US military units to stay for South China Sea patrols

[boomerangutang]

lol! you tell us that an ill-equipped NVA can defeat the USA and then theorize that a better equipped Chinese military is ill equipped and therefore cannot handle the USA!!

You have LOL in every post. You must do a lot of laughing out loud. Is it a ridicule laugh? Do I care?

I learned at 4 years old not to laugh at people's ideas because there were probably things about the other people I didn't know about. For example, I just read about a younger than 10 yr old black girl who won a trophy for having the best handwriting. Looking just at her handwriting sample (all block letters) one might think, "ok, nice clean capital letters, but LOL what's the big deal?" Then you find the girl was born with no hands, and you get a deeper perspective.

Read my post again, and you'll see that what I (and Publicus) are saying is there will be no ground war on the Chinese mainland, not involving the US anyway. Not even Trump would be that dumb. The US could crush China on the ground if it wanted to, but what's the point? It would be like saying an elephant can step on a tiger and crush its body. Perhaps that's another LOL for Ayhaydee. Everything else is.

The SCS is a maritime issue, and if there's military action it will happen at sea and air.

Edited May 9, 2016 by boomerangutang

[tonbridgebrit]

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/04/06/4-star-admiral-wants-confront-china-white-house-says-not-so-fast/82472290/



Okay, above is a link to navytimes.com


A few quotes.


[ 4-star admiral wants to confront China, White House says not so fast].


[The U.S. military’s top commander in the Pacific is arguing behind closed doors for a more confrontational approach to counter and reverse China’s strategic gains in the South China Sea, appeals that have met resistance from the White House at nearly every turn.]


[National Security Adviser Susan Rice imposed a gag order on military leaders over the disputed South China Sea in the weeks running up to the last week's high-level nuclear summit, according to two defense officials who asked for anonymity to discuss policy deliberations. China's president, Xi Jinping, attended the summit, held in Washington, and met privately with President Obama.]

Basically, some of America's admirals are banging the war drum, but the White House is silencing them. Good. I'm happy that Washington is controlled by a civilian leader, and not by a load of military people.





[“The White House’s aversion to risk has resulted in an indecisive policy that has failed to deter China’s pursuit of maritime hegemony while confusing and alarming our regional allies and partners,” said Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, in a statement to Navy Times. “China’s increasingly coercive challenge to the rules-based international order must be met with a determined response that demonstrates America’s resolve and reassures the region of our commitment.”]

The above was said by Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, John McCain ?? Isn't John McCain suppose to be a "right wing war-monger" ? I mean, we're talking about a man who fully backed the Iraq invasion of 2003, and he didn't fully support the 'surge' in the number of US soldiers in Iraq in 2005, because the 'surge' was not big enough ? McCain wanted a bigger surge ?


Please go to the link and read the full article.

[keemapoot]

Jane's Defence Weekly is a fun read on occasion, if you like military stuff (used to be mandatory reading in hard copy for company men & mercs abroad ). About a week ago, they had an article about how China's shipbuilding Industry Corporation will now focus its activities on CMI (Civilian-military integration "to spur innovation").

This suggests that it may be increasingly difficult to tell which ships are indeed military and which are civilian in the future in the escalations in the SCS. Smart and sneaky move.

Sun Bo, CSIC president, said specific areas of CMI focus would be power systems, electronic information, electrical equipment, underwater defence systems, and new materials. In the civilian sector, areas of focus will be to develop offshore engineering products, new energy, environmental protection products, and healthcare.

You have to be a client to read the full article: http://www.janes.com/article/59893/china-shipbuilding-focuses-on-civilian-military-integration-to-spur-innovation

[boomerangutang]

That's an interesting point. Merchant and fishing ships with hidden weapons and radar/target acquisition gear on them. No one said battles would be fair. Those are actually tactics (ships disguised).as old as naval battles. However, a newer twist would be China disabling satelittes. Thus far in the history of warfare, there have never been attacks on orbiting structures. That will certainly change in coming years.

Another tactic which has never been tried in warfare: cutting undersea cables - particularly internet.

Picture this: a scruffy looking Chinese fishing vessel with high tech radar/targetting gear hidden on it. In the event of a military confrontation, a US jet/ship senses radar coming from the fishing boat. It sends a missile to knock out the boat. China immediately screams bloody murder, claiming the boat was a simple fishing vessel. Proof, either way, would be difficult, because the vessel is destroyed and under the sea. Even if evidence were brought up by a US salvage crew, China would immediately claim it was faked evidence.

China would lose the ship and some crew, but would gain a giant propaganda victory, painting the US as heartless aggressors.

Edited May 9, 2016 by boomerangutang

[keemapoot]

That's an interesting point. Merchant and fishing ships with hidden weapons and radar/target acquisition gear on them. No one said battles would be fair. Those are actually tactics (ships disguised).as old as naval battles. However, a newer twist would be China disabling satelittes. Thus far in the history of warfare, there have never been attacks on orbiting structures. That will certainly change in coming years.

Another tactic which has never been tried in warfare: cutting undersea cables - particularly internet.

There are other more nefarious uses as well. Interfering or intercepting top secret communiques by hacking into undersea cables. certain portions of major cables are dedicated for top secret government use. All the top executives at global telecoms that are involved in undersea cables must obtain TS and S security clearances, depending on their level of knowledge or involvement. Certain cables have dedicated dark fiber to government use only.

[tonbridgebrit]

Jane's Defence Weekly is a fun read on occasion, if you like military stuff (used to be mandatory reading in hard copy for company men & mercs abroad ). About a week ago, they had an article about how China's shipbuilding Industry Corporation will now focus its activities on CMI (Civilian-military integration "to spur innovation").

Jane's Defence Weekly might be a fun read, but that stuff in the US Navy Times is not funny, in my opinion. You know, as in the stuff about how some of America's senior military staff are trying to encourage a more confrontational attitude towards China in the South China Sea.

I really do hope that Washington has total control of all of it's military hard-ware, and I hope it's impossible for senior military men to do any attack without the permission of President Barak Obama. The last thing we want is whatever American admiral, he's getting more and more frustrated (because he thinks that America is doing nothing about the Chinese dots in the middle of the sea), and he goes and gives orders for a few missiles to be fired at whatever Chinese dots.

