US military units to stay for South China Sea patrols

[AYJAYDEE]

So far CCP moving onto the Scarborough Shoal inside the Phillipines' EEZ is the dog that has not barked. Likewise for CCP Dictators in Beijing establishing an Air Defense Identification Zone over any of the islands it has occupied or constructed, or over the entire SCS. All's quiet on both fronts, at least for the moment.

Scarborough Shoal is included in the US-Philippines Mutual Defense Treaty, whereas the Paracels Islands off Vietnam have nothing to do with the United States. This may well be a factor as CCP occupation of Scarborough would put their offensive missiles in an easy range of both Manila and US forces in bases there.

Scarborough is 120 miles off the Phils which places it within the Phils EEZ of 200 miles (370 km).

South China Morning Post in Hong Kong reported last week a PLA source said they are ready to move onto the Shoal. The spokesperson of the Foreign Ministry said however, “As for whether China will conduct new activities of reclamation, I just said I haven’t heard of the news." This shows the tension occurring in Beijing between the CCP hawks versus the doves, much the same as in Washington where DepState and DepDefense are on opposite sides of the Potomac, literally and metaphorically.

It is possible Washington and Beijing have been working backchannels, given the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague is within weeks of issuing its ruling and that it is widely expected to hammer the CCP Boyz in Beijing.

It is also possible CCP got a significant pound of flesh when it denied the aircraft carrier John C. Stennis and the four ships of its strike force (plus an attack sub) their scheduled visit in Hong Kong. The denial was selective however, as the US 7th Fleet Command Ship the cruiser Blue Ridge had already docked at HKG no problem. CCP is still stinging over 1996 when President Clinton sent two carrier strike groups to the Taiwan Strait after CCP in the weeks ahead of Taiwan's first democratic election of their president and parliament had begun launching missiles into the Strait 24/7. CCP had to quit and withdraw when the two carrier strike forces arrived at either end of the Strait (but did not enter it). Every CCP fenqing still rails on about it.

The issue of Scarborough Shoal, a possible ADIZ, further FONOPs remain open yet unsettled. Which seems better at the moment than the CCP moving in on yet another atoll and one which the US recognises as a part of Phillipine sovereignty, not CCP sovereignty. This one is pretty clear cut. Perhaps even in Beijing too.

Same was true in respect of the Senkaku Islands in the East Sea which CCP covets but are owned by Japan. US included the Senkaku island chain in Japanese sovereignty after WW II and also included the Senkaku as a part of the Japan-US Mutual Defense Treaty. CCP after two years kicking around in and over the East Sea, to include each side making targeting radar locks on ships and planes, has since left it quiet.

The SCS Code of Conduct signed in 2002 between Asean and CCP but ignored by CCP since 2012 calls for mutual negotiation and mutual agreement, which CCP has ignored. Asean has most recently called on all SCS countries to freeze in place.

I love how you always manage to get the word communist or dictator in there! lol

I love how I get misrepresented around these parts by people who have a false construct of me in their own mind.

I do not for instance use the word communist. All we need to know is that these CCP Dictators in Beijing are dictators. If I'm going to apply any ideology to them, the terminology would be 21st century fascists.

Live and learn beyond the glib world of cliches to all of youse guyz over there who also do not understand US liberals and US foreign policy. Sen Henry Jackson would be a good starting point but that would require a knowledge of things geostrategic as well as in geo-economics, not to mention history (recent history besides).

Silly boyz.

Donald Trump

why do we need to be reminded they are dictators so often? do think we'd forget? no, you do it as slur. and while we are discussing what each other knows, I know all about scoop and you will forgive me if I'm not impressed by a dinosaur proponent of the nonsensical domino theory! If that is the example that you approve of to describe american foreign policy then no, we have a very accurate construct of your thinking!

[keemapoot]

Seems like every day we're seeing headlines of more circling of the wagons, or I guess in this case "circling of the canoes" by affected parties forming partnerships in the SCS and now Indian Ocean. Japan now becoming bff with the Philippines, after India's announcement of its partnership with the US in the Indian Ocean.

Japan announced today they will be leasing military aircraft to the Philippines 'in another sign of deepening security ties between the two former foes to counter Beijing’s increasing regional influence.'

Under the accord, Tokyo will lease up to five TC-90 training airplanes and help Manila train pilots and aircraft mechanics, the ministry said. The planes can be used as surveillance aircraft, according to local media.

It will be Japan’s first lease of its Self-Defence Forces’ aircraft to another country after it recently lifted a self-imposed ban on weapons exports.

“We agreed that it is important for all the countries in the region to strengthen cooperation in order to maintain peace and stability of the South China Sea,” Nakatani told reporters.

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/139190/japan-agrees-to-lease-military-aircraft-to-philippines

Lots of frenemies are now holding hands on this one.

[boomerangutang]

Google Maps keeps traditional name; 'Scarborough Shoal' for the shoal, instead of the recently submitted Chinese name.

10 month old article with photos/maps in UK's Telegraph.Google

China is really going down an ugly path. It's going full tilt to rile its sheeple up into thinking those Philippine territories are China's.

If it were just moving toward a military confrontation (which the US would win in 2 days), then that would be bad enough, .....but China's politburo wants to get its billion+ citizens involved, as added leverage for everyone else to step aside. With mass sheeple involvement, cyber war would be inevitable and Americans in China would be in danger. It's an ugly way to play, but it proves the saying, "all's fair in love and war."

Would Americans harm Chinese tourists in the US? Of course not.

[tonbridgebrit]

Seems like every day we're seeing headlines of more circling of the wagons, or I guess in this case "circling of the canoes" by affected parties forming partnerships in the SCS and now Indian Ocean. Japan now becoming bff with the Philippines, after India's announcement of its partnership with the US in the Indian Ocean.

Japan announced today they will be leasing military aircraft to the Philippines 'in another sign of deepening security ties between the two former foes to counter Beijing’s increasing regional influence.'

Under the accord, Tokyo will lease up to five TC-90 training airplanes and help Manila train pilots and aircraft mechanics, the ministry said. The planes can be used as surveillance aircraft, according to local media.

