90 Day Reporting Is Inflexible!

[mrmnp]

There was a lot of loose talk, some of it mine in the past few months as to the meaning of "report to a competent official" and what that meant relative to satisfying the 90 day reporting rule.

I outlined three examples in a ThaiImmigration.com question, where a farang is caused to go to immigraion to obtain a re-entry permit, obtain one's yearly extention or travel out of Thailand and return 60 days after last making a 90 day report. The issue is does that "Contact" with a "competent official" where your whereabouts is made known to immigration, act to extend or otherwise change your report day that is only 30 days hence in my examples.

The ANSWER was a unequivacal NO. Khun Jan, as usual, gave the reason, which is so helpful, as there is a reason for the immigration rules.

The reason is that 90 day reports go to Bkk without exception, while many other "contacts" with immigration, including the examples I created, do not. Thus Bkk would not know of your wherabouts every 90 days, which is their requirement, by your contacting your local immigration office regarding other issues, visas, re-entry permits, etc.

[sbk]

So, this means, leaving the country and re-entering on a re-entry permit does not qualify as reporting? Let's say I report in April, I leave the country in May and return in June. That means I still have to report in July?

If true, sounds like the left-hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. But, why am I surprised? Bureaucracy world-wide is like that

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It is fairly simple. If you stay 90 days on an extended visa. You have to report, Under 90 you don't ( that assumes that you leave the country before the 90 days are up )

[sbk]

Sorry Dr PP, just checked the Thai immigration website and he makes it very clear, even if I leave the country I still have to report 90 days after the previous reporting. Re-entering the country does not count as reporting. So, basically, to answer my own question: I report in April, leave in May, return in June and must then report again in July, 90 days after the report in April.

Why? Because the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing!

Thaiimmigration's answer was, the system is not computerized so although Bangkok knows where you are, it is your local immigration office that needs to know where you are and they are not told by Bangkok when you leave and enter the country. Seems like it is not just that I can report to ANY immigration office but must report to my own local one.

[Axel]

So, this means, leaving the country and re-entering on a re-entry permit does not qualify as reporting? Let's say I report in April, I leave the country in May and return in June. That means I still have to report in July?

No sbk, just follow the instructions on the TM - card. When entering the country you report your address. Should you change this (what is stated in this form, para 4) you must notify immigration within 24 hours.

If you stay longer than 90 days you must notify your place of residence and must do so every ninety days.

If you leave the country you leave the TM-card with the immigration officer who notes your departure in the system. Once you enter Thailand again, on re-entry permit or other visa, you get a new TM-card and the nonsense starts again.

[george]

Axel is right. A new entry into the Kingdom always counts as address report. Nong Khai Immigration might have local rules and regulations, it seems.

[Phil Conners]

How about this example:

Your last report was Feb 15th, so next reporting date is May 15th.

You have an annual visa which must be extended by May 1st.

From applying for the extension is usually a month, i.e. you get a "under consideration" stamp valid until June 1st.

Do you still have to file your 90 days notification on May 15th?

[huski]

How about this example:

Your last report was Feb 15th, so next reporting date is May 15th.

You have an annual visa which must be extended by May 1st.

From applying for the extension is usually a month, i.e. you get a "under consideration" stamp valid until June 1st.

Do you still have to file your 90 days notification on May 15th?

yes you still need to report your address, getting an extension does not qualify as reporting your address.

if you are over 90 days in thailand without reporting your address, they will send you to do it and pay a fine before giving you the next extension.

[Phil Conners]

Thanks. Amazing Thailand indeed...

[lopburi3]

Axel is right. A new entry into the Kingdom always counts as address report. Nong Khai Immigration might have local rules and regulations, it seems.

No mention was made of tm6 and "re-entry permit" was what was asked about so the answer may be been designed to confirm that requesting a re entry permit did not count as an address report rather than as how some of us have taken it.

[Axel]

Let's try once again. You enter Thailand and report your address in the TM-form.

Unless you change such address (must report the change within 24 hours) you have nothing to do until you stay for ninety days (provided you are allowed to stay so long).

To apply for a re-entry permit is not reporting your address, however, you leave the country and return with the re-entry permit, in such case you fill in a new TM-form, showing your address and report such address after and every ninety days.

That's how I read th

Immigration Act In the name of his Mejesty King Bhumibol

Enacted on the 24Th of February B.E. 2522 The 34Th year of the present reign

Chapter 4

Temporary Stay in the Kingdom

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following :

2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.

5. If the alien stays in the Kingdom longer than ninety days, such alien must notify the competent official at the Immigration Division , in writing , concerning his place of stay , as soon as possible upon expiration of ninety days. The alien is required to do so every ninety days. Where there is an Immigration Office , the alien may notify a competent Immigration Official of that office.

The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General.

In making notification under this Section , the alien may make notification in person or send a letter of notification to the competent official , in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Director General .

Source: http://www.imm3.police.go.th/eng/eng_law.html

[sbk]

Let's try once again. You enter Thailand and report your address in the TM-form.

