Thaksin warns on democracy, economy in New Year message

[2fishin2]

LOL.

Thaksin lecturing on democracy is like Pol Pot lecturing on human rights.

Thanks for that thigh slapper.

Better than the Junta, that's for sure.

[rubl]

Nice challenge, my dear heybruce. The usual confirmation you provoke on purpose as well, but that's obvious when you write "you hate, you lied".

Back to Thaksin who is also good at nonsense and non-denials. A man good at public relations, Amply Rich enough to buy political parties, hypocrite enough to talk about democracy.

Is this what you mean by "twisting and turning"--writing a reply that says nothing?

You are vaguely specific when you post "hypocrite enough to talk about democracy." What is hypocritical about a man who consistently wins elections talking about democracy?

You mean Thaksin is in good company? Berlusconi, the NK chap, the gentleman in Zimbabwe? The parties in Eastern Europe who 'won' decisively after WWII with the 'real' democrats accepting 'the will of the people' ?

The 2001 election Thaksin won square and fair by buying it. A business success. A small investment in political parties brought under the umbrella of his 'Thai Rak Thaksin' company and the old guard delivered. A bit of hammering on 'money for all' after the austerity policy of the previous government (trying to save the nation from the 1997 disaster).

2005 a real win. Money floating around, everybody had a bit and the right people a lot. No one in sight to even look like making up the bill. But Thaksin got greedy and maybe he also saw the business problems ahead. The sale of his Amply Rich offshore company (Bahamas or Bermuda, not Panama) after his cabinet proposed a law and his parliament accepted it made it possible, taxfree as well, was the culmination of business greed by a PM working for himself.

The 2006 election a clear example of "we'll fool them again" thinking.

For Thaksin democracy means business opportunities and if that means even the people have to be given crumbs, bread and games, so be it. Public Relations he used to limit what needs to be actually given.

[Siripon]

LOL.

Thaksin lecturing on democracy is like Pol Pot lecturing on human rights.

Thanks for that thigh slapper.

Better than the Junta, that's for sure.

No he's far worse than the junta because Thaksin pretends his party is democratic when everyone knows it's nothing of the sort..

[2fishin2]

LOL.

Thaksin lecturing on democracy is like Pol Pot lecturing on human rights.

Thanks for that thigh slapper.

Better than the Junta, that's for sure.

No he's far worse than the junta because Thaksin pretends his party is democratic when everyone knows it's nothing of the sort..

He was elected in by the people where the Junta stole the country. Please tell me how democratic the stolen country is? <deleted> are you trolling for anyways? Get a life.

[ianf]

A hypocrite if their ever was one.

Yes a hypocrite, a liar, a serial human rights abuser, some would say a murderer given the extra-judicial killings under his watch. I think overall, a madman or perhaps just a sociopath. If you read his speeches, they are not the speeches of a person with a fine sense of, shall we say, balance?

[Siripon]

LOL.

Thaksin lecturing on democracy is like Pol Pot lecturing on human rights.

Thanks for that thigh slapper.

Better than the Junta, that's for sure.

No he's far worse than the junta because Thaksin pretends his party is democratic when everyone knows it's nothing of the sort..

He was elected in by the people where the Junta stole the country. Please tell me how democratic the stolen country is? <deleted> are you trolling for anyways? Get a life.

He bought up parties, especially the NAP, just under 80 MPs and then rolled out populist policies sure to win votes with the rural majority. There was /is no democracy with Thaksin, remember 'Thaksin thinks (orders), Pheua Thai does', their party slogan.Nobody else counts in his party because they don't have his money to buy and keep the MPs happy.

[MZurf]

A hypocrite if their ever was one.

Yes a hypocrite, a liar, a serial human rights abuser, some would say a murderer given the extra-judicial killings under his watch. I think overall, a madman or perhaps just a sociopath. If you read his speeches, they are not the speeches of a person with a fine sense of, shall we say, balance?

Are you talking about Thaksin, the current "PM" or his best friend Suthep?

[Siripon]

A hypocrite if their ever was one.

