police raids on bars

[LannaGuy]

I think a relaxed stance, exactly in between amused and bemused is best.

By all means follow directions,

I don't speak any Thai, and I can't understand any English spoken by Thais.

You'd be amazed how quickly Thai officials want to get rid of me.

I'm as cooperative as someone who has no idea can be.

If I could only understand their directions, I would be more than pleased to follow them.

('I'm sorry I don't understand what you want', my own version of 'arai na')

Is it quicker than if you just showed them your ID? Perhaps you just prefer to create problems...

I will comply because I have to but it is a stain on this country as it turns into a police/army state and freedoms and rights vanish

[FolkGuitar]

We were referring to Brit tims post number 46, where he claimed as such

He said that the reason for the raids was to make foreigners pay bribe money, we all seem to agree that that is a false allegation

Unless you look big picture...

Pressure on businesses to 'comply' and in turn pay bribes.. Paid for by the business provided by customers..

How often does a bar get raided?

How many times has the UN Irish Pub been raided? Or Mad Dog Saloon? How many businesses have been pressured to 'comply?'

Are the police intimidating just Zoe in Yellow several times a month? Is it for money, or is it because of known drug dealing that goes on there?

If the same bar was hassled several times over the course of a month, I'd agree with you. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

[FolkGuitar]

I think a relaxed stance, exactly in between amused and bemused is best.

By all means follow directions,

I don't speak any Thai, and I can't understand any English spoken by Thais.

You'd be amazed how quickly Thai officials want to get rid of me.

I'm as cooperative as someone who has no idea can be.

If I could only understand their directions, I would be more than pleased to follow them.

('I'm sorry I don't understand what you want', my own version of 'arai na')

Is it quicker than if you just showed them your ID? Perhaps you just prefer to create problems...

I will comply because I have to but it is a stain on this country as it turns into a police/army state and freedoms and rights vanish

Are you suggesting that bars in your home country never get raided by police checking ID's, looking for under-age drinkers?

Although a 'city' by definition, Chiang Mai is a small town by size, and even smaller by expat population, and so anything that happens in one of its famous bars gets talked about by the expats. There aren't 5,000 bars and clubs that exist in NYC, L.A., London, or Sidney. There are really only a handful of "well known' bars and clubs, so anything that happens in one of them makes big news.

The sky really isn't falling...

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I think a relaxed stance, exactly in between amused and bemused is best.

By all means follow directions,

I don't speak any Thai, and I can't understand any English spoken by Thais.

You'd be amazed how quickly Thai officials want to get rid of me.

I'm as cooperative as someone who has no idea can be.

If I could only understand their directions, I would be more than pleased to follow them.

('I'm sorry I don't understand what you want', my own version of 'arai na')

Is it quicker than if you just showed them your ID? Perhaps you just prefer to create problems...

I will comply because I have to but it is a stain on this country as it turns into a police/army state and freedoms and rights vanish

Myeah.. although you do need to have rights first before they can vanish.

(It's always been a police/army state. And the country's disfunction is also one of the main attractions, on many levels.)

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Are you suggesting that bars in your home country never get raided by police checking ID's, looking for under-age drinkers?

YES. Duh!

That's not to say there are no efforts to enforce laws against underage drinking, but -having half a brain- they do this by checking that bars check ID when needed. That can be done quickly, informally and without spinning a full blown razzia on a nightlife area! That is certifiably insane, and anyone who wants to be a part of that (police volunteer, etc.) is highly suspect in his morals and common sense.

Edited March 30, 2016 by WinnieTheKhwai

[heybruce]

Note that nothing in Winnie's post implies that the purpose of the raids was to extract bribes from foreigners. Nor were there any reports of that happening.

We were referring to Brit tims post number 46, where he claimed as such

He said that the reason for the raids was to make foreigners pay bribe money, we all seem to agree that that is a false allegation

Unless you look big picture...

Pressure on businesses to 'comply' and in turn pay bribes.. Paid for by the business provided by customers..

So often every aspect of high prices we pay in imported goods includes a bribe factor.. I was talking to someone who imports commercially and the bribe rates he has to pay, to not get messed around, are eye watering..

Shaking down individuals is too difficult and inefficient--many of them slip through the net. It's much easier and profitable to shake down the businesses and let them pass the cost on to the customers.

Highly visible raids on businesses is also bad for the corruption business. I assume the "shakedowns" occur in the form of monthly visits to the businesses where envelopes are expected. If the envelopes are not offered or are light, then the raids and other problems begin.