It will be Japan’s first lease of its Self-Defence Forces’ aircraft to another country after it recently lifted a self-imposed ban on weapons exports.

“We agreed that it is important for all the countries in the region to strengthen cooperation in order to maintain peace and stability of the South China Sea,” Nakatani told reporters.

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/139190/japan-agrees-to-lease-military-aircraft-to-philippines

Lots of frenemies are now holding hands on this one.

Well, yes, I think we should accept that Japan sending five training airplanes to the Philippines is something that is mainly symbolic. It will have almost zero impact on the situation in the Far East, it's America's firepower that matters, others joining in with America are giving a mainly symbolic and political gesture.

Can I have a little smirk at the Philippines ? The American military bases in the Philippines, they was closed down back in the early 1990s I think. Was it the Americans who wanted to get out ? Or was it the Philippines who wanted them out ? Did the Philippines feel that the blatant presence of the American soldiers symbolised that the Philippines was an American colony/satellite state ?

Actually, can I have a smirk at Japan ?

They lost World War Two, and basically, they've been forced to be a pacifist nation since then. Anything Japan does in a military or near-military way is looked at deeply by everybody. Even sending five training airplanes, it raises eyebrows, the media has to mention how the self-imposed ban on weapons exports was lifted.

In reality, Japan would love to have it's "full military independence back again". Japan still has a giant trade surplus and lots of government money. They'd love to build up their own fully independent army, airforce and navy. Countries like Iran are hampered in their efforts at developing a nuke, that's because other countries threaten sanctions if Iran does it. Japan, well, they've got enough money to stick two fingers up at sanctions, the world needs Japan's capital more than Japan needs the rest of the world.

Hence, Japan is not really involved in any military disputes. Washington calls the shots on Japan's military as far as Tokyo is concerned. Yes, it's a good thing. Makes the situation less complicated. Makes the Pacific and the Far East less complicated.

[tonbridgebrit]

So let's not focus on posters.

This would be the case whether the poster is one's self or he might be another poster.

The thread is the topic and the topic is the thread.

It's pretty much a rule around here y'know.

The more a poster focuses on another poster, the more obvious it is the poster is losing the argument...if the poster in the wrong does in fact have an argument. The more posters who focus in this way, the larger the surrender party becomes, or is.

Publicus, you're practically the only person who has turned up here to try and create the image that Vietnam's military is linked with America, and that Vietnam will fight alongside America, AGAINST China. And you're the only person who has tried to mention how America might become Vietnam's biggest trading partner.

Now, whether it's you or anybody else who wants to put up posts that are about the imaginary and non-existent military links between Vietnam and the USA, well, I'm here to put up my posts. My posts will be to show how ridiculous the idea of the imaginary and non-existent military links are.

[boomerangutang]

maps are interesting. . . . . .

[tonbridgebrit]

Boomer, you're making me giggle with that Youtube video !!

Does this mean, if anybody produces a map that is a bit old, oh, they can claim whatever territory ?


Yeah, the USA's attitude towards China. See, the USA recognised and supported Chang Kai Shek and the Koumingtang guys before Mao and the Communists took over. If Chang Kai Shek had of won the civil war in China, then maybe, Washington would still be 'friends' with China.

Maybe America wouldn't bother about some tiny dots in the middle of the sea had Mao NOT won China's civil war back then !

[Publicus]

So far CCP moving onto the Scarborough Shoal inside the Phillipines' EEZ is the dog that has not barked. Likewise for CCP Dictators in Beijing establishing an Air Defense Identification Zone over any of the islands it has occupied or constructed, or over the entire SCS. All's quiet on both fronts, at least for the moment.

Scarborough Shoal is included in the US-Philippines Mutual Defense Treaty, whereas the Paracels Islands off Vietnam have nothing to do with the United States. This may well be a factor as CCP occupation of Scarborough would put their offensive missiles in an easy range of both Manila and US forces in bases there.

Scarborough is 120 miles off the Phils which places it within the Phils EEZ of 200 miles (370 km).

South China Morning Post in Hong Kong reported last week a PLA source said they are ready to move onto the Shoal. The spokesperson of the Foreign Ministry said however, “As for whether China will conduct new activities of reclamation, I just said I haven’t heard of the news." This shows the tension occurring in Beijing between the CCP hawks versus the doves, much the same as in Washington where DepState and DepDefense are on opposite sides of the Potomac, literally and metaphorically.

It is possible Washington and Beijing have been working backchannels, given the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague is within weeks of issuing its ruling and that it is widely expected to hammer the CCP Boyz in Beijing.

It is also possible CCP got a significant pound of flesh when it denied the aircraft carrier John C. Stennis and the four ships of its strike force (plus an attack sub) their scheduled visit in Hong Kong. The denial was selective however, as the US 7th Fleet Command Ship the cruiser Blue Ridge had already docked at HKG no problem. CCP is still stinging over 1996 when President Clinton sent two carrier strike groups to the Taiwan Strait after CCP in the weeks ahead of Taiwan's first democratic election of their president and parliament had begun launching missiles into the Strait 24/7. CCP had to quit and withdraw when the two carrier strike forces arrived at either end of the Strait (but did not enter it). Every CCP fenqing still rails on about it.

The issue of Scarborough Shoal, a possible ADIZ, further FONOPs remain open yet unsettled. Which seems better at the moment than the CCP moving in on yet another atoll and one which the US recognises as a part of Phillipine sovereignty, not CCP sovereignty. This one is pretty clear cut. Perhaps even in Beijing too.

Same was true in respect of the Senkaku Islands in the East Sea which CCP covets but are owned by Japan. US included the Senkaku island chain in Japanese sovereignty after WW II and also included the Senkaku as a part of the Japan-US Mutual Defense Treaty. CCP after two years kicking around in and over the East Sea, to include each side making targeting radar locks on ships and planes, has since left it quiet.

The SCS Code of Conduct signed in 2002 between Asean and CCP but ignored by CCP since 2012 calls for mutual negotiation and mutual agreement, which CCP has ignored. Asean has most recently called on all SCS countries to freeze in place.

