Sleeping problems / Lethargy - any tips or natural alternative for Melatonin?

[SS1]

I'm a healthy guy in my mid 20's but experiencing quite bad sleeping problems since moving to Thailand. I eat extremely healthy, work out at the gym 4-5 times a week, don't smoke and rarely drink alcohol. I go to bed at around 10pm most nights but have some serious trouble falling asleep - it often takes me until 1am and then I wake up the next day around 8:30 feeling lethargic. This completely ruins my productivity for the day. Also from the last doctors' checkups everything is perfectly fine.

I've been drinking coffee every day since the last 7 years so I don't think this is the problem. I know my body is OK in this sense as long as I have my last one before 4pm.

I discovered Melatonin a while ago which has been a great help for falling asleep. I would take 3mg (Schiff Melatonin Ultra) around 1 hour before bed and I fall asleep very quickly. However, after using it for months I noticed that I feel like crap during the day.. sleepy and irritated, again not getting enough work done. It still works great for falling asleep though and getting a good 8-9 hours of sleep. I read that you are not supposed to take it for more than 2 weeks and the above are normal side effects.

Now I stopped using the melatonin and have serious trouble falling asleep again. Any advice? Are there some other natural alternatives to help me fall asleep?

[Rob13]

Lay off the booze and pills, including 'health supplements', reduce caffeine intake, get regular exercise daily, put yourself on a daily schedule of rising and going to bed, and eat balanced meals, would be a good starting point.

[thai3]

Copious amounts of Ya dong, or if you must lay off the booze Atarax available everywhere

Edited April 22, 2016 by thai3

[SS1]

Lay off the booze and pills, including 'health supplements', reduce caffeine intake, get regular exercise daily, put yourself on a daily schedule of rising and going to bed, and eat balanced meals, would be a good starting point.

Copious amounts of Ya dong, or if you must lay off the booze Atarax available everywhere

Thanks guys but did you read the original post

I rarely drink any alcohol, maybe once a month. I exercise 4-5 times a week and eat extremely healthy; my meals consist of lean meats, brown/black rice, fresh vegetables and fruit. I always go to bed at 10-10:30 pm and wake up around 8 am.

[Rob13]

always go to bed at 10-10:30 pm and wake up around 8 am.

No problem here, carry on.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Rob13

[DrNicha]

Insomnia can be caused by so many factors eg. sleep hygienes, environment, anxiety, stimulant intakes, pain/discomfort, hypoglycemia, and some medications and health conditions.

Sleep Hygienes

• Go to bed only when sleepy, and don’t push yourself to stay up past that sign of sleepiness.
• Avoid day-time napping.
• Only use bed for sleep (no reading, watching tv, iPad, ..except sex) to eliminate wakeful associations.
• Avoid iPhone, iPad, TV before bed, the blue light tends to suppress melatonin level.
• Your sleep environment should be dark, quiet, cool, and comfortable.
• Expose to sunlight early in the morning and late in the afternoon to encourage a strong circadian rhythm. (Melatonin is suppressed in light ad secreted in darkness)

Exercise

• Exercise regularly is good! but avoid exercise late in the evening.

Foods/Drinks

• Things that interferes sleep include coffee, caffeine (black tea, green tea, coke), alcohol, sweet and sugary stuffs.
• Move your last cup of coffee to before noon.
• Stabilize your blood sugar with a small amount of protein that is high in tryptophan eg. nuts, eggs, turkey, fish, dairy (if you are not dairy-free) before bedtime.

Anxiety

• Anxiety and tension put your body in sympathetic mode (fight or flight) which does not promote sleep.
• Try some relaxation techniques or meditation before bedtime.
• Try herbal tea that has a calming effect on your nervous system (chamomile, lemon balm, hops, catnip, lavender, passionflower, kava)

If you think you have tried everything and you still experience severe insomnia, I would suggest you to see a health care provider to have a comprehensive evaluation of your issue.

I hope you find some recommendations above to be helpful

Dr. Nicha

Edited April 22, 2016 by Sheryl
website link removed by Moderator

[manfredtillmann]

...since moving to thailand.

does that not answer your own question?

what has changed in your life since you got here? unchange it -or live with it.

