit of the EU both to stare down that nice Mr Putin and to counter balance the occasional OTT action from across the Atlantic

Right now the UK occupies a particular sweet spot. Crazy to upset this finely balanced apple cart at a time like this. If the USA starts to implode we might be grateful for a few friends and partners

Now, off you go and read some comics before bed time.....

OK, So from one of those poorly educated average voters, can I push you to inform us WHY we would be better off in the EU.

General Grouse thinks that Britain can help reform the EU from within. Something that has not been achieved in the last 40 years (apart from some refunds that Margaret Thatcher was able to negotiate.)

It is the dumbest argument of all the many dumb propositions that would tie us to this elite in Brussels that we could hope to persuade 27 different countries that our particular view of reform would somehow be magically accepted by all our brothers and sisters over the water.

[nontabury]

Well, there are some pretty dumb comments on here today. I put it down to poor education and reading the crummy red top newspapers

As Churchill once famously said, the best argument against democracy is a 5 min conversation with an average voter!

Frankly it was a pity we agreed to universal suffrage.

But, back to the point

Firstly, all informed people agree that the best solution is to stay and reform the EU from within. I can't be bothered to give all the reasons but I will if pushed. Prepare to be seriously bored.

I'm sure our American cousins would like us to do substantially more to assist with the heavy lifting within NATO. Right now we could not do the Falklands or the first Gulf war.

Relying on massive economic muscle is a key benefit of the EU both to stare down that nice Mr Putin and to counter balance the occasional OTT action from across the Atlantic

Right now the UK occupies a particular sweet spot. Crazy to upset this finely balanced apple cart at a time like this. If the USA starts to implode we might be grateful for a few friends and partners

Now, off you go and read some comics before bed time.....

Would you be kind enough, Field Marshal Grouse, to let me borrow some of your more exciting comics, the ones that have made you "informed".

Well, your uninformed opinion rests precariously on the Cold War notion that Russia is going to attack the West. The Russians are not daft and know on which side their bread is buttered. Ever since the end of WW2,when Russia effectively won the war for the ungrateful West, they have been totally surrounded by US bases, to this day.

Furthermore, the British taxpayer is facing a bill for £20 billion to build a new Trident submarine, whose use in the world's power struggles is hard to define at best. Can anyone suppose that a nuclear attack launched upon Europe or North America by some (presumably rogue Russian president) would not be met instantly with massive retaliation from the US's still war-ready arsenal. Thus rendering pretty useless whatever midget contribution the Trident is supposed to provide.

And why is it that states at least as big, if not bigger, than the UK (Italy and Germany come to mind) are able to do without the insane expenditure on a useless deterrent against the hobgoblins of the Cold War.

Pass along please,Colonel Blimp.

Since WW2 Japan and Germany have been two economic power houses. The reason for this is that they have not had, to pay a sizable slice of their budget in order to boast that they have the nuclear bomb. Couple this with the fact their armies are very small and used basically for defense and not for attacking

Oil rich Countries far away.

[Grouse]

Well, there are some pretty dumb comments on here today. I put it down to poor education and reading the crummy red top newspapers

As Churchill once famously said, the best argument against democracy is a 5 min conversation with an average voter!

Frankly it was a pity we agreed to universal suffrage.

But, back to the point

Firstly, all informed people agree that the best solution is to stay and reform the EU from within. I can't be bothered to give all the reasons but I will if pushed. Prepare to be seriously bored.

I'm sure our American cousins would like us to do substantially more to assist with the heavy lifting within NATO. Right now we could not do the Falklands or the first Gulf war.

Relying on massive economic muscle is a key benefit of the EU both to stare down that nice Mr Putin and to counter balance the occasional OTT action from across the Atlantic

Right now the UK occupies a particular sweet spot. Crazy to upset this finely balanced apple cart at a time like this. If the USA starts to implode we might be grateful for a few friends and partners

Now, off you go and read some comics before bed time.....

Would you be kind enough, Field Marshal Grouse, to let me borrow some of your more exciting comics, the ones that have made you "informed".

Well, your uninformed opinion rests precariously on the Cold War notion that Russia is going to attack the West. The Russians are not daft and know on which side their bread is buttered. Ever since the end of WW2,when Russia effectively won the war for the ungrateful West, they have been totally surrounded by US bases, to this day.

Furthermore, the British taxpayer is facing a bill for £20 billion to build a new Trident submarine, whose use in the world's power struggles is hard to define at best. Can anyone suppose that a nuclear attack launched upon Europe or North America by some (presumably rogue Russian president) would not be met instantly with massive retaliation from the US's still war-ready arsenal. Thus rendering pretty useless whatever midget contribution the Trident is supposed to provide.

