Thai girlfriend pregnant on a UK tourist/fiance visa, can she have her baby in UK?

[NanLaew]

Very complicated reports!

Do governments demand a DNA test prior to considering citizenship? ...

The US does.

[cadle1]

I think some people not read the question! I will answer because my Thai wife had our baby 6 month ago. If lady comes here on tourist visa she he will have to pay. When my wife was admitted to hospital here in Wales the first question the ward sister asked me was her status in uk I told her she was on spousal visa and no charge to me...Visa tourist is completely different situation...

[BritManToo]

About 10 years ago a friend of mine took his girlfriend back to the UK on fiance visa. They got married and had the baby shortly afterwards. There was no problem having the baby on the NHS but he was presented with a bill following the birth, around £1500 if I remember right. He argued the toss but lost, I think it was on the basis she was pregnant before she went to the UK.

Nobody can force you to pay.

They can give a bill, you just don't pay it.

And at the last poster, you don't have to tell the truth.

They aren't going to check her VISA, 'sorry don't have it with me'.

Edited April 16, 2016 by BritManToo

[beano2274]

My Opinion.

The Immigration officer on arrival in the UK might refuse her entry as he/she might believe that the lady in question will have the baby in the UK, then use this to remain in the UK indefinitely via Human Rights, and not return home to Thailand.

There could be further consequences as they might believe she tried to circumnavigate the Visa rules by getting a Tourist visa then trying to remain in the UK, the Embassy in Bangkok would then refuse any further applications and this could also affect Visa Applications to other countries.

Remember this is my opinion.

Edited April 16, 2016 by beano2274

[7by7]

Entitlement to free NHS care is dependent upon residency, not nationality.

Anyone who is ‘ordinarily resident’ in the UK is entitled to free NHS care. This includes those coming here for a settled purpose and British citizens returning to the UK to resume residence.

Anyone entering the UK temporarily is not entitled to free NHS care. This includes visitors and British ex pats returning for a visit. But there are some exceptions, the main one being initial emergency treatment in an A&E department.

However, an NHS hospital is not going to refuse treatment to anyone who needs it; including a pregnant woman about to give birth! Even if they cannot afford to pay at the time.

But, if not entitled to free care, you will be presented with a bill. Any future UK visa applications may be refused until that bill is paid.

Hospitals are supposed to check, and many (most? all?) do ask for details of the patients GP so that the treatment they receive can be passed on to their GP and added to their medical records. There is also the assumption that if they are registered with a GP they are entitled to free treatment. If the patient isn’t registered, then the hospital should make further enquiries into the patient’s nationality and immigration status and ask to see evidence that the patient is entitled to free treatment. But how many do so, I have no idea.

Since, if memory serves, 2015 anyone applying to enter the UK for more than 6 months or applying for further leave to remain in the UK has to pay the Immigration Health Surcharge of £200 p.a. as part of their application.

[BritManToo]

My Opinion.

The Immigration officer on arrival in the UK might refuse her entry as he/she might believe that the lady in question will have the baby in the UK, then use this to remain in the UK indefinitely via Human Rights, and not return home to Thailand.

There could be further consequences as they might believe she tried to circumnavigate the Visa rules by getting a Tourist visa then trying to remain in the UK, the Embassy in Bangkok would then refuse any further applications and this could also affect Visa Applications to other countries.

Remember this is my opinion.

Do immigration ask every foreign woman who enters the UK if she's pregnant?

I don't think so.

Edited April 16, 2016 by BritManToo

[beano2274]

My Opinion.

The Immigration officer on arrival in the UK might refuse her entry as he/she might believe that the lady in question will have the baby in the UK, then use this to remain in the UK indefinitely via Human Rights, and not return home to Thailand.

There could be further consequences as they might believe she tried to circumnavigate the Visa rules by getting a Tourist visa then trying to remain in the UK, the Embassy in Bangkok would then refuse any further applications and this could also affect Visa Applications to other countries.

Remember this is my opinion.

Do immigration ask every foreign woman who enters the UK if she's pregnant?

I don't think so.

I said my opinion.

Also some of the immigration officers are women, and might notice that she is pregnant. If this lady returns to Thailand she might have issues when applying again as per the comment from 7by7, this can also include Visas to other countries.

[7by7]

If your friend checks the UK immigration regulations he will find that being born in the UK definitely does not give the baby any automatic right to apply for UK citizenship, the parents would have to be married.

If you checked you would see that you are completely wrong!

If born in the UK or a qualifying territory and at least one parent is a British citizen or living in the UK without time restriction, e.g. holds ILR, then the child will automatically be British; whether the parents are married or not.

