Sometimes the "Thai Way" just Doesn't Work.....

[sstuff3]

We bought a house in a nice MooBaan in Bangkok 4 years ago. Pay the annual "maintenance fee" which is higher than most of the houses here since our land size is larger but tucked away in the corner of the MooBaan. In the 4 years we've been here the managements staff have cut the grass in the public garden in front of our house less than 5 times and most of those times were "after" my wife lodging complaints about it.

Last year I gave up trying to complain about it and decided to cut it myself after cutting my own lawn. This solution was fine with me until about 3 weeks ago when the management staff began watering the garden. I asked my wife to inform them that if they don't intend to cut it then they shouldn't water it. Besides watering it every day for the past 3 weeks, they leave the water hose laying spread out across the garden so I couldn't cut it even if I wanted to without having to roll up the hose.

This week we paid the annual fee again and my wife spoke to them about the lack of maintenance. That same day, the management staff were busy cutting the brush on the other side of the MooBaan exterior walls, which doesn't belong to the MooBaan and has no public access to (their justification for this is to prevent fires but in my opinion makes it easier for criminals to climb over the walls to burglarize the houses). The manager told her he would send the staff to cut the grass "today". He scoffed at her when she told him his staff hasn't cut the grass since the first of October and retreated when she offered to show him our cctv of me cutting it every 2 weeks. Two days have passed and the grass is still knee-high.

My patience has come to an end so I tell my wife that I will go talk to the manager myself. This leads to an argument because she doesn't understand why I am so upset about it. Apparently paying 20,000 baht a year for maintenance of the common areas is OK for her despite anyone actually doing what we are paying for. I walked to the management office and waited an hour for the manager to stop tooling around with his car before I approached him. I showed him a picture of the main garden in the MooBaan (on the entrance road) which is very well maintained and told him how beautiful it was. Then I showed him a picture of the public garden in front of my house and asked why it wasn't being maintained. Of course he didn't offer any explanation instead repeating "sorry sorry, we will cut today". I asked why after telling my wife the same thing 2 days ago I should believe him. He just repeated his "sorry Mister, we will cut today". I told him that after today he needs to make sure they return every 2 weeks to cut it again. He said OK. After going back home to an angry wife (angry at me for not letting it go), the workers arrived 10 minutes later and after 20 minutes of work the garden is nicely groomed.

I guess the true test will be whether they return in 2 weeks to keep it maintained. We'll see. Hopefully the wife will calm down soon but I don't think she will ever understand the point of my anger. Seems sometimes you have to confront people here if you want them to do something. The mei-pen-rai approach just doesn't work all the time.

Sorry for the long post. Rant over, for now.

Edited April 2, 2016 by CharlieH
introduced paragraphs to make it easier to read.

[CharlieH]

If it were me, I would refuse to pay the fee "annually" (if possible) and pay it monthly, and if the work isnt done, it wont get paid.

[shagorillaHotel]

perhaps you could grow veggies there instead since no one is interested in the space besides you

[sstuff3]

If it were me, I would refuse to pay the fee "annually" (if possible) and pay it monthly, and if the work isnt done, it wont get paid.

We've informed them that starting this year we will only pay it monthly after seeing the work done. Hopefully this approach will work. BTW - thanks for the edit, I didn't initially intend for the post to be so long.

[BritManToo]

I guess your wife is OK with you paying 20k.

But what if it were her paying 20k?

And, what CH says, pay monthly after the work is done.

And, no point getting angry, just don't pay.

Edited April 2, 2016 by BritManToo

[kannot]

Im surprised they havent complained about you cutting it yourself...........that seems to be the crap mentality by me of the locals.

[robertthebruce]

Hear what you are saying, DEFINETLY annoying......., the joys of relationships with another culture, somethings I find hard to grasp but it seems the norm.....

[attrayant]

Surely you can't be the only resident annoyed at the lack of maintenance you're paying for. Get some different people elected to the homeowner's association, or whatever they call it here, and then either force the labor to do their job or reduce the HOA fees to to more appropriate level.

Caveat: I'm speaking as a former HOA president from the USA, where things are a bit more democratic. Would that even be possible here?

[sstuff3]

Surely you can't be the only resident annoyed at the lack of maintenance you're paying for. Get some different people elected to the homeowner's association, or whatever they call it here, and then either force the labor to do their job or reduce the HOA fees to to more appropriate level.

Caveat: I'm speaking as a former HOA president from the USA, where things are a bit more democratic. Would that even be possible here?