I love how you always manage to get the word communist or dictator in there! lol

I love how I get misrepresented around these parts by people who have a false construct of me in their own mind.

I do not for instance use the word communist. All we need to know is that these CCP Dictators in Beijing are dictators. If I'm going to apply any ideology to them, the terminology would be 21st century fascists.

Live and learn beyond the glib world of cliches to all of youse guyz over there who also do not understand US liberals and US foreign policy. Sen Henry Jackson would be a good starting point but that would require a knowledge of things geostrategic as well as in geo-economics, not to mention history (recent history besides).

Silly boyz.

Donald Trump

why do we need to be reminded they are dictators so often? do think we'd forget? no, you do it as slur. and while we are discussing what each other knows, I know all about scoop and you will forgive me if I'm not impressed by a dinosaur proponent of the nonsensical domino theory! If that is the example that you approve of to describe american foreign policy then no, we have a very accurate construct of your thinking!

why do we need to be reminded they are dictators so often? do think we'd forget? no, you do it as slur

Slur, moi?!?

It is not a slur nor is it intended to be. It is an arrow to the heart of a 5000 year old racist Middle Kingdom dictatorship that openly detests parliamentary democracy and that means to end it. They have believers and supporters who are also open about it. They oppose use of the word 'dictator' because they support it...and them. Others object on the basis of their being a dilettante engaged in polemics and one-upmanship.

you will forgive me if I'm not impressed by a dinosaur proponent of the nonsensical domino theory!

You'd have to take your pleading to someone who subscribes to the "domino theory" and who believes in it; and, to someone who might sadly be trying to apply it to the SCS, to include to US-CCP relations. People who have a familiar experience with the theory can note getting their heads bashed by the pigs police in anti-Vietnam war demonstrations over several years. This poster is not a soclalist, not a CCP, not a rightist; nor is this poster a money grubber given the inherently flawed CCP corrupt economy and its fundamentally wrongheaded paradigm, means, purposes, global goals.

A word offered to the wise would be that people who create and project their own realties on others need to become even more wise by learning who others are and what others are in fact about. This requires going beyond stereotypes, to include things glib and cliched; and of going beyond trite thinking and recitations. Not to mention the need that they revisit their lecturing and scolding manner.

How the Next US President Should Handle the South China Sea

China will surely test the mettle of the next U.S. administration in the South China Sea. How to respond?

China uses propaganda to burnish this apparent duality. Despite the fact that the United States repeatedly stresses that it is a permanent Pacific power (indeed, the U.S. territory of Guam plants to hold a referendum on statehood this November), Beijing spins a narrative casting the United States as an irrelevant outside power. The Chinese narrative quickly loses potency when China makes excessive claims, such as its still ambiguous right to the area within a nine-dash line covering the vast majority of the South China Sea, partly on on the flimsy basis of historical rights.

As long as American interests are in some doubt, China can be expected to test the will of the United States. Thus it must remain clear that U.S. interests are inextricably intertwined with the advancement, development, and prosperity of the Asia-Pacific region.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/05/how-the-next-us-president-should-handle-the-south-china-sea/

Recall the CCP Dictators' Three Warfares of the 21st century: psychological, media/PR, 'lawfare' or inventing new and unprecedented CCP law. CCP is losing on all three fronts. It's their own domino theory. Or to mix the metaphors, their silly salami slicing...of which the world is also well aware.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Publicus

[boomerangutang]

Boomer, you're making me giggle with that Youtube video !!

Does this mean, if anybody produces a map that is a bit old, oh, they can claim whatever territory ?

Yeah, the USA's attitude towards China. See, the USA recognised and supported Chang Kai Shek and the Koumingtang guys before Mao and the Communists took over. If Chang Kai Shek had of won the civil war in China, then maybe, Washington would still be 'friends' with China.

Maybe America wouldn't bother about some tiny dots in the middle of the sea had Mao NOT won China's civil war back then !

There are several maps shown. They are Chinese maps made by Chinese mapmakers to depict China's territory. The maps are old and unaltered. None of the maps show any Chinese territory south of Hainan island - not even a mention.

The US has reasonably friendly relations with China, but has a special friendship with Philippines. Any country, no matter how big, which lays claim to Phil' territory, is a concern for Americans. It doesn't have anything to do with who won China's civil war in the 1940's. Granted, things might be different if the other side won, but the same could be said of a lot of conflicts: the overthrow of the Russian Czar, US allowing the Japanese Emperor to keep his throne, US allowing the Russkies to get to Berlin before Uncle Sam, and so on.

[AYJAYDEE]

As long as American interests are in some doubt, China can be expected to test the will of the United States. Thus it must remain clear that U.S. interests are inextricably intertwined with the advancement, development, and prosperity of the Asia-Pacific region.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/05/how-the-next-us-president-should-handle-the-south-china-sea/

Recall the CCP Dictators' Three Warfares of the 21st century: psychological, media/PR, 'lawfare' or inventing new and unprecedented CCP law. CCP is losing on all three fronts. It's their own domino theory. Or to mix the metaphors, their silly salami slicing...of which the world is also well aware.

as they are not reading this, I think your arrow would be better shot somewhere else. Its a slur. and no one accused you of subscribing to any theory but suggesting that a man like Jackson is a place for others to get the feel for american foreign policy is an indication of your leanings. Jackson was a man that helped lead america down a garden path that is still causing her great problems. His thinking represented everything that was wrong with american foreign policy in asia. And a country that also makes excessive claims to their rights in the traditional territories of others will never gain much sympathy from the rest of the world when it complains about china's aggressive actions.