Yes a hypocrite, a liar, a serial human rights abuser, some would say a murderer given the extra-judicial killings under his watch. I think overall, a madman or perhaps just a sociopath. If you read his speeches, they are not the speeches of a person with a fine sense of, shall we say, balance?

Are you talking about Thaksin, the current "PM" or his best friend Suthep?

2500 extra judicial killings under his watch- that can only mean Thaksin.

[2fishin2]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

Edited April 16, 2016 by 2fishin2

[Siripon]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

' fishin, this is Thailand, there were no check and balances under Thaksin,it was a police state, now it's an army state same same but different. This is Thailand not Kansas, don't try to compare Thailand with the West, though perhaps you could compare Thaksin to Donald Trump,self made men with egos out of control.

[2fishin2]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

' fishin, this is Thailand, there were no check and balances under Thaksin,it was a police state, now it's an army state same same but different. This is Thailand not Kansas, don't try to compare Thailand with the West, though perhaps you could compare Thaksin to Donald Trump,self made men with egos out of control.

HAHA and next thing you are going to say is that there are checks and balances with the Junta? Give us all a break man! Have you ever heard of the Pmans Article 44 where he has done whatever he has wanted for months now with NO checks and balances under a junta rule where they answer to no one.

Dude you are seriously spouting this crap? Your opinions are so farrrrrrrrrr from the truth they arent even on the same planet.

[heybruce]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

' fishin, this is Thailand, there were no check and balances under Thaksin,it was a police state, now it's an army state same same but different. This is Thailand not Kansas, don't try to compare Thailand with the West, though perhaps you could compare Thaksin to Donald Trump,self made men with egos out of control.

I don't recall it being a police state under Thaksin, certainly not compared to now. He was good at circumventing checks and balances, though obviously not nearly as good as a military government that gives itself unchecked power under Article 44.

Thaksin's real power came by shifting some government investment from Bangkok, which had been receiving 90% of government spending, to the grossly under-served areas in the north and northeast where the majority of the population lives. Roads, clinics and schools were built, remote villagers could get their children to clinics for vaccinations, more children graduated high school and went to university or technical schools, etc.

For all his many faults, Thaksin showed the voters that democracy can produce a government that serves all of Thailand, not just Bangkok. This gave the neglected majority hope for a better future. Of course he also showed the traditional power-brokers in Bangkok that their hold on power wasn't guaranteed, which is the real reason for the last two coups.

Even if the Shinawatra's are completely elimintated from Thai politics, if democracy returns to Thailand future elections will be won by politicians who promise to serve all of Thailand, not just Bangkok. That's why the junta is in no hurry to bring about real democracy, it takes power from the minority in Bangkok and gives it to the majority. That is contrary to the elites sense of "Thainess".

[Siripon]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

' fishin, this is Thailand, there were no check and balances under Thaksin,it was a police state, now it's an army state same same but different. This is Thailand not Kansas, don't try to compare Thailand with the West, though perhaps you could compare Thaksin to Donald Trump,self made men with egos out of control.

HAHA and next thing you are going to say is that there are checks and balances with the Junta? Give us all a break man! Have you ever heard of the Pmans Article 44 where he has done whatever he has wanted for months now with NO checks and balances under a junta rule where they answer to no one.

Dude you are seriously spouting this crap? Your opinions are so farrrrrrrrrr from the truth they arent even on the same planet.

Of course I'm not going to say there are checks and balances under the junta, they're a junta for god's sake. But if you think Thaksin allowed any real checks and balances you are seriously mistaken,Censorship of the media, no state advertisements for any media that criticized him, judges given lunch boxes with 2 million baht in them, believe me there's a list a mile long of abuses of freedom under Thaksin.,

[Siripon]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

' fishin, this is Thailand, there were no check and balances under Thaksin,it was a police state, now it's an army state same same but different. This is Thailand not Kansas, don't try to compare Thailand with the West, though perhaps you could compare Thaksin to Donald Trump,self made men with egos out of control.

I don't recall it being a police state under Thaksin, certainly not compared to now. He was good at circumventing checks and balances, though obviously not nearly as good as a military government that gives itself unchecked power under Article 44.