The child will be British otherwise than by descent and so will be able to pass their British citizenship onto their children no matter where those children are born.

If born outside the UK or a qualifying territory and at least one parent is British otherwise than by descent than the child will also be automatically British, again whether the parents are married or not. Although the child would then be British by descent and so could only pass their British nationality onto their children if those children were born inside the UK or a qualifying territory.

N.B. The qualifying territories are all the British overseas territories, except the sovereign base areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia (in Cyprus).

(edited to correct typo)

Edited April 16, 2016 by 7by7

[7by7]

My Opinion.

The Immigration officer on arrival in the UK might refuse her entry as he/she might believe that the lady in question will have the baby in the UK, then use this to remain in the UK indefinitely via Human Rights, and not return home to Thailand.

There could be further consequences as they might believe she tried to circumnavigate the Visa rules by getting a Tourist visa then trying to remain in the UK, the Embassy in Bangkok would then refuse any further applications and this could also affect Visa Applications to other countries.

Remember this is my opinion.

Do immigration ask every foreign woman who enters the UK if she's pregnant?

I don't think so.

I said my opinion.

Also some of the immigration officers are women, and might notice that she is pregnant. If this lady returns to Thailand she might have issues when applying again as per the comment from 7by7, this can also include Visas to other countries.

Even the male IOs may notice if she has a large bump!

Tony M's warning earlier in the topic should be taken seriously.

[Basil B]

My Opinion.

The Immigration officer on arrival in the UK might refuse her entry as he/she might believe that the lady in question will have the baby in the UK, then use this to remain in the UK indefinitely via Human Rights, and not return home to Thailand.

There could be further consequences as they might believe she tried to circumnavigate the Visa rules by getting a Tourist visa then trying to remain in the UK, the Embassy in Bangkok would then refuse any further applications and this could also affect Visa Applications to other countries.

Remember this is my opinion.

Do immigration ask every foreign woman who enters the UK if she's pregnant?

I don't think so.

But may well do so if they think so...

Immigration officers are not normally stupid, so if they were to see a bump, or more to the point suspect that a female maybe concealing a bump.

They will ask questions, one important factor could it cause a overstay if she were to be refused boarding on the return flight, depends on the visa held but I an sure she would be asked when the baby was due and if not satisfied she may be refereed for a medical examination, or just refused entry, another consideration should be antenatal care, would they be entailed to it, and is there a risk if they do not have access?

[bobrussell]

If an immigration officer decides that pregnancy is an issue then they may well decide that the purpose of the visit is no longer simply tourism. They may decide that the change in circumstances makes the visa invalid. They may not notice at all.

I would agree that the warnings are not to be ignored. Tony M is very experienced and immigration officers can be very experienced!

If the baby is born in the UK whilst the mother is here on a tourist visa then the NHS will present a bill at the end. They are much more likely to check on immigration status than a few years ago.

An outstanding NHS bill will have a major impact on future visa applications!

Is it a risk that is worth taking?

[catman20]

Maybe Baby's Father is Thai?

[Richard W]

But a fiance visa, although only valid for 6 months, is a type of settlement visa. It allows the holder to travel to the UK, marry their fiance and then apply for further leave to remain after the marriage.

As it's a form of settlement visa she would be classed as being in the UK for a 'settled purpose' and so considered as 'ordinarily resident' and so entitled to NHS treatment. See chapter 3 of Guidance on implementing the overseas visitor hospital charging regulations 2015

Not any more. See Section 3.10 of the said guidance. People with limited leave to remain are not ordinarily resident for NHS charging purposes (Immigration Act 2014 Section 39(1)( . As the IHS is not payable for visas of six months or less, she'd be in the same position as a visitor. I don't know when IHS cover starts on the settlement route. I suspect not until the further leave for the start of the five year probationary period starts.

[7by7]

I stand corrected; thank you.

It does seem that as a fiance visa is valid for 6 months that the surcharge is not payable until the FLR application after the marriage.

But I'm still not sure if this means the person is not entitled to NHS treatment until then; after all, they are in the UK for a settled purpose.

[MiKT]

I'm not trying to be alarmist, but your friend , and his girlfriend, should think about what happens if either the airline, or the immigration officer in UK, see, or suspect, that she is pregnant. Although it may well be true that she did not know this when the visa application was submitted, it is a change of circumstances since the visa was issued, and this could "invalidate" the visa. She could either be refused permission to fly, or refused entry to the UK.

