Obama says North Carolina law should be overturned

[stillbornagain]

To all those who agree with this law... I don't think you understand what it really means for the minority groups its harming...

The law will allow local governments to actively discriminate against gay and transgendered people... with no protection for these people and no rights.

It will allow businesses to be able to refuse to serve people just because of their sexual orientation. It will allow emergency services to refuse to help gay or Trans peple.

The restroom thing is just part of the implications...... It is more dangerous to force transgendered people into men's restrooms. Think how dangerous that will be for a transgendered women... and how she will feel.... Men will think she is a women in the wrong bathroom... or she would be 'outed' as a transgendered woman. There is a real risk of harassment and violence from straight men in the bathroom.... and there is no protection for her.

There is quite a bit in your post that I am unable to find in the actual law itself.

Here is a link to a PDF file of the law: http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v0.pdf

Perhaps you can point out where the law actually permits the following acts you describe as now being legal.

"It will allow businesses to be able to refuse to serve people just because of their sexual orientation. It will allow emergency services to refuse to help gay or Trans peple. (sic)"

I'll give you a hint. It's not what the new law says. It's what it doesn't say Go to: § 143-422.11Legislative declaration

[chuckd]

To all those who agree with this law... I don't think you understand what it really means for the minority groups its harming...

The law will allow local governments to actively discriminate against gay and transgendered people... with no protection for these people and no rights.

It will allow businesses to be able to refuse to serve people just because of their sexual orientation. It will allow emergency services to refuse to help gay or Trans peple.

The restroom thing is just part of the implications...... It is more dangerous to force transgendered people into men's restrooms. Think how dangerous that will be for a transgendered women... and how she will feel.... Men will think she is a women in the wrong bathroom... or she would be 'outed' as a transgendered woman. There is a real risk of harassment and violence from straight men in the bathroom.... and there is no protection for her.

There is quite a bit in your post that I am unable to find in the actual law itself.

Here is a link to a PDF file of the law: http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v0.pdf

Perhaps you can point out where the law actually permits the following acts you describe as now being legal.

"It will allow businesses to be able to refuse to serve people just because of their sexual orientation. It will allow emergency services to refuse to help gay or Trans peple. (sic)"

I'll give you a hint. It's not what the new law says. It's what it doesn't say Go to: § 143-422.11Legislative declaration

OK, I give up. What doesn't it say?

Now it's late so I will continue tomorrow if I feel like wasting some more time on a law that will never have any personal impact on my life.

Some of you Europeans and Aussies might consider doing the same.

[stillbornagain]

To all those who agree with this law... I don't think you understand what it really means for the minority groups its harming...

The law will allow local governments to actively discriminate against gay and transgendered people... with no protection for these people and no rights.

It will allow businesses to be able to refuse to serve people just because of their sexual orientation. It will allow emergency services to refuse to help gay or Trans peple.

The restroom thing is just part of the implications...... It is more dangerous to force transgendered people into men's restrooms. Think how dangerous that will be for a transgendered women... and how she will feel.... Men will think she is a women in the wrong bathroom... or she would be 'outed' as a transgendered woman. There is a real risk of harassment and violence from straight men in the bathroom.... and there is no protection for her.

There is quite a bit in your post that I am unable to find in the actual law itself.

Here is a link to a PDF file of the law: http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v0.pdf

Perhaps you can point out where the law actually permits the following acts you describe as now being legal.

"It will allow businesses to be able to refuse to serve people just because of their sexual orientation. It will allow emergency services to refuse to help gay or Trans peple. (sic)"

I'll give you a hint. It's not what the new law says. It's what it doesn't say Go to: § 143-422.11Legislative declaration

OK, I give up. What doesn't it say?

Now it's late so I will continue tomorrow if I feel like wasting some more time on a law that will never have any personal impact on my life.

Some of you Europeans and Aussies might consider doing the same.

Simple. It forbids discrimination based on race, color, religion, national origin, or biological sex. It says nothing about sexual orientation. In other words, if you are denied service at a public accommodation because you're gay. there's nothing you can do about it. It goes on to say that only the state government can pass laws on this issue. So much for conservative believe in small government.

[Jingthing]

Yes, in other words it instantly nullifies ALL EXISTING local anti-GLBT general anti-discrimination laws (focus for a second -- go beyond cakes and toilets if y'all can manage it) and makes it illegal to pass any NEW ones.