[FolkGuitar]

Note that nothing in Winnie's post implies that the purpose of the raids was to extract bribes from foreigners. Nor were there any reports of that happening.

We were referring to Brit tims post number 46, where he claimed as such

He said that the reason for the raids was to make foreigners pay bribe money, we all seem to agree that that is a false allegation

Unless you look big picture...

Pressure on businesses to 'comply' and in turn pay bribes.. Paid for by the business provided by customers..

So often every aspect of high prices we pay in imported goods includes a bribe factor.. I was talking to someone who imports commercially and the bribe rates he has to pay, to not get messed around, are eye watering..

Shaking down individuals is too difficult and inefficient--many of them slip through the net. It's much easier and profitable to shake down the businesses and let them pass the cost on to the customers.

Highly visible raids on businesses is also bad for the corruption business. I assume the "shakedowns" occur in the form of monthly visits to the businesses where envelopes are expected. If the envelopes are not offered or are light, then the raids and other problems begin.

Have you seen 'monthly' raids on the same bars? Would you please tell us which bars have been repeatedly raided every month? Seems to me that I only see one or two expat bars, and one Thai club that get police visits once or twice a year. Are the other several hundred bars NOT raided? If not, why not? Or are they just not news-worthy....

[FolkGuitar]

Are you suggesting that bars in your home country never get raided by police checking ID's, looking for under-age drinkers?

YES. Duh!

That's not to say there are no efforts to enforce laws against underage drinking, but -having half a brain- they do this by checking that bars check ID when needed. That can be done quickly, informally and without spinning a full blown razzia on a nightlife area! That is certifiably insane, and anyone who wants to be a part of that (police volunteer, etc.) is highly suspect in his morals and common sense.

Riiiight.... Police never check individual IDs in the US or the UK...

So when it happens once or twice a YEAR here it makes big news? Sorry, not in my book. It's just police doing what police all over the world do, and TV posters over reacting to it exactly the way TV posters usually do. Nothing new.

[MadMac]

Other people pay for adventure parks, a bar raid with automatic guns comes for free....something you can tell your grand kids

[heybruce]

We were referring to Brit tims post number 46, where he claimed as such

He said that the reason for the raids was to make foreigners pay bribe money, we all seem to agree that that is a false allegation

Unless you look big picture...

Pressure on businesses to 'comply' and in turn pay bribes.. Paid for by the business provided by customers..

So often every aspect of high prices we pay in imported goods includes a bribe factor.. I was talking to someone who imports commercially and the bribe rates he has to pay, to not get messed around, are eye watering..

Shaking down individuals is too difficult and inefficient--many of them slip through the net. It's much easier and profitable to shake down the businesses and let them pass the cost on to the customers.

Highly visible raids on businesses is also bad for the corruption business. I assume the "shakedowns" occur in the form of monthly visits to the businesses where envelopes are expected. If the envelopes are not offered or are light, then the raids and other problems begin.

Have you seen 'monthly' raids on the same bars? Would you please tell us which bars have been repeatedly raided every month? Seems to me that I only see one or two expat bars, and one Thai club that get police visits once or twice a year. Are the other several hundred bars NOT raided? If not, why not? Or are they just not news-worthy....

Did you not understand my second paragraph?

Edited March 30, 2016 by heybruce

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Other people pay for adventure parks, a bar raid with automatic guns comes for free....something you can tell your grand kids

Yeah.. that's been sort of a pet theory of mine for a while: that the biggest threat to Thai tourism (from Western countries) isn't the junta, martial law, tourist deaths and any other insanity that Thailand tends to come up with regularly, it's the perception that Thailand has become a boring, safe and over-touristed place where even your granny goes on holiday.

So in some way all the corruption, lunacy and abject cluelessness on the part of the RTP and Army is actually helping that market segment. Every time they raid a club of elderly bridge players, take automatic rifles to a couple tourist bars, detain dissenters for re-education and screw up one criminal investigation after the other, they are fighting the image that Thailand is turning into a safe, boring, well-managed place.

That makes it cool again to visit Thailand.

(That said, it doesn't work on all segments of the tourism market. Specifically not the segments authorities claim to want to encourage. )

Edited March 30, 2016 by WinnieTheKhwai

[jagi00]

Well, your passport number links to your arrival record and everything else.

So by plugging it into their incredible online systems they'd quickly see if you're on overstay; better actually than some grainy photocopy.

