Usufruct Registration in Chiang Mai

[LannaGuy]

to be safe you will need 3 things:

1. usufruct for life
2. Will if your wife or friend dies
3. undated PoA with signed ID

good luck, stay safe and make sure your names on the Chanot and you have those three

[HullyGully]

The POA has to be soley for the house, not a general POA

[LannaGuy]

The POA has to be soley for the house, not a general POA

no i have been through this and used one as my Thai friend went to America and I successfully sold house and land with her nowhere in sight. PoA signed and undated with nothing filled in unless you meant it must be filled in solely for the house? if so that is correct but I advise getting a blank one you fill in later.

[HullyGully]

Yes, solely for the house

[roath]

You should have the Usufruct for LIFE, not 30 years, I understand at the Land Office the details are entered onto the Chanote

If you an also include the right to transfer, which I think is called Superficies.

So you should have both

As I understand it, the Land Offices prefer to issue 30 year Usufructs to those with whom you do not have an intimate connection (i.e. not a partner/GF/wife). Whether there is any actual legal basis for this, I would suspect not, but that may have been the reasoning behind.

Also, people often either confuse or conflate the 30 year Lease terms with an Usufruct so that may be another reason for the discrepancy

Superficiaries is something different. I suspect that you are referring to the right to grant a Lease. A right of usufruct is invariably a personal right and cannot usually be transferred to a third party. Maybe Thai law permits this, but my understanding is not.

[roath]

Get a yellow book. It shows you are the owner of the house (not the land, which can only be held by a Thai or a Thai company).

Best guarantee you can have.since this is registered on the chanote itself.

You can do this yourself at the local Amphur office.

The yellow book does NOT show that you are the owner of the house. You need a registration at the Land Office for that. The Yellow Book is an administrative book issued by the Amphur not the Land Office and shows residency.

Your name will be registered on the Chanote as owner of the Usufruct (which gives a right of possession of land and property). If your name is not registered on the Chanote, then you do not have a legally enforceable Usufrct agreeement

[MadMac]

We did one in Hang Dong about 2 years ago, no problem at all.

You don't need any lawyer for this, they may only complicate things. The land office has standard forms for usufructs they know how to use and what to fill in. If you come with a difficult to understand lawyer construct full with "tricks" they could just refuse it and deny to enter this to not make a mistake. Not the first time this happens. Standard form, ususfruct for life and chanod entry are sufficient. Just make sure you do that before you get married, if not your wife can cancel the ususfruct one-sided if divorced. It however will survive her death, making it still usefull as some form of "accident insurance" if done after marriage. Nobody knows what comes...

The yellow housebook does not prove anything, it's just a (cheap) replacement for a residence certificate.

[LivinLOS]

My questions.

How solid and binding is a Usufruct property agreement in Thailand regarding Farlangs? Are they worth the paper they are printed on and if the crunch came to the crunch does the law recognize these agreements as legal and binding?

Has anyone ever put these agreements to the test when a Thai girlfriend or wife has decided is time for Mr Farlang and them to part company? Or the marriage/relationship has failed or Thai partner dies?

Usufructs, superficies and leasehold are all real rights, so strong under Thai law.

The exception being of course any agreement between a husband and wife can be nullified within 1 year of a divorce..

Of course theres the law, and theres the issues of trying to live on land or areas where an ex or ex's family live..

Me I have a usufruct.. But fact is I would be giving her the land anyway if we split.. Its more like double indemnity against death issues and retaining control in my hands. Call it leverage if you like but its just another card to play and only cost pennies. Reality is if leaving the wife, she deserves something, may as well be the immobile things as I wont be hanging about.

[LivinLOS]

Just make sure you do that before you get married, if not your wife can cancel the ususfruct one-sided if divorced

Can anyone state, with confidence, if this applies to premarital usufructs that then become a married partnership.

Or is it any agreement, rather than only ones made during marriage ??

I thought it was any, but have no case law or firm information to back that up.

[MadMac]

If done before marriage it becomes undisputable. Same is the case if there is any 3rd party involved like a child when done during marriage.