[Publicus]

As long as American interests are in some doubt, China can be expected to test the will of the United States. Thus it must remain clear that U.S. interests are inextricably intertwined with the advancement, development, and prosperity of the Asia-Pacific region.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/05/how-the-next-us-president-should-handle-the-south-china-sea/

Recall the CCP Dictators' Three Warfares of the 21st century: psychological, media/PR, 'lawfare' or inventing new and unprecedented CCP law. CCP is losing on all three fronts. It's their own domino theory. Or to mix the metaphors, their silly salami slicing...of which the world is also well aware.

as they are not reading this, I think your arrow would be better shot somewhere else. Its a slur. and no one accused you of subscribing to any theory but suggesting that a man like Jackson is a place for others to get the feel for american foreign policy is an indication of your leanings. Jackson was a man that helped lead america down a garden path that is still causing her great problems. His thinking represented everything that was wrong with american foreign policy in asia. And a country that also makes excessive claims to their rights in the traditional territories of others will never gain much sympathy from the rest of the world when it complains about china's aggressive actions.

as they are not reading this, I think your arrow would be better shot somewhere else. Its a slur

Don't be so sure about who reads this and who does not.

It is ridiculous to call it a slur. Unless perhaps one is somehow exceptionally offended.

CCP Dictators in Beijing are the CCP Dictators in Beijing because they are the CCP Dictators in Bejing. It's a pretty direct reference and a cut and dry fact. Regret to see you're missing some elemental stuff here. Accordingly, you or anyone else are thus invited to provide evidence or proof to the contrary.

Regardless, given that you're going to persist in your demands, kindly be advised to place your presumptuous suggestions in my TVF inbox..appropriately by color. (I'd suggest blue but it's really up to you.)

I reference the late Sen. Henry Jackson (D-WA) as an American liberal during his time. I'd already posted, more than once, I and tens of thousands of other Americans spent several years in the streets of several cities across America getting our heads cracked by the pigs police due to our opposition to the war in Vietnam. Sen. Jackson was a hard man against the Russian former Soviet Union, so kindly try to think along those line, i.e., the last and final empire of history.

To think one is a clone of Sen Jackson or anyone else is a deficit of the person making the projection which is moreover an impulsive and imprudent one.

Frankly this poster has better things to do here than to correct other posters never mind to do it repeatedly.

Keep the line moving plse thx.

[AYJAYDEE]

As long as American interests are in some doubt, China can be expected to test the will of the United States. Thus it must remain clear that U.S. interests are inextricably intertwined with the advancement, development, and prosperity of the Asia-Pacific region.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/05/how-the-next-us-president-should-handle-the-south-china-sea/

Recall the CCP Dictators' Three Warfares of the 21st century: psychological, media/PR, 'lawfare' or inventing new and unprecedented CCP law. CCP is losing on all three fronts. It's their own domino theory. Or to mix the metaphors, their silly salami slicing...of which the world is also well aware.

as they are not reading this, I think your arrow would be better shot somewhere else. Its a slur. and no one accused you of subscribing to any theory but suggesting that a man like Jackson is a place for others to get the feel for american foreign policy is an indication of your leanings. Jackson was a man that helped lead america down a garden path that is still causing her great problems. His thinking represented everything that was wrong with american foreign policy in asia. And a country that also makes excessive claims to their rights in the traditional territories of others will never gain much sympathy from the rest of the world when it complains about china's aggressive actions.

as they are not reading this, I think your arrow would be better shot somewhere else. Its a slur

Don't be so sure about who reads this and who does not.

It is ridiculous to call it a slur. Unless perhaps one is somehow exceptionally offended.

CCP Dictators in Beijing are the CCP Dictators in Beijing because they are the CCP Dictators in Bejing. It's a pretty direct reference and a cut and dry fact. Regret to see you're missing some elemental stuff here. Accordingly, you or anyone else are thus invited to provide evidence or proof to the contrary.

Regardless, given that you're going to persist in your demands, kindly be advised to place your presumptuous suggestions in my TVF inbox..appropriately by color. (I'd suggest blue but it's really up to you.)

I reference the late Sen. Henry Jackson (D-WA) as an American liberal during his time. I'd already posted, more than once, I and tens of thousands of other Americans spent several years in the streets of several cities across America getting our heads cracked by the pigs police due to our opposition to the war in Vietnam. Sen. Jackson was a hard man against the Russian former Soviet Union, so kindly try to think along those line, i.e., the last and final empire of history.

To think one is a clone of Sen Jackson or anyone else is a deficit of the person making the projection which is moreover an impulsive and imprudent one.

Frankly this poster has better things to do here than to correct other posters never mind to do it repeatedly.

Keep the line moving plse thx.

its a slur because you continuously refer to it even though everyone knows the fact that tey are dictators. and jackson was a strong supporter of lbj's vietnam policies so spare me your anecdotes about your poor head. If its true, you can thank mr jackson. and america is as much an empire as the soviet union so forget that "last" nonsense.

btw, your poorly disguised personal attacks fool no one and indicate the lack of substance to your points.

[Publicus]

Seems like every day we're seeing headlines of more circling of the wagons, or I guess in this case "circling of the canoes" by affected parties forming partnerships in the SCS and now Indian Ocean. Japan now becoming bff with the Philippines, after India's announcement of its partnership with the US in the Indian Ocean.

Japan announced today they will be leasing military aircraft to the Philippines 'in another sign of deepening security ties between the two former foes to counter Beijing’s increasing regional influence.'

Under the accord, Tokyo will lease up to five TC-90 training airplanes and help Manila train pilots and aircraft mechanics, the ministry said. The planes can be used as surveillance aircraft, according to local media.

It will be Japan’s first lease of its Self-Defence Forces’ aircraft to another country after it recently lifted a self-imposed ban on weapons exports.

“We agreed that it is important for all the countries in the region to strengthen cooperation in order to maintain peace and stability of the South China Sea,” Nakatani told reporters.

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/139190/japan-agrees-to-lease-military-aircraft-to-philippines

Lots of frenemies are now holding hands on this one.

Indeed.

PM Narenda Modi has openly welcomed new US-India ties and he's entered into a strategic partnership with Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia. India has recently completed a large naval and also air base in the Anadman Islands at the north end of the Strait of Malacca. It is a part of India's new "Move East" policy which had previously been its "Look East" policy.

US, India discussing ways to curb Chinese submarines

As part of their new naval cooperation against Chinese subs, America and India are flying the new version of the US P-8 spy aircraft, which is the Pentagon's most effective submarine hunting weapon.