When he gives his orders to fire a few missiles, the juniors might turn around and say "but Sir, the President did NOT authorise this". The admiral will probably respond with "look man, I give the orders out here, I'm in charge, nobody else is, you do as I say, do YOU hear me, now, launch them missiles by pressing that button with YOUR finger, and that's an order".

[boomerangutang]

Jane's Defence Weekly is a fun read on occasion, if you like military stuff (used to be mandatory reading in hard copy for company men & mercs abroad ). About a week ago, they had an article about how China's shipbuilding Industry Corporation will now focus its activities on CMI (Civilian-military integration "to spur innovation").

Jane's Defence Weekly might be a fun read, but that stuff in the US Navy Times is not funny, in my opinion. You know, as in the stuff about how some of America's senior military staff are trying to encourage a more confrontational attitude towards China in the South China Sea.

I really do hope that Washington has total control of all of it's military hard-ware, and I hope it's impossible for senior military men to do any attack without the permission of President Barak Obama. The last thing we want is whatever American admiral, he's getting more and more frustrated (because he thinks that America is doing nothing about the Chinese dots in the middle of the sea), and he goes and gives orders for a few missiles to be fired at whatever Chinese dots.

When he gives his orders to fire a few missiles, the juniors might turn around and say "but Sir, the President did NOT authorise this". The admiral will probably respond with "look man, I give the orders out here, I'm in charge, nobody else is, you do as I say, do YOU hear me, now, launch them missiles by pressing that button with YOUR finger, and that's an order".

For sure, we don't want any maverick cowboys launching missiles on a whim and a fancy.

The other side of the coin: sometimes quick decisive action is needed. Quick, even preemptive military action is not always bad. There can be times when it's the best solution to a situation. That's where human decisions become so important. Each situation is unique unto itself, with its own set of parameters. Taking quick, decisive action in the SCS may be just what's best for the scenario, if you agree (as most of us do on this thread, and nearly all country leaders ww) that China is commandeering territory which is not theirs.

I could give some examples where decisive action was warranted, but not taken, thereby leading to worsening problem.

There are other examples where decisive action was taken and it turned out to be problematic.

[Publicus]

Jane's Defence Weekly is a fun read on occasion, if you like military stuff (used to be mandatory reading in hard copy for company men & mercs abroad ). About a week ago, they had an article about how China's shipbuilding Industry Corporation will now focus its activities on CMI (Civilian-military integration "to spur innovation").

This suggests that it may be increasingly difficult to tell which ships are indeed military and which are civilian in the future in the escalations in the SCS. Smart and sneaky move.

Sun Bo, CSIC president, said specific areas of CMI focus would be power systems, electronic information, electrical equipment, underwater defence systems, and new materials. In the civilian sector, areas of focus will be to develop offshore engineering products, new energy, environmental protection products, and healthcare.

You have to be a client to read the full article: http://www.janes.com/article/59893/china-shipbuilding-focuses-on-civilian-military-integration-to-spur-innovation

This is an ado about nothing.

Where any military weapons technology exists, whether integrated with civilian commercial tech or separately, for the weapons system to operate it must first activate radar lock-on targeting. The instant offensive lock-on tech is activated the target's own radar identifies it to enable the target to take evasive measures.

Then the attacker gets blown up and destroyed in a response attack.

US Pacific Command gets all the signatures of such radar activities to include of course gps. This is fact whether the integrated tech is a weapons system or your garden variety signals intelligence gathering.

The use of fishing boats as spy (intelligence) platforms is as old as the legend of Troy, and the use of fishing boats for the modern technology and intelligence gathering, to include offensive weapons platforms, is nothing new either.

Here's an additional word also to the unwise who are only partially informed or sporatic and didactic in their military adventures. Hardly anyone discusses in public the precious and invaluable intelligence source Taiwan is to the United States and its allies in the Western Pacific. This is obviously due to the sensitivities involved.

The United States already gains from Taiwan's surveillance, intelligence, and reconnaissance poten­tial. In recent years, mature and robust cooperation on intelligence collection between the two countries has reportedly been invaluable to the U.S. in process­ing real-time data on Chinese military operations.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/01/americas-stake-in-taiwan

Taiwan's central mountain range is among the highest in all of East Asia, to include Yu Shan aka Mount Morrison at 13,000 feet. Morrison Mount and this mountain range provide upper ele­vation locations for defense surveillance of every kind, to include intelligence platforms that penetrate deep into the CCP mainland. Taiwan's eastern coast drops precipitously into the three miles deep Ryukyu Trench, which makes it the ideal undersea location of Taiwan Navy submarine operations against any CCP amphibious invasion force. It is widely agreed the most effective block of any CCP military actions against Taiwan is a strong intelligence and defense posture.

It is not discussed publicly either that a Potus Hillary Clinton will present a "Big Bang" Taiwan defense package. This is to rectify the fact Taiwan has not had any significant arms sales from the US during the Obama presidency. That this would infuriate the CCP Dictators is of no concern to US military and civilian defense planners. CCP Dictators detest and despise Hillary Clinton more than any single American, and for good reason to the CCP Dictators cause she shrivels their nuts and, moreover, makes a point of doing it.

Taiwan moreover possesses two large islands and reefs in the SCS. One is Pratas aka Dongsha, which is just north of the most strategic islands of the Sea, i.e., Scarborough Shoal. The other is Itu Aba aka Taiping just outside the Spratleys and one of the largest islands and reefs of the SCS.

Taiwan has recently constructed a runway on Itu Aba designed to accommodate USAF C-130 Hercules cargo transports which can be utilized for "humanitarian purposes, such as emergency rescue efforts for sick or injured merchant seamen or fishermen who might encounter difficulties in the treacherous waters of the area."

The Taiwan Coast Guard has several ships and 200 personnel at Itu Aba along with farming, fresh water sources and commercial activities that Taiwan says prove Itu Aba is an island entitled to a 200 nm EEZ.