[muskoka]

My sleeping habits have improved substantially since I:

- quit drinking coffee in the afternoon, only drink coffee later if I have to stay up later than normal. Before I was waking up around 3-4am (go to bed around 10-11PM) but that mostly no longer happens

- I take 1/2 of a 1mg Ativan tablet a couple hours before bed and one 3mg tablet of Melatonin (Thorne Melatonin-3) one hour before bed.

I do have a couple scotch in the evening and one or two cans of beer.

Thinking that your problem may be drinking too much coffee later in the day.

Big age difference tho, I am 68yo and healthy.

Doug

[jak2002003]

You say you fall to sleep at 1am and weak up at 8.30.... that's 7 and half hours sleep.. that's plenty!

You need to change your schedule if you want to sleep at a different time.

Get up at 5.00 am every moring for a week.. and you will soon be able to sleep earlier in the evening.

[fstarbkk]

Metabolic changes, at different stages of life, can affect sensitivity to caffeine. I experienced this in my mid-30's.

After drinking lots of coffee every day with zero problems, I suddenly started feeling jittery after a few cups and had persistent sleeping problems. My assistant at the time suggested I limit myself to 2 cups a day and don't drink any coffee after 2PM. I tried that for a few days and voila! Problem solved.

As Dr. Nicha points out, there are many possible causes for insomnia. But this is an easy one to start with.

[Myran]

If you are using computers/mobile phones in the evening, I would suggest downloading the F.lux software. In changes the hue of your screen in the evening in order to make you sleep better. It has to do with the bluish light emitted by these screens sending signals to your body that it's daytime (or something along those lines). Try it out; it has really worked wonders for me and I now fall asleep much easier.

[Rob13]

downloading the F.lux software

Just did

[SS1]

You say you fall to sleep at 1am and weak up at 8.30.... that's 7 and half hours sleep.. that's plenty!

You need to change your schedule if you want to sleep at a different time.

Get up at 5.00 am every moring for a week.. and you will soon be able to sleep earlier in the evening.

Metabolic changes, at different stages of life, can affect sensitivity to caffeine. I experienced this in my mid-30's.

After drinking lots of coffee every day with zero problems, I suddenly started feeling jittery after a few cups and had persistent sleeping problems. My assistant at the time suggested I limit myself to 2 cups a day and don't drink any coffee after 2PM. I tried that for a few days and voila! Problem solved.

As Dr. Nicha points out, there are many possible causes for insomnia. But this is an easy one to start with.

If you are using computers/mobile phones in the evening, I would suggest downloading the F.lux software. In changes the hue of your screen in the evening in order to make you sleep better. It has to do with the bluish light emitted by these screens sending signals to your body that it's daytime (or something along those lines). Try it out; it has really worked wonders for me and I now fall asleep much easier.

Thanks guys some good tips here I didn't even think about. I do need at least 8 hours of sleep because of my heavy workouts though, less than that I won't feel great the next day. 9 hours is optimal.

Downloaded the software, nice! Also just realised my desk light has a high-wattage blueish/white daylight lamp, gotta start keeping that one off in the evenings. I'll also try to not drink coffee after noon tomorrow.

[Marcel1]

You spend too much time in bed it is crazy... normal that your body doesn't wanna sleep. Go to bed later or wake up more early. Everone needs different amounts of sleep but I really believe that too much like yours gets indeed the effect you mention.

I sleep normally 6-7 hours. Sometimes less or a bit more when I work out daily. But whenever I come over the 8 hours my whole mood is messed up and brain gets foggy.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Marcel1

[SS1]

You spend too much time in bed it is crazy... normal that your body doesn't wanna sleep. Go to bed later or wake up more early. Everone needs different amounts of sleep but I really believe that too much like yours gets indeed the effect you mention.

I sleep normally 6-7 hours. Sometimes less or a bit more when I work out daily. But whenever I come over the 8 hours my whole mood is messed up and brain gets foggy.

I think it really varies between individuals, for me with 6-7 hours I feel very bad the next day, especially if it's after a very heavy workout. After a day off from the gym, I can do with a little less sleep though. 8-10 hours is recommended for bodybuilders, but I agree that oversleeping can be bad too. For me the optimal is between 8-9 hours I think. I normally use the Sleep Cycle Alarm on my phone, that measures your sleeping cycles and tries to wake you up when you are at the end of a 90min cycle so almost awake. I think it's a great app!

