Trouble in paradise: Thailand and the expatriate experience

[Yunla]

I think it is relative, and what you make it, and also the luck element which is universal no matter where you live. Also the "paradise" in the title will vary from person to person.

I've been visiting Thailand since the 1970s when my Ma took me here on her back, she was an intrepid backpacker when it was unfashionable to be a single woman travelling around foreign parts.

During the 1990s my house in Leeds city centre was burgled over a dozen times, I was mugged in the street and injured by home invaders. In all cases the police caught the criminals and they received "official cautions" or community service orders. I felt unsafe living there, in the amoral liberal nosedive culture under Blair.

Also my health was failing me rapidly in the 1990s, and my doctor urged me to move to a warmer climate. I decided to spend more time in Bangkok, a city I have always adored. I bought a home here, and have lived here on-and-off for twenty years. I've never been burgled here, or robbed, or assaulted, by anyone. The local Thai blue-collar community shows me great kindness and friendship. I rarely see tourists where I live, it is a quiet neighbourhood with normal Thai working families. It is the sort of place I wish I had grown up in!

I love the sunshine, the peace and quiet, the trees and songbirds. For me, "paradise" is reading a really interesting book in the sun, undisturbed and safe from harm. That is my paradise, and I can confirm that I have found this paradise in Bangkok. The climate here has really helped with my lifelong health disorders, and as I have chosen to be single my whole life, no interest at all in romance etc., my life is free from many of the complications that I read about on these and other forums.

So "paradise" is completely subjective, and "trouble" is where you find it. The title is of course an old one, but I think it is defeated by its own vagueness and subjectivity.

[MaiChai]

One might observe that Thailand used to be the wild East and because of this attracted foreigners who like to bend rules, break laws and live dangerously. It's only a recent occurance that Thailand has become all moral and ethical. Mind you scratch off the thin veneer and you will see nothing has changed...

[JLCrab]

I don't know about that living dangerously type stuff -- I was first attracted to Thailand almost 30 years ago because it became easier to fly into Bangkok and then head to work in PRChina than flying into and staying in very expensive Hong Kong.

[glenmohr]

He said that many farangs expect the same cultural standards here in Thailand as they have within their home countries.

Like a properly functioning police force, fair and impartial Judiciary, and an effective democratically elected government - who aren't in their positions for the sole purpose of amassing grotesque levels of personal wealth? Yep, guilty as charged...

I had to laugh when I read this

That's good, because it was meant to be funny! For as much as one would like to see that, for the reasons stated above and many more, it will likely never happen.

But no matter how cynical some become a person and a country should aspire to standards that improve life and make it fairer for those around us.

[glenmohr]

I don't know about that living dangerously type stuff -- I was first attracted to Thailand almost 30 years ago because it became easier to fly into Bangkok and then head to work in PRChina than flying into and staying in very expensive Hong Kong.

And in the 1980s it was the same for Vietnam JLC, cheaper to fly via BKK and the best place to get the visa on the way through

[EyesWideOpen]

Being in Thailand as a single expat is sort of like

a game. Learn the rules, play it well, and you can

have a fantastic time. If you actually believe

the stories woven by bar girls and start buying them

cars and houses, you have in essence lost the game

and are nothing more than a buffalo being milked.

My first week in Thailand, an old seasoned expat

told me to never believe a single word a Thai

girl tells you, and you will have the time of your

life. He was exactly right, and I indeed had the time

of my life for 14 years.. :-)

Maybe the phrase "Trust, but verify" could've provided you with even a better time.

naaa... he got it right first time

Some things on first hearing seem totally incredulous but then turn out to be true.

When the seasoned expat told about never believing a single word

a Thai girl said, I thought it was extremely negative. But I did put

it in the back of my mind, and held an ongoing test to see if it was

correct. It was..... So over the years as all these lies were spun out

to me, I just smiled and never took it negatively. They are simply

acting in a way to maximize their income, cannot blame them for

that. Just don't send money for sick buffaloes... :-)

[Psychic]

Being in Thailand as a single expat is sort of like

a game. Learn the rules, play it well, and you can

have a fantastic time. If you actually believe

the stories woven by bar girls and start buying them

cars and houses, you have in essence lost the game

and are nothing more than a buffalo being milked.

