moving from germany to thailand, online work

[falang07]

The fact that the business is based overseas and receives income overseas is completely irrelevant. If the foreigner is physically in Thailand when they are working at their occupation they require permission.

Just because immigration currently tolerate this kind of work does not make it legal.

And it is not illegal either, I would call is a grey zone, like many things in Thailand. Do not worry, just do your work and no one really cares since you do not take any work from the Thais and it is not subject to Thai income tax either.

[falang07]

Also, I can not imagine how could anyone prove that a freelancer is working if he/she does that only at home. It is absolutely impossible. If you do not have a shop/deal with Thai customers, unless you tell them you work at home, there is absolutely no way to prove if you work, or if you just play with the computer/program some code for fun.

[JLCrab]

Whether one can or cannot work remotely online while physically in Thailand on a tourist visa -- and whether either Labour or Immigration really cares -- becomes moot if one can no longer obtain the umpteenth consecutive tourist visa at a Thai Embassy/Consulate ex-Thailand ... and the notion of "not taking a job away from a Thai person" as any point of qualifying factor is most likely urban myth.

Edited April 2, 2016 by JLCrab

[elviajero]

The fact that the business is based overseas and receives income overseas is completely irrelevant. If the foreigner is physically in Thailand when they are working at their occupation they require permission.

Just because immigration currently tolerate this kind of work does not make it legal.

And it is not illegal either, I would call is a grey zone, like many things in Thailand. Do not worry, just do your work and no one really cares since you do not take any work from the Thais and it is not subject to Thai income tax either.

Also, I can not imagine how could anyone prove that a freelancer is working if he/she does that only at home. It is absolutely impossible. If you do not have a shop/deal with Thai customers, unless you tell them you work at home, there is absolutely no way to prove if you work, or if you just play with the computer/program some code for fun.

There is no "grey zone" and unless you can prove that foreigners living in Thailand and working online for a overseas business/employer are exempt from the Immigration Act then these workers are working illegally. It doesn't matter if the foreigner isn't taking a job from a Thai and Income tax may be assessable and due for tax residents.

There are several reasons why Immigration allow these workers to work and the impracticality of tracking down and prosecuting them is probably atop the list, however, it would be easy to prove in many cases. And the reasons they don't prohibit or prosecute this work has no impact on the legality of the work.

Edited April 3, 2016 by elviajero

[jspill]

The fact that the business is based overseas and receives income overseas is completely irrelevant. If the foreigner is physically in Thailand when they are working at their occupation they require permission.

Just because immigration currently tolerate this kind of work does not make it legal.

And it is not illegal either, I would call is a grey zone, like many things in Thailand. Do not worry, just do your work and no one really cares since you do not take any work from the Thais and it is not subject to Thai income tax either.

Also, I can not imagine how could anyone prove that a freelancer is working if he/she does that only at home. It is absolutely impossible. If you do not have a shop/deal with Thai customers, unless you tell them you work at home, there is absolutely no way to prove if you work, or if you just play with the computer/program some code for fun.

There is no "grey zone" and unless you can prove that foreigners living in Thailand and working online for a overseas business/employer are exempt from the Immigration Act then these workers are working illegally. It doesn't matter if the foreigner isn't taking a job from a Thai and Income tax may be assessable and due for tax residents.

There are several reasons why Immigration allow these workers to work and the impracticality of tracking down and prosecuting them is probably atop the list, however, it would be easy to prove in many cases. And the reasons they don't prohibit or prosecute this work has no impact on the legality of the work.

You can't prove that the immigration act applies to working online for overseas client either, it doesn't explicitly say that.

[jspill]

And it is not illegal either, I would call is a grey zone, like many things in Thailand. Do not worry, just do your work and no one really cares since you do not take any work from the Thais and it is not subject to Thai income tax either.

Correct answer.

[elviajero]

You can't prove that the immigration act applies to working online for overseas client either, it doesn't explicitly say that.

Yes I can, and it doesn't need to specify all the different ways to work remotely. All occupations are covered unless explicitly excluded.

IMMIGRATION ACT

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following :

1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General . If , in any case , there is a law concerning alien employment provided hereafter , the granting of work privileges must comply with the law concerned.

Assuming "working online for an overseas client" is an occupation it needs permission. In case you don't understand the meaning/intention of 'Occupation', here it is:-

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=occupation

Occupation

noun

1. a job or profession.

"people in professional occupations"

synonyms:

job, day job, profession, work, line of work, line of business, trade, employment, position, post, situation, business, career, métier, vocation, calling, craft, skill, field.....