[Sheryl]

People differ in their sleep requirements. I too need 9 hours, if only 8, let alone 7, I feel terrible and easily get sick. Other people need only 6-8 hours, a few people even less.

I agree with the advice to stop all caffeine by noon, and avoid computer screen/LCD lights etc for at least several hours before going to bed.

You might also find a good eye mask and ear plugs helpful - there may be ambient noises etc that you are not aware of that disturb your sleep here in Thailand which you did not have back home.

[inbangkok]

If you are as healthy as you say, and work out as hard as you claim, there would be very little reason you would need 9 hours of sleep per night..... Especially given your age. If anything, heavy workouts should give you more energy and allow you to function with less sleep.

I would highly suggest getting your testosterone checked. Dr's rarely check testosterone levels on general check ups/physicals (especially at your age). If you have low T, which is rare but not unheard of for your age, this can cause the symptoms you are describing.

[2fishin2]

I have been going to sleep at 9/10 pm until 6am since I can ever remember, Im 54. Two suggestions, dont drink coffee after noon and sleep with a fan on for the "white noise". I also found that melatonin did help me fall asleep, i would wake up middle of night too. How long have you been here now?

[SS1]

If you are as healthy as you say, and work out as hard as you claim, there would be very little reason you would need 9 hours of sleep per night..... Especially given your age. If anything, heavy workouts should give you more energy and allow you to function with less sleep.

I would highly suggest getting your testosterone checked. Dr's rarely check testosterone levels on general check ups/physicals (especially at your age). If you have low T, which is rare but not unheard of for your age, this can cause the symptoms you are describing.

This is actually a very good point; nowadays more and more (and younger and younger) men seem to suffer from this problem. General doctors rarely think of it as a possible issue and many cases they go undiagnosed. In my home country doctors prescribe depression meds for young men with these symptoms and don't believe one could have low testosterone levels at such a young age. Once they realise it many years after and get on TRT, they have a huge change in the quality of life and wellbeing.

However it's not the case for me. I have actually very good knowledge of the subject and I've been on TRT since I was 18. My levels are always at the higher end of the normal recommended values. Everything is being checked yearly and everything OK - although of course it could also be the high testosterone levels causing sleeping problems.

Low testosterone levels do cause exactly similar symptoms indeed; unexplained lethargy during the day, general sluggishness and increased need of sleep.

[inbangkok]

If you are as healthy as you say, and work out as hard as you claim, there would be very little reason you would need 9 hours of sleep per night..... Especially given your age. If anything, heavy workouts should give you more energy and allow you to function with less sleep.

I would highly suggest getting your testosterone checked. Dr's rarely check testosterone levels on general check ups/physicals (especially at your age). If you have low T, which is rare but not unheard of for your age, this can cause the symptoms you are describing.

This is actually a very good point; nowadays more and more (and younger and younger) men seem to suffer from this problem. General doctors rarely think of it as a possible issue and many cases they go undiagnosed. In my home country doctors prescribe depression meds for young men with these symptoms and don't believe one could have low testosterone levels at such a young age. Once they realise it many years after and get on TRT, they have a huge change in the quality of life and wellbeing.

However it's not the case for me. I have actually very good knowledge of the subject and I've been on TRT since I was 18. My levels are always at the higher end of the normal recommended values. Everything is being checked yearly and everything OK - although of course it could also be the high testosterone levels causing sleeping problems.

Low testosterone levels do cause exactly similar symptoms indeed; unexplained lethargy during the day, general sluggishness and increased need of sleep.

TRT since 18? Wow! I was diagnosed around 29 and that is considered young. Have you by chance switched anything with your TRT protocol since moving to Thailand? Like changing testosterone brands? Are you using any other steroids along with the testosterone? Certain steroids are known to destroy peoples sleep patterns (but should be temporary). And as you may know, certain steroids can actually make people feel quite shitty and lethargic while using them.

[blackcab]

The only problem you have is that you go to bed 3 hours too early. Then you complain about lack of productivity.

Work until 1am then go to bed. Easy.