It's not an exact science though.. police can and do make up the rules on the spot.

Still, with both a driver's license and passport copy you'd have to be very unlucky indeed for them to hassle you.

Mr K carries his driver's licence, but he would have a problem - dual nationality. When he got his licence, years ago, he used his Australian passport because we had entered the country on it. When he got to the magical age to get his retirement visa, for various complicated reasons he used his British passport. We really should sort out the kind of miniature laminated card with photo page one side and visa the other side that FolkGuitarist has mentioned a couple of times. He refuses to have a smart phone and his ancient Nokia doesn't hold photo's.

(And I never have my phone in the bedroom, so he'd be in the clink until the next morning when I see I have missed calls and see that I have to take his passport to the station.)

Similarly some of us carry 2 passports and or burn through them in less years than a Thai DL.. I know my DL doesn't have my passport number on it..

my Thai DL has my passport number on it - check the ID number my passport number is prefixed by 009 which maybe a country code.

[BritManToo]

Are you suggesting that bars in your home country never get raided by police checking ID's, looking for under-age drinkers?

I've not been in many 'expat bars' in Thailand where anyone could be thought to be under age.

Edited March 30, 2016 by BritManToo

[MadMac]

Imagine they would charge 500B farang price for it, the outcry....

[LannaGuy]

Are you suggesting that bars in your home country never get raided by police checking ID's, looking for under-age drinkers?

Although a 'city' by definition, Chiang Mai is a small town by size, and even smaller by expat population, and so anything that happens in one of its famous bars gets talked about by the expats. There aren't 5,000 bars and clubs that exist in NYC, L.A., London, or Sidney. There are really only a handful of "well known' bars and clubs, so anything that happens in one of them makes big news.

The sky really isn't falling...

Yes I am... there is NO requirement in my country to carry ID as it is considered an infringement of civil liberty as in the USA I am quite shocked that you support this kind of harassment as normally I like your posts

[Rotweiler]

All current foreigner driver's licenses in Thailand carry that person's passport number preceded by a three digit nation of origin cope. It is a Thai Land Transportation regulation that you must inform your local Land Transportation office when your passport number changes. You are then issued with a new diver's license with that new passport number on it.

[MadMac]

All current foreigner driver's licenses in Thailand carry that person's passport number preceded by a three digit nation of origin cope. It is a Thai Land Transportation regulation that you must inform your local Land Transportation office when your passport number changes. You are then issued with a new diver's license with that new passport number on it.

Don't think that is enforced in any way. I still have my old company address on the DL, nobody would even know what I want if I'd go to DLT. So forget it....

Will try to get the 13 digits Thai ID on the new one due in May. Let's see how this goes.

[FolkGuitar]

Shaking down individuals is too difficult and inefficient--many of them slip through the net. It's much easier and profitable to shake down the businesses and let them pass the cost on to the customers.

Highly visible raids on businesses is also bad for the corruption business. I assume the "shakedowns" occur in the form of monthly visits to the businesses where envelopes are expected. If the envelopes are not offered or are light, then the raids and other problems begin.

Have you seen 'monthly' raids on the same bars? Would you please tell us which bars have been repeatedly raided every month? Seems to me that I only see one or two expat bars, and one Thai club that get police visits once or twice a year. Are the other several hundred bars NOT raided? If not, why not? Or are they just not news-worthy....

Did you not understand my second paragraph?

Excuse me for not addressing that. I guess you are privy to secrete information that no one else receives. How many different bars are giving these envelopes each month? Which ones are they?

Please... verify your sources or have the decency to tell us that this is supposition on your part, or that you 'heard it from the sister-in-law of your gardener's wife.'

[heybruce]

Shaking down individuals is too difficult and inefficient--many of them slip through the net. It's much easier and profitable to shake down the businesses and let them pass the cost on to the customers.

Highly visible raids on businesses is also bad for the corruption business. I assume the "shakedowns" occur in the form of monthly visits to the businesses where envelopes are expected. If the envelopes are not offered or are light, then the raids and other problems begin.

Have you seen 'monthly' raids on the same bars? Would you please tell us which bars have been repeatedly raided every month? Seems to me that I only see one or two expat bars, and one Thai club that get police visits once or twice a year. Are the other several hundred bars NOT raided? If not, why not? Or are they just not news-worthy....

Did you not understand my second paragraph?

Excuse me for not addressing that. I guess you are privy to secrete information that no one else receives. How many different bars are giving these envelopes each month? Which ones are they?