A big question in the case of the Philippines against the CCP currently about to be decided is who might possess Itu Aba under the UNCILOS. The island is claimed by Taiwan which occupies it, CCP, the Phils, Vietnam. Each lays claim to it but Taiwan which occupies it does not of course have UN recognition as a sovereign nation state. So the PCA in The Hague may not address the issue, but no one yet is venturing a guess in these respects. For the US in the SCS, who owns Itu Aba is not a material matter as Taiwan, the Phils and Vietnam object to CCP, not so much to one another, and all are aligned with the United States.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Publicus

[boomerangutang]

Wow, interesting maps above. The international community should appoint me to designate who gets what. I would do it scientifically and fairly. China would get Hainan and half of the Paracels, that's it. Taiwan seems to be stretching its reach to ridiculous lengths. What about Indonesia - does it get some islands? I see the islands between the two parts of Malaysia don't seem to be claimed by anyone in the 6 maps above, so maybe they're agreed upon as Indonesian. Also, the islands north of Phil's Luzon aren't contested as being Phil's, though they're a lot closer to Taiwan and China than the Spratly Islands and Scarborough Shoals.

[Publicus]

Jane's Defence Weekly is a fun read on occasion, if you like military stuff (used to be mandatory reading in hard copy for company men & mercs abroad ). About a week ago, they had an article about how China's shipbuilding Industry Corporation will now focus its activities on CMI (Civilian-military integration "to spur innovation").

This suggests that it may be increasingly difficult to tell which ships are indeed military and which are civilian in the future in the escalations in the SCS. Smart and sneaky move.

Sun Bo, CSIC president, said specific areas of CMI focus would be power systems, electronic information, electrical equipment, underwater defence systems, and new materials. In the civilian sector, areas of focus will be to develop offshore engineering products, new energy, environmental protection products, and healthcare.

You have to be a client to read the full article: http://www.janes.com/article/59893/china-shipbuilding-focuses-on-civilian-military-integration-to-spur-innovation

No one has to be or do anything.

Jane's is a long time and greatly respected comprehensive organisation that analyses and reports on military and defense matters, extensively, in depth and in detail. Subscribing to Jane's and its respected journal is an excellent idea but it is expensive, which is why its main clients are institutional/corporate.

Anytime Jane's reports on significant military developments it is covered by the global MSM. The only place I see this report outside of Jane's is here.

So thx for the heads up from those who benefit from institutional subscriptions to Jane's. Life does go on however.

[tonbridgebrit]

The United States already gains from Taiwan's surveillance, intelligence, and reconnaissance poten­tial. In recent years, mature and robust cooperation on intelligence collection between the two countries has reportedly been invaluable to the U.S. in process­ing real-time data on Chinese military operations.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/01/americas-stake-in-taiwan

It is not discussed publicly either that a Potus Hillary Clinton will present a "Big Bang" Taiwan defense package. This is to rectify the fact Taiwan has not had any significant arms sales from the US during the Obama presidency. That this would infuriate the CCP Dictators is of no concern to US military and civilian defense planners. CCP Dictators detest and despise Hillary Clinton more than any single American, and for good reason to the CCP Dictators cause she shrivels their nuts and, moreover, makes a point of doing it.

Publicus, Publicus, can YOU stop simply making stuff up ??

"Taiwan has not had any significant arms sales from the US during the Obama presidency."

The Obama government (a government that YOU greatly support) HAS made arms sales to Taiwan, the recent one was actually published here on Thai Visa !

Publicus, try to answer this. Once Hillary is in power, what is Hillary going to do, regarding America's policy towards China (and these Chinese dots in the South China Sea) ??? What is Hillary going to do that is DIFFERENT to Barak Obama ?

I say to YOU and EVERYBODY ELSE, it's very likely that Hillary will continue the policy set by the last THREE US Presidents. The last three presidents have been Bill Clinton (Hillary's husband), George W. Bush, and Barak Obama. It will be a continuation of importing a stack of Chinese goods and a policy of no war or confrontation against China. Right now, with Obama as president, the US warships are patrolling the seas and NOT firing any missiles. We know that.

Do YOU reckon that once Hillary is in power, do you reckon Hillary is going to order a few missiles to be fired on whatever Chinese dots ?

Just try to answer that.

Also, stop coming up with the absurd idea that Beijing's dis-like of Hillary Clinton is greater than it's dis-like for Donald Trump !

Americans do actually know that Trump will probably go ahead with the threat to tax Chinese goods (in a considerable way) entering into America, and hence, massively reduce America's trade deficit with China. This, off-course, will also massively reduce China's trade surplus, and indeed, harm China greatly.

So, Americans who feel that China is a threat, well, they tend to cheer on Trump, and NOT Hillary. We can see this on the various ThaiVisa news articles.

However, YOU are the exception.

Also, Publicus, I have a smirk on face that YOU have put up a link from the Heritage Foundation.

So, you don't like the Republicans. The Heritage Foundation, as most Americans know, is a conservative think-tank that certainly cheers on the Republicans more than the Democrats. So, you hate the Republcans, but when the Heritage Foundation comes up with that propaganda (or nonsense, or rubbish) AGAINST China, oh, all of a sudden, you're willing to use this material ? The Heritage Foundation, the same people, they push ideas that the Republicans tend to support, yes, I do think most of those ideas are harmful to America.

Okay Publicus, at least try to answer some of the questions I've put up.

[Publicus]

Wow, interesting maps above. The international community should appoint me to designate who gets what. I would do it scientifically and fairly. China would get Hainan and half of the Paracels, that's it. Taiwan seems to be stretching its reach to ridiculous lengths. What about Indonesia - does it get some islands? I see the islands between the two parts of Malaysia don't seem to be claimed by anyone in the 6 maps above, so maybe they're agreed upon as Indonesian. Also, the islands north of Phil's Luzon aren't contested as being Phil's, though they're a lot closer to Taiwan and China than the Spratly Islands and Scarborough Shoals.

Here are the SCS international waters shipping lanes CCP is determined to position itself to control. These global shipping lanes in the international waterway that the South China Sea is are identified as international lanes by the United Nations Conference on the International Law of the Sea and its treaty.