And why is it that states at least as big, if not bigger, than the UK (Italy and Germany come to mind) are able to do without the insane expenditure on a useless deterrent against the hobgoblins of the Cold War.

Pass along please,Colonel Blimp.

Ha! Touche!

My recommended comics are The Economist (The top of which is at least partly red) and the FT (which is wholly pink)!

Actually, I do not think that Russia have any intention of pouring through the Fulda gap! No, I mention The Ukraine because combined economic might can apply real pressure without resorting to military means.

I agree with your analysis which is unusually accurate on here at least. Yes, the USSR won the war with their blood, American money and some British intelligence (Station X)

I also think that antagonising the Russians with American bases was a mistake. That was the real cause (and eventual solution) of the Cuban missile crisis

Well, I have to disagree about Trident. The system uses British warheads. And, bang for the buck, represents reasonable value.....We also get to have a seat at the top table (though thats also about GCHQ)

More port?

( A genuine pleasure to have a reasoned discussion! Thank you sir)

[Grouse]

Well, there are some pretty dumb comments on here today. I put it down to poor education and reading the crummy red top newspapers

As Churchill once famously said, the best argument against democracy is a 5 min conversation with an average voter!

Frankly it was a pity we agreed to universal suffrage.

But, back to the point

Firstly, all informed people agree that the best solution is to stay and reform the EU from within. I can't be bothered to give all the reasons but I will if pushed. Prepare to be seriously bored.

I'm sure our American cousins would like us to do substantially more to assist with the heavy lifting within NATO. Right now we could not do the Falklands or the first Gulf war.

Relying on massive economic muscle is a key benefit of the EU both to stare down that nice Mr Putin and to counter balance the occasional OTT action from across the Atlantic

Right now the UK occupies a particular sweet spot. Crazy to upset this finely balanced apple cart at a time like this. If the USA starts to implode we might be grateful for a few friends and partners

Now, off you go and read some comics before bed time.....

OK, So from one of those poorly educated average voters, can I push you to inform us WHY we would be better off in the EU.

I promise to do so tomorrow

Having a few scoops right now

I will list for you at least some of the key points.....

[Grouse]

Well, there are some pretty dumb comments on here today. I put it down to poor education and reading the crummy red top newspapers

As Churchill once famously said, the best argument against democracy is a 5 min conversation with an average voter!

Frankly it was a pity we agreed to universal suffrage.

But, back to the point

Firstly, all informed people agree that the best solution is to stay and reform the EU from within. I can't be bothered to give all the reasons but I will if pushed. Prepare to be seriously bored.

I'm sure our American cousins would like us to do substantially more to assist with the heavy lifting within NATO. Right now we could not do the Falklands or the first Gulf war.

Relying on massive economic muscle is a key benefit of the EU both to stare down that nice Mr Putin and to counter balance the occasional OTT action from across the Atlantic

Right now the UK occupies a particular sweet spot. Crazy to upset this finely balanced apple cart at a time like this. If the USA starts to implode we might be grateful for a few friends and partners

Now, off you go and read some comics before bed time.....

OK, So from one of those poorly educated average voters, can I push you to inform us WHY we would be better off in the EU.

General Grouse thinks that Britain can help reform the EU from within. Something that has not been achieved in the last 40 years (apart from some refunds that Margaret Thatcher was able to negotiate.)

It is the dumbest argument of all the many dumb propositions that would tie us to this elite in Brussels that we could hope to persuade 27 different countries that our particular view of reform would somehow be magically accepted by all our brothers and sisters over the water.

I think you're just wrong about that

It's one of the reasons our colleagues in the EU want us to stay on board

We have brought to bear significant weight of arguement

Look at the effects on the CAP for example

Gordon did a good job keeping us out of the Euro.....

As I said on another reply, I will give my shortlist of benefits tomorrow - I will keep it less than 100....

[amdy2206]

I am pleased he said 'could' which is just as likely as 'couldn't', so no real comment as both senarios as likely as the other.

[Grouse]

Well, there are some pretty dumb comments on here today. I put it down to poor education and reading the crummy red top newspapers

As Churchill once famously said, the best argument against democracy is a 5 min conversation with an average voter!

Frankly it was a pity we agreed to universal suffrage.

But, back to the point

Firstly, all informed people agree that the best solution is to stay and reform the EU from within. I can't be bothered to give all the reasons but I will if pushed. Prepare to be seriously bored.

I'm sure our American cousins would like us to do substantially more to assist with the heavy lifting within NATO. Right now we could not do the Falklands or the first Gulf war.