Please... verify your sources or have the decency to tell us that this is supposition on your part, or that you 'heard it from the sister-in-law of your gardener's wife.'

One bar owner I know boasted that he paid his bribes directly to the chief of police. That was years ago, and he's still in business. I also have a Thai friend and business owner who gives monthly envelopes to the police, the police then sign a paper left in the business's mail box each night to show that they "did their job" and went down the street at least once that night. However if you're asking for copies of the receipts the police give for accepting bribes--no, I can't provide them.

I've also witnessed what happens when a bar displeases the police. Last year during the second day of Songkran I was at Rush bar about 10 pm. Several police showed up and did a walk through. Apparently they didn't find anything, so they left and returned twenty minutes later to set up a police checkpoint on the street in front of the bar. The crowd disappeared quickly. No one would explain why they did this. Other bars in the area kept operating well past legal closing time. I assume the threat of having a police checkpoint placed immediately outside a bar on a recurring basis is enough to keep bar owners in line.

Edited March 30, 2016 by heybruce

[BritManToo]

Excuse me for not addressing that. I guess you are privy to secrete information that no one else receives. How many different bars are giving these envelopes each month? Which ones are they?

As far as I know, every bar in CM donates to the police every month, Thai bar and foreigner bar, or else they don't open. The size of the donation seems to vary depending on the 'iffyness' of each bar's operations.

I believe most business have to pay up, certainly hotels, restaurants and guest houses are included in the monthly collections.

Edited March 30, 2016 by BritManToo

[totally thaied up]

Shaking down individuals is too difficult and inefficient--many of them slip through the net. It's much easier and profitable to shake down the businesses and let them pass the cost on to the customers.

Highly visible raids on businesses is also bad for the corruption business. I assume the "shakedowns" occur in the form of monthly visits to the businesses where envelopes are expected. If the envelopes are not offered or are light, then the raids and other problems begin.

Have you seen 'monthly' raids on the same bars? Would you please tell us which bars have been repeatedly raided every month? Seems to me that I only see one or two expat bars, and one Thai club that get police visits once or twice a year. Are the other several hundred bars NOT raided? If not, why not? Or are they just not news-worthy....

Did you not understand my second paragraph?

Excuse me for not addressing that. I guess you are privy to secrete information that no one else receives. How many different bars are giving these envelopes each month? Which ones are they?

Please... verify your sources or have the decency to tell us that this is supposition on your part, or that you 'heard it from the sister-in-law of your gardener's wife.'

That is laughable and you have been here how many years???

Sure I see stuff but I am not going to open my mouth up in a open forum to strangers that have no idea.

Then you say if you have ID, everything is okay? You obviously do not go out after 9pm in Bangkok or other areas down South. Chiang Mai is treated differently but this is for a totally different reason.

I think you have not been in Bangkok Night Clubs when they are raided. Doors are looked, heavily armed police show up, ID's for all are shown, you are given a cup to piss into, your belongs are searched, your patted down for drugs and weapons. My partner and I even have had our car searched and bike searched on two different times after we walked out the night club after the raids. It certainly does not happen like this in the West but then, they use to cap drug dealers in the Philippines during such raids 20 years ago.

I know plenty of guys here that if that the wrong people get a bee in there bonnet over you, life gets very hard. There are a subset of rules here; one of some people and other for the rest.

Nothing is what is seems to be here and until that point that you understand, you are on your own here if you get in trouble if you do not know people or you do not have money.

[true blue]

the going rate for donations by most bars to the police benevolment fund is about 1000bht,and they do get a notifaction in there mail box,of thanks.

[FolkGuitar]

Excuse me for not addressing that. I guess you are privy to secrete information that no one else receives. How many different bars are giving these envelopes each month? Which ones are they?

As far as I know, every bar in CM donates to the police every month, Thai bar and foreigner bar, or else they don't open. The size of the donation seems to vary depending on the 'iffyness' of each bar's operations.

I believe most business have to pay up, certainly hotels, restaurants and guest houses are included in the monthly collections.

I'll agree that many expats here on ThaiVisa believe that to be true...

Many also believe they are being targeted by the police because they are foreigners. Many also believe that the actions of the police, the dangerous tourist attractions, and the way the after-accident follow-up are handled are destroying the tourist industry People are certainly free to believe what they wish.