Rich in resources and traversed by a quarter of global shipping, the South China Sea is the stage for several territorial disputes that threaten to escalate tensions in the region.

At the heart of these disputes are a series of barren islands in two groups - the Spratly Islands, off the coast of the Philippines, and the Paracel Islands, off the coasts of Vietnam and China.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-09/china-secret-maritime-militia-the-forward-guard-in-south-china/7391216

These international shipping lanes carry ME oil to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Asean. Their strategic importance is more than obvious.

[tonbridgebrit]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/879358-us-183-billion-arms-sales-for-taiwan-draws-chinas-ire/


By the way, I forgot to put this link up on my previous post. The Obama government agreed on a US$1.83 billion arms deal with Taiwan not so long ago. Thai Visa had the article here.

I wonder if Publicus has memory of putting up his posts there ??

Oh well, I suppose Ronald Reagen said that he forgot a lot of stuff when being asked about the arms deal to the Contras.


Publicus, do YOU forget stuff ??

[boomerangutang]

I say to YOU and EVERYBODY ELSE, it's very likely that Hillary will continue the policy set by the last THREE US Presidents. The last three presidents have been Bill Clinton (Hillary's husband), George W. Bush, and Barak Obama. It will be a continuation of importing a stack of Chinese goods and a policy of no war or confrontation against China. Right now, with Obama as president, the US warships are patrolling the seas and NOT firing any missiles. We know that.

Do YOU reckon that once Hillary is in power, do you reckon Hillary is going to order a few missiles to be fired on whatever Chinese dots ?

Just try to answer that.

Also, stop coming up with the absurd idea that Beijing's dis-like of Hillary Clinton is greater than it's dis-like for Donald Trump !

Americans do actually know that Trump will probably go ahead with the threat to tax Chinese goods (in a considerable way) entering into America, and hence, massively reduce America's trade deficit with China. This, off-course, will also massively reduce China's trade surplus, and indeed, harm China greatly.

So, Americans who feel that China is a threat, well, they tend to cheer on Trump, and NOT Hillary. We can see this on the various ThaiVisa news articles.

However, YOU are the exception.

China is half bemused and half spooked by the idea of a Trump presidency. Half bemused because he's such a buffoon, and will weaken America's image worldwide. Plus, he's good entertainment. Half spooked, because he's a loose pop gun. Even he doesn't know what he'll do or think day to day, week to week. I think (and maybe Beijing strategists would agree) that Trump is a coward under the tough-guy facade. The toughest thing he's ever done in his life is call people school yard names like a bratty 7 year old.

I think Beijing is more comfortable with HRC as prez, because they already know her rather well, and she's not a loose cannon or flip-flopper like Trump. She's tough-minded and clear thinking. Even if she chose a military option in the SCS, she would not go batshit about it.

Trump, on the other hand might keep upping the ante, until he orders nukes deployed. One of his trademarks is: "I hate to lose" Plus, he's easily offended, and quick to anger.

She may continue with the lukewarm policy of prior presidents (although Obama has been tightening the screws a bit; see title of this thread), but things don't remain the same. So she will adapt to situations, confer with experts, and decide what is best for US interests and for America's friends in the region.

[AYJAYDEE]

Wow, interesting maps above. The international community should appoint me to designate who gets what. I would do it scientifically and fairly. China would get Hainan and half of the Paracels, that's it. Taiwan seems to be stretching its reach to ridiculous lengths. What about Indonesia - does it get some islands? I see the islands between the two parts of Malaysia don't seem to be claimed by anyone in the 6 maps above, so maybe they're agreed upon as Indonesian. Also, the islands north of Phil's Luzon aren't contested as being Phil's, though they're a lot closer to Taiwan and China than the Spratly Islands and Scarborough Shoals.

Here are the SCS international waters shipping lanes CCP is determined to position itself to control. These global shipping lanes in the international waterway that the South China Sea is are identified as international lanes by the United Nations Conference on the International Law of the Sea and its treaty.

Rich in resources and traversed by a quarter of global shipping, the South China Sea is the stage for several territorial disputes that threaten to escalate tensions in the region.

At the heart of these disputes are a series of barren islands in two groups - the Spratly Islands, off the coast of the Philippines, and the Paracel Islands, off the coasts of Vietnam and China.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-09/china-secret-maritime-militia-the-forward-guard-in-south-china/7391216

These international shipping lanes carry ME oil to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Asean. Their strategic importance is more than obvious.

Lol! America accepts UNCLOS definitions for the SCS but refuses to recognize them for he northwest passage! how typical!!

[tonbridgebrit]

Wow, interesting maps above. The international community should appoint me to designate who gets what. I would do it scientifically and fairly. China would get Hainan and half of the Paracels, that's it. Taiwan seems to be stretching its reach to ridiculous lengths. What about Indonesia - does it get some islands? I see the islands between the two parts of Malaysia don't seem to be claimed by anyone in the 6 maps above, so maybe they're agreed upon as Indonesian. Also, the islands north of Phil's Luzon aren't contested as being Phil's, though they're a lot closer to Taiwan and China than the Spratly Islands and Scarborough Shoals.

Boomer, you've decided to give Beijing Hainan and half of the Paracels ?

Well, Beijing has already got Hainan.

And yes, Taiwan. You reckon they're stretching their reach to ridiculous lengths ? In Taiwan's case, they get NO islands.

Taiwan left main-land China (they did actually take with them the name, Republic of China, important that, bit like a Chinese man who left the business premises, but he took with him the business sign-board) back in the late 1940s and set up "Taiwan". When they left China, they lost or forfeited all rights under the "China" name.

Five countries won World War Two, they were America, Russia, Britain, France, and China. These five countries, even today, they are the Big Five in the United Nations, they are the five permanent members of the UN Security Council.

Taiwan (Republic of China) was recognized as one of the Big Five straight after 1945. Mao Zedong and Peoples' Republic of China did not exist until 1949.

If Taiwan had of stayed in China, then, today, THEY would be in the big five. They're NOT. And indeed, IF they had of stayed in, they can claim whatever islands.