Yes, Virginia, this is JIM CROW all over again but this time against GLBT people rather than blacks.

[lostboy]

To all those who agree with this law... I don't think you understand what it really means for the minority groups its harming...

The law will allow local governments to actively discriminate against gay and transgendered people... with no protection for these people and no rights.

It will allow businesses to be able to refuse to serve people just because of their sexual orientation. It will allow emergency services to refuse to help gay or Trans peple.

The restroom thing is just part of the implications...... It is more dangerous to force transgendered people into men's restrooms. Think how dangerous that will be for a transgendered women... and how she will feel.... Men will think she is a women in the wrong bathroom... or she would be 'outed' as a transgendered woman. There is a real risk of harassment and violence from straight men in the bathroom.... and there is no protection for her.

There is quite a bit in your post that I am unable to find in the actual law itself.

Here is a link to a PDF file of the law: http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v0.pdf

Perhaps you can point out where the law actually permits the following acts you describe as now being legal.

"It will allow businesses to be able to refuse to serve people just because of their sexual orientation. It will allow emergency services to refuse to help gay or Trans peple. (sic)"

I feel your pain Charles. Reading laws and regulations is so boring. I quite like Thai laws because once you know the formula, then reading them is quite straightforward. I am not a lawyer but in my public policy work I have now helped write several laws in Thailand and now Afghanistan. So I do understand when people struggle with comprehending the kind of language that lawyers use to essentially mask the reality of what the law is doing. It is very much an exercise in Orwellian double-speak. Well, you have to hand it to them since they make their living from people trying to push holes or exploit holes in laws so it is in their interest for such documents to be as arcane as possible.

So having taken your challenge to help you interpret the Community Reinvestment Act a while ago, I can offer some small assistance for you to understand what is in this 5 page document.

S143-422.11 makes it legal to discriminate against LGBT people in terms of both public and private services, which may include emergency services since S2.2 and S2.3 covers county and city contracting for service providers

S143-422.13 prohibits any civili action being taken against those who discriminate against LGBT people and only authorises some entity called the Human Relations Commission of the Department of Administration (which presumable congregates at the local Southern Baptist Church) to take action in cases of alleged discrimination, which in any case cannot be brought on the grounds of discriminating against LGBT people

When you read S143-422.11, you will notice the absence of sexual identity and the presence of 'biological sex'. This is what authorises discrimination against LGBT people. Although the good people of North Carolina will no doubt be in a pickle when it is confirmed that there is a biological basis to Transgenderism thus criminalising discrimination against Trans people.

I suspect when the US Solicitor General argues in the Supreme Court for the repeal of this law, this may be one of the legal strategies used.

Happy to help you any time Charles, that is if I am not too busy but you should try reading more of your own because practice makes perfect you know.

The law specifically calls it "biological sex". Nowhere does it address the 'L', 'G' or 'B'.

I think the law ill be thrown out by a federal judge anyway. It would seem to violate the 14th Amendment.

Your sarcasm is duly noted.

By the way, here are a few bathroom incidents you might not have heard about.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault

http://abc7chicago.com/news/police-homeless-man-behind-sex-assault-of-girl-12-inside-cvs-restroom/1168189/

http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/86762439-story

Well, after all that work trying to explain HB2 to you.

For those whose deliberate obtuseness is clearly an effort to elicit some response in the vain hope of gleaning some titbit to use against an antagonist, let me again explain it to you. HB2 defines protections against discrimination for a number of groups of people except LGBT people. It makes a statement of public policy that discrimination against these groups is destructive to society and society's cohesion. Therefore the rationale of HB2 is to protect minorities from discrimination. It does not extend that protection to LGBT and in the case of the T, it specifically refers to a junk-science term 'biological sex'.

If you can't understand that, then there is little to be done to assist you.

Your links all go to examples of male sex offenders. Why are you wanting me to view such trash? One example you used was posted 4 times on another thread as part of the potty paranoia being beat up by a homophobe. You have bought into this? Fine. Place yourself on the wrong side of history again.

Your nativism is not relevant here. These laws have international implications. Australia and the UK have their fair share of ignorant bigoted homophobes and transphobes also. LGBT issues moved rapidly into the mainstream. A number of things caused this. Civil Rights protests in the 70's, AID's in the 80's and the lack of government response to their citizens dying, LGBT people coming out to the point where most people now know someone who is LGBT. Trans people have been hidden longer and only recently started coming out. I have posted links to studies that show increased acceptance of Trans issues by non Trans people when they know someone who is Trans.