I ran a tourist-oriented business in Thailand for ten years before I retired. My business catered to tourists, local expats doing business here in Thailand, tourist venues and hotels in northern Thailand, and several magazines. I never had anyone come in trying to extort money.

I guess I was just lucky. For ten years...

[FolkGuitar]

I think you have not been in Bangkok Night Clubs when they are raided. Doors are looked, heavily armed police show up, ID's for all are shown, you are given a cup to piss into, your belongs are searched, your patted down for drugs and weapons. .........

And the reason this did NOT get reported in the news was.... ?

Here in Thailand, when a card game gets raided it's front page stuff that merits 15 pages of comments.

The Police are not going to pass up the chance to show that they are on top of things. Raids get reported... often before they even happen.

So why didn't this one, as you make it seem as if it's a regular Saturday night event? Certainly if it happened OFTEN we'd hear about it OFTEN. In Chiang Mai, if it happens ONCE, we hear about it often...

But you are correct about one thing. I have never been in a bar in Bangkok. For that matter, I've never been in a bar in Chiang Mai, either. I don't drink often enough to want to, preferring to drink at occasional private gatherings or a bottle of wine with dinner instead.

Edited March 30, 2016 by FolkGuitar

[totally thaied up]

I think you have not been in Bangkok Night Clubs when they are raided. Doors are looked, heavily armed police show up, ID's for all are shown, you are given a cup to piss into, your belongs are searched, your patted down for drugs and weapons. .........

And the reason this did NOT get reported in the news was.... ?

Here in Thailand, when a card game gets raided it's front page stuff that merits 15 pages of comments.

The Police are not going to pass up the chance to show that they are on top of things. Raids get reported... often before they even happen.

So why didn't this one, as you make it seem as if it's a regular Saturday night event? Certainly if it happened OFTEN we'd hear about it OFTEN. In Chiang Mai, if it happens ONCE, we hear about it often...

But you are correct about one thing. I have never been in a bar in Bangkok. For that matter, I've never been in a bar in Chiang Mai, either. I don't drink often enough to want to, preferring to drink at occasional private gatherings or a bottle of wine with dinner instead.

Yes, things that effect farangs get reported but hardly any of this gets into the news as it is normal stuff. Things in Thai only areas is generally Thai business only. I can tell you of bashing, knife incidents that don't make it anywhere near the papers. Things in certain clubs and the such just do go unnoticed here. It goes on a lot more then most think in Thai Night Club areas (were very few farang go) and does not get reported. Several of my business class farang friends in Bangkok who hang around these areas also have reported this happening to them in certain Thai venues over the years.

I am correct on what I have said. Things are not said here but you are in the wrong circle to see this. You most never have been pulled up at 11.30pm coming home on drug stops hidden away in the back streets here in Chiang Mai. Your stopped, your bike or car is searched from head to toe. Helmets are checked for drugs and your wallet and even pockets are turned inside out. Has not happened to me for about 12 months but it has happened before.

[FolkGuitar]

I think you have not been in Bangkok Night Clubs when they are raided. Doors are looked, heavily armed police show up, ID's for all are shown, you are given a cup to piss into, your belongs are searched, your patted down for drugs and weapons. .........

And the reason this did NOT get reported in the news was.... ?

Here in Thailand, when a card game gets raided it's front page stuff that merits 15 pages of comments.

The Police are not going to pass up the chance to show that they are on top of things. Raids get reported... often before they even happen.

So why didn't this one, as you make it seem as if it's a regular Saturday night event? Certainly if it happened OFTEN we'd hear about it OFTEN. In Chiang Mai, if it happens ONCE, we hear about it often...

But you are correct about one thing. I have never been in a bar in Bangkok. For that matter, I've never been in a bar in Chiang Mai, either. I don't drink often enough to want to, preferring to drink at occasional private gatherings or a bottle of wine with dinner instead.

I am correct on what I have said. Things are not said here but you are in the wrong circle to see this. You most never have been pulled up at 11.30pm coming home on drug stops hidden away in the back streets here in Chiang Mai. Your stopped, your bike or car is searched from head to toe. Helmets are checked for drugs and your wallet and even pockets are turned inside out. Has not happened to me for about 12 months but it has happened before.