There are only 5 house on my Soi and it is tucked away in the corner of the MooBaan. I also find it hard to believe that none of the others on the street have complained. Maybe they haven't complained since I've been taking care of it. One of them even has small children that play in the tall grass daily. Meipenrai

[Happy Grumpy]

I guess the true test will be whether they return in 2 weeks to keep it maintained. We'll see. Hopefully the wife will calm down soon but I don't think she will ever understand the point of my anger. Seems sometimes you have to confront people here if you want them to do something. The mei-pen-rai approach just doesn't work all the time.

Sounds like you're in for some Thai revenge.

It will be cowardly. Massively inconvenient. Comepletely behind your back by people that smile and greet you warmly. And may take years.

Beeing a bit money'd and foreign may save you from it.

Good luck khrap.

[Happy Grumpy]

If it were me, I would refuse to pay the fee "annually" (if possible) and pay it monthly, and if the work isnt done, it wont get paid.

Indeed.

The way to approach it would have been to meet the manager and say that you unfortunately have money problems, or are expecting them and would it be possile to pay the maintenance monthly as you don't want to fall behind or be unable to pay in the future.

No mention of any lack of work being done.

Then go down the route of paying as it's done.

[sstuff3]

No mention of any lack of work being done.

My point exactly is that approach doesn't work here all the time. "Stay quiet and don't mention the real problem" and hope beyond hope that the problem will somehow go away or someone will take responsibility. That Meipenrai attitude is the source of so many problems in this country and is evident in every area of life here, from government to the local food market. Sometimes people need to be straightforward to get them to open their eyes. Sometimes you have to call the kettle black if it's black. Edited April 2, 2016 by sstuff3

[sstuff3]

I guess your wife is OK with you paying 20k.

But what if it were her paying 20k?

And, what CH says, pay monthly after the work is done.

And, no point getting angry, just don't pay.

After being here more than 10 years and married to her for the last 5 years, I honestly doubt her response would be any different if she were the one paying.

[Happy Grumpy]

No mention of any lack of work being done.

My point exactly is that approach doesn't work here all the time. "Stay quiet and don't mention the real problem" and hope beyond hope that the problem will somehow go away or someone will take responsibility.

No, use your head and play it to your advantage. You've been given good advice about how you should have played it to your best over all advantage.

Most arrogant farangs are too up themselves to see the different ways things can be done. Shouting, stomping and screaming gets what they want in the very short term....

You lost this one. How much, will be seen over the coming years.

Best of luck. Hopefully they'll put your childish behavior down to being a childish farang, and not knowing how to properly behave.

[sstuff3]

No mention of any lack of work being done.

My point exactly is that approach doesn't work here all the time. "Stay quiet and don't mention the real problem" and hope beyond hope that the problem will somehow go away or someone will take responsibility.

No, use your head and play it to your advantage. You've been given good advice about how you should have played it to your best over all advantage.

Most arrogant farangs are too up themselves to see the different ways things can be done. Shouting, stomping and screaming gets what they want in the very short term....

You lost this one. How much, will be seen over the coming years.

Best of luck. Hopefully they'll put your childish behavior down to being a childish farang, and not knowing how to properly behave.

Wow, seems you misinterpreted what I wrote or maybe you just take a bad view of all foreigners here. There was no yelling, screaming, stomping, shouting or childish behavior. Just pointing out what's wrong and in very simple terms. I've lived here for more than 10 years and think I have a good grasp of the Thai culture but there are limits and sometimes they need to be spoken. Assimilating doesn't mean we have to leave our values,integrity, and common sense at the immigration counter when we enter the country. I believe we could add some value if we try in a constructive manner. Edited April 2, 2016 by sstuff3

[sappersrest]

20 K that is a lot of money , I pay 8500 , bins emptied twice a week, grass areas cut every fortnight ,trees trimed plus security and card entry system. plus street lighting There are 370 houses on our estate ,we have a well run committee.So it would seem u have a bit of a problem.

Edited April 2, 2016 by sappersrest

[surangw]

the way it works ( not just thailand) the boss gets the big bux, the flunkies get minimum pay and work accordingly

[sstuff3]

20 K that is a lot of money , I pay 8500 , bins emptied twice a week, grass areas cut every fortnight ,trees trimed plus security and card entry system. plus street lighting There are 370 houses on our estate ,we have a well run committee.So it would seem u have a bit of a problem.

In Bangkok? We also have nearly 370 houses, security-manned gate and patrols, street lighting etc but the trash is only collected once a week. This is a fairly new MooBaan, we were one of the first to buy and apparently the new buyers don't have to pay fees for the first 2 years. Maybe the fees will reduce after everyone starts paying.

[Happy Grumpy]

There was no yelling, screaming, stomping, shouting or childish behavior.

From your Western mindset, perhaps.... you realise that you're not in the West now, right?

You obviously have some issues about Thai culture that you'd be better of fixing within yourself, rather than educating the "stupid" Thais about how minor issues should be dealt with.