She will be 4 or 5 months pregnant when she flies ? She might "show", but then again she might not.

This is totally incorrect, the airlines only care if you are pregnant and prevent flying at the very latest stages of pregnancy simply to ensure you don't have a baby mid-flight. Nothing to do with immigration.

UK immigration don't care if you have a baby coming through the door, if you are not registered for the NHS you will have to pay all your own medical costs.

A Finance visa does not entitle you to any NHS services and even if you get married you must leave the country after 6 months. Then you can apply for a settlement visa. If you get a settlement visa and go to live in the UK you are entitled to NHS services, but unless you get full UK citizenship within 2 years you will have to leave the country and all NHS services will be withdrawn.

Just being married to a UK citizen does not entitle you to any NHS services.

[Tony M]

I'm not trying to be alarmist, but your friend , and his girlfriend, should think about what happens if either the airline, or the immigration officer in UK, see, or suspect, that she is pregnant. Although it may well be true that she did not know this when the visa application was submitted, it is a change of circumstances since the visa was issued, and this could "invalidate" the visa. She could either be refused permission to fly, or refused entry to the UK.

She will be 4 or 5 months pregnant when she flies ? She might "show", but then again she might not.

This is totally incorrect, the airlines only care if you are pregnant and prevent flying at the very latest stages of pregnancy simply to ensure you don't have a baby mid-flight. Nothing to do with immigration.

UK immigration don't care if you have a baby coming through the door, if you are not registered for the NHS you will have to pay all your own medical costs.

A Finance visa does not entitle you to any NHS services and even if you get married you must leave the country after 6 months. Then you can apply for a settlement visa. If you get a settlement visa and go to live in the UK you are entitled to NHS services, but unless you get full UK citizenship within 2 years you will have to leave the country and all NHS services will be withdrawn.

Just being married to a UK citizen does not entitle you to any NHS services.

I hate to disagree with you, but I do disagree with you. I used to work with the airlines, assessing whether passengers were properly documented or not. On many occasions, we denied boarding to ladies who were pregnant, and who were attempting to travel to the UK to give birth. If they had not informed the ECO that they were pregnant at the time of application, or if the they became aware of the pregnancy after the visa was issued, then there was a possibility that the visa could be invalidated.

UK immigration do care if an arriving passenger is pregnant, especially if that passenger is a visa national who hasn't informed the ECO of that fact. I know that, as I use to work for UK immigration.

You do not have to leave the UK after 6 months if you have been issued with a fiancee visa, and get married in the UK. There is so much wrong with your post, that it constitutes poor advice,

[Top man]

Is the babies father British? If the baby is born in the UK it will have British citizenship. However if the baby is born in Thailand and the father is British it will have dual citizenship. A lot more convenient if your friend spends most of his time in Thailand with the Thai mother.

well said and very straightforward.

[brewsterbudgen]

Is the babies father British? If the baby is born in the UK it will have British citizenship. However if the baby is born in Thailand and the father is British it will have dual citizenship. A lot more convenient if your friend spends most of his time in Thailand with the Thai mother.

well said and very straightforward.

But surely a baby born to a Thai mother in the UK will also be entitled to dual citizenship?

[Paul Laycock]

When you apply for the birth certificate the baby will be registered as British. That's what happened in my circumstances.

[Top man]

Is the babies father British? If the baby is born in the UK it will have British citizenship. However if the baby is born in Thailand and the father is British it will have dual citizenship. A lot more convenient if your friend spends most of his time in Thailand with the Thai mother.

well said and very straightforward.

But surely a baby born to a Thai mother in the UK will also be entitled to dual citizenship?

as said before, the best way to have a child, is to be born in Thailand, and the father can register the child in the UK. Hence the child has no problems with the Thai side because he /she will have thai citizenship, and also be able to have a British passport. End of.

[Top man]

Mind you, in a few years time if the uk keeps going the way it is, who would want a British passport?

[brewsterbudgen]

Is the babies father British? If the baby is born in the UK it will have British citizenship. However if the baby is born in Thailand and the father is British it will have dual citizenship. A lot more convenient if your friend spends most of his time in Thailand with the Thai mother.

well said and very straightforward.

But surely a baby born to a Thai mother in the UK will also be entitled to dual citizenship?

as said before, the best way to have a child, is to be born in Thailand, and the father can register the child in the UK. Hence the child has no problems with the Thai side because he /she will have thai citizenship, and also be able to have a British passport. End of.

There's no need to register a birth in Thailand in order to have a British passport. As long as one parent is eligible to pass on their British citizenship, you can just apply for a passport. I got my 9 month old son (born in Thailand, mother from Laos) a UK passport very easily.