The P-8 or Poseidon is capable of using torpedoes, depth charges, SLAM-ER missiles, Harpoon anti-ship missiles and other weapons.

"These types of basic engagements will be the building blocks for an enduring Navy-to-Navy relationship that we hope will grow over time into a shared ASW* capability," an unnamed US official familiar with India-US military cooperation was quoted as saying by Reuters on Monday

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2016/05/mil-160502-presstv03.htm?_m=3n%2e002a%2e1707%2etq0ao005re%2e1kig

India has two aircraft carriers and is itself constructing a third one. The Indians last year successfully test fired a missile that can reach Beijing. PM Modi has made the major move of shifting some army forces from the Pakistan border to the north border where CCP has several PLA divisions on the other side in Tibet. India has created two new mountain infantry divisions on the border with the CCP.

Last year Xi Jinping told PM Modi in Beijing that the "Indian Ocean is not Indian." Modi said China needs to "reconsider" its policies in the region.

*Anti-Submarine Warfare.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Publicus

[tonbridgebrit]

Okay, okay, confrontation in the Far East and confrontation in the Pacific. What is the latest nonsense being trotted out by Washington and it's cheerleaders ??


Okay, it's this. We've already had the imaginary and non-existent link between Vietnam and Washington between brought out, brought out to combat China. The latest nonsense is to bring out the non-existent and imaginary link between Washington and INDIA !!!

Now, this IS laughable, bearing in mind that linking Washington with Vietnam is NOT funny. But is linking Washington with India funny ? Maybe it's not. Okay, Washington is desperate to create a club or group of nations who are going to be on Washington's side in this "confrontation' over small dots in the Pacific.


What's actually happening ?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-07-02/india-demands-u-s-explanation-after-report-modi-party-spied-on


Above is a link from Bloomberg. Bloomberg cannot be regarded as some small website that is anti-Washington, surely not ?

Basically, the report is to do with Edward Snowden (remember him ? ) making revelations that the NSA (that's America's National Security Agency) went and spied on India's leader, Narendra Modi. Yes, America spied on Mr Modi !!

Okay, here is a quote from the Bloomberg article [india called for the U.S. to stop any spying activities as it sought an explanation for a media report that the National Security Agency conducted surveillance on Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ruling party.

U.S. diplomats yesterday told Indian officials that they’d investigate claims Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party was among six political groups around the globe that President Barack Obama’s administration spied on, according to Syed Akbaruddin, a spokesman for India’s Ministry of External Affairs. The issue arose from a report by the Washington Post that cited documents from former NSA contractor Edward Snowden.]

[tonbridgebrit]

(the above is a photo of Narendra Modi, India's prime minister. Proper respect for this man. Yes India, you are a great nation.)

Mr Modi. Sir, when Washington talks to you, please be careful about what Washington is saying. Washington is carrying out a policy of "divide and rule". Washington wants to turn you against China, Washington is using you to fight against China. But, off-course, you already know that.

Yes, Washington has spent decades supporting PAKISTAN. Pakistan and India are rivals, and WASHINGTON has exploited this for decades.


Mr Modi, Sir, you look a bit angry. Well, yes, IF I was spied on by the NSA, I'd be angry as well.

(and please note, Mr Modi, Washington's cheerleaders mock the BRICS nations, them cheerleaders are a bunch of two-faced ____, but you already knew that).

[55Jay]

This is about China and what China did.

N. Korea's antics in the 2000's not notwithstanding, America's present role is reactionary, and now supportive to what appears to be a growing coalition and consensus by neighboring/regional nations against China because of what China did.

The posts favoring China or, at best, a desire to see America "butt out", avoids taking responsibility for what has happened, and why. I'm sure China would prefer not having this American interference, which tends to draw instant and prolonged media attention and annoying analysis. Big Brother is watching and, ironically, it seems to wrankle the noses of the Chinese when the shoe's on the other foot?

Edited May 4, 2016 by 55Jay

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[tonbridgebrit]

This is about China and what China did.

N. Korea's antics in the 2000's not notwithstanding, America's present role is reactionary, and now supportive to what appears to be a growing coalition and consensus by neighboring/regional nations against China because of what China did.

The posts favoring China or, at best, a desire to see America "butt out", avoids taking responsibility for what has happened, and why. I'm sure China would prefer not having this American interference, which tends to draw instant and prolonged media attention and annoying analysis. Big Brother is watching and, ironically, it seems to wrankle the noses of the Chinese when the shoe's on the other foot?

Hello 55Jay.

Everybody knows that Beijing does actually spy on it's own people. The stuff from Edward Snowden tells us that basically, people in America (and indeed, people in Britain as well) might also be spied on by the government ?

Anyway, can you imagine being Mr Modi, India's leader ? Washington is trying to be your friend, and oh, Washington is actually spying on you ?

Sir, I'm not against the people of America. I do actually have loads of American friends, and yes, some of them vote Republican. I'm only trying to point out that Washington (America's government) does actually do all kinds of naughty things.

[55Jay]

Okay, okay, confrontation in the Far East and confrontation in the Pacific. What is the latest nonsense being trotted out by Washington and it's cheerleaders ??

Okay, it's this. We've already had the imaginary and non-existent link between Vietnam and Washington between brought out, brought out to combat China. The latest nonsense is to bring out the non-existent and imaginary link between Washington and INDIA !!!

Now, this IS laughable, bearing in mind that linking Washington with Vietnam is NOT funny. But is linking Washington with India funny ? Maybe it's not. Okay, Washington is desperate to create a club or group of nations who are going to be on Washington's side in this "confrontation' over small dots in the Pacific.

What's actually happening ?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-07-02/india-demands-u-s-explanation-after-report-modi-party-spied-on

Above is a link from Bloomberg. Bloomberg cannot be regarded as some small website that is anti-Washington, surely not ?

Basically, the report is to do with Edward Snowden (remember him ? ) making revelations that the NSA (that's America's National Security Agency) went and spied on India's leader, Narendra Modi. Yes, America spied on Mr Modi !!