My first week in Thailand, an old seasoned expat

told me to never believe a single word a Thai

girl tells you, and you will have the time of your

life. He was exactly right, and I indeed had the time

of my life for 14 years.. :-)

Maybe the phrase "Trust, but verify" could've provided you with even a better time.

naaa... he got it right first time

Some things on first hearing seem totally incredulous but then turn out to be true.

When the seasoned expat told about never believing a single word

a Thai girl said, I thought it was extremely negative. But I did put

it in the back of my mind, and held an ongoing test to see if it was

correct. It was..... So over the years as all these lies were spun out

to me, I just smiled and never took it negatively. They are simply

acting in a way to maximize their income, cannot blame them for

that. Just don't send money for sick buffaloes... :-)

I've noticed this happening in other countries too.

I've actually seen some butt ugly rich old men with model type wives (thanks to the news Donald Trump comes to mind) :-)

[skildpadden]

The wife if my mate came back to Thailand to retire.

Lived in Europe for nearly 20 years.

She is shocked about all the change in Thailand, in a very negative way.

She is shocked about the way the Thai treat her, as if she is a kind of "alien".

She is shocked about the treatment of the expats and herself by the authorities.

After reading this piece of "blame the farang for all that has gone wrong in Thailand", she thinks that Thailand should blame itself.

The authorities for doing wrong and the Thai for accepting it.

A Thai friend had been living in the US for 30+ years - she is now reaching her retirement age and she was here last year for a long period to check out if she should consider buying a condo and retire in Thailand.

After that visit she doesn't consider retiring in Thailand anymore - basically same reasons as in your posts. She knew that of course that Thailand had evolved since she left - what she didn't realize was that Thailand in her opinion had had a reverse evolution.

[JLCrab]

I won't direct quote to the above: There is no shortage of BS out there, but unless you are sometimes willing to put yourself at a little risk and follow up on some things that initially sound too good to be true, you may miss out. Had I followed your old guy's credo above, I would have. YMMV.

Edited March 22, 2016 by JLCrab

[nemrut]

Because youre not looking at the big picture.

Municipal services, government, etc all part of a country's 'infrastructure.'

The same infrastructure thousands of farang enjoy for free courtesy of Thai tax payer.

The same infrastructure that deals with the numerous farang altercations, violence and criminal activity.

The same infrastructure that allows farang to get hospital care regardless of whether theyre able to pay.

The same infrastructure that is barely capable of serving it's own citizens let alone the hordes of farang who strain the healthcare, law enforcement and emergency personnel that deal with all the farang suicides, deaths and other self-induced mishaps.

All this 'infrastructure' courtesy of Thai tax payers...

Very well ducked.

But if you want to talk about infrastructure are you talking about the airports that bring tourists here, the roads they use to sightsee, the water and electricity that goes to their hotels?

Every time someone buys something in Thailand they pay tax and support the economy.

You obviously believe that having foreigners in Thailand costs the economy more than not having them here.

I believe you are completely incorrect.

Of course there are exceptions but the vast majority of ex-pats pour far larger sums of money into the economy than they take out.

The amount of sales tax collected from farang barely makes a dent in the costs of maintaining airports, roads, utilities, etc. It does offset some of the costs incurred when dealing with their often dysfunctional and self destructive behavior.

There are many 'foreigners' who contribute positively to the Thai economy as tourists or in business without the babysitting and high maintenance that many 'farang' often require.

I am addressing the latter not the former if you understand the distinction.

[nemrut]

Hospital care without payment ?? You must be fresh off the boat

and wasted no time in putting on the rose colored glasses...