And if Taiwan claims any islands (yes, they attempt to claim so), they simply make themselves look ridiculous ! Is the claim on the grounds that they claim them from the late 1940s onwards ? After all, that's when they were set up or founded. It's a bit like how 1776 is an important year to America, it's the year America was founded.

Or, are they claiming whatever islands, because they WAS China before the late 1940s ? Oh, so are they China today ?

[Publicus]

The guy may have something of a point. CCP Dictators in Beijing have never been able to say yes to negotiations, mutual agreements, common understandings, equal participation, cooperation, joint endeavors etc etc. Beijing has been entirely unable to say yes in respect of the SCS so this guy might be calling Beijing's hand.

Philippines’ Duterte calls for summit to solve South China Sea spat

(From Reuters)

The (presumptive) winner of the Philippine election on Monday said that if he became president he would settle rows over the South China Sea with multilateral talks that would include [Philippines] allies the United States, Japan and Australia as well as claimant nations.

Rodrigo Duterte, the tough-talking mayor of Davao City, said China should respect the 200 nautical mile Exclusive Economic Zone granted to coastal states under international law and should team up with the Philippines to jointly exploit offshore oil and gas.

“I would say to China, ‘do not claim anything here and I will not insist also that it is ours’. But then I will just keep (turn) a blind eye,” he told reporters, as results of an unofficial vote count came in showing him winning a hefty 40 percent of the votes.

“If you want joint ventures, fine, we can get the gas and the oil,” he said. “I believe in sharing.”

http://atimes.com/2016/05/philippines-duterte-calls-for-summit-to-solve-south-china-sea-spat/

It's an idea still in its rough state so let's see how this might sort out.

The one thing all the evidence reveals is that CCP Dictators in Beijing have nothing to discuss unless there are bilateral meetings only. The ruling of the Court in The Hague may shake some things loose, maybe not. Beijing just does not know how to say yes to anything anywhere or anytime, so let's see how the Boyz react to this idea.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Publicus

[Publicus]

CCP Dictators are unrelenting.

Vietnam comes forward at this point due to its recent opening of its port in Cam Ranh Bay at central Vietnam, the former Navy base constructed by the USN during the Vietnam war. Hanoi has spent $87 million renovating the base with navy ships scheduled to visit from US and Japan.

Cam Ranh Bay can continue to accommodate USN aircraft carriers and has a functioning airport next to it that is suitable to large cargo planes and strategic bombers.

South China Sea: China Vows Retaliation, Weaponizes Fishermen In Disputed Region

Today, a new report reveals that China has turned its own fishermen into its maritime militia. These men hail from Hainan Island, a Chinese province that faces the disputed islands and more importantly, the island of Luzon in the Philippines where the country’s capital is located.

According to ABC in Australia, Chinese fishermen are paid around $20,000 for each trip where they are sent to disputed islands about four times a year. One fisherman also revealed that their next mission is to occupy the Scarborough Shoal and build islands on it.

This territory is critical to the Chinese if they want to gain complete control of the South China Sea. For this mission, the Chinese government is said to be training crews for as much as 100 ships. (emphasis added)

http://www.morningnewsusa.com/south-china-sea-ww3-china-vows-retaliation-weaponizes-fishermen-disputed-region-2376550.html

China's secret maritime militia: Fishermen the forward guard in South China Sea dispute

The fishermen of Hainan Island are the forward guards in China's battle to take all of the South China Sea.

Operating as a guerrilla force and under civilian cover, they occupy and help build disputed islands.

They are just about to gear up for the most important mission yet: to occupy and build islands in the Scarborough Shoal, only 200 kilometres from the Philippines.

Once complete it will give China its iron triangle and complete control over the South China Sea. (emphasis added)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-09/china-secret-maritime-militia-the-forward-guard-in-south-china/7391216

Edited May 9, 2016 by Publicus

[AYJAYDEE]

Wow, interesting maps above. The international community should appoint me to designate who gets what. I would do it scientifically and fairly. China would get Hainan and half of the Paracels, that's it. Taiwan seems to be stretching its reach to ridiculous lengths. What about Indonesia - does it get some islands? I see the islands between the two parts of Malaysia don't seem to be claimed by anyone in the 6 maps above, so maybe they're agreed upon as Indonesian. Also, the islands north of Phil's Luzon aren't contested as being Phil's, though they're a lot closer to Taiwan and China than the Spratly Islands and Scarborough Shoals.

Boomer, you've decided to give Beijing Hainan and half of the Paracels ?

Well, Beijing has already got Hainan.

And yes, Taiwan. You reckon they're stretching their reach to ridiculous lengths ? In Taiwan's case, they get NO islands.

Taiwan left main-land China (they did actually take with them the name, Republic of China, important that, bit like a Chinese man who left the business premises, but he took with him the business sign-board) back in the late 1940s and set up "Taiwan". When they left China, they lost or forfeited all rights under the "China" name.

Five countries won World War Two, they were America, Russia, Britain, France, and China. These five countries, even today, they are the Big Five in the United Nations, they are the five permanent members of the UN Security Council.

Taiwan (Republic of China) was recognized as one of the Big Five straight after 1945. Mao Zedong and Peoples' Republic of China did not exist until 1949.

If Taiwan had of stayed in China, then, today, THEY would be in the big five. They're NOT. And indeed, IF they had of stayed in, they can claim whatever islands.

And if Taiwan claims any islands (yes, they attempt to claim so), they simply make themselves look ridiculous ! Is the claim on the grounds that they claim them from the late 1940s onwards ? After all, that's when they were set up or founded. It's a bit like how 1776 is an important year to America, it's the year America was founded.

Or, are they claiming whatever islands, because they WAS China before the late 1940s ? Oh, so are they China today ?

when the french goverment left france in ww ii were they refused recognition as the representatives of france?

[AYJAYDEE]

lol! you tell us that an ill-equipped NVA can defeat the USA and then theorize that a better equipped Chinese military is ill equipped and therefore cannot handle the USA!!

You have LOL in every post. You must do a lot of laughing out loud. Is it a ridicule laugh? Do I care?