My query was why a baby born in the UK with a Thai parent would have difficulty getting dual nationality?

[7by7]

I am no expert on Thai nationality law, but as I understand it; if the mother is Thai then the child is Thai, no matter where it is born.

This is certainly the case with Thai/British couples we know who live in the UK and whose children were born here. Their children hold both Thai and British nationality and Thai and British passports.

I'm not sure if it's the same if the father is Thai but the mother isn't.

[Top man]

Is the babies father British? If the baby is born in the UK it will have British citizenship. However if the baby is born in Thailand and the father is British it will have dual citizenship. A lot more convenient if your friend spends most of his time in Thailand with the Thai mother.

well said and very straightforward.

But surely a baby born to a Thai mother in the UK will also be entitled to dual citizenship?

as said before, the best way to have a child, is to be born in Thailand, and the father can register the child in the UK. Hence the child has no problems with the Thai side because he /she will have thai citizenship, and also be able to have a British passport. End of.

There's no need to register a birth in Thailand in order to have a British passport. As long as one parent is eligible to pass on their British citizenship, you can just apply for a passport. I got my 9 month old son (born in Thailand, mother from Laos) a UK passport very easily.

My query was why a baby born in the UK with a Thai parent would have difficulty getting dual nationality?

The reason is, dual nationality is not the same anymore, if a child is born outside the kingdom, the child is alien. But the uk as we know will give British citizenship to a donkey.

[Top man]

Is the babies father British? If the baby is born in the UK it will have British citizenship. However if the baby is born in Thailand and the father is British it will have dual citizenship. A lot more convenient if your friend spends most of his time in Thailand with the Thai mother.

well said and very straightforward.

But surely a baby born to a Thai mother in the UK will also be entitled to dual citizenship?

as said before, the best way to have a child, is to be born in Thailand, and the father can register the child in the UK. Hence the child has no problems with the Thai side because he /she will have thai citizenship, and also be able to have a British passport. End of.

There's no need to register a birth in Thailand in order to have a British passport. As long as one parent is eligible to pass on their British citizenship, you can just apply for a passport. I got my 9 month old son (born in Thailand, mother from Laos) a UK passport very easily.

My query was why a baby born in the UK with a Thai parent would have difficulty getting dual nationality?

The reason is, dual nationality is not the same anymore, if a child is born outside the kingdom, the child is alien. But the uk as we know will give British citizenship to a donkey.

sorry brewter, but that's what I mean, you said you got your child's British passport easily, but Thailand is not the same, abd before I get shouted down, Thailand has it right,

[LukKrueng]

I'm not trying to be alarmist, but your friend , and his girlfriend, should think about what happens if either the airline, or the immigration officer in UK, see, or suspect, that she is pregnant. Although it may well be true that she did not know this when the visa application was submitted, it is a change of circumstances since the visa was issued, and this could "invalidate" the visa. She could either be refused permission to fly, or refused entry to the UK.

She will be 4 or 5 months pregnant when she flies ? She might "show", but then again she might not.

I don't remember ever seeing a pregnancy question on any visa form of any country. Pregnant women are allowed to travel - in early stages of pregnancy with no limits whatsoever, and in advanced stages (when it's showing big time) the airline will mostly ask for a physician's letter stating the pregnancy stage (which week) and that health wise there is no risk of flying, and will accept pregnant women up to about 7th month.

As for immigration officers - it's basically none of their concern. Some countries (like the USA) automatically grant full citizenship to anyone born within their borders, regardless of the parents' status in that country. Other countries (like Thailand) will not grant citizenship unless at least on of the parents is a Thai national.

The main issue is the costs of the delivery and other medical expenses that occur during pregnancy. As some already mentioned in this thread she will have to pay for her expenses, and that might be very expensive. The happy couple should check if they can get a travel insurance that covers pregnancy expenses, although I doubt it...

[Tony M]

I'm not trying to be alarmist, but your friend , and his girlfriend, should think about what happens if either the airline, or the immigration officer in UK, see, or suspect, that she is pregnant. Although it may well be true that she did not know this when the visa application was submitted, it is a change of circumstances since the visa was issued, and this could "invalidate" the visa. She could either be refused permission to fly, or refused entry to the UK.

She will be 4 or 5 months pregnant when she flies ? She might "show", but then again she might not.

I don't remember ever seeing a pregnancy question on any visa form of any country. Pregnant women are allowed to travel - in early stages of pregnancy with no limits whatsoever, and in advanced stages (when it's showing big time) the airline will mostly ask for a physician's letter stating the pregnancy stage (which week) and that health wise there is no risk of flying, and will accept pregnant women up to about 7th month.