Relying on massive economic muscle is a key benefit of the EU both to stare down that nice Mr Putin and to counter balance the occasional OTT action from across the Atlantic

Right now the UK occupies a particular sweet spot. Crazy to upset this finely balanced apple cart at a time like this. If the USA starts to implode we might be grateful for a few friends and partners

Now, off you go and read some comics before bed time.....

Would you be kind enough, Field Marshal Grouse, to let me borrow some of your more exciting comics, the ones that have made you "informed".

Well, your uninformed opinion rests precariously on the Cold War notion that Russia is going to attack the West. The Russians are not daft and know on which side their bread is buttered. Ever since the end of WW2,when Russia effectively won the war for the ungrateful West, they have been totally surrounded by US bases, to this day.

Furthermore, the British taxpayer is facing a bill for £20 billion to build a new Trident submarine, whose use in the world's power struggles is hard to define at best. Can anyone suppose that a nuclear attack launched upon Europe or North America by some (presumably rogue Russian president) would not be met instantly with massive retaliation from the US's still war-ready arsenal. Thus rendering pretty useless whatever midget contribution the Trident is supposed to provide.

And why is it that states at least as big, if not bigger, than the UK (Italy and Germany come to mind) are able to do without the insane expenditure on a useless deterrent against the hobgoblins of the Cold War.

Pass along please,Colonel Blimp.

Since WW2 Japan and Germany have been two economic power houses. The reason for this is that they have not had, to pay a sizable slice of their budget in order to boast that they have the nuclear bomb. Couple this with the fact their armies are very small and used basically for defense and not for attacking

Oil rich Countries far away.

No, the cost of "the bomb" is trivial compared to total GBP

Germany and Japan have seen success due to their economic systems (which are entirely different to each other)

The German Mittlestand system has just dominated. Great corporate social responsibility and intelligent education

Japan is a bit sclerotic right now. However, in the past their devotion to QUALITY has served them well

The UK should have adopted both sets of policies

[Grouse]

I am pleased he said 'could' which is just as likely as 'couldn't', so no real comment as both senarios as likely as the other.

No, wrong again

Regular contributors know that I WILL wheel out so many facts supporting the case you will wish you hadn't asked......

[Varangkul]

None of his business.

It's precisely his business. He's head of the US army in Europe.

And what has that got to do with the price of cheese? He is not the head of the European army, nor the British Army, no even the Nato forces. He is a US Army officer with no authority to talk politics - either of his own country nor any of other democratic country.

[Grouse]

None of his business.

It's precisely his business. He's head of the US army in Europe.

And what has that got to do with the price of cheese? He is not the head of the European army, nor the British Army, no even the Nato forces. He is a US Army officer with no authority to talk politics - either of his own country nor any of other democratic country.

Head of the US army in Europe

[craigt3365]

None of his business.

It's precisely his business. He's head of the US army in Europe.

And what has that got to do with the price of cheese? He is not the head of the European army, nor the British Army, no even the Nato forces. He is a US Army officer with no authority to talk politics - either of his own country nor any of other democratic country.

He's not talking politics.

[Srikcir]

Britains exit from the EU will not have an immediate detrimental impact on NATO. Britain remains in NATO whether or not it is a member of the EU.

In July 2015 PM Cameron committed to NATO's defense Britain to spending 2% of its GDP for the next five years as requested by President Obama. Both the Conservatives and the opposition Labour Party agreed to commit to the NATO target. The British government further guaranteed a real increase in the defence budget every year.

But a Brexit might adversely impact Britain's economic growth in the long term. That in turn might tempt the British government to renege on its budget commitment to NATO and begin again to reduce its military budget as it did from 2010-2014.

[Varangkul]

Well, there are some pretty dumb comments on here today. I put it down to poor education and reading the crummy red top newspapers

As Churchill once famously said, the best argument against democracy is a 5 min conversation with an average voter!

Frankly it was a pity we agreed to universal suffrage.

But, back to the point

Firstly, all informed people agree that the best solution is to stay and reform the EU from within. I can't be bothered to give all the reasons but I will if pushed. Prepare to be seriously bored.

I'm sure our American cousins would like us to do substantially more to assist with the heavy lifting within NATO. Right now we could not do the Falklands or the first Gulf war.

Relying on massive economic muscle is a key benefit of the EU both to stare down that nice Mr Putin and to counter balance the occasional OTT action from across the Atlantic

Right now the UK occupies a particular sweet spot. Crazy to upset this finely balanced apple cart at a time like this. If the USA starts to implode we might be grateful for a few friends and partners

Now, off you go and read some comics before bed time.....