Thaksin's real power came by shifting some government investment from Bangkok, which had been receiving 90% of government spending, to the grossly under-served areas in the north and northeast where the majority of the population lives. Roads, clinics and schools were built, remote villagers could get their children to clinics for vaccinations, more children graduated high school and went to university or technical schools, etc.

For all his many faults, Thaksin showed the voters that democracy can produce a government that serves all of Thailand, not just Bangkok. This gave the neglected majority hope for a better future. Of course he also showed the traditional power-brokers in Bangkok that their hold on power wasn't guaranteed, which is the real reason for the last two coups.

Even if the Shinawatra's are completely elimintated from Thai politics, if democracy returns to Thailand future elections will be won by politicians who promise to serve all of Thailand, not just Bangkok. That's why the junta is in no hurry to bring about real democracy, it takes power from the minority in Bangkok and gives it to the majority. That is contrary to the elites sense of "Thainess".

There would have been no coup since 2002 if Thaksin hadn't misused power for personal gain.He worked out back in the 1990s that if he won Issan and parts of the north he would have enough seats to permanently stay in power. So being the good salesman he was he did a survey about what people wanted and he answered their wishes- health care,village fund, etc.For education he did nothing useful, one scholarship one district didn't help many students and his Education Minister Dr Kasem, a highly respected figure, resigned after a few months due to gross interference in his job.Thaksin then promised Issan farmers they would get rich by planting rubber trees with help from his rich buddies in CP. What a disaster that has been.

And of course he famously said if you don't vote for me then you have to wait to get any budget, his usual divisive nonsense.

His legacy is he was the first politician to offer national policies to the electorate but his personal greed and egoism made him the hated figure he is today among a considerable part of the population.

I hope with you there will be politicians who promise to serve all of Thailand, not just the Shinawats as all of Pheua Thai MPs did.

[Ace of Pop]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

just shows how thick the majority are if that's the case

[rubl]

A hypocrite if their ever was one.

Yes a hypocrite, a liar, a serial human rights abuser, some would say a murderer given the extra-judicial killings under his watch. I think overall, a madman or perhaps just a sociopath. If you read his speeches, they are not the speeches of a person with a fine sense of, shall we say, balance?

Are you talking about Thaksin, the current "PM" or his best friend Suthep?

You, like others may have missed it, but the topic here is Thaksin and remains Thaksin whatever diversion you try.

[rubl]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

The majority? Probably the 'vocal' majority paid by Thaksin ?

BTW you demean yourself by thinking you need to start with "you junta boys", IMHO

Edited April 17, 2016 by rubl

[MZurf]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

The majority? Probably the 'vocal' majority paid by Thaksin ?

BTW you demean yourself by thinking you need to start with "you junta boys", IMHO

"The majority? Probably the 'vocal' majority paid by Thaksin ?"

Yes of course, the old "won several elections by paying" argument. The junta supporters always counters with this because they don't have any real defence for a junta grabbing power from an elected government.

Obviously the fact that the international community and election observers disagree doesn't matter - they know best!

Sad, really.

[MZurf]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

' fishin, this is Thailand, there were no check and balances under Thaksin,it was a police state, now it's an army state same same but different. This is Thailand not Kansas, don't try to compare Thailand with the West, though perhaps you could compare Thaksin to Donald Trump,self made men with egos out of control.

I don't recall it being a police state under Thaksin, certainly not compared to now. He was good at circumventing checks and balances, though obviously not nearly as good as a military government that gives itself unchecked power under Article 44.

Thaksin's real power came by shifting some government investment from Bangkok, which had been receiving 90% of government spending, to the grossly under-served areas in the north and northeast where the majority of the population lives. Roads, clinics and schools were built, remote villagers could get their children to clinics for vaccinations, more children graduated high school and went to university or technical schools, etc.

For all his many faults, Thaksin showed the voters that democracy can produce a government that serves all of Thailand, not just Bangkok. This gave the neglected majority hope for a better future. Of course he also showed the traditional power-brokers in Bangkok that their hold on power wasn't guaranteed, which is the real reason for the last two coups.

Even if the Shinawatra's are completely elimintated from Thai politics, if democracy returns to Thailand future elections will be won by politicians who promise to serve all of Thailand, not just Bangkok. That's why the junta is in no hurry to bring about real democracy, it takes power from the minority in Bangkok and gives it to the majority. That is contrary to the elites sense of "Thainess".