Okay, here is a quote from the Bloomberg article [india called for the U.S. to stop any spying activities as it sought an explanation for a media report that the National Security Agency conducted surveillance on Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ruling party.

U.S. diplomats yesterday told Indian officials that they’d investigate claims Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party was among six political groups around the globe that President Barack Obama’s administration spied on, according to Syed Akbaruddin, a spokesman for India’s Ministry of External Affairs. The issue arose from a report by the Washington Post that cited documents from former NSA contractor Edward Snowden.]

He's not angry. That's his best faux outrage look because he knows his government does the same thing. They just didn't get caught at it and if they did, it wouldn't be as spectacular or nearly as interesting.

As long as we are dishing dirt about spying, how about those Chinese, eh?

[55Jay]

This is about China and what China did.

N. Korea's antics in the 2000's not notwithstanding, America's present role is reactionary, and now supportive to what appears to be a growing coalition and consensus by neighboring/regional nations against China because of what China did.

The posts favoring China or, at best, a desire to see America "butt out", avoids taking responsibility for what has happened, and why. I'm sure China would prefer not having this American interference, which tends to draw instant and prolonged media attention and annoying analysis. Big Brother is watching and, ironically, it seems to wrankle the noses of the Chinese when the shoe's on the other foot?

Hello 55Jay.

Everybody knows that Beijing does actually spy on it's own people. The stuff from Edward Snowden tells us that basically, people in America (and indeed, people in Britain as well) might also be spied on by the government ?

Anyway, can you imagine being Mr Modi, India's leader ? Washington is trying to be your friend, and oh, Washington is actually spying on you ?

Sir, I'm not against the people of America. I do actually have loads of American friends, and yes, some of them vote Republican. I'm only trying to point out that Washington (America's government) does actually do all kinds of naughty things.

Hi. No problem. Some of your posts (and others') do have an emotive USA=Bad, China=Good drum beat to them, but I don't take it personally. I read all points of view and usually land somewhere in the middle.

I don't really think Mr. Modi is naive, and was not genuinely outraged as much in private as he let on in public. He's a big boy invited to sit at the big boy's table, and exploited this fortuitous "revelation" to gain a bit of leverage - as did others.

Back on topic, with a few exceptions of course, the other residents in the Chinese neighborhood, at least for now, seem to prefer a robust American military presence to that of China - in this case, a supportive/defensive counter-weight to China's apparent aspirations. They have their reasons and that seems to be what this thread is about, rather than a historical dressing down of the USA to support a wishful desire that they just go away.

Edited May 4, 2016 by 55Jay

[tonbridgebrit]

This is about China and what China did.

N. Korea's antics in the 2000's not notwithstanding, America's present role is reactionary, and now supportive to what appears to be a growing coalition and consensus by neighboring/regional nations against China because of what China did.

The posts favoring China or, at best, a desire to see America "butt out", avoids taking responsibility for what has happened, and why. I'm sure China would prefer not having this American interference, which tends to draw instant and prolonged media attention and annoying analysis. Big Brother is watching and, ironically, it seems to wrankle the noses of the Chinese when the shoe's on the other foot?

Hello 55Jay.

Everybody knows that Beijing does actually spy on it's own people. The stuff from Edward Snowden tells us that basically, people in America (and indeed, people in Britain as well) might also be spied on by the government ?

Anyway, can you imagine being Mr Modi, India's leader ? Washington is trying to be your friend, and oh, Washington is actually spying on you ?

Sir, I'm not against the people of America. I do actually have loads of American friends, and yes, some of them vote Republican. I'm only trying to point out that Washington (America's government) does actually do all kinds of naughty things.

Hi. No problem. Some of your posts (and others') do have an emotive USA=Bad, China=Good drum beat to them, but I don't take it personally. I read all points of view and usually land somewhere in the middle.

I don't really think Mr. Modi is naive, and was not genuinely outraged as much in private as he let on in public. He's a big boy invited to sit at the big boy's table, and exploited this fortuitous "revelation" to gain a bit of leverage - as did others.

Back on topic, with a few exceptions of course, the other residents in the Chinese neighborhood, at least for now, seem to prefer a robust American military presence to that of China - in this case, a supportive/defensive counter-weight to China's apparent aspirations. They have their reasons and that seems to be what this thread is about, rather than a historical dressing down of the USA to support a wishful desire that they just go away.

Hello there.

I'm not actually a believer in USA=Bad and China=Good. I reckon that both are almost the same.

Ever since World War Two finished, America and Russia have have been carrying out their rival 'campaigns for world domination'. I don't actually reckon that Washington is evil when carving out the New American Empire. Every powerful nation has done the same thing, Britain had a giant empire before the American one. Rome had an empire a long time ago.

The present day American Empire is different to all previous empires. America does not normally do things like invade other countries and stick the American flag on those countries. Instead, America dominates and influences other countries, sometimes sets up puppet governments, and in-directly controls others. It's all done to benefit the USA.

What about China ? China is far more powerful than it was three decades ago. Today, China has a giant trade surplus, and is flooding some other countries with it's tourists.

China itself is now trying to carve out the new Chinese Empire, or 'sphere of dominance'. Beijing is competing with Washington for domination in the Pacific. Washington has been the dominant power in the Pacific since World War Two ended, China is trying to start competing for this domination.

Do I reckon Beijing is better than Washington ? Not really, no. They're both almost the same. It's just that some Americans here (Publicus) constantly bang the anti-China drum. What's the difference between Washington and Beijing ?

Washington has been democratically elected and has given freedom of speech to people. Washington has to make it look like that it's foreign policy is based on spreading freedom and democracy. In Beijing's case, Beijing is not a democracy and has not given freedom of speech to it's people. Beijing does not have to make it look like that it is trying to spread freedom and democracy to others.

This South China Sea thing. It's about Beijing flexing it's muscle into an area that Washington has been flexing it's muscle since World War Two ended.

For the countries in South-East Asia, how about extract the benefits from both the two competitors ?

[AYJAYDEE]

This is about China and what China did.

N. Korea's antics in the 2000's not notwithstanding, America's present role is reactionary, and now supportive to what appears to be a growing coalition and consensus by neighboring/regional nations against China because of what China did.