If you cut your finger, the hospital may take a chance of fixing

you and hope you pay. Any major operation or procedure you

will be paying in advance, or you will receive NO treatment....

So on the day of your operation, the first thing you will do

is visit the patient services desk where you pay upfront

for their estimated total cost.

If youre injured they wont turn you away and will bill you later. Whether you're able to pay is another matter altogether hence the concern that farang are straining a healthcare system that is already inadequately funded and staffed.

[nemrut]

This article presents nothing other than dismissive, whiny, nastiness using acceptably polite lan

No worse than the 'dismissive, whiny, nastiness, using acceptably impolite language' by many on this forum to bash Thais.

The article speaks a lot of truth you and others are simply in denial about. You did notice that the author is farang right?

That doesn't always make him right though.

There are very many of us farangs who are nothing like the author describes and as Shaunduhpostman says above. We don't all live or even want to live in farang ghettos. We didn't all marry HiSo Thai ladies, nor wear wife beater T-shirts, get drunk, every night in places like Pattaya etc, cause accidents, overstay or any of the other myriad things that farangs are sometimes accused of.

Many of us are normal quiet peaceful people who ended up here in Thailand for one reason or other and have put down roots, who DO obey the laws as silly as they seem sometimes, who rarely visit hospitals, who DO pay our way. Many of us have married Thai ladies and have families and extended families and are quite happy to be here.

Sure I can think on quite a few ways that Thailand could do differently which would make life easier for me and my family and everybody else and their families but I don't have a say in it and rightly so as it isn't my country.

In my country I still pay tax and I do have a vote but I still can't change things if the person/party I voted for doesn't get into power.

True but you should also acknowledge that there a many if not more farang who fit what the author describes.

[Bluespunk]

Hospital care without payment ?? You must be fresh off the boat

and wasted no time in putting on the rose colored glasses...

If you cut your finger, the hospital may take a chance of fixing

you and hope you pay. Any major operation or procedure you

will be paying in advance, or you will receive NO treatment....

So on the day of your operation, the first thing you will do

is visit the patient services desk where you pay upfront

for their estimated total cost.

If youre injured they wont turn you away and will bill you later. Whether you're able to pay is another matter altogether hence the concern that farang are straining a healthcare system that is already inadequately funded and staffed.

It is underfunding that is causing the strains on the healthcare system, it has nothing to do with the minority of non Thais who use it.

[fey]

it all hinges on things being cheaper.

without that tourism here would be relatively rare, a moot point.

[Gary A]

I think we all get disgusted once in a while. I know that I do. However, put me firmly in the love it of leave it category. I have no intention to ever leave Thailand and I love it warts and all, and yes there are warts. Living out in the boonies, I will say that if anything ever happens to my wife, I'll be packing my bags and heading back to the farang ghetto of Jomtien. The key to being content upcountry is having a good wife. I personally think that the moaners and groaners should simply leave.

[MartinL]

Because youre not looking at the big picture.

Municipal services, government, etc all part of a country's 'infrastructure.'

The same infrastructure thousands of farang enjoy for free courtesy of Thai tax payer.

The same infrastructure that deals with the numerous farang altercations, violence and criminal activity.

The same infrastructure that allows farang to get hospital care regardless of whether theyre able to pay.

The same infrastructure that is barely capable of serving it's own citizens let alone the hordes of farang who strain the healthcare, law enforcement and emergency personnel that deal with all the farang suicides, deaths and other self-induced mishaps.

All this 'infrastructure' courtesy of Thai tax payers...

By "Thai tax payers", I suppose you're talking about Thai INCOME tax payers.

Believe it or not, there are other taxes in Thailand.

As a non-working foreigner living full-time in Thailand, I pay every other type of tax levied on an individual person when it's due. I am, therefore, a taxpayer in Thailand, even though I'm not Thai, and as such I, too, support the various infrastructure elements you mention. I pay the same taxes as non-working Thais.