There would have been no coup since 2002 if Thaksin hadn't misused power for personal gain.He worked out back in the 1990s that if he won Issan and parts of the north he would have enough seats to permanently stay in power. So being the good salesman he was he did a survey about what people wanted and he answered their wishes- health care,village fund, etc.For education he did nothing useful, one scholarship one district didn't help many students and his Education Minister Dr Kasem, a highly respected figure, resigned after a few months due to gross interference in his job.Thaksin then promised Issan farmers they would get rich by planting rubber trees with help from his rich buddies in CP. What a disaster that has been.

And of course he famously said if you don't vote for me then you have to wait to get any budget, his usual divisive nonsense.

His legacy is he was the first politician to offer national policies to the electorate but his personal greed and egoism made him the hated figure he is today among a considerable part of the population.

I hope with you there will be politicians who promise to serve all of Thailand, not just the Shinawats as all of Pheua Thai MPs did.

"There would have been no coup since 2002 if Thaksin hadn't misused power for personal gain."

Yes there would. This is all about access to the trough and the old elite would never have allowed Thaksin to monopolize this.

"And of course he famously said if you don't vote for me then you have to wait to get any budget, his usual divisive nonsense."

Well, I guess it's better not to have a vote then, right?

"His legacy is he was the first politician to offer national policies to the electorate but his personal greed and egoism made him the hated figure he is today among a considerable part of the population."

If he is as hated as you say then why doesn't the junta hold elections to legitimize their rule? I mean, according to government polls Uncle Too's approval rating is through the roof. Strange, huh?

[heybruce]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

' fishin, this is Thailand, there were no check and balances under Thaksin,it was a police state, now it's an army state same same but different. This is Thailand not Kansas, don't try to compare Thailand with the West, though perhaps you could compare Thaksin to Donald Trump,self made men with egos out of control.

I don't recall it being a police state under Thaksin, certainly not compared to now. He was good at circumventing checks and balances, though obviously not nearly as good as a military government that gives itself unchecked power under Article 44.

Thaksin's real power came by shifting some government investment from Bangkok, which had been receiving 90% of government spending, to the grossly under-served areas in the north and northeast where the majority of the population lives. Roads, clinics and schools were built, remote villagers could get their children to clinics for vaccinations, more children graduated high school and went to university or technical schools, etc.

For all his many faults, Thaksin showed the voters that democracy can produce a government that serves all of Thailand, not just Bangkok. This gave the neglected majority hope for a better future. Of course he also showed the traditional power-brokers in Bangkok that their hold on power wasn't guaranteed, which is the real reason for the last two coups.

Even if the Shinawatra's are completely elimintated from Thai politics, if democracy returns to Thailand future elections will be won by politicians who promise to serve all of Thailand, not just Bangkok. That's why the junta is in no hurry to bring about real democracy, it takes power from the minority in Bangkok and gives it to the majority. That is contrary to the elites sense of "Thainess".

There would have been no coup since 2002 if Thaksin hadn't misused power for personal gain.He worked out back in the 1990s that if he won Issan and parts of the north he would have enough seats to permanently stay in power. So being the good salesman he was he did a survey about what people wanted and he answered their wishes- health care,village fund, etc.For education he did nothing useful, one scholarship one district didn't help many students and his Education Minister Dr Kasem, a highly respected figure, resigned after a few months due to gross interference in his job.Thaksin then promised Issan farmers they would get rich by planting rubber trees with help from his rich buddies in CP. What a disaster that has been.

And of course he famously said if you don't vote for me then you have to wait to get any budget, his usual divisive nonsense.

His legacy is he was the first politician to offer national policies to the electorate but his personal greed and egoism made him the hated figure he is today among a considerable part of the population.

I hope with you there will be politicians who promise to serve all of Thailand, not just the Shinawats as all of Pheua Thai MPs did.

I don't deny that he abused power, but that was the pretext for the coups, not the reason. If he had been honest another pretext would have been found or invented.

