SURVEY: Brexit, do you support it?

[allanos]

The scenario painted by Cumgranosalum (not too sure of the true Latin meaning of this name -

with a grain of ?? anguish, anxiety, concern) is the product of a tortured and devious mind -

akin to the paintings by Vincent van Gogh, perhaps; so tortured that he cut off his ear!

The portent suggested by an exit by the United Kingdom from the EU are as implausible, and

unlikely, as something I read this morning by an "In" campaigner, viz. that the world will

stop buying scotch whisky if Britain "secedes" from the EU. If it has a remote chance of

coming to pass, I will start buying shares in the Suntory distillery in Japan immediately.

As to Wales trying to go it alone - the Joke of the Forum today!

pity - if you'd had an education you'd be able to understand the stats or even the words? still waiting for a plausible counter argument.

I would not dignify your Kafka-esque, dystopian clairvoyance by calling it a reasoned argument, much less being worthy of a

counter-argument. And your childish jibe about my level of education, and I see it for the baiting it is, certainly does not add to your credibility or standing in this Forum.

[Thaiwine]

Roses are red

Violets are blue

I'm for Brexit

What about you

[SgtRock]

Roses are red

Violets are blue

I'm for Brexit

What about you

Brilliant.

[Jip99]

The vast majority of my friends will also vote to stay in. They would rather opt for short term inevitability than long-term aspiration. What they mean when they say “my heart says one thing, but my head says another” is that they don’t have the balls to follow their own logic, because they know voting to stay in is a poor option. Some of them have a notion that the European Union and its ill-conceived currency are going to collapse, but they don’t have the strength of their conviction to leave the building before it collapses.

The above paragraph is taken from an article in todays Telegraph. Worth a read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/10/i-think-were-having-the-wool-pulled-over-our-eyes-about-the-eu/

I would be inclined to ask those friends the question; " if the referendum was being held to vote on BECOMING a member of the EU, would you vote to join?".

If they cannot honestly answer "yes" then I would suggest that they should take a hard look at the reasons for wishing to stay in.

[Grouse]

Roses are red

Violets are blue

I'm for Brexit

What about you

Brilliant.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums up

nicely the level of Brexiteer erudition and wit.

[sandyf]

UK Manufacturers that are currently trading with the rest of the EU are complying with all EU legislation. Why would that suddenly change because the UK exits the EU ?" -

Because the EU can impose tariffs to protect industries within their borders. ...and UK would have to re-negotiate these deals from OUTSIDE the EU.

Same as the Chinese, who I believe do not have a trading agreement with the EU, but do manage to sell rather a large amount of different products.

You are quite right, the UK will have to do exactly the same as the Chinese and have their product tested inside the EU before it can be marked and sold within the EU.

Been in that situation before. Even after the EU directive on gas appliances came into effect in 1990, the Germans refused to accept any appliances that did not carry the DVGW mark. I had to take our product to the DVGW laboratories at Karlsruhe university for testing and certification.

[sandyf]

The vast majority of my friends will also vote to stay in. They would rather opt for short term inevitability than long-term aspiration. What they mean when they say “my heart says one thing, but my head says another” is that they don’t have the balls to follow their own logic, because they know voting to stay in is a poor option. Some of them have a notion that the European Union and its ill-conceived currency are going to collapse, but they don’t have the strength of their conviction to leave the building before it collapses.

The above paragraph is taken from an article in todays Telegraph. Worth a read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/10/i-think-were-having-the-wool-pulled-over-our-eyes-about-the-eu/

I would be inclined to ask those friends the question; " if the referendum was being held to vote on BECOMING a member of the EU, would you vote to join?".

If they cannot honestly answer "yes" then I would suggest that they should take a hard look at the reasons for wishing to stay in.

That is a distorted view on the situation.

Any current application would carry a mandatory commitment to the Euro, which would undoubtedly sway a NO vote.

The Euro is certainly a gamechanger and the Leave brigade try and imply that things could change in the future,that is taking things too far. The UK is not the only country in that position, the EU is never going to force the UK and Denmark out of the Union.

Sweden is under an obligation to adopt the Euro but has not as yet, be interesting to see how that one pans out.

[Grouse]

The Euro was a good idea but sadly the ramifications were not thought through. Gordon did well to keep us out. A common currency cannot work without much greater integration of economies and fiscal strategies. However, we're not discussing the Euro, we're discussing leaving the EU ?