The posts favoring China or, at best, a desire to see America "butt out", avoids taking responsibility for what has happened, and why. I'm sure China would prefer not having this American interference, which tends to draw instant and prolonged media attention and annoying analysis. Big Brother is watching and, ironically, it seems to wrankle the noses of the Chinese when the shoe's on the other foot?

Hello 55Jay.

Everybody knows that Beijing does actually spy on it's own people. The stuff from Edward Snowden tells us that basically, people in America (and indeed, people in Britain as well) might also be spied on by the government ?

Anyway, can you imagine being Mr Modi, India's leader ? Washington is trying to be your friend, and oh, Washington is actually spying on you ?

Sir, I'm not against the people of America. I do actually have loads of American friends, and yes, some of them vote Republican. I'm only trying to point out that Washington (America's government) does actually do all kinds of naughty things.

Hi. No problem. Some of your posts (and others') do have an emotive USA=Bad, China=Good drum beat to them, but I don't take it personally. I read all points of view and usually land somewhere in the middle.

I don't really think Mr. Modi is naive, and was not genuinely outraged as much in private as he let on in public. He's a big boy invited to sit at the big boy's table, and exploited this fortuitous "revelation" to gain a bit of leverage - as did others.

Back on topic, with a few exceptions of course, the other residents in the Chinese neighborhood, at least for now, seem to prefer a robust American military presence to that of China - in this case, a supportive/defensive counter-weight to China's apparent aspirations. They have their reasons and that seems to be what this thread is about, rather than a historical dressing down of the USA to support a wishful desire that they just go away.

Hello there.

I'm not actually a believer in USA=Bad and China=Good. I reckon that both are almost the same.

Ever since World War Two finished, America and Russia have have been carrying out their rival 'campaigns for world domination'. I don't actually reckon that Washington is evil when carving out the New American Empire. Every powerful nation has done the same thing, Britain had a giant empire before the American one. Rome had an empire a long time ago.

The present day American Empire is different to all previous empires. America does not normally do things like invade other countries and stick the American flag on those countries. Instead, America dominates and influences other countries, sometimes sets up puppet governments, and in-directly controls others. It's all done to benefit the USA.

What about China ? China is far more powerful than it was three decades ago. Today, China has a giant trade surplus, and is flooding some other countries with it's tourists.

China itself is now trying to carve out the new Chinese Empire, or 'sphere of dominance'. Beijing is competing with Washington for domination in the Pacific. Washington has been the dominant power in the Pacific since World War Two ended, China is trying to start competing for this domination.

Do I reckon Beijing is better than Washington ? Not really, no. They're both almost the same. It's just that some Americans here (Publicus) constantly bang the anti-China drum. What's the difference between Washington and Beijing ?

Washington has been democratically elected and has given freedom of speech to people. Washington has to make it look like that it's foreign policy is based on spreading freedom and democracy. In Beijing's case, Beijing is not a democracy and has not given freedom of speech to it's people. Beijing does not have to make it look like that it is trying to spread freedom and democracy to others.

This South China Sea thing. It's about Beijing flexing it's muscle into an area that Washington has been flexing it's muscle since World War Two ended.

For the countries in South-East Asia, how about extract the benefits from both the two competitors ?

best post of the thread

[Publicus]

Yep, it is a dictatorship.

Imagine President Obama showing up in a US military uniform to declare 'mission accomplished' or mission someday before too much longer hopefully accomplished in the SCS.

The timing of this development last week could have been better.

Chinese President Xi Jinping visits the Military Commission Joint Command

Center in uniform after assuming the formal title of commander-in-chief of the

Chinese armed forces. PLA Strategic Command Support Force generals

accompany Xi. This AP screenshot, taken from CCTV Thursday, April 28,

shows Xi and commanders at the PLA underground bunker west of Beijing.

PLA Strategic Support Force (PLASSF). This entity is perhaps the most unique, and most far-reaching, of the service-level reforms. The PLASSF will contain China’s space forces, electronic warfare forces, and network warfare forces.

Where the Russians have created an aerospace service, the Chinese have created an information warfare service. In the struggle to secure information dominance in future informationized conflicts, the PLA is stating that it expects to have to fight with an integrated set of forces capable of dominating the electronic, network (cyber), and space domains. By creating a single service, they are making clear that these forces will be expected to work together in developing doctrine, integrating training, and executing missions.

http://breakingdefense.com/2016/05/what-prc-president-is-really-doing-what-the-uniform-means/?utm_campaign=Breaking+Defense+Daily+Digest&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=29189380&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9fmW1nJ811ANimxTGVVZ2PEeXrjKXf72m64jVXHSMMkohv2p3qN5UVbEVB9FB1LqV2YXXWN11RmzOuVCVSl7lHVb8XuA&_hsmi=29189380

Keep in mind the PLA is the military arm of the Chinese Communist Party and the state it controls, i.e., China.

PLA doctrine in the 21st century is the Three Warfares. They are being applied in the SCS and the East Sea. Not successfully it needs to be noted.

1. Psychological

2. Media/PR

3. Legal, i.e., "lawfare" which might be CCP weakest Three Warfares component in the sovereignty aggressions against the region.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Publicus

[AYJAYDEE]

Yep, it is a dictatorship.

Imagine President Obama showing up in a US military uniform to declare 'mission accomplished' or mission someday before too much longer hopefully accomplished in the SCS.

The timing of this development last week could have been better.

Chinese President Xi Jinping visits the PLA Military Commission Joint Command

Center in uniform after assuming the formal title of commander-in-chief of the

Chinese armed forces. PLA Strategic Command Support Force generals

accompany Xi. This AP screenshot from CCTV shows Xi in a group photo

at the underground bunker west of Beijing.

PLA Strategic Support Force (PLASSF). This entity is perhaps the most unique, and most far-reaching, of the service-level reforms. The PLASSF will contain China’s space forces, electronic warfare forces, and network warfare forces.