As I posted earlier, Thaksin had many faults, which would have eventually caught up with him. With democracy there is no way to "permanently stay in power". Voters go into every election with a "what have you done for me lately" attitude. Had there been elections in July 2014 the PTP would have been seriously weakened.

However when the military government finally allows elections people will go into the elections with the intent to send an "up yours" message to the military. Every coup against a Shinawatra backed government increases the Shinawatra's appeal in the next election.

To state the obvious, you can't fix democracy with military coups. Well, it's obvious to most people.

[Siripon]

With democracy there is no way to "permanently stay in power".- I think Hunsen might disagree with you there, and of course the rulers of Singapore. The point is with the entrenched patronage system in Thailand there is no real democracy, only the MPs for the Democrat party have any independence, the other party MPS are simply minions to be disposed of by the party owners when they feel displeased

Why don't the red shirts set up their own democratic party comprised of grassroots activists and civil reformers?

[jayboy]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

' fishin, this is Thailand, there were no check and balances under Thaksin,it was a police state, now it's an army state same same but different. This is Thailand not Kansas, don't try to compare Thailand with the West, though perhaps you could compare Thaksin to Donald Trump,self made men with egos out of control.

I don't recall it being a police state under Thaksin, certainly not compared to now. He was good at circumventing checks and balances, though obviously not nearly as good as a military government that gives itself unchecked power under Article 44.

Thaksin's real power came by shifting some government investment from Bangkok, which had been receiving 90% of government spending, to the grossly under-served areas in the north and northeast where the majority of the population lives. Roads, clinics and schools were built, remote villagers could get their children to clinics for vaccinations, more children graduated high school and went to university or technical schools, etc.

For all his many faults, Thaksin showed the voters that democracy can produce a government that serves all of Thailand, not just Bangkok. This gave the neglected majority hope for a better future. Of course he also showed the traditional power-brokers in Bangkok that their hold on power wasn't guaranteed, which is the real reason for the last two coups.

Even if the Shinawatra's are completely elimintated from Thai politics, if democracy returns to Thailand future elections will be won by politicians who promise to serve all of Thailand, not just Bangkok. That's why the junta is in no hurry to bring about real democracy, it takes power from the minority in Bangkok and gives it to the majority. That is contrary to the elites sense of "Thainess".

There would have been no coup since 2002 if Thaksin hadn't misused power for personal gain.He worked out back in the 1990s that if he won Issan and parts of the north he would have enough seats to permanently stay in power. So being the good salesman he was he did a survey about what people wanted and he answered their wishes- health care,village fund, etc.For education he did nothing useful, one scholarship one district didn't help many students and his Education Minister Dr Kasem, a highly respected figure, resigned after a few months due to gross interference in his job.Thaksin then promised Issan farmers they would get rich by planting rubber trees with help from his rich buddies in CP. What a disaster that has been.

And of course he famously said if you don't vote for me then you have to wait to get any budget, his usual divisive nonsense.

His legacy is he was the first politician to offer national policies to the electorate but his personal greed and egoism made him the hated figure he is today among a considerable part of the population.

I hope with you there will be politicians who promise to serve all of Thailand, not just the Shinawats as all of Pheua Thai MPs did.

It's difficult to make backward predictions but even without Thaksin's excesses it's hard to see that the Thai establishment and the compliant/ myopic Sino Thai middle class would have tolerated a shift of power and influence away from the old order.Thus even a clean successful populist politician would have been at risk from a coup

In many countries there is from time to time a natural majority for one party or the other.Clever politicians work within this framework and often beat the odds.There was no serious attempt by the Democrats to do this in Thailand.

Your summary of Thaksin's campaign strategy is puzzling.I agree with most of it but isn't this what able politicians do in every country? I don't disagree with your comments on his excesses.I find your posts a little frustrating because you so clearly understand most of the factors at work but somehow just don't get that Thailand's current dreadful problems are about other things as well.It's really just not all about the wickedness of one man.

[jayboy]

LOL.

Thaksin lecturing on democracy is like Pol Pot lecturing on human rights.

Thanks for that thigh slapper.

Better than the Junta, that's for sure.

No he's far worse than the junta because Thaksin pretends his party is democratic when everyone knows it's nothing of the sort..