[Mark0]

K Sumalee handled ours.. Hang Dong..

Usual issues highlighted (wife holding the Usufruct) but I am not that bothered.. she can have it if it came to it..

Its often possible to split the property into land (with usufruct) and house owned.. Harder than with a self build but can be done.

How long ago was that ... recently ?

Just asking as I have heard it often depends on the district of the land office and maybe even the officer there in charge ... ?!

[Mark0]

There are many different land offices in Chiang Mai, some mentioned above. Better if the OP told which one he intended to use, the one that handles the area in which his intended purchase lies.

As mentioned earlier in my post, it's in a moo baan in Sansai district ...

[LannaGuy]

There are many different land offices in Chiang Mai, some mentioned above. Better if the OP told which one he intended to use, the one that handles the area in which his intended purchase lies.

As mentioned earlier in my post, it's in a moo baan in Sansai district ...

I'm in san sai and the office will ask you to do the transfer then come back in 2 weeks and do the Usufruct as technically it's illegal (for you to give the 'owner' the money to buy the house)

[Mark0]

We did one in Hang Dong about 2 years ago, no problem at all.

You don't need any lawyer for this, they may only complicate things. The land office has standard forms for usufructs they know how to use and what to fill in. If you come with a difficult to understand lawyer construct full with "tricks" they could just refuse it and deny to enter this to not make a mistake. Not the first time this happens. Standard form, ususfruct for life and chanod entry are sufficient. Just make sure you do that before you get married, if not your wife can cancel the ususfruct one-sided if divorced. It however will survive her death, making it still usefull as some form of "accident insurance" if done after marriage. Nobody knows what comes...

The yellow housebook does not prove anything, it's just a (cheap) replacement for a residence certificate.

Interesting approach, can believe it works as a "keep in simple" process ... ;-)

Are such standard forms publicly available at the land office to pick them up in advance and go through the document content (e.g. with some legal council) ?

[LivinLOS]

K Sumalee handled ours.. Hang Dong..

Usual issues highlighted (wife holding the Usufruct) but I am not that bothered.. she can have it if it came to it..

Its often possible to split the property into land (with usufruct) and house owned.. Harder than with a self build but can be done.

How long ago was that ... recently ?

Just asking as I have heard it often depends on the district of the land office and maybe even the officer there in charge ... ?!

hang dong and perhaps 3 years ago now.

[sappersrest]

There are many different land offices in Chiang Mai, some mentioned above. Better if the OP told which one he intended to use, the one that handles the area in which his intended purchase lies.

As mentioned earlier in my post, it's in a moo baan in Sansai district ...

I'm in san sai and the office will ask you to do the transfer then come back in 2 weeks and do the Usufruct as technically it's illegal (for you to give the 'owner' the money to buy the house)

Not totally correct my deal was done at the land office in Sansai Took less than one hour, and my name is on the Chanote as lease holder .Took away the original chanote all dully completed and a registered lease away with me. very simple with the help of a good lawyer . I am not married to a Thai.

[Konini]

May I ask a question that is somewhat related, but not very? You clever chappies on here may know a thing or two about it anyway. We live at Rimping Condo, lovely, no sun, far too big for us but we love it. It's perfect for us. I've been thinking longer term though - we have rental properties in England and apartments in a rapidly gentrifying part of almost central Melbourne and will never buy again. We have no children to inherit and our aim is to die penniless with only the pensions we get from the government. Renting is the only way to go for us financially. I'm something of an expert in taxation law and trust me, we will never buy again.