I learned at 4 years old not to laugh at people's ideas because there were probably things about the other people I didn't know about. For example, I just read about a younger than 10 yr old black girl who won a trophy for having the best handwriting. Looking just at her handwriting sample (all block letters) one might think, "ok, nice clean capital letters, but LOL what's the big deal?" Then you find the girl was born with no hands, and you get a deeper perspective.

Read my post again, and you'll see that what I (and Publicus) are saying is there will be no ground war on the Chinese mainland, not involving the US anyway. Not even Trump would be that dumb. The US could crush China on the ground if it wanted to, but what's the point? It would be like saying an elephant can step on a tiger and crush its body. Perhaps that's another LOL for Ayhaydee. Everything else is.

The SCS is a maritime issue, and if there's military action it will happen at sea and air.

you guys sound like macnamara and westmoreland! and I lol because its so hilarious to listen to your chest thumping!! lol

[keemapoot]

The US is really ramping up its attention to Vietnam right now in anticipation of Obama's visit later this month. For those of us who see the TPP trade pact as a useful tool in the toolbox to bring China to the bargaining table, we are supporting Clinton for that reason, and because Trump doesn't have a clue, not because we like her. (Though, as we've seen today, the new Donald Trump impersonator Duterte Philippine president says he's also open to negotiations with China).

Additionally, reported today, Obama is considering lifting the 30 year old arms ban on Vietnam, which is yet another sign of intelligent foreign policy, using all the tools in your toolbox, instead of just the hammer, as one poster on this thread continues to argue. Finesse over brute force. Maintain the threat and the capability, but don't use it unless a last resort.

The debate within the U.S. administration is coming to a head amid preparations for Obama’s trip to Vietnam in the second half of May to bolster ties between Washington and Hanoi, former wartime enemies who are increasingly partners against China’s growing territorial assertiveness in the South China Sea.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/obama-weighs-historic-dec/2771092.html

[Publicus]

lol! you tell us that an ill-equipped NVA can defeat the USA and then theorize that a better equipped Chinese military is ill equipped and therefore cannot handle the USA!!

You have LOL in every post. You must do a lot of laughing out loud. Is it a ridicule laugh? Do I care?

I learned at 4 years old not to laugh at people's ideas because there were probably things about the other people I didn't know about. For example, I just read about a younger than 10 yr old black girl who won a trophy for having the best handwriting. Looking just at her handwriting sample (all block letters) one might think, "ok, nice clean capital letters, but LOL what's the big deal?" Then you find the girl was born with no hands, and you get a deeper perspective.

Read my post again, and you'll see that what I (and Publicus) are saying is there will be no ground war on the Chinese mainland, not involving the US anyway. Not even Trump would be that dumb. The US could crush China on the ground if it wanted to, but what's the point? It would be like saying an elephant can step on a tiger and crush its body. Perhaps that's another LOL for Ayhaydee. Everything else is.

The SCS is a maritime issue, and if there's military action it will happen at sea and air.

you guys sound like macnamara and westmoreland! and I lol because its so hilarious to listen to your chest thumping!! lol

No more land wars.

Air-Land Combat is out.

Air-Sea Battle is in.

MacNamara and Westmoreland are dead. It took 'em a long time to die even after they were interred, but the fact remains their manner of warfare is dead. Finally and at long last dead.

This is the South China Sea, the East Sea of Japan, the UN International Convention on the Law of the Sea and its Treaty.

I can have a humvee take you to either a ship or a plane, that would be up to you, it's just that you can't have any more tanks in deserts or troops deployed in jungles.

Do try to keep up plse thx cause you're so very yesterday.

[AYJAYDEE]

lol! you tell us that an ill-equipped NVA can defeat the USA and then theorize that a better equipped Chinese military is ill equipped and therefore cannot handle the USA!!

You have LOL in every post. You must do a lot of laughing out loud. Is it a ridicule laugh? Do I care?

I learned at 4 years old not to laugh at people's ideas because there were probably things about the other people I didn't know about. For example, I just read about a younger than 10 yr old black girl who won a trophy for having the best handwriting. Looking just at her handwriting sample (all block letters) one might think, "ok, nice clean capital letters, but LOL what's the big deal?" Then you find the girl was born with no hands, and you get a deeper perspective.

Read my post again, and you'll see that what I (and Publicus) are saying is there will be no ground war on the Chinese mainland, not involving the US anyway. Not even Trump would be that dumb. The US could crush China on the ground if it wanted to, but what's the point? It would be like saying an elephant can step on a tiger and crush its body. Perhaps that's another LOL for Ayhaydee. Everything else is.

The SCS is a maritime issue, and if there's military action it will happen at sea and air.

you guys sound like macnamara and westmoreland! and I lol because its so hilarious to listen to your chest thumping!! lol

No more land wars.

Air-Land Combat is out.

Air-Sea Battle is in.

MacNamara and Westmoreland are dead. It took 'em a long time to die even after they were interred, but the fact remains their manner of warfare is dead. Finally and at long last dead.

This is the South China Sea, the East Sea of Japan, the UN International Convention on the Law of the Sea and its Treaty.

I can have a humvee take you to either a ship or a plane, that would be up to you, it's just that you can't have any more tanks in deserts or troops deployed in jungles.

Do try to keep up plse thx cause you're so very yesterday.

I was referring to your hilarious optimism! try and keep up

[LawrenceChee]

The guy may have something of a point. CCP Dictators in Beijing have never been able to say yes to negotiations, mutual agreements, common understandings, equal participation, cooperation, joint endeavors etc etc. Beijing has been entirely unable to say yes in respect of the SCS so this guy might be calling Beijing's hand.

Philippines’ Duterte calls for summit to solve South China Sea spat

(From Reuters)

The (presumptive) winner of the Philippine election on Monday said that if he became president he would settle rows over the South China Sea with multilateral talks that would include [Philippines] allies the United States, Japan and Australia as well as claimant nations.

Rodrigo Duterte, the tough-talking mayor of Davao City, said China should respect the 200 nautical mile Exclusive Economic Zone granted to coastal states under international law and should team up with the Philippines to jointly exploit offshore oil and gas.