If any type of remote work (however you want to call it today) was exempt it would be specified within the act or possibly via Ministerial Regulation, which it isn't. So all we have is a law that says that you cannot work whilst in Thailand without permission. Whether or not Immigration choose to enforce the law, or cannot practically enforce it for this group of workers, is irrelevant.

[jspill]

'Employment or occupation' there, common sense would dictate, means being employed by a Thai entity, or hold an occupation in Thailand with a Thai employer.

[jspill]

Definitely reads as if it concerns part time ('temporary') or full time occupations for resident Thai entities, you assume it doesn't, I assume it does, but no one has proof, you and I are not the voice of Thai immigration, a judge has the last word. It remains a grey area.

[JLCrab]

In specifying a 'purpose of visit' on an application for obtaining a tourist visa to Thailand, doing online work while in Thailand for a Thai entity in Thailand and being paid via some financial institution in Thailand should be considered as 'work' or an 'occupation'. Doing online work while in Thailand on a tourist visa for some entity not in Thailand and being paid via some financial institution not in Thailand should be considered as 'pleasure'.

Thus it has previously been written.

Edited April 3, 2016 by JLCrab

[jspill]

^ I'd consider that being a tourist, the UNWTO definition of tourism is travel for any purpose other than being employed by a resident entity in said country.

One could avoid remitting monies to Thailand while there, that would remove the 'paid via a financial institution' part, and all tax liability.

[JLCrab]

^ I'd consider that being a tourist, the UNWTO definition of tourism is travel for any purpose other than being employed by a resident entity in said country.

One could avoid remitting monies to Thailand while there, that would remove the 'paid via a financial institution' part, and all tax liability.

Yes -- and once again you conveniently leave out the part of that UNWTO definition which specifies that such visitor is outside of his usual environment for less than a year.

[elviajero]

'Employment or occupation' there, common sense would dictate, means being employed by a Thai entity, or hold an occupation in Thailand with a Thai employer.

Definitely reads as if it concerns part time ('temporary') or full time occupations for resident Thai entities, you assume it doesn't, I assume it does, but no one has proof, you and I are not the voice of Thai immigration, a judge has the last word. It remains a grey area.

No. Common sense dictates that they specify 'occupation' OR 'employment' to stop a foreigner from carrying out any form of work without permission. If it just said 'employment' it wouldn't prevent a foreigner from self employment. And if 'occupation' was limited to Thai based businesses it would say so.

I'm not assuming anything. I am reading a law that says I cannot engage in my occupation without permission. It's black and white! You're the only one making assumptions.

The act is outdated and I'm sure that if/when it gets amended that this situation of remote work, that didn't exist 37 years ago, will be addressed. Until then the law is clear and remote work is not excluded from the act.

[jspill]

^ I'd consider that being a tourist, the UNWTO definition of tourism is travel for any purpose other than being employed by a resident entity in said country.

One could avoid remitting monies to Thailand while there, that would remove the 'paid via a financial institution' part, and all tax liability.

Yes -- and once again you conveniently leave out the part of that UNWTO definition which specifies that such visitor is outside of his usual environment for less than a year.

I leave the country every 90 days anyway for border runs, so the definition of tourism still applies. Never here for over a year consecutively, and occasionally return to my usual environment.

[JLCrab]

We've been through this one before -- My observation is that Thai Labour and Immigration have both told Ministry of Foreign Affairs that, if your Embassies and Consulates abroad are willing to hand out tourist visas like Halloween candy, don't expect us to do anything as to what these 'tourists' do while in Thailand on those visas once they get here.

[jspill]

We've been through this one before -- My observation is that Thai Labour and Immigration have both told Ministry of Foreign Affairs that, if your Embassies and Consulates abroad are willing to hand out tourist visas like Halloween candy, don't expect us to do anything as to what these 'tourists' do while in Thailand on those visas once they get here.

Yeah, so digital nomads should keep doing what they're doing, until if and when something changes.

It's de facto legal, if the law (if elviajero is correct) isn't being enforced anyway / is unenforcable / not a priority.

[JLCrab]

^ I'd consider that being a tourist, the UNWTO definition of tourism is travel for any purpose other than being employed by a resident entity in said country.

One could avoid remitting monies to Thailand while there, that would remove the 'paid via a financial institution' part, and all tax liability.

Yes -- and once again you conveniently leave out the part of that UNWTO definition which specifies that such visitor is outside of his usual environment for less than a year.