In 2014, VAT - a tax we can't avoid - take alone was 2.5 times the total income tax take, never mind the various other taxes levied on individuals in the course of their daily lives. It would appear that income tax isn't as important to the Thai Revenue Dept. as non-income-based taxes.

Edited March 22, 2016 by MartinL

[cpofc]

Trouble In Paradise? What trouble?

It is easy to find the stereotypes you seek if you can't drag your arse off a Pattaya, Nana, Patong Beach Bar Stool.

My mate back in Australia tells me that when at Social gatherings etc., he happens to mention he has a mate living in Bangkok, there are always a few who instantly raise their eyebrows - Sex Tourist? Paedophile? Bolier Room Spammer? No Hoper? Criminal on the run? Stereotyping - It will always be around whilst we have intrepid reporters like the author of this article. Come and stay with me for a while and see how the other half live. But that would be no good, I'm afraid life with me out here would not sell any newspapers.

How far do I go back? 1970. A young teeenager of 16. When virtually all the 'working' girls were older than I was. Some places in the LOS were 'paradise' then. Albeit, somewhat 'spartan' in some places outside of the capital, but that is what 'paradise' was once meant to be wasn't it?

Now 'paradise' means 'infrastruture' apparently.

Yes, I agree, Thailand has a lot of faults. But then tell me which country doesn't these days.

I was married to a Thai for 30 years. We are still good friends. But she wanted to stay in Aust and I wanted to pull the plug and come back here. She comes up and stays for short visits now and again, but her home is in Australia now. She even has two of her sisters with her down there these days. I remember in the early days of our marriage after we returned to Australia, she would complain bitterly about the negative press and media, saying that the only time they ever mentioned Thailand it was about heroin, Thai Buddha Sticks (gangja), or prostitution. Although that was to change in the 90's when the LOS became the flavour of the month, literally, for budget Aussie tourists.

And now I live in outer suburban Bangkok, (same Moo Baan as my MIL) where there is no trouble in my 'paradise'. Not for me. I live single, have my own place, I am accepted, respected and referred to by my first name. I leave other people the hell alone, and hope they reciprocate. I take things one day at a time. Patience is a virtue here.

It is still my 'slice of heaven'. Put simply. Life is too short to be a sad, jaded bas_tard.

[chiang mai]

Because youre not looking at the big picture.

Municipal services, government, etc all part of a country's 'infrastructure.'

The same infrastructure thousands of farang enjoy for free courtesy of Thai tax payer.

The same infrastructure that deals with the numerous farang altercations, violence and criminal activity.

The same infrastructure that allows farang to get hospital care regardless of whether theyre able to pay.

The same infrastructure that is barely capable of serving it's own citizens let alone the hordes of farang who strain the healthcare, law enforcement and emergency personnel that deal with all the farang suicides, deaths and other self-induced mishaps.

All this 'infrastructure' courtesy of Thai tax payers...

By "Thai tax payers", I suppose you're talking about Thai INCOME tax payers.

Believe it or not, there are other taxes in Thailand.

As a non-working foreigner living full-time in Thailand, I pay every other type of tax levied on an individual person when it's due. I am, therefore, a taxpayer in Thailand, even though I'm not Thai, and as such I, too, support the various infrastructure elements you mention. I pay the same taxes as non-working Thais.

In 2014, VAT - a tax we can't avoid - take alone was 2.5 times the total income tax take, never mind the various other taxes levied on individuals in the course of their daily lives. It would appear that income tax isn't as important to the Thai Revenue Dept. as non-income-based taxes.

Agreed - some supportive arguments:

Less than 2% of Thais pay income tax via payroll deductions, with an average monthly salary of circa 14k baht most avoid income tax completely so income tax as a rule is not paying for that infrastructure, business tax, VAT and sales tax is.

I don't know about every other expat but I manage to spend around one million baht each year and most of that is taxed in one way or the other, at least by 7%, that's considerably more paid in tax each year than the average wage earner.

Every three years I trade my car for a new one, every five years, historically, I buy and/or sell property, all of which are taxed.

