A crazy decision led Thailand to stockpile tons of rice, but everything could be about to change

[impulse]

You people just can't see that Yingluck was a visionary. Now Thailand will profit in a drought situation. When Joseph did the same thing The pharoah made him second in command over Egypt.

But but but Joseph was a farang in Egypt though perhaps in those days they didn't meed a work permit.

His people were eventually deported anyway when the new Pharaoh came to power...

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

It was crazy stupid and one of the many fruits of the combination of ignorance and hubris that have and will continue to plague this culture.

Maybe it was not stupid.. and just vote buying as others suggested. For that part it worked quite well. If they really thought they could have made money from it.. then it was stupid.

Also with the fake G2G deals it was easy to scam off money (too bad the junta took over otherwise they would have gotten away with it).

So maybe it worked as designed.. a way to cheat and get votes. If the loan from China had gone through they could have covered this up. Just tough luck that they went for an amnesty for the master robber and protests followed, that led to the junta taking over.

Had they not tried to get the criminal from Dubai home without punishment things could have looked totally different.

Yes it was vote buying/populist policies. But before we go full out about how backwards the country is and how stupid the farmers are, lets look at the USDA's support to farmers, Japanese farm support and the UK/EU support of their farmers. These support programs dwarf anything that Thailand has done. However its interesting to note that up to today no elected politician have been found guilty in a court of law of any corruption regarding to the rice scheme. There have been plenty of millers and civil servants put into jail. Regarding vote buying/populist policies, what is the free holidays, above inflation rate salary increases, billions to be spend on subsidised housing for civil servants and pension fund changes for civil servants, else than vote buying or populist policies. We can extend this to the rubber that was bought at above market prices as well as an increase in the volume bought by the government. We can further extend this to VAT free spending sprees for the rich. All of these was however said to be done to stimulate the economy, but ironically that is what PTT said there aim was with the rice scheme. Every government in the world have policies that can be considered populist, the question must however be if they are affordable or not.

[robblok]

It was crazy stupid and one of the many fruits of the combination of ignorance and hubris that have and will continue to plague this culture.

Maybe it was not stupid.. and just vote buying as others suggested. For that part it worked quite well. If they really thought they could have made money from it.. then it was stupid.

Also with the fake G2G deals it was easy to scam off money (too bad the junta took over otherwise they would have gotten away with it).

So maybe it worked as designed.. a way to cheat and get votes. If the loan from China had gone through they could have covered this up. Just tough luck that they went for an amnesty for the master robber and protests followed, that led to the junta taking over.

Had they not tried to get the criminal from Dubai home without punishment things could have looked totally different.

Yes it was vote buying/populist policies. But before we go full out about how backwards the country is and how stupid the farmers are, lets look at the USDA's support to farmers, Japanese farm support and the UK/EU support of their farmers. These support programs dwarf anything that Thailand has done. However its interesting to note that up to today no elected politician have been found guilty in a court of law of any corruption regarding to the rice scheme. There have been plenty of millers and civil servants put into jail. Regarding vote buying/populist policies, what is the free holidays, above inflation rate salary increases, billions to be spend on subsidised housing for civil servants and pension fund changes for civil servants, else than vote buying or populist policies. We can extend this to the rubber that was bought at above market prices as well as an increase in the volume bought by the government. We can further extend this to VAT free spending sprees for the rich. All of these was however said to be done to stimulate the economy, but ironically that is what PTT said there aim was with the rice scheme. Every government in the world have policies that can be considered populist, the question must however be if they are affordable or not.

Just one question.. did the EU and USDA's ever say the programs were self financing and kept them off the balance sheet. That is the problem, stating it did not cost a thing.. and not accepting it cost money even when the world bank and other international organisations said it would fail and cost money. So don't try to compare the two as you cannot compare something that is marketed as self financing and not taken into the countries budget even when everyone said it was not working to programs that are financed from the countries budget and accounted properly

[phoenixdoglover]

It was crazy stupid and one of the many fruits of the combination of ignorance and hubris that have and will continue to plague this culture.