Unless you change such address (must report the change within 24 hours) you have nothing to do until you stay for ninety days (provided you are allowed to stay so long).

To apply for a re-entry permit is not reporting your address, however, you leave the country and return with the re-entry permit, in such case you fill in a new TM-form, showing your address and report such address after and every ninety days.

OK, that makes more sense to me, the website read to me like re-entering the country didn't count, which kind of threw me I must say. I will check with immigration next time I report and let you know. Also, I will ask my local immigration if it is alright to use the downloaded form from thaiimmigration.com or not. If so, it will certainly make reporting easier!

[mrmnp]

lopburi3, you are so correct.

Axel and others who want an answer from the "horses mouth", suggest you ask a carefully framed question with an example as I did at ThaiImigration.com and you will get a definitive answer withing 24 hours.

My questions with explanation were answered and I am satisfied with the explanation that Bkk is not aware of what local offices are doing regarding the granting of extentions, et al, so they require a 90 day report regardless of any other contacts with immigration.

Before you make a judgement that under specific circumstances you don't have to slaveishly report every 90 days regardless, I suggest you get a definitive answer to your explicit example from their web page.

I, for one, in an abundance of caution, will report every 90 days regardless, as I do not want to give an ill-informed immigration officer the opportunity to levy a 5,000 baht fine because he doesn't agree with a web page interpretation of the regulations.

[Sunny Valentine]

No, to further understand the whole process, how about this one:

On a One Year Visum, with Multiple Reentry Permit.

Last Report was on Feb 1st.

Next Visit is due on May 1st.

Now, I leave Thailand for a two week Holiday, from April 25st to May 8.

When do I have to Report again after returning?

Sunny

[george]

No, to further understand the whole process, how about this one:

On a One Year Visum, with Multiple Reentry Permit.

Last Report was on Feb 1st.

Next Visit is due on May 1st.

Now, I leave Thailand for a two week Holiday, from April 25st to May 8.

When do I have to Report again after returning?

90 days after your return to the Kingdom in May, that is beginning of August. You are doing your address report when you fill in the TM card on arrival, and that report is valid for 90 days.

[Axel]

Axel and others who want an answer from the "horses mouth", suggest you ask a carefully framed question ...

My questions with explanation were answered and I am satisfied with the explanation that Bkk is not aware of what local offices are doing regarding the granting of extentions, et al, so they require a 90 day report regardless of any other contacts with immigration.

mrmnp, you are right to try to be on the safe side.

For myself, I can only quote the law in here.

"Carefully framed questions"? I asked 2-3 years ago, when the rule was put forward and was told, "you don't worry".

So, matter of fact, over the last 12 years, I never reported on the 90-days-thing, but than I never stayed for 90 days, and that is the rule, day 89 I fly to Singapore, come back same day and 90 days start counting again. That's what I was told, that's what is written in the web side and that's what I do....

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Axel and others who want an answer from the "horses mouth", suggest you ask a carefully framed question ...

My questions with explanation were answered and I am satisfied with the explanation that Bkk is not aware of what local offices are doing regarding the granting of extentions, et al, so they require a 90 day report regardless of any other contacts with immigration.

mrmnp, you are right to try to be on the safe side.

For myself, I can only quote the law in here.

"Carefully framed questions"? I asked 2-3 years ago, when the rule was put forward and was told, "you don't worry".

So, matter of fact, over the last 12 years, I never reported on the 90-days-thing, but than I never stayed for 90 days, and that is the rule, day 89 I fly to Singapore, come back same day and 90 days start counting again. That's what I was told, that's what is written in the web side and that's what I do....

That will always suffice Axel. You never stay 90 days, so there is no report needed.

[mrmnp]

Dear George:

After reading your last post, I returned to ThaiImmigration.com to see if the Tm issue was covered in my last example and here is the exact quote of Khun Jan in regard to Tm

Like this, to fill in and submit a TM7 Form doesn't mean you have notified about your stay either

My understanding of "Tinglish" is the Khun Jan says the Tm7 doesn't satisfy the 90 day rule.

Your advice has always been flawless, so pehaps you could obtain a clarification. Khun Jan in other topics, appears to be quite reasonable in resolving conflicts in immigration inconsistencies, so perhaps you could obtain a clarification of your view and theirs as quoted above? Thank you.

[KenUdon]

Seems to be a bit of confusion about the REASON for the 90 day reporting.

It is not to confirm that you are still in the country. It is so that immigration know WHERE you are staying in the country.

Therefore, your arrival IN the country with the TM card counts as the FIRST reporting of address, and it is from that date that the 90 days start. No connection to when you last reported at all.

Hope this clarifies a bit.

[george]

And filling in a new TM card on arrival mean a new entry in The Immigration computer system, so by law the address notification is fulfilled. Again, Nong Khai Immigration might have set their own rules, which they are prefectly entitled to. I have a hard time to understand how they could possible fine someone 5,000 Baht for not reporting the address within 90 days if you have arrived into the Kingdom on a re-entry permit. Again, I could be wrong.