[fey]

Once again, it is such fun to come on to ThaiVisa and read the comments of persons who know more about Thailand and what the Thais should do than the Thais do -- like a bunch of Dutch Uncles.

so just say nothing? that rarely works, even in thailand.

[billd766]

This article presents nothing other than dismissive, whiny, nastiness using acceptably polite lan

No worse than the 'dismissive, whiny, nastiness, using acceptably impolite language' by many on this forum to bash Thais.

The article speaks a lot of truth you and others are simply in denial about. You did notice that the author is farang right?

That doesn't always make him right though.

There are very many of us farangs who are nothing like the author describes and as Shaunduhpostman says above. We don't all live or even want to live in farang ghettos. We didn't all marry HiSo Thai ladies, nor wear wife beater T-shirts, get drunk, every night in places like Pattaya etc, cause accidents, overstay or any of the other myriad things that farangs are sometimes accused of.

Many of us are normal quiet peaceful people who ended up here in Thailand for one reason or other and have put down roots, who DO obey the laws as silly as they seem sometimes, who rarely visit hospitals, who DO pay our way. Many of us have married Thai ladies and have families and extended families and are quite happy to be here.

Sure I can think on quite a few ways that Thailand could do differently which would make life easier for me and my family and everybody else and their families but I don't have a say in it and rightly so as it isn't my country.

In my country I still pay tax and I do have a vote but I still can't change things if the person/party I voted for doesn't get into power.

True but you should also acknowledge that there a many if not more farang who fit what the author describes.

Try reading my post once again. I didn't disagree or deny what he said but I did point out where the author didn't that not every farang in the country are as he described. Most probably far more are of the type that I described simply because it only takes a few rotten ones for the label to be attached to all of us and bad news sells, good news doesn't.

[Bigstef]

It would be nice if Thailand had a Western neighbourhood somewhere, something like Chinatown.

They have - it's called Pattaya

What i like about Pattaya is the foreign restaurants (even Indian, Lebanese or whatever) and that they speak better english than Bangkokians.

If Bangkok had a Western neighbourhood it would also attract many Thai to learn english,hygiene/butchering/medical/safety/efficiency/high quality and so on. But since Westerners are not allowed to work here it will never happen.

The Thai like to build small villages in Western Style (like in Khao Yai area) but they can't produce the same atmosphere/quality there, no matter how hard they try.

If there was a nice Western neighbourhood (not only nightlife like in Pattaya) it would even attract many extra tourists from neighbouring Asian country's.

With the proper visa you can work in Thailand....

[Bobotie]

It would be nice if Thailand had a Western neighbourhood somewhere, something like Chinatown.

They have - it's called Pattaya

What i like about Pattaya is the foreign restaurants (even Indian, Lebanese or whatever) and that they speak better english than Bangkokians.

If Bangkok had a Western neighbourhood it would also attract many Thai to learn english,hygiene/butchering/medical/safety/efficiency/high quality and so on. But since Westerners are not allowed to work here it will never happen.

The Thai like to build small villages in Western Style (like in Khao Yai area) but they can't produce the same atmosphere/quality there, no matter how hard they try.

If there was a nice Western neighbourhood (not only nightlife like in Pattaya) it would even attract many extra tourists from neighbouring Asian country's.

With the proper visa you can work in Thailand....

No you cant...no visa allows you to work in Thailand...only a work permit allows you work in Thailand

[Gary A]

I don't know if others have wife problems. I haven't mentioned that I do have some problems. I am not allowed to take out the trash because I throw good stuff away. I'm not allowed to use the Honda weed whacker because I cut down good stuff. What she calls herbs look like weeds to me. It irritates me but after giving that some thought, I decided that I am the winner in those situations. If I do nothing I am safe.