Surprisingly for someone who is normally relatively cogent your logic is astray here.To suggest the PTP is "worse" than Junta because the former's founder makes unconvincing democratic claims just doesn't make any sense.

If an axe murderer openly admits he is a psychopath it doesn't make him "better" than a petty criminal who is ambivalent about his thievery.

[heybruce]

With democracy there is no way to "permanently stay in power".- I think Hunsen might disagree with you there, and of course the rulers of Singapore. The point is with the entrenched patronage system in Thailand there is no real democracy, only the MPs for the Democrat party have any independence, the other party MPS are simply minions to be disposed of by the party owners when they feel displeased

Why don't the red shirts set up their own democratic party comprised of grassroots activists and civil reformers?

Ok, I didn't bog my post down with qualifiers, such as "democracy in large, diverse nations with fair, internationally monitored elections". Hun Sen, prime minister of Cambodia, stays in power through abuse of power and election fraud. Singapore is a small, well-run city-state, and the leadership knows that it's hold on power depends on continuing to competently manage the city-state.

The 2011 election that put the PTP in power was internationally monitored and deemed legitimate. The international community has not deemed the coup legitimate. It will be interesting to see if the junta will allow the referendum on the constitution and the election that will (hopefully) follow be internationally monitored.

The entrenched patronage system in Thailand (Suthep was a player and beneficiary of this, I don't think removing it was one of the reforms he had in mind) is part of the corruption that can only be eliminated with greater transparency in government and a truly free press. The junta is definitely not a fan of either.

"Why don't the red shirts set up their own democratic party comprised of grassroots activists and civil reformers?"

There was movement in this area before the coup: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/720424-fed-up-with-pheu-thai-activists-form-alternative-party/?hl=%2Bchiang+%2Bmai+%2Bparty

Of course now the junta won't allow such a thing.

[Siripon]

Good old jayboy, some things never change, still the same old patronizing tone.

There is absolutely no grounds to say there would have been a coup even without Thaksin. From 1991 to 2006 there were none and there were some rather poor governments, Banharn and Chavalit come to mind,The fact is he was/is an egomaniac who can never have enough money or power,Luckily he's getting old in the desert, soon he will be 70, does the desert air keep one looking young?

Comparing the junta to an axeman is rather rich jayboy as Thaksin has far more blood on his hands.

[MZurf]

Good old jayboy, some things never change, still the same old patronizing tone.

There is absolutely no grounds to say there would have been a coup even without Thaksin. From 1991 to 2006 there were none and there were some rather poor governments, Banharn and Chavalit come to mind,"The fact is he was/is an egomaniac who can never have enough money or power,Luckily he's getting old in the desert, soon he will be 70, does the desert air keep one looking young?

Comparing the junta to an axeman is rather rich jayboy as Thaksin has far more blood on his hands.

" From 1991 to 2006 there were none and there were some rather poor governments, Banharn and Chavalit come to mind,..."

And they did in no way threaten the old elite as Thaksin did. They were in fact very much a part of it so your argument doesn't hold water.

[jayboy]

Good old jayboy, some things never change, still the same old patronizing tone.

There is absolutely no grounds to say there would have been a coup even without Thaksin. From 1991 to 2006 there were none and there were some rather poor governments, Banharn and Chavalit come to mind,The fact is he was/is an egomaniac who can never have enough money or power,Luckily he's getting old in the desert, soon he will be 70, does the desert air keep one looking young?

Comparing the junta to an axeman is rather rich jayboy as Thaksin has far more blood on his hands.

I'm sorry if you feel pointing out flawed logic is patronising.

You provided a value judgement on the coup aspect which is noted.In my earlier post I provided a different view backed up with reasons.But who knows? It's rather pointless arguing about an event which never happened.

In any case neither Banharn nor Chavalit were challengers to the old order.Actually though Thaksin was a more wily customer than the aforementioned he could have been managed much more effectively.One of the lessons emerging from the Thai political crisis is the almost impenetrable stupidity of those non elected power factions who learn nothing and forget nothing.