I leave the country every 90 days anyway for border runs, so the definition of tourism still applies. Never here for over a year consecutively, and occasionally return to my usual environment.

I would guess that their definition of 'usual environment' would be the country from which you hold a passport and that your stay in your 'usual environment' by the UNWTO definition is your remaining in your usual environment for at least as long as you have been away from your usual environment. If your 'usual environment' is not the country of your passport and you only stay in your 'usual environment' long enough to send clothes to the laundry, then fine but then you do not meet the UNWTO definition of 'visitor' which is the one you quote as 'tourist'.

[johnatong]

We've been through this one before -- My observation is that Thai Labour and Immigration have both told Ministry of Foreign Affairs that, if your Embassies and Consulates abroad are willing to hand out tourist visas like Halloween candy, don't expect us to do anything as to what these 'tourists' do while in Thailand on those visas once they get here.

Yeah, so digital nomads should keep doing what they're doing, until if and when something changes.

It's de facto legal, if the law (if elviajero is correct) isn't being enforced anyway / is unenforcable / not a priority.

Yep ! All the DN has to do now is obtain serial tourist visas/visa exempt entries until they are prevented from getting any more !

The "easy" days of the DN are now in the past !

[JLCrab]

We've been through this one before -- My observation is that Thai Labour and Immigration have both told Ministry of Foreign Affairs that, if your Embassies and Consulates abroad are willing to hand out tourist visas like Halloween candy, don't expect us to do anything as to what these 'tourists' do while in Thailand on those visas once they get here.

Yeah, so digital nomads should keep doing what they're doing, until if and when something changes.

It's de facto legal, if the law (if elviajero is correct) isn't being enforced anyway / is unenforcable / not a priority.

They can do whatever they want AFAIAC -- I do not believe that Immigration and Labour really care what anyone does as long as someone can be in Thailand for 5 years or longer on nothing but a succession of tourist visas.

Edited April 3, 2016 by JLCrab

[elviajero]

^ I'd consider that being a tourist, the UNWTO definition of tourism is travel for any purpose other than being employed by a resident entity in said country.

One could avoid remitting monies to Thailand while there, that would remove the 'paid via a financial institution' part, and all tax liability.

Yes -- and once again you conveniently leave out the part of that UNWTO definition which specifies that such visitor is outside of his usual environment for less than a year.

I leave the country every 90 days anyway for border runs, so the definition of tourism still applies. Never here for over a year consecutively, and occasionally return to my usual environment.

I wasn't aware that Thai authorities use the UNWTO definition of tourism.

I believe that Thai authorities consider a tourist to be a short term visitor that returns home between visits and doesn't live in Thailand. For example:-

Thawatchai Changoern - “He urged tourists who plan on staying in Thailand longer to get a tourist visa, either in their home countries or in neighboring countries such as Laos, Cambodia or Malaysia. But again he noted, this is for tourists and that those wishing to stay long term must get a long term visa.”

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/458/news.shtml#hd1

[JLCrab]

Thailand has been a Member State of the UNWTO since 1996. The UNWTO makes a distinction between a visitor (tourist) and a traveller. Someone staying in Thailand long-term is more likely under the UNWTO definitions to be considered a traveller and not a visitor (tourist).

Edited April 3, 2016 by JLCrab

[jspill]

I wasn't aware that Thai authorities use the UNWTO definition of tourism.

I believe that Thai authorities consider a tourist to be a short term visitor that returns home between visits and doesn't live in Thailand. For example:-

Thawatchai Changoern - “He urged tourists who plan on staying in Thailand longer to get a tourist visa, either in their home countries or in neighboring countries such as Laos, Cambodia or Malaysia. But again he noted, this is for tourists and that those wishing to stay long term must get a long term visa.”

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/458/news.shtml#hd1

Yet they apply no limits to back to back tourist visas at all.

You're using one quote from one person there, yet totally dismiss one another quote from the same news source saying we can work online on tourist visas. Seems you're clutching at straws, making all kinds of assumptions and spin, but when all's said and done you aren't an authority to state anything as fact. The smart conclusion to come to is that the law is currently in a grey area, unless you have some emotional reason to brand digital nomads as illegals.

Edited April 3, 2016 by jspill

[JLCrab]

The current visa application form from the Royal Thai Embassy in London states:

Purpose of Current Visit: ______________________

For Attention of Applicant:

I hereby confirm that the purpose of my visit to

Thailand is already identified in this application form and

the information given is correct and complete.