This morning I had a stroll up to Tesco Lotus and walked back through Kamteing market. It was very, very calming. Must have been all that greenery and silence, I'm not a tree-hugging greenie hippie type, but it really was nice an peaceful. Anyway, as I meandered, I saw one or two houses, nearby, not many, not fancy, just in a very peaceful place. This got me thinking to a finding something like this and nailing a 30 year or a Usufruct lease on an old semi derelict house for next to nothing and making it the perfect place to spend t the next 30 years. I'm quite handy with DIY stuff, Mr K is a toolmaker by trade, a qualified welder and a partially qualified electrician. He's also a hydraulics and pneumatics expert but I doubt that will come in handy unless we want the kind of Jacuzzi he set up in the workshop for the night shift. Or the lasers Ronnie fixed on the workshop door that triggered the turning off the power and the hydraulic (or pneumatic, I don't really understand it) lowering of the TV and closing of the cabinet doors so that by the time anyone got to them they were just sitting down having their break.. Seriously, their talents were wasted; the talents of afternoon and night shirt workers are wasted everywhere in the world. We have good fiends who come out to visit us, all of them the same as us, working class tradesmen. We could offer free flights and accommodation in return for a couple of days helping us out - Ronnie is the best sparkie I know, Tim is a plumber, Peter is a tiler, Leon is a carpenter/joiner. I could find some Burmese labourers along the road to Tesco Locus every morning or put a couple of bottles of good quality bourbon or voddy on the table for some of our friends here and rope in a couple of them to be labourers for a couple of days, back home style laborers rather than local style. It would give them something to do and not be a burden or a chore every time someone comes out to visit. It really is doable.

I could take a wreck and given enough time and about a million baht turn it into the best place anyone would ever want to live in. We already have a lot of stuff, furniture, electronics, aesthetics, so I think a million baht a a few slabs of beer or bottles of bourbon would do it. A small second bedroom for the occasional guest to stay in, the rest nice ad open plan and just the way I want it and secured on a legally enforceable, minimum 30 year lease with rental increases set in stone to the end of the lease, negotiated hard and fully legal and legit I even know someone may be willing to take the long term investment in buying a place for sale.

My question would be - and we still have a couple of years left on our lease here so if we decide to go down this route we have plenty of time to look around and get the boys over for a free holiday - how much is the return expected here? I know what the average rental return to purchase price is in Melbourne, I know what the average rental return to purchase price is in the north of England and I know what the average rental return to purchase price is in London, I have an idea of the average rental return on condo's here, totally ridiculous in my opinion, but what about those neglected houses down quiet little sois, walking distance to the night market or Warrarot or Chiang Mai Gate or Chiang Puak gate? If I could get an idea of the expected return on a rental, I can start to to do the sums to figure out if it would be worth looking further into it. As previous, I may even know a Thai who would go for this kind of long term investment; as I said, we have no family inheritance to worry aout but most people and especially Asians do. I know we would probably be looking at spending around a million to get it up to my standards and that's at mates rates with us doing most of the work, and that obviously would be money lost in the fiscal sense, but quality of life and (hopefully) low rent because we'd be basically leasing a largish shack with a garden that I could make look nice.may make it worth while. All I need is an empty space and I can do it.

(I know about the neighbours who could open a fish head soup shop or cock fighter training place next door, I'm not that green and would choose wisely, just need to know what the average Thai would expect in a rental return on a 30 or more year lease for the in relation to the value of the property)

Any opinions would be appreciated

:

EDIT: For my terrible grammar.

[LivinLOS]

There are many different land offices in Chiang Mai, some mentioned above. Better if the OP told which one he intended to use, the one that handles the area in which his intended purchase lies.

As mentioned earlier in my post, it's in a moo baan in Sansai district ...

I'm in san sai and the office will ask you to do the transfer then come back in 2 weeks and do the Usufruct as technically it's illegal (for you to give the 'owner' the money to buy the house)

Not totally correct my deal was done at the land office in Sansai Took less than one hour, and my name is on the Chanote as lease holder .Took away the original chanote all dully completed and a registered lease away with me. very simple with the help of a good lawyer . I am not married to a Thai.

Usufruct or leasehold ??

[LivinLOS]

WOW long post for a small Q.

Rental returns here are awful. The rest is so variable its impossible to answer..

[LannaGuy]

There are many different land offices in Chiang Mai, some mentioned above. Better if the OP told which one he intended to use, the one that handles the area in which his intended purchase lies.

As mentioned earlier in my post, it's in a moo baan in Sansai district ...