But it is a waste of time presenting rationalisations to you because you are not intellectually honest. Your motivation is to find chinks and weaknesses to exploit and you do this by providing a bunch of click bait from right wing rags to which people respond. You have read my other posts in response to the homophobic and transphobic baiting through the use of the male sexual predator trope. Repeating that is a waste of time.

One of these earlier posts on another threat argued your point about the 14th Amendment. But the law's anticipated early demise is no reason for people, from whatever country, not to protest the intent behind this and other laws and to support those who publicly voice their dissent such as President Obama, numerous artists both young and old and many corporates including the NBA. Even your hero, Donald Trump said it was rubbish until he got an attitude adjustment by his back room Establishment thugs.

Let's hope the fairies visit you in your dreams and you wake up an enlightened person. By the way, I make my living with words. I am acutely conscious of the differences between cynicism, the sardonic, the satirical and the sarcastic. My reply to you was gently mocking. Not sarcastic. I would have used a number of different techniques if I had wanted it to be that.

Edited April 23, 2016 by lostboy

[Jingthing]

For those passionately obsessed with TOILETING issues, one wonders if they are happy that the state of North Carolina explicitly denies all civil rights protections for all of it's GLBT citizens (based on them being GLBT people and even those local ones which ALREADY existed) and that that INJUSTICE is somehow "worth it" to keep trangender people out of the toilets that they feel best fits them. Yes? What if YOU were in a class of people being trashed this way? Still OK with you?

Anyway, THANK YOU, President Obama for speaking out against these anti-GLBT bigot laws, these new Jim Crow laws. Someday, GLBT Americans will have FEDERAL protection against these kinds of hateful laws, just as all Americans have based on gender, religion, and race.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Jingthing

[timendres]

Berger has said the law protects women and girls from men using the false pretense of being transgender to enter women's restrooms and locker rooms.

That's the big problem I see here. This law helps prevent the above from happening.

There is no question that the problem you highlight is a real and significant one.

One the other side of the coin, a true Transgender woman who is forced into a Male bathroom is equally in fear of verbal and physical abuse.

It is such a difficult problem to resolve without resorting to "singular" toilets (one person at a time, no gender specified).

[craigt3365]

Berger has said the law protects women and girls from men using the false pretense of being transgender to enter women's restrooms and locker rooms.

That's the big problem I see here. This law helps prevent the above from happening.

Except that it really won't. It will not prevent creepy men from entering women's restrooms -- you're not going to have people at the doors checking IDs. Even before the law (and even now afterwards), all a creepy man would have really needed to say is that it was a mistake and they though they were in the men's room ("Sorry, my stomach was upset and I really wasn't paying attention, I was just looking for a toilet"). Now this wouldn't work if they were being creepy, like taking photos or just hanging around, but these cases wouldn't suddenly be OK because the person claims to be transsexual.

Understood. All this law does is prevent men from going into the women's bathroom, and the reverse. Which is common sense. Understand some transgender men get harassed. And that's a problem. But allowing men to go into the ladies bathroom is a problem also. I think this is much ado over nothing.

Seems there's a lot of confusion over this, and it's a moving target:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/22/espn-flubs-explanation-nc-transgender-bathroom-law/

But North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory, a Republican, last week issued an executive order updating the law to expand state employment protections for LGBT people.

Mr. McCrory’s executive order allows local governments and private businesses the right to enact whichever nondiscrimination employment policies they choose.

The executive order also expanded state equal employment opportunity policies to include sexual orientation and gender identity.

[ggt]

He just can not help himself...being so far above the law and justice system...Obama feels it necessary to pre-empt the judicial process and proclaim his desired outcome of lawsuits thru the press...(but he would be the first to admit that he never interferes in court cases)

Counting the days...goodbye and good riddance...

He has a right to his opinion, as president, to take the Bully Pulpit and strongly express it.

Counting the days to PRESIDENT Hillary Clinton, eh?

President Clinton 2.0 will be as strong or even stronger than Obama on GLBT CIVIL RIGHTS advocacy.