[Utley]

In Thailand's climate, you may simply be dehydrated. Lay off the diuretics (like caffeine) and start drinking more water. That worked for a friend of mine who had similar symptoms as yours.

[AsiaCheese]

Lay off the booze and pills, including 'health supplements', reduce caffeine intake, get regular exercise daily, put yourself on a daily schedule of rising and going to bed, and eat balanced meals, would be a good starting point.

Copious amounts of Ya dong, or if you must lay off the booze Atarax available everywhere

Thanks guys but did you read the original post

I rarely drink any alcohol, maybe once a month. I exercise 4-5 times a week and eat extremely healthy; my meals consist of lean meats, brown/black rice, fresh vegetables and fruit. I always go to bed at 10-10:30 pm and wake up around 8 am.

That's the problem with yellow press readers - they don't go beyond the fat headline and the big picture. And they (almost rightly) assume that everyone on TV is a heavy drinker...

I can count the days on one hand when I'm below 5 cups of (strong) coffee a day. My cut-off time used to be 8 o'clock evening, but it's gradually moving backwards as I'm getting older. Tea and Coke are in the same category - do you drink any of that? It might be an idea to go caffeine-free for a while and see if that makes a difference.

One culprit could be the blue-ish light emanating from LCDs. There's been quite a few scientific studies into that, and they recommend not clutching a mobile until the last second before trying to go to sleep. Apple in their newest OSX update offer a setting that turns the screen less blue-ish after a certain time in the evening - one could assume that there's something to the blue light claims.

Melatonin qualifies as a dietary supplement in the US and is sold over the counter. There was a time when there were more spam emails trying to push the wonder drug than for various ...agra. In sharp contrast to sleeping pills, it seems that it can be taken over prolonged periods of time without adverse effects. There's an article here: https://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-topics/melatonin-and-sleep

I would strongly recommend not going "chemical", but maybe trying to wind down your day earlier, or aiming at a later go-to-sleep time. It's often the head that's too busy being busy which stands in the way. No wonder the US pharma industry turns over around 5 billion US$ a year with sleeping pills alone (the little things that get you hooked, and become ineffective without raising the dosage within a fairly short time...)

[straylight]

Sit in meditation for an hour before going to sleep. Doing the same in the morning will help your day.

[ghworker2010]

I too have sleeping issues. Recently I had to play a game of soccer at 7pm one night. I lasted 10min of running around making a fool of myself before being taken off and replaced by a sub. I was exhausted and unfit and totally drained by 10min or intense running on the field. That night Ive never had a better nights sleep. I must have slept 9 hours and havent done that for a long time. Try going to the gym to do aerobic exercise in the early evening or go for a run and wear yourself out. Your brain is too active and needs to be worn out. It works....

[verito]

Hi,

1.Avoid caffeine;

2.Do your workouts at morning time;

3.Melatonin is natural hormone,it's not dangerous.It even is used to cure some other problems,not only sleep problems.

Sometimes melatonin can be used 40 mg,look Lifeextension.org.

Good sleep to you...

[verito]

P.S.

Try meditation or other relaxation techniques.

[ChoakMyDee]

Melatonin did nothing for me. I took it every night for a month with absolutely no effect. The only thing that helps me get drowsy is Atarax, unless I want to take Valium or Xanax which I don't want to take because they are addictive if you take them for more than a couple weeks.

[WitawatWatawit]

Melatonin did nothing for me. I took it every night for a month with absolutely no effect. The only thing that helps me get drowsy is Atarax, unless I want to take Valium or Xanax which I don't want to take because they are addictive if you take them for more than a couple weeks.

Just a minor correction ... they are not addictive ... your body develops a dependency on them. Taken every day, that dependency can develop in just a few weeks, and weaning off can take a year or more of sheer hell.

[ChoakMyDee]

Melatonin did nothing for me. I took it every night for a month with absolutely no effect. The only thing that helps me get drowsy is Atarax, unless I want to take Valium or Xanax which I don't want to take because they are addictive if you take them for more than a couple weeks.

Just a minor correction ... they are not addictive ... your body develops a dependency on them. Taken every day, that dependency can develop in just a few weeks, and weaning off can take a year or more of sheer hell.

Isn't that what an addictiion is, a "dependancy". Seems to me you're just playing semantics.