[Grouse]

The vast majority of my friends will also vote to stay in. They would rather opt for short term inevitability than long-term aspiration. What they mean when they say my heart says one thing, but my head says another is that they dont have the balls to follow their own logic, because they know voting to stay in is a poor option. Some of them have a notion that the European Union and its ill-conceived currency are going to collapse, but they dont have the strength of their conviction to leave the building before it collapses.

The above paragraph is taken from an article in todays Telegraph. Worth a read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/10/i-think-were-having-the-wool-pulled-over-our-eyes-about-the-eu/

The demise of the serious broadsheet press is a serious problem. The Telegraph belongs in the bin next to The Guardian. This is why I rely upon The Economist and The FT for serious comment.

They still have proper newspapers in EU. I guess just another symptom of the dumbing down of the U.K.

[Jip99]

The vast majority of my friends will also vote to stay in. They would rather opt for short term inevitability than long-term aspiration. What they mean when they say “my heart says one thing, but my head says another” is that they don’t have the balls to follow their own logic, because they know voting to stay in is a poor option. Some of them have a notion that the European Union and its ill-conceived currency are going to collapse, but they don’t have the strength of their conviction to leave the building before it collapses.

The above paragraph is taken from an article in todays Telegraph. Worth a read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/10/i-think-were-having-the-wool-pulled-over-our-eyes-about-the-eu/

I would be inclined to ask those friends the question; " if the referendum was being held to vote on BECOMING a member of the EU, would you vote to join?".

If they cannot honestly answer "yes" then I would suggest that they should take a hard look at the reasons for wishing to stay in.

That is a distorted view on the situation.

Any current application would carry a mandatory commitment to the Euro, which would undoubtedly sway a NO vote.

The Euro is certainly a gamechanger and the Leave brigade try and imply that things could change in the future,that is taking things too far. The UK is not the only country in that position, the EU is never going to force the UK and Denmark out of the Union.

Sweden is under an obligation to adopt the Euro but has not as yet, be interesting to see how that one pans out.

Any view can be distorted to suit ones own views. The question is however a reasonable start point.

Remove the currency situation from the equation Sandy - would YOU join now ?

[Grouse]

Latest news is that ITV are going to field Farage against Cameron in a debate just before the referendum. Great stuff - I can't wait! IDS AND Boris are going bonkers. Don't see why. Farage, as bloke down the pub, is very representative of the Brexiteers!

[sandyf]

The vast majority of my friends will also vote to stay in. They would rather opt for short term inevitability than long-term aspiration. What they mean when they say “my heart says one thing, but my head says another” is that they don’t have the balls to follow their own logic, because they know voting to stay in is a poor option. Some of them have a notion that the European Union and its ill-conceived currency are going to collapse, but they don’t have the strength of their conviction to leave the building before it collapses.

The above paragraph is taken from an article in todays Telegraph. Worth a read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/10/i-think-were-having-the-wool-pulled-over-our-eyes-about-the-eu/

I would be inclined to ask those friends the question; " if the referendum was being held to vote on BECOMING a member of the EU, would you vote to join?".

If they cannot honestly answer "yes" then I would suggest that they should take a hard look at the reasons for wishing to stay in.

That is a distorted view on the situation.

Any current application would carry a mandatory commitment to the Euro, which would undoubtedly sway a NO vote.

The Euro is certainly a gamechanger and the Leave brigade try and imply that things could change in the future,that is taking things too far. The UK is not the only country in that position, the EU is never going to force the UK and Denmark out of the Union.

Sweden is under an obligation to adopt the Euro but has not as yet, be interesting to see how that one pans out.

Any view can be distorted to suit ones own views. The question is however a reasonable start point.

Remove the currency situation from the equation Sandy - would YOU join now ?

Yes I would, as I believe that had the UK government been left to do its own thing the UK would still have unequal opportunities, bad working conditions, poor health and safety, unsafe products, inadequate food information, secondary smoking etc etc etc.

I think most of the population would want to join as they would have seen how much further ahead the EU lifestyle had become.

[dick dasterdly]

I would be inclined to ask those friends the question; " if the referendum was being held to vote on BECOMING a member of the EU, would you vote to join?".

If they cannot honestly answer "yes" then I would suggest that they should take a hard look at the reasons for wishing to stay in.

That is a distorted view on the situation.

Any current application would carry a mandatory commitment to the Euro, which would undoubtedly sway a NO vote.

The Euro is certainly a gamechanger and the Leave brigade try and imply that things could change in the future,that is taking things too far. The UK is not the only country in that position, the EU is never going to force the UK and Denmark out of the Union.