I'm in san sai and the office will ask you to do the transfer then come back in 2 weeks and do the Usufruct as technically it's illegal (for you to give the 'owner' the money to buy the house)

Not totally correct my deal was done at the land office in Sansai Took less than one hour, and my name is on the Chanote as lease holder .Took away the original chanote all dully completed and a registered lease away with me. very simple with the help of a good lawyer . I am not married to a Thai.

why you mention 'LEASE'? did I say lease??? no... I did not... as a lease is a completely different thing than an Usufruct so good luck with your 'registered lease' which they may 'register' the same day i do not know but San Sai do NOT allow Usufructs on the same day as, they say, it's too "obvious"

[LannaGuy]

WOW long post for a small Q.

Rental returns here are awful. The rest is so variable its impossible to answer..

yup my 8 to 9% NET returns over the last 8 years are AWFUL

[sappersrest]

to be safe you will need 3 things:

1. usufruct for life
2. Will if your wife or friend dies
3. undated PoA with signed ID

good luck, stay safe and make sure your names on the Chanot and you have those three

Have all there and usufruct was registered same day at Sansai office. I know I was there .

Edited April 6, 2016 by sappersrest

[Konini]

OK, apologies for the long rambling post. The shadow had passed the sundial, so to speak.

So, the sober potted version, if a house valued at say 2 million were on the market and an investor were to buy knowing that he could get a usufruct year lease, paid annually in advance, with massive improvements to the property value at the end of that lease, what return in very general terms would he be looking at on his 2 million?

I realise that I kind of hijacked a topic and may need to start another thread more for investors.

[LivinLOS]

WOW long post for a small Q.

Rental returns here are awful. The rest is so variable its impossible to answer..

yup my 8 to 9% NET returns over the last 8 years are AWFUL

In 15 years in rental homes I have paid 2 - 4 % of the property value in annual rents.

Then the homes needed maintaining.. 2 of those 7 or so properties cost more in maintenance than my rent gave them. One of those properties, a miulti million dollar clifftop villa, the retaining wall gave way and the villa ended up a total loss, half of it at the bottom of the 25 cliff.. Millions of usd flushed.. The Thai insurance refused to pay the farang.

I just moved last month, into a lovely budget home with pool, large garden, etc where rent is less than I have had electric bills.

Edited April 7, 2016 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

OK, apologies for the long rambling post. The shadow had passed the sundial, so to speak.

So, the sober potted version, if a house valued at say 2 million were on the market and an investor were to buy knowing that he could get a usufruct year lease, paid annually in advance, with massive improvements to the property value at the end of that lease, what return in very general terms would he be looking at on his 2 million?

I realise that I kind of hijacked a topic and may need to start another thread more for investors.

Incredibly random..

But a 2 mil house, without it being modernized and western furnished.. Guessing 5 - 8k a month rent. Based on the values I see around.

But there really is no way to answer that.. Also not that many well located downtown 2 mil houses which are desirable IMO.

[anto]

WOW long post for a small Q.

Rental returns here are awful. The rest is so variable its impossible to answer..

yup my 8 to 9% NET returns over the last 8 years are AWFUL

In 15 years in rental homes I have paid 2 - 4 % of the property value in annual rents.

Then the homes needed maintaining.. 2 of those 7 or so properties cost more in maintenance than my rent gave them. One of those properties, a miulti million dollar clifftop villa, the retaining wall gave way and the villa ended up a total loss, half of it at the bottom of the 25 cliff.. Millions of usd flushed.. The Thai insurance refused to pay the farang.

I just moved last month, into a lovely budget home with pool, large garden, etc where rent is less than I have had electric bills.

Rental can make seance in Thailand .In the British Isles people are always encouraged to buy if possible .In Continental Europe renting is more common .Because of my upbringing i have always lived in a Condo i owned or house i half owned in Thailand .It has worked out for me over time .i.e,i owned a Condo in Jomtien/Pattaya for 7 years ,and my current house in C.M for 6 years . No big repairs needed other than the initial upgrading of the house after i bought it .House has gone up in value by a conservative 50% .

Edited April 7, 2016 by anto

[MadMac]

We did one in Hang Dong about 2 years ago, no problem at all.