G & Ls have every right anyone else does already...this is not a burning issue in this election...in the words of Democrat Denise Richards of Texas..."It's the economy stupid!"

[ggt]

He just can not help himself.

Yes, he does like to give his opinion on many issues. And in my opinion he has every right to do so. Just like all Americans do. If the position you hold has merit, then you shouldn't be afraid of debate.

Unfortunately the hysterical and strident activists who are trying to force their way into the bathrooms that our wives and daughters use want to stifle debate and censor the opinions they disagree with on the law passed by the good people of North Carolina.

Regular members of society are being subjected to what can only be described as the tyranny of the minority. No, that's not a typo. We're talking about .03% of the population demanding that the majority put aside what they believe in so that these people can grab all the special treatment they can.

It's not about equal rights, it's about special rights that they want for themselves and that the rest of will be subjected to. And then they try to deny us our right to express our concerns.

And all of this is because they claim it is their 'identity'. And, by the way, this 'identity' might change tomorrow.

My way of expressing the current purge of previous American values...the Majority of the Minorities...control the Majority of Americans...needs to change...

[stillbornagain]

He just can not help himself...being so far above the law and justice system...Obama feels it necessary to pre-empt the judicial process and proclaim his desired outcome of lawsuits thru the press...(but he would be the first to admit that he never interferes in court cases)

Counting the days...goodbye and good riddance...

He has a right to his opinion, as president, to take the Bully Pulpit and strongly express it.

Counting the days to PRESIDENT Hillary Clinton, eh?

President Clinton 2.0 will be as strong or even stronger than Obama on GLBT CIVIL RIGHTS advocacy.

G & Ls have every right anyone else does already...this is not a burning issue in this election...in the words of Democrat Denise Richards of Texas..."It's the economy stupid!"

Really? In North Carolina if you're gay you can be fired just for that alone. Except in cases where the local municipality passes ordinances saying otherwise. Let's put this another way. What about if in North Carolina you could be fired just for being black? Except in cases where the local municipality says otherwise. Would you say that black people in North Carolina "have every right anyone else does already?"

Edited April 24, 2016 by stillbornagain

[jak2002003]

I really can not understand why some people keep saying the gay and Trans community what MORE rights than anyone else...... can't you see we just want the same rights... and is that wrong? I think some people would like Gays and Transgendered people to have NO rights.. in fact just persecute them.

The men that say they want to protect their wives and daughters..... what if your son or daughter was gay or Trans... would you not want to protect them?

And refusing to help or serve another human being just because you don't like the look of them or don't agree with their ideals or beliefs is just EVIL in my opinion.

This new law is a disgrace to America.. and it makes America look backward...

These have been implications be people on here that Gays and Trans should be grateful for not being killed.. like they are in other countries.... I a guess that shows what kind of people they are.

[chuckd]

You entirely miss the point about the language used by oppressors of minorities.

You also talk about men in women's toilets when that is not the issue. The law prohibits Trans females using female toilets. Your claim to any right not to see a man in a woman's toilet is beating up a complete non issue. Nobody is talking about that except for the bigots pushing for legislation to discriminate against minorities.

Just spoke with my wife. Here in Thailand, in her experience, ladyboys use the men's bathroom. Not the ladies. A trans gender female is still a male. Operation or not.

Transgenders are a minority. But it's a travesty to compare them to my minority Native American Indian tribe. As well as others.

My Thai wife agrees with your Thai wife. She asked why I wanted to know so I explained the situation in the US.

Her answer...They are still a man and should go to man's room.

My wife disagrees, they use the ladies room. Also looking at a massage parlor close to my shop, no way will they be even remotely comfortable in the boys room.

Oh, and that was without any prompting.

"Oh, and that was without any prompting."

Congratulations. So was mine.

[stevenl]

My Thai wife agrees with your Thai wife. She asked why I wanted to know so I explained the situation in the US.

Her answer...They are still a man and should go to man's room.

My wife disagrees, they use the ladies room. Also looking at a massage parlor close to my shop, no way will they be even remotely comfortable in the boys room.

Oh, and that was without any prompting.

"Oh, and that was without any prompting."

Congratulations. So was mine.

Since you first explained the US situation: NO, yours was not without prompting.

[chuckd]

My Thai wife agrees with your Thai wife. She asked why I wanted to know so I explained the situation in the US.

Her answer...They are still a man and should go to man's room.