Best of luck.

[sstuff3]

There was no yelling, screaming, stomping, shouting or childish behavior.

From your Western mindset, perhaps.... you realise that you're not in the West now, right?

You obviously have some issues about Thai culture that you'd be better of fixing within yourself, rather than educating the "stupid" Thais about how minor issues should be dealt with.

Best of luck.

Again, you continue to misinterpret my writings. I've never said, or thought for that matter, that Thai people are stupid so please don't try to put those words on me. You obviously have issues with foreigners which you should either deal with or learn to suppress before someone takes that view of you.

BTW - paying someone 20,000 baht (or any amount for that matter) to do something they are not doing is not a "minor" issue in my opinion.

Edited April 2, 2016 by sstuff3

[AlexRich]

There was no yelling, screaming, stomping, shouting or childish behavior.

From your Western mindset, perhaps.... you realise that you're not in the West now, right?

You obviously have some issues about Thai culture that you'd be better of fixing within yourself, rather than educating the "stupid" Thais about how minor issues should be dealt with.

Best of luck.

Again, you continue to misinterpret my writings. I've never said, or thought for that matter, that Thai people are stupid so please don't try to put those words on me. You obviously have issues with foreigners which you should either deal with or learn to suppress before someone takes that view of you.

BTW - paying someone 20,000 baht (or any amount for that matter) to do something they are not doing is not a "minor" issue in my opinion.

I think your approach is correct. Polite but firm. I don't understand why some expats seem to think that, because they love Thailand, everything is acceptable? If a Thai family are paying 20,000 Baht for a service, but not receiving it, they just accept that as their lot? I'd be surprised if that were true. And if they don't, neither should you.

[Happy Grumpy]

There was no yelling, screaming, stomping, shouting or childish behavior.

From your Western mindset, perhaps.... you realise that you're not in the West now, right?

You obviously have some issues about Thai culture that you'd be better of fixing within yourself, rather than educating the "stupid" Thais about how minor issues should be dealt with.

Best of luck.

Again, you continue to misinterpret my writings. I've never said, or thought for that matter, that Thai people are stupid so please don't try to put those words on me. You obviously have issues with foreigners which you should either deal with or learn to suppress before someone takes that view of you.

BTW - paying someone 20,000 baht (or any amount for that matter) to do something they are not doing is not a "minor" issue in my opinion.

I think your approach is correct. Polite but firm. I don't understand why some expats seem to think that, because they love Thailand, everything is acceptable? If a Thai family are paying 20,000 Baht for a service, but not receiving it, they just accept that as their lot? I'd be surprised if that were true. And if they don't, neither should you.

Nope.

they deal with in a way that gets the work done, in the best way for them - ie, making everyone save face

Of course most big footed farang only know how to stomp in and make demands when the work they pay for hasn't been done, and the Thai way takes a level of insight and intelligence beyond most farang here.

Good luck teaching Thais how Thai matters should be dealt with.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Happy Grumpy

[sstuff3]

There was no yelling, screaming, stomping, shouting or childish behavior.

From your Western mindset, perhaps.... you realise that you're not in the West now, right?

You obviously have some issues about Thai culture that you'd be better of fixing within yourself, rather than educating the "stupid" Thais about how minor issues should be dealt with.

Best of luck.

Again, you continue to misinterpret my writings. I've never said, or thought for that matter, that Thai people are stupid so please don't try to put those words on me. You obviously have issues with foreigners which you should either deal with or learn to suppress before someone takes that view of you.

BTW - paying someone 20,000 baht (or any amount for that matter) to do something they are not doing is not a "minor" issue in my opinion.

I think your approach is correct. Polite but firm. I don't understand why some expats seem to think that, because they love Thailand, everything is acceptable? If a Thai family are paying 20,000 Baht for a service, but not receiving it, they just accept that as their lot? I'd be surprised if that were true. And if they don't, neither should you.

Nope.

they deal with in a way that gets the work done, in the best way for them - ie, making everyone save face

Of course most big footed farang only know how to stomp in and make demands when the work they pay for hasn't been done, and the Thai way takes a level of insight and intelligence beyond most farang here.

Good luck teaching Thais how Thai matters should be dealt with.

I believe 4 years of trying it the Thai way is more than enough to prove it wasn't working. At what point do you change tactics or do you suggest to keep your head buried in the sand acting like all is well and hope one day it will all be OK?

Taking money for services not rendered is not only wrong it is criminal, even in Thailand. Inaction is condoning this type of behavior and benefits no one.

You are suggesting that talking straightforward to a Thai person about a problem in a calm and polite manner causes them to lose face and will result in retribution? You have an amazing view on things and it doesn't match the views of my Thai friends and family. Thank God.