You don't need any lawyer for this, they may only complicate things. The land office has standard forms for usufructs they know how to use and what to fill in. If you come with a difficult to understand lawyer construct full with "tricks" they could just refuse it and deny to enter this to not make a mistake. Not the first time this happens. Standard form, ususfruct for life and chanod entry are sufficient. Just make sure you do that before you get married, if not your wife can cancel the ususfruct one-sided if divorced. It however will survive her death, making it still usefull as some form of "accident insurance" if done after marriage. Nobody knows what comes...

The yellow housebook does not prove anything, it's just a (cheap) replacement for a residence certificate.

Interesting approach, can believe it works as a "keep in simple" process ... ;-)

Are such standard forms publicly available at the land office to pick them up in advance and go through the document content (e.g. with some legal council) ?

That's a one page standard form they fill in their computer/database and keep it. You get entered into the Chanod as usufructus of the desired length, mostly 30 years or life long. There are no additional strings attached, just that. The signed ususfruct itself remains with the land office, no need to find a secure location for it. As simple as it can get.

[LannaGuy]

to be safe you will need 3 things:

1. usufruct for life
2. Will if your wife or friend dies
3. undated PoA with signed ID

good luck, stay safe and make sure your names on the Chanot and you have those three

Have all there and usufruct was registered same day at Sansai office. I know I was there .

Lucky - most offices do do it same time but San Sai is very nervous about it (I know I was there a few weeks ago registering my Usufruct)

[LannaGuy]

WOW long post for a small Q.

Rental returns here are awful. The rest is so variable its impossible to answer..

yup my 8 to 9% NET returns over the last 8 years are AWFUL

In 15 years in rental homes I have paid 2 - 4 % of the property value in annual rents.

Then the homes needed maintaining.. 2 of those 7 or so properties cost more in maintenance than my rent gave them. One of those properties, a miulti million dollar clifftop villa, the retaining wall gave way and the villa ended up a total loss, half of it at the bottom of the 25 cliff.. Millions of usd flushed.. The Thai insurance refused to pay the farang.

I just moved last month, into a lovely budget home with pool, large garden, etc where rent is less than I have had electric bills.

well I own several condos in Chiang Mai - renovated them - I get 8% minimum RoI for most of the last decade and they have nearly paid for themselves

[Konini]

OK, apologies for the long rambling post. The shadow had passed the sundial, so to speak.

So, the sober potted version, if a house valued at say 2 million were on the market and an investor were to buy knowing that he could get a usufruct year lease, paid annually in advance, with massive improvements to the property value at the end of that lease, what return in very general terms would he be looking at on his 2 million?

I realise that I kind of hijacked a topic and may need to start another thread more for investors.

Incredibly random..

But a 2 mil house, without it being modernized and western furnished.. Guessing 5 - 8k a month rent. Based on the values I see around.

But there really is no way to answer that.. Also not that many well located downtown 2 mil houses which are desirable IMO.

Thank you for the answer, it was a wild shot but you have kind of answered my question so I have a very basic figure to work on. I'll do the modernising and we already have the furniture. I just wanted a rough roundabout and I'm figureing on a million to renovate - I can do a lot myself, pretty handy with a router and fancy bits for it. It's possible that over the next couple of years I'll see something for rent when I'm on my rambles, I've walked from Rimping Condo to Makro on Hang Dong road several times, so I do wander a lot down quiet back streets and sois. I need to learn to read Thai so that when I see those signs, I'll know what they mean. Any old shack with a nice garden will do, maybe a Thai owner would jump at the chance of a 30 year lease, it would be a good deal for both of us and he'd get a very nicely renovated place when we leave or die - it would have to be tied up very tightly so we had guaranteed rent increase limits and he would have claim to our estate should we die before it's all up.

As I said, it's just an idea. If I find something somewhere quiet and peaceful, great. If I don't we'll stay here.

One last question - you may know the answer, you many not. A Thai owner, probably no previous contact with a farang; in your opinion would they think a 30 year lease locked in legally would be like all their Christmases have come at once or don't they go for that kind of thing here?