Sweden is under an obligation to adopt the Euro but has not as yet, be interesting to see how that one pans out.

Any view can be distorted to suit ones own views. The question is however a reasonable start point.

Remove the currency situation from the equation Sandy - would YOU join now ?

Yes I would, as I believe that had the UK government been left to do its own thing the UK would still have unequal opportunities, bad working conditions, poor health and safety, unsafe products, inadequate food information, secondary smoking etc etc etc.

I think most of the population would want to join as they would have seen how much further ahead the EU lifestyle had become.

I agree with your comment about working conditions being a strong positive in favour of the EU. But we have also seen the corruption and cost of the EU.

Butter mountains and wine lakes etc. (increasing the cost for consumers) were, sadly, just the start of escalating EU costs. The disaster that befell Greece and other EU problems are also well known.

If the UK hadn't joined, and was now holding a referendum on whether we should become part of the EU - I have no doubt that the answer would be a resounding 'NO!'. But we did become part of the EU, and leaving is a more complicated issue.

[sandyf]

Any view can be distorted to suit ones own views. The question is however a reasonable start point.

Remove the currency situation from the equation Sandy - would YOU join now ?

Yes I would, as I believe that had the UK government been left to do its own thing the UK would still have unequal opportunities, bad working conditions, poor health and safety, unsafe products, inadequate food information, secondary smoking etc etc etc.

I think most of the population would want to join as they would have seen how much further ahead the EU lifestyle had become.

I agree with your comment about working conditions being a strong positive in favour of the EU. But we have also seen the corruption and cost of the EU.

Butter mountains and wine lakes etc. (increasing the cost for consumers) were, sadly, just the start of escalating EU costs. The disaster that befell Greece and other EU problems are also well known.

If the UK hadn't joined, and was now holding a referendum on whether we should become part of the EU - I have no doubt that the answer would be a resounding 'NO!'. But we did become part of the EU, and leaving is a more complicated issue.

I believe that Jip99 asked if I would join, or have I got that wrong.

[SgtRock]

Some of you will recall that the last immigration figures released by the ONS were returned and a review was ordered to be carried out due to the discrepancy in figures and NINO's issued.

The most recent ONS figures suggest that 257,000 EU migrants migrated to the UK between September 2014 and September 2015.

But other figures for the same period show 630,000 National Insurance numbers were allocated to EU nationals, up 7% on the year before. Of these, 209,000 were from Bulgaria and Romania.

Apparently this is the reason.

An analysis by the Office for National Statistics suggests large numbers of people have come to the UK for a short period of time in recent years.

Both the Government and the ONS reckon that NINO's issued is not a good way of measuring immigration and that this is the best way.

They say the International Passenger Survey, a questionnaire given to people at random as they arrive at air and sea ports, remains the best way of estimating immigration.

And finally

There has been a sizeable gap between the passenger survey estimates and the National Insurance figures since 2006, according to the ONS analysis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36271390

Now remember, this has been going on for years. More proof, if any were needed that the UK Government does not have a clue what the real population of the UK is.

Time to take back control.

[nontabury]

Latest news is that ITV are going to field Farage against Cameron in a debate just before the referendum. Great stuff - I can't wait! IDS AND Boris are going bonkers. Don't see why. Farage, as bloke down the pub, is very representative of the Brexiteers!

Nigel Farage is possibly the most knowledgable Brit on the workings of the EU. Maybe he will bring these points to the attention of the British public whether they be in the pub or with Grouse in the cocktail bar.

[Sunderland]

+1

-1

×2

Thatcher out!!

[allanos]

Some excellent statistical postings by Sgt Rock and Nontabury.

Much food for thought here.

As to getting a handle on the Immigration figures, one would assume, also,

that National Census figures are also a work of fiction. Illegal immigrants,

almost by definition, would not show up in a Census.

[Grouse]

Some of you will recall that the last immigration figures released by the ONS were returned and a review was ordered to be carried out due to the discrepancy in figures and NINO's issued.

The most recent ONS figures suggest that 257,000 EU migrants migrated to the UK between September 2014 and September 2015.

But other figures for the same period show 630,000 National Insurance numbers were allocated to EU nationals, up 7% on the year before. Of these, 209,000 were from Bulgaria and Romania.

Apparently this is the reason.

An analysis by the Office for National Statistics suggests large numbers of people have come to the UK for a short period of time in recent years.

Both the Government and the ONS reckon that NINO's issued is not a good way of measuring immigration and that this is the best way.