Signature _______________

Date ___________________

If in confirming that the purpose of current visit as requested is 'correct and complete' and you said that I am working online for a non-Thai entity and not taking away a job from a Thai citizen, that would be one thing. But you don't.

[elviajero]

I wasn't aware that Thai authorities use the UNWTO definition of tourism.

I believe that Thai authorities consider a tourist to be a short term visitor that returns home between visits and doesn't live in Thailand. For example:-

Thawatchai Changoern - “He urged tourists who plan on staying in Thailand longer to get a tourist visa, either in their home countries or in neighboring countries such as Laos, Cambodia or Malaysia. But again he noted, this is for tourists and that those wishing to stay long term must get a long term visa.”

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/458/news.shtml#hd1

Yet they apply no limits to back to back tourist visas at all.

You're using one quote from one person there, yet totally dismiss one another quote from the same news source saying we can work online on tourist visas. Seems you're clutching at straws, making all kinds of assumptions and spin, but when all's said and done you aren't an authority to state anything as fact, regardless of how many big words and bullet points you use. The smart conclusion to come to is that the law is currently in a grey area, unless you have some emotional reason to want digital nomads to be illegals.

LOL. The irony! You're the one that likes to quote these Chiang Mai sources.

• I made it clear that it was an "example" and the quote was relevant to the discussion.
• I didn't dismiss anything and am aware of the quote that you like to misquote via the asiancorrespondent site.
• I didn't state anything as fact I said "I believe".
• No I'm just a realist and accept that, although illegal, Immigration, for several reasons, allow DN's to work.

Interestingly from the same article:-

He noted that online work for overseas companies that pay overseas is not prohibited but that the person will need to get a visa to stay longer, currently there is no new visa for these kinds of people.

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/458/news.shtml#hd1

That statement says that you can work for an overseas company but only for a short time, because if you want to stay longer you need a visa, and as a visa isn't available you cant stay and work long term.

The law is black and white. Smart people, without the bias you show in every discussion, accept the situation for what it is. You are the one that constantly claims a "grey area" and I have the right to challenge your opinion, which I will continue to do. You fail time and time again to prove your a "grey area" and simply repeating the same mantra isn't going to change reality.

BTW they do limit back to back tourist visas via the Embassies/Consulates. And in case you missed it they have made it harder for people that want to live here using TR's. Having to trawl around SEA every 2/3 months to get a new Visa doesn't seem to be encouraging the perpetual tourist.

I think that people considering living here and working online should know the facts so they can make an informed decision. Telling people there is a grey area doesn't help anyone. The authorities could start enforcing the law tomorrow for all you know, and so far I believe it's only Chiang Mai Immigration that have publicly given the go ahead for DN's to work. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am anti DN's. If anything I am the one with their best interests at heart.

[Lammbock]

Just looking for a clean/legal setup so I don't run into any pb,

LOL you don't want to open a Thai company but still work in Thailand without WP? So what's clean & legal about that?

[manarak]

Just listen to Naam, he knows what he's talking about.

I have a similar setup (offshore company and offshore bank accounts), but I also have a Thai company and a work permit because I do conduct business in Thailand.

[jspill]

• I didn't state anything as fact I said "I believe"

If I recall you wrote you can 'prove' that remote work for overseas clients on a tourist visa is illegal. If you didn't then that's great, we're on the same track - It's all just our opinion.

I've actually been posting in Thaivisa threads like this for about 5 years now, here's to another 5 of working online here with zero issues.

[JLCrab]

• I didn't state anything as fact I said "I believe"

If I recall you wrote you can 'prove' that remote work for overseas clients on a tourist visa is illegal. If you didn't then that's great, we're on the same track - It's all just our opinion.

I've actually been posting in Thaivisa threads like this for about 5 years now, here's to another 5 of working online here with zero issues.

I agree -- as long as they continue to accept your false declarations on your tourist visa applications, you should continue to have zero issues.

[MobileContent]

I have been working online for the past 15 years in Thailand. Some times I even take in Thai clients and pay 15% withholding taxes WHICH I NEVER CLAIM back every year in March. I even have around 4 million Baht coming in per year in my Thai Bank account and often transferred by reputable Thai companies.

At times I work for 2-3 companies as a consultant in Thailand and they pay me all at the same time money in my Thai bank account. Never ever did I had a problem. Their is no way a farang can work for 2-4 companies in Thailand at the same time.

As for tourist visa or 30 days stamps on the airport, I have never done it. My visas are always None B-O.

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post.