On the contrary, I've often been coming home late at night. Just not from bars. We play music together often, in one home or another, so at least once or twice a week find myself riding home after midnight. And often getting stopped by roadblocks on the back streets of town... Santitham, Nong Hoi, Mae Hia, Suthep, etc.... Over the years there have been a LOT of stops at roadblocks. But I've never been searched. Even you state that it hasn't happened to you in a year. Doesn't sound as if the Police are riding rough-shod on anyone. Sure people get searched, IF the police suspect that the person is loaded, driving after drinking, or otherwise impaired. That's police work, not the Gestapo tactics expats like to rant about.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Today was in two bars that had police come in. Both bars with a party going on. Music off, some negotiations, then they were on their way again and things got going again.

Utter low-lifes.

[Compo]

Let me illustrate my experiences over the last three days, which can quell several points and hopefully save a few posters from future grief.

In a relatively close nearby border town, I was stopped at 9a.m. at a routine but serious checkpoint, riding a small bike.

I did not have my drivers licence ( or passport ) with me.

Because of no DL, I was invited to pay 200 baht cash or 500 for a ticket payable at the cop shop.

I was certainly targeted as a foreigner, as were all the Burmese.

Out of 50 or so that I witnessed, only two Thai people.

I said I would pay the 500 ticket but as I was about to do so, my wife who was following in the car and who had my wallet with DL in the drivers door, stopped and entered the fray.

I showed my DL and the cops insisted now that I pay the 200 or they would not give back the DL.

We argued with them and pointed out that in fact, in law, you DO NOT have to carry the DL but are allowed a grace period of 24hrs ( or so ) to produce it.

Cops disagreed and a Thai on Thai shouting match ensued.

I tried to calm it all down, paid the 200, got back the DL and thinking all was well, she got in the car and drove off.

Before I could get on my bike i was pushed into a police car and forcibly breathalised.

I failed the breath test and was arrested.

I spent the whole day, mainly in the cells, trying to get bail.

Eventually I did at about 5pm on 20,000 cash security.

My passport was in Chiangmai.

Eventually I was formally charged with drunk driving and processed for court the next day.

I was NOT charged with failure to produce DL or passport on demand, and I believe I would have been, if they had been chargeable offensives, as they were about to throw the book at me.

It was about 9am, I do drink, sometimes to excess but I never drive drunk.

The previous night I had had 1 large beer, 3 glasses of wine and, at most, 3 large scotches followed by 9 hrs deep sleep, a good breakfast and several coffees in the morning.

I could have been over the breath test limit but also the breath test machine could have been tampered with to get the desired result.

All you have to do is put a couple of drops of booze down the blow pipe and the next person tested is screwed.

I do know that, clearly wrongly, we argued a point with the officer in charge and at the earliest moment he made his move.

I was taken to court the next day and subsequently received a fine of 5,000 baht, a two month prison sentence suspended for 12 months and my DL suspended for six months.

I do not think i was over the limit, but I could of been, I'm not quite sure about how a body metabolizes alcohol over a 9-10hr time period.

I don't know that the testing machine had been tampered with, but it certainly could have been and they had the time and the loss of face motive to do so, if they wished.

I tried to insist on a blood test as the only way to accurately determine blood alcohol levels and was refused.

Before the usual sanctimonious, holier than than thou, deaf guitarists and other opinionated fools joyously leap on misfortune, I would like to offer the following.

It was very clearly stated to me, by the Judge, that a mandatory jail sentence will be imposed for dui offences over Songkran, nationwide.

Could be 14 days could be 30 days, but get caught, you WILL go to jail.

The AxxHxle cop, who we stupidly provoked, could have stitched me very well.

The refusal of blood test, despite my insistence, says a lot.

The Court is not interested in ANY discussion, debate or who you are.

Their sentencing rules are clear and mandatory.

You will be given the option to involve a lawyer, but only by the judge, when you are in court.

That's a bit late.....

The presence of Army guys everywhere makes it impossible to do what could have been a few years ago, to make a problem go away....

Only the rich now have that option.

I've been here 25 yrs and run a big company with about 130 staff.

I have just had a salutory and very chastening experience and I pass it on to you lot.

I hope it won't change my odds of staying here, but in future it could.

One last point, as you go through the process, you are fingerprinted, no big deal, except all the the detail written on those forms is written in pencil but you sign in ink and the pencil can be changed at any time in the future.

Think about that....

I offer this as information and do not want to read sanctimonious rubbish responses from those who lost a "friend" to a drunk driver while they were in Vietnam killing gooks, or whatever.

I am very happy to respond to serious questions.

[jonwilly]

Not wise to become confrontational with Thai Uniforms, they will not 'Loose Face'.

john

[FolkGuitar]

This one deserves no comment. It speaks for itself.