They say the International Passenger Survey, a questionnaire given to people at random as they arrive at air and sea ports, remains the best way of estimating immigration.

And finally

There has been a sizeable gap between the passenger survey estimates and the National Insurance figures since 2006, according to the ONS analysis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36271390

Now remember, this has been going on for years. More proof, if any were needed that the UK Government does not have a clue what the real population of the UK is.

Time to take back control.

Clearly we need to monitor those crossing our borders, in and out.

Never understood why, in these days of biometrics and machine readable passports that this is not done 100%

However, after acknowledging that, please explain why we should leave the EU?

You see, there are loads of issues which can be sorted out. None changes the fact that we're better in than out.

[SgtRock]

Some excellent statistical postings by Sgt Rock and Nontabury.

Much food for thought here.

As to getting a handle on the Immigration figures, one would assume, also,

that National Census figures are also a work of fiction. Illegal immigrants,

almost by definition, would not show up in a Census.

Of course it is a work of fiction.

There is a legal limit on occupants and council tax reductions for single occupancy. Not to mention illegals and foreign criminals etc.

[nontabury]

Some of you will recall that the last immigration figures released by the ONS were returned and a review was ordered to be carried out due to the discrepancy in figures and NINO's issued.

The most recent ONS figures suggest that 257,000 EU migrants migrated to the UK between September 2014 and September 2015.

But other figures for the same period show 630,000 National Insurance numbers were allocated to EU nationals, up 7% on the year before. Of these, 209,000 were from Bulgaria and Romania.

Apparently this is the reason.

An analysis by the Office for National Statistics suggests large numbers of people have come to the UK for a short period of time in recent years.

Both the Government and the ONS reckon that NINO's issued is not a good way of measuring immigration and that this is the best way.

They say the International Passenger Survey, a questionnaire given to people at random as they arrive at air and sea ports, remains the best way of estimating immigration.

And finally

There has been a sizeable gap between the passenger survey estimates and the National Insurance figures since 2006, according to the ONS analysis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36271390

Now remember, this has been going on for years. More proof, if any were needed that the UK Government does not have a clue what the real population of the UK is.

Time to take back control.

Clearly we need to monitor those crossing our borders, in and out.

Never understood why, in these days of biometrics and machine readable passports that this is not done 100%

However, after acknowledging that, please explain why we should leave the EU?

You see, there are loads of issues which can be sorted out. None changes the fact that we're better in than out.

This is great,you are finally understanding part of the problem,that is the inefficiency of the EU and the British politicians. We can at least hold the British politicians to account,unfortunately that is not the case with the Bureacrats in Brussel, they cannot be sorted out, that is one of many reasons we are far better out of this undemocratic shambels.

[Thaiwine]

Roses are red

Violets are blue

I'm for Brexit

What about you

Brilliant.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums up

nicely the level of Brexiteer erudition and wit.

The thing is old chap, it really doesn’t matter whether you are Erudite, Hittite or Marmite when it comes to v day those eligible get one vote,

It’s not about the purported quality of the votes but the number of votes that will decide the outcome.

[Grouse]

And to reiterate, that is what is so dangerous.

We could be dragged the wrong way by a bunch of ill informed fools.

[Jip99]

Any view can be distorted to suit ones own views. The question is however a reasonable start point.

Remove the currency situation from the equation Sandy - would YOU join now ?

Yes I would, as I believe that had the UK government been left to do its own thing the UK would still have unequal opportunities, bad working conditions, poor health and safety, unsafe products, inadequate food information, secondary smoking etc etc etc.

I think most of the population would want to join as they would have seen how much further ahead the EU lifestyle had become.

I agree with your comment about working conditions being a strong positive in favour of the EU. But we have also seen the corruption and cost of the EU.

Butter mountains and wine lakes etc. (increasing the cost for consumers) were, sadly, just the start of escalating EU costs. The disaster that befell Greece and other EU problems are also well known.

If the UK hadn't joined, and was now holding a referendum on whether we should become part of the EU - I have no doubt that the answer would be a resounding 'NO!'. But we did become part of the EU, and leaving is a more complicated issue.

I believe that Jip99 asked if I would join, or have I got that wrong.

Thank you for answering the question.

My view differs - I would certainly have voted to join the 9 member state in 1973 based on the information available. From what I see now I would not wish to be part of the current structure of EU - for example, freedom of movement of people could not have envisaged the enlarged EU or the economic migration created by the inclusion of 'poorer' countries.