[AlexRich]

Nope.

they deal with in a way that gets the work done, in the best way for them - ie, making everyone save face

Of course most big footed farang only know how to stomp in and make demands when the work they pay for hasn't been done, and the Thai way takes a level of insight and intelligence beyond most farang here.

Good luck teaching Thais how Thai matters should be dealt with.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Insight and intelligence beyond most farang here" ... I take it that you've excluded yourself from that catch all? I've read your posts ... I guess your definition of insight and intelligence and mine are quite different. Another "more Thai than Thai know-all" ... the op neither 'stomped' nor 'made demands' ... if you have to put words into someone's mouth to make a point, it only serves to illustrate how weak your argument is.

[topt]

From your Western mindset, perhaps.... you realise that you're not in the West now, right?

You obviously have some issues about Thai culture that you'd be better of fixing within yourself, rather than educating the "stupid" Thais about how minor issues should be dealt with.

Best of luck.

Again, you continue to misinterpret my writings. I've never said, or thought for that matter, that Thai people are stupid so please don't try to put those words on me. You obviously have issues with foreigners which you should either deal with or learn to suppress before someone takes that view of you.

BTW - paying someone 20,000 baht (or any amount for that matter) to do something they are not doing is not a "minor" issue in my opinion.

I think your approach is correct. Polite but firm. I don't understand why some expats seem to think that, because they love Thailand, everything is acceptable? If a Thai family are paying 20,000 Baht for a service, but not receiving it, they just accept that as their lot? I'd be surprised if that were true. And if they don't, neither should you.

Nope.

they deal with in a way that gets the work done, in the best way for them - ie, making everyone save face

Of course most big footed farang only know how to stomp in and make demands when the work they pay for hasn't been done, and the Thai way takes a level of insight and intelligence beyond most farang here.

Good luck teaching Thais how Thai matters should be dealt with.

HG why is it only a Thai matter - or do you call it that because we are in Thailand even though it affects all the residents, Thai and foreigner.

Do you live in a Moobaan and pay fees? If yes then you may have a point. If no then IMHO in this matter you have absolutely no idea.

Have a look at some of the previous threads around paying fees and work being done in gated villages.

As to "arrogant" foreigners perhaps you should relook at what you have written....................

[Happy Grumpy]

There's none so blind, as those that will not see.

It's amusing to see the Farangs that refuse to accept a different way of getting things done in Asia.

A great way to deal with it was posted by my good self in post #11.

Let the Thais feel good, be humble, don't metion or even hint at anything that they are doing wrong, use your *ahem* 'intelligence' to get them to change the situation themselves, in a way that means they must change the way they work or be out of pocket. They'll change soon enough.

Never mind lads, stomp stomp, shout shout, the farang way, that's the way to get these uneduated, menial Thais to act for your benefit.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Happy Grumpy

[wump]

Lol some serious troll at work here.

Just go tell tell the manager to get the bloody grass cut when he's paying for it. Don't need to stomp or shout and all of your saving face nonsense.

"My grass hasn't been cut for the past year, can you please try to make sure it gets cut from now on?" "Sure mister, maybe there was some mistake". "Okay, thanks a lot, bye".

Who is losing face and where?!

[kannot]

There was no yelling, screaming, stomping, shouting or childish behavior.

From your Western mindset, perhaps.... you realise that you're not in the West now, right?

You obviously have some issues about Thai culture that you'd be better of fixing within yourself, rather than educating the "stupid" Thais about how minor issues should be dealt with.

Best of luck.

I guess the boat propellers of the greatest nation on Earth was lost on you in the flooding then

[kannot]

There's none so blind, as those that will not see.

It's amusing to see the Farangs that refuse to accept a different way of getting things done in Asia.

A great way to deal with it was posted by my good self in post #11.

Let the Thais feel good, be humble, don't metion or even hint at anything that they are doing wrong, use your *ahem* 'intelligence' to get them to change the situation themselves, in a way that means they must change the way they work or be out of pocket. They'll change soon enough.

Never mind lads, stomp stomp, shout shout, the farang way, that's the way to get these uneduated, menial Thais to act for your benefit.

get real , they are lazy shits creaming off any money they can in any way and dont give a <deleted> about anyone but themselves..................next youll be telling us to love the unmentionable

[JohnnyJazz]

We live in a similar place. Over the years we have developed good relation with the gardeners. When we want something done around our house we asked them directly and when the job is finished we gave them a 200 Bahts tip for their help.

We also maintain good relation with the guards at the entrance of the village.

Whenever we need something everybody is happy to help.

Now you need to ask yourself a question : what is the most important to you, to be right or to have good relation with your neighbours ?