OK, So from one of those poorly educated average voters, can I push you to inform us WHY we would be better off in the EU.

General Grouse thinks that Britain can help reform the EU from within. Something that has not been achieved in the last 40 years (apart from some refunds that Margaret Thatcher was able to negotiate.)

It is the dumbest argument of all the many dumb propositions that would tie us to this elite in Brussels that we could hope to persuade 27 different countries that our particular view of reform would somehow be magically accepted by all our brothers and sisters over the water.

Totally agree with Blazes. Whilst a member of EU, Britain has had an uphill struggle to gain any foothold and is always fighting 27-1 in any discussion - about anything. The only reason the "others" in the EU want Britain to remain "IN" is for its financial strength - the second largest contributor to the EU; its military strength - no one else wants the expense - and its association with the USA and the rest of the British Commonwealth. One other point - people Are getting mixed up with Britain in Europe and Britain in the European Union. Britex will still leave Britain in Europe - and a member of NATO, but outside the grasp of the greedy EU!

[Varangkul]

None of his business.

It's precisely his business. He's head of the US army in Europe.

And what has that got to do with the price of cheese? He is not the head of the European army, nor the British Army, no even the Nato forces. He is a US Army officer with no authority to talk politics - either of his own country nor any of other democratic country.

He's not talking politics.

But the Argument on Britex is very much politics Craig. Ask the British House of Parliament

[Grouse]

Well, there are some pretty dumb comments on here today. I put it down to poor education and reading the crummy red top newspapers

As Churchill once famously said, the best argument against democracy is a 5 min conversation with an average voter!

Frankly it was a pity we agreed to universal suffrage.

But, back to the point

Firstly, all informed people agree that the best solution is to stay and reform the EU from within. I can't be bothered to give all the reasons but I will if pushed. Prepare to be seriously bored.

I'm sure our American cousins would like us to do substantially more to assist with the heavy lifting within NATO. Right now we could not do the Falklands or the first Gulf war.

Relying on massive economic muscle is a key benefit of the EU both to stare down that nice Mr Putin and to counter balance the occasional OTT action from across the Atlantic

Right now the UK occupies a particular sweet spot. Crazy to upset this finely balanced apple cart at a time like this. If the USA starts to implode we might be grateful for a few friends and partners

Now, off you go and read some comics before bed time.....

OK, So from one of those poorly educated average voters, can I push you to inform us WHY we would be better off in the EU.

General Grouse thinks that Britain can help reform the EU from within. Something that has not been achieved in the last 40 years (apart from some refunds that Margaret Thatcher was able to negotiate.)

It is the dumbest argument of all the many dumb propositions that would tie us to this elite in Brussels that we could hope to persuade 27 different countries that our particular view of reform would somehow be magically accepted by all our brothers and sisters over the water.

Totally agree with Blazes. Whilst a member of EU, Britain has had an uphill struggle to gain any foothold and is always fighting 27-1 in any discussion - about anything. The only reason the "others" in the EU want Britain to remain "IN" is for its financial strength - the second largest contributor to the EU; its military strength - no one else wants the expense - and its association with the USA and the rest of the British Commonwealth. One other point - people Are getting mixed up with Britain in Europe and Britain in the European Union. Britex will still leave Britain in Europe - and a member of NATO, but outside the grasp of the greedy EU!

Astonishing codswallop

We frequently have other (often Northern European) countries supporting our stance.

We are 9th out of 10 net contributors. The amount we pay is approximately 1/28 of the EU budget

Our contribution to NATO is a miserly 2%

You mean we will still be part of Europe because we share the same tectonic plate?

Please, do me the courtesy of putting forward an argument in favour of BREXIT. And not codswallop. I can help you put the other side because it is a complex issue. Knee jerk reactions are just, well, unjust

[jesimps]

UK and NATO were doing ok before we joined the Common Market. I'm sure we'll both be ok after we leave the socialist edifice that is the EC.

Edited March 15, 2016 by jesimps

[Grouse]

UK and NATO were doing ok before we joined the Common Market. I'm sure we'll both be ok after we leave the socialist edifice that is the EC.

Not socialist

You probably mean social democratic?

BUT not red in tooth and claw "Republican"

[Grouse]

UK and NATO were doing ok before we joined the Common Market. I'm sure we'll both be ok after we leave the socialist edifice that is the EC.

Not socialist

You probably mean social democratic?

BUT not red in tooth and claw "Republican"

BTW how old are you if I may be so rude?

You really remember 70s UK?

Doing well? Really

Please explain....

[wabothai]

None of his business.

It's precisely his business. He's head of the US army in Europe.

depends on which side you are on.