[astral]

I agree with Axel and George.

New entry at the airport with a new TM card means you have reported your address on that day. End of discussion.

I have had this problem at my local office, many times.

Filling out the TM card is the report.

PS Tell them to check your record on the Immigration computer.

As far as I know ALL offices are on line now.

[lopburi3]

My understanding of "Tinglish" is the Khun Jan says the Tm7 doesn't satisfy the 90 day rule.

But that is not your arrival/departure card (tm6). Believe tm7 is a request for extension of stay and would not count as an address report.

[george]

Lopburi3 is right. TM6 (TM card) qualifies, TM7 (application for extension of stay) does not.

[sbk]

I am going to Samui Immigration tomorrow, will ask them what they think...

Will keep you posted!

[mrmnp]

Evidently, George or some other member of the ThaiImmigration.com forum contacted Kuhn Jan, (Admin1) about the reply to my example #3 that includes a trip out of and return to Thailand sixty days after your last 90 day report, as posted earlier in this thread.

Kuhn Jan sent me a personal message alerting me to the fact that the previous reply post to my post, example #3, had been revised.

The reply regarding my example #3 now clearly reads that the TM card filled out upon your entry or (re-entry) into Thailand begins a new 90 day period, regardless of when you returned to Thailand in relation to your 90 day notice filed prior to departure.

Thus George and the others who so posted are RIGHT. I must say that Kuhn Jan at ThaiImmigration.com is extremely diligent and helpful and there is much evidence of western style effort to put out the correct information, and even coordinate inter-office discrepencies as they are reported in that forum.

Hopefully, that forum won't be abused, as we see so often in this forum by frustrated and angry farang who can't get their own way when dealing with immigration. Otherwise, the prompt replies and patience in clearing up inconsistencies in perceived immigration rules will become a thing of the past.

[Axel]

mrmnp, let's say a thank you for your efforts. Now everything is clear.

Believe there was a mis understanding between TM6 and TM7

[jayenram]

If the alien stays in the Kingdom longer than ninety days, such alien must notify the competent official .......

How, pray, do we determine which official is competent and which official is incompetent? I don't think asking would be benificial to your cause.

Perhaps the immigration officials could in future wear badges indicating their level of competence.

Just a thought.

[sbk]

OK, just to add to the confusion! Remember that part of Khun Jan's answer about it being left to the discretion of the individual officer and/or office? Well, I went to Samui immigration today to apply for a re-entry permit and do my 90 day reporting. At my (very relaxed) local office I was told by two different officers that I didn't need to worry about filling out the 90 day report form, that my re-entry permit application was enough. And this was said in front of the boss, who didn't say a thing. I asked, was told this and then asked another one, just to be sure. I even said something along the lines of "I thought I needed to do both, that the check-in was something different". "Naah, don't worry about it, the re-entry permit application is fine", was the response I got.

So, when they say it is up to the discretion of the office, I guess it just depends on how uptight your local office is. Mine, obviously, is not.

Also, I double checked about re-entering the country and they both made it clear that the 90 day report was made 90 days after re-entering the country.

Sorry everybody, if this adds to the confusion, I guess it just depends on where you are. Check with your local officer and see how flexible he/she feels.

[Phil Conners]

Seems to be a bit of confusion about the REASON for the 90 day reporting.

It is not to confirm that you are still in the country. It is so that immigration know WHERE you are staying in the country.

Therefore, your arrival IN the country with the TM card counts as the FIRST reporting of address, and it is from that date that the 90 days start. No connection to when you last reported at all.

Hope this clarifies a bit.

It still doesn't make any sense. Either I'm still at the same address that I was 3 months ago in which case the visit is a waste of everybody's time, or I have a new address which I should report anyway. If for any reason I didn't want to report it I could just give them a fake address or a hotel address, I'm certain the addresses are virtually never checked anyway. I am still convinced this 90 day rule is really just another small annoyance to inconvenience foreigners.

[mrmnp]

madsere: From what I have heard on this forum about lazy Thai public officials, I can't see any point, such as inconveniencing foreigners, as a resonable objective of the exercis since all these forms decending on the immigration offices just makes more work for them.

On the other hand, when they get their immigration department wide computer system hooked up this year, they will be able to compare your address reporting with the address reporting of the hotel, house landlord or other hostels, such that they will collect a lot of fines or they will truly keep track of foreigners, which I think is thier ultimate objective.

Overstays are a big problem for any country and tracking foreigners is one way of minimizing that. I agree that it makes a lot of sense to report your address only when you change it. Landlords, including Thai wives who own our houses have to report your presence, but only when you move in. It makes more sense to have the reporting when we move only.

On the other hand, I don't understand many of the issues involved with immigration, I am sure some of it is retaliation for what other countries do. Keeping our eye on the 90 day magic number as to visas, extentions, etc. perhaps their is a mindset that every foreigner will be heard from of every 90 days at the longest, whether on a visa, extention or residency permit.