My wife disagrees, they use the ladies room. Also looking at a massage parlor close to my shop, no way will they be even remotely comfortable in the boys room.

Oh, and that was without any prompting.

"Oh, and that was without any prompting."

Congratulations. So was mine.

Since you first explained the US situation: NO, yours was not without prompting.

She asked her question AFTER answering mine.

I apologize for not being able to provide a transcript for you but it's just one little cross you're going to have to bear.

Quit playing with words. You only look childish and petulant.

[jak2002003]

You guys who are backing this law... how are you going to feel when you have several ladies in your men's restroom.. all putting on their lipstick and adjusting their tops, combing their hair in the mirror.... I hope you won't feel embarrassed and have to hide your 'equipment' when you at the urinal.. or have any unfortunate 'accidents' if the trans women are very sexy looking. You do realise that the majority of trans women are attracted to men... so the women in the next bathroom would have been perfectly safe.

You can rest assured you little girl ix safe in the ladies toilets now as they trans women are with you and your little boy..... guess you will have some explained to do to you little boy in there with you.. why there are women in the guys restroom?

Oh, and the straight heterosexual pervert will still be attacking women in the ladies toilets.

[Jingthing]

If rapists of any kind want to rape in toilets they'll just do it regardless of the bigot laws. I'm surprised the haters aren't trying to keep gay men out of men's toilets because they might get turned on by something.

[Chicog]

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault

http://abc7chicago.com/news/police-homeless-man-behind-sex-assault-of-girl-12-inside-cvs-restroom/1168189/

http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/86762439-story

One was in a homeless shelter and the other two were simply men.

The first one I can see being vaguely relevant, but the other two?

[joeyg]

Flaming post Removed.

No pun intended...

[ggt]

If rapists of any kind want to rape in toilets they'll just do it regardless of the bigot laws. I'm surprised the haters aren't trying to keep gay men out of men's toilets because they might get turned on by something.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Men's toilets have been a place some young men go to pickup a few extra bucks for years...as are public parks...and so on...

Edited April 24, 2016 by ggt

[stevenl]

My Thai wife agrees with your Thai wife. She asked why I wanted to know so I explained the situation in the US.

Her answer...They are still a man and should go to man's room.

My wife disagrees, they use the ladies room. Also looking at a massage parlor close to my shop, no way will they be even remotely comfortable in the boys room.

Oh, and that was without any prompting.

"Oh, and that was without any prompting."

Congratulations. So was mine.

Since you first explained the US situation: NO, yours was not without prompting.

She asked her question AFTER answering mine.

I apologize for not being able to provide a transcript for you but it's just one little cross you're going to have to bear.

Quit playing with words. You only look childish and petulant.

That's not what you wrote earlier, it even contradicts what you wrote earlier.
Glad that's sorted.

[Jingthing]

If rapists of any kind want to rape in toilets they'll just do it regardless of the bigot laws. I'm surprised the haters aren't trying to keep gay men out of men's toilets because they might get turned on by something.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Men's toilets have been a place some young men go to pickup a few extra bucks for years...as are public parks...and so on...

You sound like quite the expert.

[jak2002003]

If rapists of any kind want to rape in toilets they'll just do it regardless of the bigot laws. I'm surprised the haters aren't trying to keep gay men out of men's toilets because they might get turned on by something.

I suspect that will be the next law they bring in... to ban gays from using public toilets, eating at public restaurants, using the bus or public transport, or associating with families with children, in case they turn them gay for their gay political agenda or molest them.

After that they may deport the gays and trans.. or just round the lot up and shoot them.

I really think that some of the posters on here would be more than happy to go along with that... as it will protect their rights and their Christian faith.

[arjunadawn]

Obama has got to be as close to a yenta as any wash-woman could ever have been. This man has consistently demeaned the office of the Presidency with his endless, and often foolish, meddling in social issues (to the exclusion of upright leadership). A social engineer by design and ambition, he is entirely defined by 1. his aggressive social engineering of the US landscape and 2, the bankruptcy of foreign policy and 3, the fracturing of the US social space.

As in this case above, Obama wades in because in doing so... as appearing as a "Papa Doc," he inflames division and victimization, always at the expense of the traditional, always at the expense of Christians, always at the expense of decorum, always debasing his Office.

Obama was the biggest mistake America ever made.