“I would say to China, ‘do not claim anything here and I will not insist also that it is ours’. But then I will just keep (turn) a blind eye,” he told reporters, as results of an unofficial vote count came in showing him winning a hefty 40 percent of the votes.

“If you want joint ventures, fine, we can get the gas and the oil,” he said. “I believe in sharing.”

http://atimes.com/2016/05/philippines-duterte-calls-for-summit-to-solve-south-china-sea-spat/

It's an idea still in its rough state so let's see how this might sort out.

The one thing all the evidence reveals is that CCP Dictators in Beijing have nothing to discuss unless there are bilateral meetings only. The ruling of the Court in The Hague may shake some things loose, maybe not. Beijing just does not know how to say yes to anything anywhere or anytime, so let's see how the Boyz react to this idea.

If you read what Duerte is saying ...it fits China's bill just fine ...he is probably president as we wake up to our tea this morning

" Do not claim anything here and we will also not insist it's ours " - in Chinese meaning ...this means don't press the issue for the next six years , let the guy do his wild whacks like driving a jet ski there and then ignore the court hearing as he is not pressing it

" If you want the gas and oil , I believe in sharing " - In Chinese meaning , the guy is ready to do business , lets go back to the tables and see what's the $$$ amount to get the agreement and then wait , don't start exploring it now ...wait. There is a glut now and lots of cheap resources available plus there is slower growth and lesser needs at home ...no need to rush ...wait for a better price

If Duerte gets his confirmation win and Marcos wins the vice presidential bid, you can be sure USA is back to its original position , awkward .

USA is here because of one reason , it went into Iraq thinking the resources is an easy grab , turn out to be a prom queen nightmare with insane demands and now the whole region has gone out of control , seeking a quiet and dignified retreat , now is turning into Asia trying to stay relevant and seeing if it can get this piece of sugarcane from the panda

Sorry Comrade P , Panda not playing nice this time ...

[Publicus]

The US is really ramping up its attention to Vietnam right now in anticipation of Obama's visit later this month. For those of us who see the TPP trade pact as a useful tool in the toolbox to bring China to the bargaining table, we are supporting Clinton for that reason, and because Trump doesn't have a clue, not because we like her. (Though, as we've seen today, the new Donald Trump impersonator Duterte Philippine president says he's also open to negotiations with China).

Additionally, reported today, Obama is considering lifting the 30 year old arms ban on Vietnam, which is yet another sign of intelligent foreign policy, using all the tools in your toolbox, instead of just the hammer, as one poster on this thread continues to argue. Finesse over brute force. Maintain the threat and the capability, but don't use it unless a last resort.

The debate within the U.S. administration is coming to a head amid preparations for Obama’s trip to Vietnam in the second half of May to bolster ties between Washington and Hanoi, former wartime enemies who are increasingly partners against China’s growing territorial assertiveness in the South China Sea.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/obama-weighs-historic-dec/2771092.html

Good to see the Green Team is starting to catch up.

As this poster has pointed out at this thread (and at other threads), CCP Dictators were never intended to be included in the founding of the TPP. CCP was always on the docket to be considered in a second round of membership, or possibly even a third round of entrants.

No way CCP was going to be a founding member of TPP when the by-laws were initiated, the rules, regs, terms of definition and the founding charter was drafted, revised, finalised.

CCP can enter TPP later -- and only when it agrees to abide by the extant rules of the ongoing and thriving TPP.

Welcome aboard.

[Publicus]

you guys sound like macnamara and westmoreland! and I lol because its so hilarious to listen to your chest thumping!! lol

No more land wars.

Air-Land Combat is out.

Air-Sea Battle is in.

MacNamara and Westmoreland are dead. It took 'em a long time to die even after they were interred, but the fact remains their manner of warfare is dead. Finally and at long last dead.

This is the South China Sea, the East Sea of Japan, the UN International Convention on the Law of the Sea and its Treaty.

I can have a humvee take you to either a ship or a plane, that would be up to you, it's just that you can't have any more tanks in deserts or troops deployed in jungles.

Do try to keep up plse thx cause you're so very yesterday.

I was referring to your hilarious optimism! try and keep up

This is cool, reading the one-liner blasts from the past. The top forty one-liners collection.

It's just so cool that I don't have to go to a spirit house to be communed with the past. I can simply and reliably look at the predictable post that follows each of my posts. That's where I can see history etched out as one-liners and as being set in stone in the present and going forward.

lol.

[Publicus]

lol! you tell us that an ill-equipped NVA can defeat the USA and then theorize that a better equipped Chinese military is ill equipped and therefore cannot handle the USA!!

You have LOL in every post. You must do a lot of laughing out loud. Is it a ridicule laugh? Do I care?

I learned at 4 years old not to laugh at people's ideas because there were probably things about the other people I didn't know about. For example, I just read about a younger than 10 yr old black girl who won a trophy for having the best handwriting. Looking just at her handwriting sample (all block letters) one might think, "ok, nice clean capital letters, but LOL what's the big deal?" Then you find the girl was born with no hands, and you get a deeper perspective.

Read my post again, and you'll see that what I (and Publicus) are saying is there will be no ground war on the Chinese mainland, not involving the US anyway. Not even Trump would be that dumb. The US could crush China on the ground if it wanted to, but what's the point? It would be like saying an elephant can step on a tiger and crush its body. Perhaps that's another LOL for Ayhaydee. Everything else is.

The SCS is a maritime issue, and if there's military action it will happen at sea and air.

you guys sound like macnamara and westmoreland! and I lol because its so hilarious to listen to your chest thumping!! lol

You're so yesterday that I welcome you as a one-liner antagonist, so all of this is taken in a good spirit thx.

Air-Sea Battle....click your old and worn down heels and say it three times.......

Rather, many point to the geostrategic value of the South China Sea. "The logical conclusion drawn from China's adding islands in the southern part of the South China Sea with military-sized runways, substantial port facilities, radar platforms and space to accommodate military forces is that China's objective is to dominate the waters of the South China Sea at will. Building the islands is therefore a significant strategic event and they leave the potential for the South China Sea to become a Chinese strait, rather than an open component of the global maritime commons.