The biggest irritation is that my wife knows EVERYTHING! I am pretty handy with the little home repair problems. When I am working on something she likes to supervise me. I yell at her and tell her to get away from me. The second time she wants to supervise, I just drop everything and tell her to do it herself. I go meet up with the boys and have a few beers. The worst part is that she usually does finish the little projects. The only satisfaction I get is if there is some grunt work, she calls one of the village handymen and halfway through the job, she fires him and finishes it herself. She does have problems hiring those guys now. They know her.

[Bigstef]

It would be nice if Thailand had a Western neighbourhood somewhere, something like Chinatown.

They have - it's called Pattaya

What i like about Pattaya is the foreign restaurants (even Indian, Lebanese or whatever) and that they speak better english than Bangkokians.

If Bangkok had a Western neighbourhood it would also attract many Thai to learn english,hygiene/butchering/medical/safety/efficiency/high quality and so on. But since Westerners are not allowed to work here it will never happen.

The Thai like to build small villages in Western Style (like in Khao Yai area) but they can't produce the same atmosphere/quality there, no matter how hard they try.

If there was a nice Western neighbourhood (not only nightlife like in Pattaya) it would even attract many extra tourists from neighbouring Asian country's.

With the proper visa you can work in Thailand....

No you cant...no visa allows you to work in Thailand...only a work permit allows you work in Thailand

You know what I want to say please stop playing with the words lollll

[dcnx]

He said that many farangs expect the same cultural standards here in Thailand as they have within their home countries.

Like a properly functioning police force, fair and impartial Judiciary, and an effective democratically elected government - who aren't in their positions for the sole purpose of amassing grotesque levels of personal wealth? Yep, guilty as charged...

Why are you here? I am sure you already have the above where you come from...so go to your Nirvana...

I suppose it's too much to ask for a little road safety so your child has a better chance of making it to and from school every day, or fair justice should it be needed.

I guess all of us who would like such things should catch the next plane out, or head to the nearest bar.

[PaullyW]

It would be nice if Thailand had a Western neighbourhood somewhere, something like Chinatown.

They have - it's called Pattaya

What i like about Pattaya is the foreign restaurants (even Indian, Lebanese or whatever) and that they speak better english than Bangkokians.

If Bangkok had a Western neighbourhood it would also attract many Thai to learn english,hygiene/butchering/medical/safety/efficiency/high quality and so on. But since Westerners are not allowed to work here it will never happen.

The Thai like to build small villages in Western Style (like in Khao Yai area) but they can't produce the same atmosphere/quality there, no matter how hard they try.

If there was a nice Western neighbourhood (not only nightlife like in Pattaya) it would even attract many extra tourists from neighbouring Asian country's.

Not only is there not a nice western neighborhood in Thailand, neither is there a single uniformly nice neighborhood OF ANY TYPE in Thailand.

There is a nice house here and there, but nothing uniformly nice. Khao Yai probably comes closest but even it isn't very nice.

Utter nonsense.

It is only nonsense if you have perhaps never lived in a beautiful city/neighborhood? Visit me in Santa Monica, California, USA. I'll show you what a real beautiful community looks like.

[Bluespunk]

I don't know if others have wife problems. I haven't mentioned that I do have some problems. I am not allowed to take out the trash because I throw good stuff away. I'm not allowed to use the Honda weed whacker because I cut down good stuff. What she calls herbs look like weeds to me. It irritates me but after giving that some thought, I decided that I am the winner in those situations. If I do nothing I am safe.

The biggest irritation is that my wife knows EVERYTHING! I am pretty handy with the little home repair problems. When I am working on something she likes to supervise me. I yell at her and tell her to get away from me. The second time she wants to supervise, I just drop everything and tell her to do it herself. I go meet up with the boys and have a few beers. The worst part is that she usually does finish the little projects. The only satisfaction I get is if there is some grunt work, she calls one of the village handymen and halfway through the job, she fires him and finishes it herself. She does have problems hiring those guys now. They know her.

So you have a wife who wants to do everything herself and is happy for you to go out for a few beers while she does the jobs?

I'm sorry but I'm not seeing a problem. Sounds ideal to me.