I cannot dispute your assertions about working conditions etc as no one actually knows what would have happened had we not been 'in'. I would certainly dispute the secondary smoking comment where it is far worse on other European countries. That does not matter because I am not saying that the EEC was a bad thing (I was pro-Europe in the early days and for most of my working life) - many good things came out of membership. My issue is the monster that the EU has become and would argue that a significant majority would NOT join now.

My instinct is that (subject to the UK having politicians with the balls to manage through some choppy waters..... ??) it is time for Britain to take control of its own affairs.

Will the EU collapse if we leave? I imagine that BREXIT would certainly accelerate the likelihood of that happening.

[nontabury]

And to reiterate, that is what is so dangerous.

We could be dragged the wrong way by a bunch of ill informed fools.

I believe that you worked in Germany for many years. Maybe you picked up the taints of the 1930's Germany, namely arrogance. What would your quick-fix be for those undesirably people who do not agree with your point of view and wish to leave the EU? Perhaps send them to a state holiday camp as the final solution.

Edited May 13, 2016 by nontabury

[cumgranosalum]

And to reiterate, that is what is so dangerous.

We could be dragged the wrong way by a bunch of ill informed fools.

I believe that you worked in Germany for many years. Maybe you picked up the taints of the 1930's Germany, namely arrogance. What would your quick-fix be for those undesirably people who do not agree with your point of view and wish to leave the EU? Perhaps send them to a state holiday camp as the final solution.

kind of sums up the sort of thinking of most Brexiteers, why bother with reality when you can resort to pure ignorance and xenophobia?

[Grouse]

And to reiterate, that is what is so dangerous.

We could be dragged the wrong way by a bunch of ill informed fools.

I believe that you worked in Germany for many years. Maybe you picked up the taints of the 1930's Germany, namely arrogance. What would your quick-fix be for those undesirably people who do not agree with your point of view and wish to leave the EU? Perhaps send them to a state holiday camp as the final solution.

I forgive you for that

The point that I am trying to make is that this is a non trivial, complex issue. It aggravates me that so many shoot from the hip without reading the history and really understanding the situation

As far as Germany in the '30s is concerned, do you understand Hitler's rise? You think it was arrogance on behalf of the German people generally?

Keep reading.....

My quick fix would be information

To even bring up concentration camps in this context is distasteful in the extreme. You should withdraw the comment

[Grouse]

And to reiterate, that is what is so dangerous.

We could be dragged the wrong way by a bunch of ill informed fools.

I believe that you worked in Germany for many years. Maybe you picked up the taints of the 1930's Germany, namely arrogance. What would your quick-fix be for those undesirably people who do not agree with your point of view and wish to leave the EU? Perhaps send them to a state holiday camp as the final solution.

I forgive you for that

The point that I am trying to make is that this is a non trivial, complex issue. It aggravates me that so many shoot from the hip without reading the history and really understanding the situation

As far as Germany in the '30s is concerned, do you understand Hitler's rise? You think it was arrogance on behalf of the German people generally?

Keep reading.....

My quick fix would be information

To even bring up concentration camps in this context is distasteful in the extreme. You should withdraw the comment

[Felipesed]

Where is the source of accurate, unbiased information?

Certainly not from the EU Propaganda Office, and by extrapolation, the UK Government.

How about from the EU auditors?

No Juncker would not like that!

How about examining how much each country pays in, and compare that figure to what they receive?

How about looking at how many Directives have to be enshrined in UK law without any consent from MPs or the population?

That is without looking at hospital waiting lists, housing shortages, prison population, state benefits paid to Non-UK citizens.

Yes it would be interesting to have accurate figures for the EU membership cost, but this government would certainly not publicize them!

[SgtRock]

Where is the source of accurate, unbiased information?

Certainly not from the EU Propaganda Office, and by extrapolation, the UK Government.

How about from the EU auditors?

No Juncker would not like that!

How about examining how much each country pays in, and compare that figure to what they receive?

How about looking at how many Directives have to be enshrined in UK law without any consent from MPs or the population?

That is without looking at hospital waiting lists, housing shortages, prison population, state benefits paid to Non-UK citizens.

Yes it would be interesting to have accurate figures for the EU membership cost, but this government would certainly not publicize them!

If you care to look throughout this thread.

The 2 most vocal trolls heights of intelligence have provided more than 25% of the posts with less that 10 external links to supporting information. Not that any of it is unbiased or accurate, rather pro - remain claptrap.

If you get bored, check it out.