China and Russia were also concerned about the US’ shift towards the “Third Offset” strategy.

The key areas where the Pentagon will focus its budget under this strategy are anti-access and area-denial (A2/AD and Air-Sea Battle), guided munitions; undersea warfare; cyber and electronic warfare; and new operating concepts. The USA hopes this will provide ways to neutralise threats from China and Russia’s militaries, which are growing increasingly sophisticated but continue to rely heavily on conventional weapons.

http://moderndiplomacy.eu/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=1398:china-s-new-strategy-in-south-china-sea&Itemid=645

Edited May 10, 2016 by Publicus

[AYJAYDEE]

lol! you tell us that an ill-equipped NVA can defeat the USA and then theorize that a better equipped Chinese military is ill equipped and therefore cannot handle the USA!!

You have LOL in every post. You must do a lot of laughing out loud. Is it a ridicule laugh? Do I care?

I learned at 4 years old not to laugh at people's ideas because there were probably things about the other people I didn't know about. For example, I just read about a younger than 10 yr old black girl who won a trophy for having the best handwriting. Looking just at her handwriting sample (all block letters) one might think, "ok, nice clean capital letters, but LOL what's the big deal?" Then you find the girl was born with no hands, and you get a deeper perspective.

Read my post again, and you'll see that what I (and Publicus) are saying is there will be no ground war on the Chinese mainland, not involving the US anyway. Not even Trump would be that dumb. The US could crush China on the ground if it wanted to, but what's the point? It would be like saying an elephant can step on a tiger and crush its body. Perhaps that's another LOL for Ayhaydee. Everything else is.

The SCS is a maritime issue, and if there's military action it will happen at sea and air.

you guys sound like macnamara and westmoreland! and I lol because its so hilarious to listen to your chest thumping!! lol

You're so yesterday that I welcome you as a one-liner antagonist, so all of this is taken in a good spirit thx.

Air-Sea Battle....click your old and worn down heels and say it three times.......

Rather, many point to the geostrategic value of the South China Sea. "The logical conclusion drawn from China's adding islands in the southern part of the South China Sea with military-sized runways, substantial port facilities, radar platforms and space to accommodate military forces is that China's objective is to dominate the waters of the South China Sea at will. Building the islands is therefore a significant strategic event and they leave the potential for the South China Sea to become a Chinese strait, rather than an open component of the global maritime commons.

China and Russia were also concerned about the US’ shift towards the “Third Offset” strategy. The approach calls for the Pentagon to do more with less, as its traditional military advantages – such as a larger army and navy – are steadily eroded.

The key areas where the Pentagon will focus its budget under this strategy are anti-access and area-denial, guided munitions; undersea warfare; cyber and electronic warfare; and new operating concepts. The USA hopes this will provide ways to neutralise threats from China and Russia’s militaries, which are growing increasingly sophisticated but continue to rely heavily on conventional weapons.

http://moderndiplomacy.eu/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=1398:china-s-new-strategy-in-south-china-sea&Itemid=645

keep thumpin that chest ! lol

[keemapoot]

Good to see the Green Team is starting to catch up.

As this poster has pointed out at this thread (and at other threads), CCP Dictators were never intended to be included in the founding of the TPP. CCP was always on the docket to be considered in a second round of membership, or possibly even a third round of entrants.

No way CCP was going to be a founding member of TPP when the by-laws were initiated, the rules, regs, terms of definition and the founding charter was drafted, revised, finalised.

CCP can enter TPP later -- and only when it agrees to abide by the extant rules of the ongoing and thriving TPP.

Welcome aboard.

Don't make the mistake of thinking China has not already found out a way in to the TPP, even if not officially.

And thanks for the welcome aboard, but don't make the mistake of thinking I like Hilary. But as you know, we in the green team are merely amoral creatures chasing the almighty buck, and she is good for business. I once had a conversation with a hooker in Moscow who told me she would sleep with an alligator for money.

[boomerangutang]

Wow, interesting maps above. The international community should appoint me to designate who gets what. I would do it scientifically and fairly. China would get Hainan and half of the Paracels, that's it. Taiwan seems to be stretching its reach to ridiculous lengths. What about Indonesia - does it get some islands? I see the islands between the two parts of Malaysia don't seem to be claimed by anyone in the 6 maps above, so maybe they're agreed upon as Indonesian. Also, the islands north of Phil's Luzon aren't contested as being Phil's, though they're a lot closer to Taiwan and China than the Spratly Islands and Scarborough Shoals.

Boomer, you've decided to give Beijing Hainan and half of the Paracels ?

Well, Beijing has already got Hainan.

And yes, Taiwan. You reckon they're stretching their reach to ridiculous lengths ? In Taiwan's case, they get NO islands.

Taiwan left main-land China (they did actually take with them the name, Republic of China, important that, bit like a Chinese man who left the business premises, but he took with him the business sign-board) back in the late 1940s and set up "Taiwan". When they left China, they lost or forfeited all rights under the "China" name.

Re; Hainan. Yes, I know it's Chinese but I put it in the mix in order to shake up peoples' perspectives a bit. Spratly Islands are Philippine and Hainan is Chinese. But now China wants to reconfigure the chess board. China bigger and has a large military, so it assumes it can just do as it pleases when dealing with smaller countries. If Phil's had a stronger military than China, would it lay claim to Hainan? ....give it a Fil-sounding name (Malacanana Island?), find some old parchment showing Fil' boats docked there in the past, and proceed to plant bananas, import jeepneys, and occupy it.

As for Taiwan, that's a big topic. I don't think we need to drag up all its history and bandy it around here. In relation to the disputed islands, Taiwan should butt out. It's not China even if it uses the name. It's Taiwan and it would be a sovereign country if mainlanders weren't so covetous, ....and weren't so busy paying off little countries ww to shun Taiwan. I generally put up with the UN, but their refusing to recognize Taiwan for the country it is, is despicable. The Olympics are a bit better in recognizing it.