Yes Thaksin's time is finite and before long he will be gone.And in the minds of some no doubt all Thailand's problems will disappear.Dispassionately of course a bright ten year old could see this is nonsense.

Ah yes Thaksin the mass murderer.What would we do without the drugs war?

[heybruce]

Good old jayboy, some things never change, still the same old patronizing tone.

There is absolutely no grounds to say there would have been a coup even without Thaksin. From 1991 to 2006 there were none and there were some rather poor governments, Banharn and Chavalit come to mind,The fact is he was/is an egomaniac who can never have enough money or power,Luckily he's getting old in the desert, soon he will be 70, does the desert air keep one looking young?

Comparing the junta to an axeman is rather rich jayboy as Thaksin has far more blood on his hands.

I'm sorry if you feel pointing out flawed logic is patronising.

You provided a value judgement on the coup aspect which is noted.In my earlier post I provided a different view backed up with reasons.But who knows? It's rather pointless arguing about an event which never happened.

In any case neither Banharn nor Chavalit were challengers to the old order.Actually though Thaksin was a more wily customer than the aforementioned he could have been managed much more effectively.One of the lessons emerging from the Thai political crisis is the almost impenetrable stupidity of those non elected power factions who learn nothing and forget nothing.

Yes Thaksin's time is finite and before long he will be gone.And in the minds of some no doubt all Thailand's problems will disappear.Dispassionately of course a bright ten year old could see this is nonsense.

Ah yes Thaksin the mass murderer.What would we do without the drugs war?

"the almost impenetrable stupidity of those non elected power factions who learn nothing and forget nothing."

I think arrogance, an impenetrable wall of sycophants who insulate the "quality people" from the real world, and an entrenched system that values connections and bribes over competence has something to do with it.

[ballpoint]

Good old jayboy, some things never change, still the same old patronizing tone.

There is absolutely no grounds to say there would have been a coup even without Thaksin. From 1991 to 2006 there were none and there were some rather poor governments, Banharn and Chavalit come to mind,"The fact is he was/is an egomaniac who can never have enough money or power,Luckily he's getting old in the desert, soon he will be 70, does the desert air keep one looking young?

Comparing the junta to an axeman is rather rich jayboy as Thaksin has far more blood on his hands.

" From 1991 to 2006 there were none and there were some rather poor governments, Banharn and Chavalit come to mind,..."

And they did in no way threaten the old elite as Thaksin did. They were in fact very much a part of it so your argument doesn't hold water

"They were in fact very much a part of it"... Now, hold that thought. Two of the biggest names on the wrong side of a number of anti-democratic events over the years, including May 1992, and very much part of the old order, who controlled large factions of the TRT, and continue to do so with the PTP. Now, what's wrong with this picture? In your words, they were part of the old elite who felt threatened by Thaksin, yet they held a major part of his supporting base, and continue to do so. Had they have had any concern at all about the way Thaksin was taking the country then surely they could have withdrawn their support for the TRT, rather than engineer a coup against him? And why continue to support the PTP? The argument put forth by his supporters that Thaksin posed a threat to the "old elite" and was removed for it is rather simplistic. There are a number of factions holding various cards in the game, all fighting to be the dealer when the next round begins. Trying to argue that one side is better for the people than another is a ridiculous position to be taking, as is the one that, if you speak out against Thaksin then you must be pro junta. You might as well argue that if you are against a wolf eating your sheep then you must be for a mountain lion doing so. No side wants the people to take control. They will bitterly fight between themselves for power, but will unite and attempt to crush any serious grass roots movement for true democracy.

[2fishin2]

You junta boys have no common sense. If in your home country the military over through your government, you would be protesting on the street. But here you say no problem. You guys are the true meaning of hypocrites. In a democracy when people dont like a political figure, they elect him out of office. In Thailand the military overthrows governments because they dont have the knowledge and education to do what is right. Kindergarden kids thats what the government is here. You dont like what Thaksin has to say? Dont listen. Whether you like it or not, the majority people of Thailand want him back. The rich and influential don't but, the country as a whole does.

The majority? Probably the 'vocal' majority paid by Thaksin ?

BTW you demean yourself by thinking you need to start with "you junta boys", IMHO

What should I call the people who support the military junta?