As for immigration officers - it's basically none of their concern. Some countries (like the USA) automatically grant full citizenship to anyone born within their borders, regardless of the parents' status in that country. Other countries (like Thailand) will not grant citizenship unless at least on of the parents is a Thai national.

The main issue is the costs of the delivery and other medical expenses that occur during pregnancy. As some already mentioned in this thread she will have to pay for her expenses, and that might be very expensive. The happy couple should check if they can get a travel insurance that covers pregnancy expenses, although I doubt it...

Of course it's not an immigration officer's concern whether a passenger is pregnant or not. But is his concern if that passenger is coming to the UK to have medical treatment on the NHS, and has no intention of paying for it. That's why most, if not all, NHS Trusts now have a dedicated immigration officer available to them, either based in the hospital or available at the nearest immigration office.

Having babies in the UK, on the NHS, is big business, and has been for many years. A UK visit visa is valid for 6 months, and many women have gone to the UK in the earlier stages of pregnancy, purely in order to take advantage of the NHS, the 6 month visit giving them time to have the baby, even if they are not "showing" as obviously pregnant when they travel. I have assisted airlines in many such enquiries, where women have been denied boarding, and sent for a medical check before being allowed to travel (or not). There are lots of hits on Google on medical tourism in the UK. Not all to do with pregnant women, of course. For instance :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2351637/The-health-tourist-hit-runners-rip--24million-unpaid-NHS-bills-abuse-free-care-non-EU-patients-doubles-just-year.html

[Richard W]

I stand corrected; thank you.

It does seem that as a fiance visa is valid for 6 months that the surcharge is not payable until the FLR application after the marriage.

But I'm still not sure if this means the person is not entitled to NHS treatment until then; after all, they are in the UK for a settled purpose.

I'm not sure that anyone is entitled to NHS treatment; the best one can do in the way of enforcing rights is to get the treatment elsewhere and bill the NHS.

What does 'settled purpose' have to do with it? The test for treatment being as free as for most people is 'ordinary residence' with the statutory exclusions for 'NHS charging purposes', and on the usual route of fiancée to settled wife, one only gets officially 'free' treatment once one gets ILR. However, paying the IHS effectively makes treatment 'free'. I'm not sure how any of the rare EEA nationals on this route qualify for 'free' treatment; it seems that they do, and they are excluded from the IHS.

Lest anyone be panicking, note that long-term visas obtained and being obtained before IHS came in effectively come with free IHS.

[Richard W]

The reason is, dual nationality is not the same anymore, if a child is born outside the kingdom, the child is alien.

Do you have a link for this change in Thai nationality law?

[7by7]

Richard, entitled may not, strictly speaking, be the correct word; but I'm sure most know what I mean.

Being in the UK for a settled purpose has a lot to do with it.

From the guidance on ordinary residence

1. General guidance

1.1 ‘Ordinary residence’ has not been defined in any Act of Parliament. The leading case in this area is R -v- Barnet LBC ex parte Shah [1983] 1 All ER 226. The concept was held by the House of Lords to imply the following:
a. Ordinary residence is established if there is a regular habitual mode of life in a particular place "for the time being", "whether of short of short or long duration", the continuity of which has persisted apart from temporary or occasional absences. The only provisos are that the residence must be voluntary and adopted for "a settled purpose".

1.2 Although Shah was concerned with the meaning of ‘ordinary residence’ as used in the Education Acts, the decision is generally recognised as having wider application and should normally be followed when determining status or other matters under the immigration and nationality legislation.

5. When does a person become ordinarily resident?

5.1 A person may become ordinarily resident immediately on arrival, and probably will if entering the territory for settlement or one of the purposes leading to settlement.

Obvioulsy, a fiance visa is a purpose leading to settlement!

Therefore, based upon the above, a person in the UK with a fiance visa is classed as ordinarily resident and so entitled, or whatever word you prefer, to full use of the NHS.

Even though they wont pay the IHS surcharge until they apply for FLR after the marriage.

But if you can find anything from UKVI, the Dept. of Health or any other government source which says differently, then obviously I will be pleased to see it.

Edit:

By 'free' I obviously, or so I thought, meant the usual definition of free NHS treatment; i.e. free at the point of use; except where charges apply, e.g. prescriptions, dentistry. We all know the NHS is not free; we pay for it through our taxes, direct and indirect.

Edited April 16, 2016 by 7by7