Where the Russians have created an aerospace service, the Chinese have created an information warfare service. In the struggle to secure information dominance in future informationized conflicts, the PLA is stating that it expects to have to fight with an integrated set of forces capable of dominating the electronic, network (cyber), and space domains. By creating a single service, they are making clear that these forces will be expected to work together in developing doctrine, integrating training, and executing missions.

http://breakingdefense.com/2016/05/what-prc-president-is-really-doing-what-the-uniform-means/?utm_campaign=Breaking+Defense+Daily+Digest&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=29189380&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9fmW1nJ811ANimxTGVVZ2PEeXrjKXf72m64jVXHSMMkohv2p3qN5UVbEVB9FB1LqV2YXXWN11RmzOuVCVSl7lHVb8XuA&_hsmi=29189380

the fact that he is wearing a uniform is a sign its a dictatorship? lol

[Publicus]

Not singularly no.

[AYJAYDEE]

Not singularly no.

and yet you led with i? lol

Edited May 4, 2016 by AYJAYDEE

[Publicus]

You do point out an interesting dichotomy with some posters, who on the one hand are firmly liberal and dogmatically American Democrat party hacks, and on the other hand, talk about China as if they are General Douglas MacArthur in 1950 trying to convince President Truman to extend the Korean war to China.

Fox News and the Republican party are all about monopolizing nationalism and patriotism, and idolizing militarism, so your point is poignant. And, just yesterday, Donald Trump ratcheted up his rhetoric against China again, saying China is 'raping' America and 'robbing the American piggy bank.'

Pub needs to support Trump!

I love early morning rantings and musings before the caffeine kicks in.

This poster will determine his own world view thx anyway.

Meantime youse guyz can play around inside your own heads.

Publicus, I'm not trying to change your world view. Yes, people like you have got your views, and you're not going to change. I'm convinced anyway, that you know what the real deal is, but you've got something against China. Hence, you knowingly put up stuff that is intended to cause hatred amongst people, hatred for China. And that's the problem. People see the stuff that you put on Thai Visa, and there's a chance that some of them start believing the stuff you've written. And that's what makes you a dangerous character. You yourself know that your stuff is silly and nonsense propaganda.

I'm just here to point out to other Thai Visa viewers how some of your stuff is ridiculous.

I often wonder if an American liberal isn't MORE dangerous than an American conservative. You expect aggressive foreign adventurism from the conservatives but the liberals kinda sneak up on you. Kennedy, Johnson,Carter,Clinton,Obama all went adventuring.

The far left of the US political spectrum has produced its own disasters to include an isolationism that often reflects an ostrichism.

The milquetoast US left has contributed Munichly mightily to the current CCP generated turmoil in the SCS by failing to create an environment or atmosphere of security and stability. The US had not expressed a serious resolve in the SCS until after SecDef Ashton Carter took over at the Pentagon. (A first female SecDef had been President Obama's top choice, Michelle Flournoy.)

A peace prize mentality in the White House has also prevailed in Europe and allowed Putin to pursue his aggressions in Crimea, Ukraine, against Nato, the US itself in air and sea harassments.

As we've seen yet again in the SCS, democracies are predictably slow to respond to aggression and bellicosity, in this instance from the CCP Dictators in Beijing. However, US and Japan successfully stood up to the CCP's aggressions in the East Sea from 2009 into 2013 and things there have fallen largely silent.

SecDef Carter is a realist and he's got an effective containment of CCP response going in the SCS, to include elsewhere as well, in respect of Russia and Iran. The extant problem in the SCS and across the board arises from the far left end of the American political spectrum in its ongoing approach, i.e., ostrichism accompanied by the sounds of chickens clucking.

[AYJAYDEE]

No, not those liberals. I was referring o the much more dangerous neo-liberals in the mold of scoop jackson, perle, wolfowitz, feith etc, you know the ones, your heroes

[boomerangutang]

What's the difference between Washington and Beijing ?

Washington has been democratically elected and has given freedom of speech to people. Washington has to make it look like that it's foreign policy is based on spreading freedom and democracy. In Beijing's case, Beijing is not a democracy and has not given freedom of speech to it's people. Beijing does not have to make it look like that it is trying to spread freedom and democracy to others.

This South China Sea thing. It's about Beijing flexing it's muscle into an area that Washington has been flexing it's muscle since World War Two ended.

For the countries in South-East Asia, how about extract the benefits from both the two competitors ?

You could have made a sentence with just the enlarged font (my doing). It would have been fine. But since you included 'Washington' in your sentence, I'm compelled to respond. Americans have generally been involved with other countries over the past decades. Some grave mistakes along the way, depending on how it's perceived. However, not in VN, Japan or Korea or elsewhere has the US tried to claim ownership of any territory in its escapades.

That's a big distinction in this discussion about the SCS. You call it "flexing its muscle..." but I call it claiming territory which is not theirs. Even with the ridiculous 9-dash line, you'll notice the nine dashes (each as wide as Singapore and as long as Laos) go very close to Philippines' west coast of its islands. Almost touching. Who took the pen and crudely marked those nine dashes? Can any country take a map of an area and mark dashes around the territory they covet? Oh sorry, of course not. Only a large and very populous country like China is allowed to do that.

As for your closing sentence: "For the countries in South-East Asia, how about extract the benefits from both the two competitors ?"

Is that a real question? Do SE Asian countries need to have either the US or China tell them how to do their businesses? That's an obtuse assumption, to put it nicely.

[LawrenceChee]

The possible winner of Monday's Philippines elections is saying he is wiling to talk to China directly

The so call " Asian Trump" is leading the polls heading into election is saying he is willing to talk and also negotiate trade and even consider asking China to assist in rail development

Anyone that drove into makati like me last weekend would thank the heavens for a pragmatic man ...

Won't please the USA who have committed all sorts patrolling the area only to be told they are not needed anymore

But this guy looks like he probably won't bend over to the powers China or anyone else and would put Philippines first although it's encouraging to see he loves trade as much as China

China is not interested to rule over any lands ...they just want to get more trade and make more $$$ ...I don't see them telling the Africans what to do as they traded with them and it won't happen in ASEAN.

Edited May 5, 2016 by LawrenceChee