[terryw]

Blatant scaremongering like this will add a few more thousand votes to the Outers campaign. Yippe.

[Credo]

A Brexit will have an affect on a lot of things, and it would appear that the overall strength of NATO is one of them. The guy is well within his rights to address the potential on NATO. Just as the British Parliament was within its right to discuss whether Donald Trump should be banned from entering Britain.

A strong and united Europe is the best way forward, if one is to believe that outside countries such as Russia pose a threat.

As he stated, it is up to the British voters to decide and ultimately, they will have to decide what is best for Britain, not what is best for NATO. It is a point to consider; nothing more, nothing less.

[tonbridgebrit]

America, shut it.

This is an internal issue for us in Europe. We don't want YOU sticking your nose into this.

[FritsSikkink]

None of his business.

It's precisely his business. He's head of the US army in Europe.

they will still be a member of nato so he is talking out of his backside

[craigt3365]

None of his business.

It's precisely his business. He's head of the US army in Europe.

they will still be a member of nato so he is talking out of his backside

Don't think he said there was a possibility of the US not being part of Nato. Just said it "could weaken Nato". Which could be true.

This guy is sharp:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Hodges

[FritsSikkink]

None of his business.

It's precisely his business. He's head of the US army in Europe.

they will still be a member of nato so he is talking out of his backside

Don't think he said there was a possibility of the US not being part of Nato. Just said it "could weaken Nato". Which could be true.

This guy is sharp:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Hodges

the UK would still be part of nato same as the US. brexit has nothing to do with it.

[SgtRock]

There are currently 5 Countries in NATO that are not part of the EU.

3 are desperate to get into the EU, but do not meet the criteria and the other 2 will never be joining the EU.

So I fail to see how it would weaken NATO.

Militarily, the 2 strongest Countries in NATO are the US and the UK. There is not much that is going to change that, whether the UK stays or leaves the EU.

The General is certainly entitled to his opinion, no matter how misplaced it might be.

[johna]

In other breaking news Farther Christmas says he will not visit the UK

[chrissables]

Well, there are some pretty dumb comments on here today. I put it down to poor education and reading the crummy red top newspapers

As Churchill once famously said, the best argument against democracy is a 5 min conversation with an average voter!

Frankly it was a pity we agreed to universal suffrage.

But, back to the point

Firstly, all informed people agree that the best solution is to stay and reform the EU from within. I can't be bothered to give all the reasons but I will if pushed. Prepare to be seriously bored.

I'm sure our American cousins would like us to do substantially more to assist with the heavy lifting within NATO. Right now we could not do the Falklands or the first Gulf war.

Relying on massive economic muscle is a key benefit of the EU both to stare down that nice Mr Putin and to counter balance the occasional OTT action from across the Atlantic

Right now the UK occupies a particular sweet spot. Crazy to upset this finely balanced apple cart at a time like this. If the USA starts to implode we might be grateful for a few friends and partners

Now, off you go and read some comics before bed time.....

Informed people? Informed of what by whom?

If the people in power do not disclose clear, true and unbiased information, there lies the problem.

Because some people do not agree with you, does that give you the right to be so condescending?

[MartinL]

We are 9th out of 10 net contributors. The amount we pay is approximately 1/28 of the EU budget

Our contribution to NATO is a miserly 2%

We are 9th out of 10 net contributors. The amount we pay is approximately 1/28 of the EU budget.

In 2014, there were 10 net contributors to the EU budget, the UK was 3^rd. of 10.

(Source - http://english.eu.dk/en/faq/faq/net_contribution)

EU budget 2014 – €116,531.8 million, UK contribution €11,341.6 million = 9.7%. (1/28 = 3.6%).

(Source - http://ec.europa.eu/budget/library/biblio/documents/2014/Internet%20tables%202000-2014.xls)

Our contribution to NATO is a miserly 2%.

That’d be 2% of GDP, the figure agreed by NATO members for military expenditure. That’s a much different figure from 2% of overall NATO funding, which is what you seem to imply.

2014 – only USA & UK exceeded that 2% GDP expenditure on the military. Estonia & Poland were close to 2% GDP.

2015 – only USA & Estonia exceeded that 2% GDP expenditure on the military. UK & Poland were close to 2% GDP.

Both years, all other countries spent <1.6% GDP with Germany & Canada spending <1.2% GDP.

Both years, USA military spend was >3.5% GDP.

(Source - http://www.businessinsider.com/only-us-and-estonia-meeting-nato-budget-goal-2015-2)

Edited March 16, 2016 by MartinL

[Pakboong]

Generals are rather good at politics so better take note☺

"I have come to the conclusion that politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians." -- Charles de Gaulle