Maybe it was not stupid.. and just vote buying as others suggested. For that part it worked quite well. If they really thought they could have made money from it.. then it was stupid.

Also with the fake G2G deals it was easy to scam off money (too bad the junta took over otherwise they would have gotten away with it).

So maybe it worked as designed.. a way to cheat and get votes. If the loan from China had gone through they could have covered this up. Just tough luck that they went for an amnesty for the master robber and protests followed, that led to the junta taking over.

Had they not tried to get the criminal from Dubai home without punishment things could have looked totally different.

Yes it was vote buying/populist policies. But before we go full out about how backwards the country is and how stupid the farmers are, lets look at the USDA's support to farmers, Japanese farm support and the UK/EU support of their farmers. These support programs dwarf anything that Thailand has done. However its interesting to note that up to today no elected politician have been found guilty in a court of law of any corruption regarding to the rice scheme. There have been plenty of millers and civil servants put into jail. Regarding vote buying/populist policies, what is the free holidays, above inflation rate salary increases, billions to be spend on subsidised housing for civil servants and pension fund changes for civil servants, else than vote buying or populist policies. We can extend this to the rubber that was bought at above market prices as well as an increase in the volume bought by the government. We can further extend this to VAT free spending sprees for the rich. All of these was however said to be done to stimulate the economy, but ironically that is what PTT said there aim was with the rice scheme. Every government in the world have policies that can be considered populist, the question must however be if they are affordable or not.

Just one question.. did the EU and USDA's ever say the programs were self financing and kept them off the balance sheet. That is the problem, stating it did not cost a thing.. and not accepting it cost money even when the world bank and other international organisations said it would fail and cost money. So don't try to compare the two as you cannot compare something that is marketed as self financing and not taken into the countries budget even when everyone said it was not working to programs that are financed from the countries budget and accounted properly

I would point out in the US there are some very significant populist policies that have been sold as self financing and have not been anywhere close to that.

Social Security, Medicare, and Tax Cuts for the Rich come to mind.

None of these money "losing" schemes have resulted in criminal prosecution of elected officials.

Edited May 13, 2016 by phoenixdoglover

[Blue Muton]

Everything is going to change - yes, they're going to stock palm oil instead!

Please post some proof of them stockpiling palm oil at a cost(not price) of around the same amount they pay for the health budget per year.

Because that was what was done.. off books a amount of cost almost as high as the health budget for a year.

If you come up with those numbers Ill tell you I was wrong otherwise.. its a nice diversion.

Seems when I write something about Thaksin in a Junta topic.. i get .. the ehh.. .but Thaksin from the reds.

You deserve an Ehhhh but the Junta now

(to be honest I find it normal to post things comparing junta and Thaksin in topics like this but it seems to be off limits for some reason)

Never mind - it was a joke...

I think probably All Bar One knew that!

[facthailand]

It is unparalleled that any politician could come up with a fiscal platform that didn't pan out! Like wow!

It is similarly unparalleled that any elected leader be criminally charged with malfeasance or corruption over a govt scheme that didn't work. That's just revenge.

Wonder how that rubber buy-back is working...

[billd766]

You people just can't see that Yingluck was a visionary. Now Thailand will profit in a drought situation. When Joseph did the same thing The pharoah made him second in command over Egypt.

But but but Joseph was a farang in Egypt though perhaps in those days they didn't meed a work permit.

he was also gay, i remember his coat of many colours

I am sure that was a Technicolour Dreamcoat

[whaleboneman]

Rice is so passé. My lady friend made suhpagetti yesterday. The pasta was boiled for 15 minutes. Recommended boiling time 7 minutes. Then she added sweet ketchup and chopped hotdog sausage. I see the change is coming!

Think it may be time for you to learn to cook?

[Valentine]

The scheme was 2 pronged, designed not only to buy votes but to ensure relatives & cronies could make a lot of money.

[MaiChai]

I think we have covered this subject a couple of times before?

[halloween]

I would point out in the US there are some very significant populist policies that have been sold as self financing and have not been anywhere close to that.

Social Security, Medicare, and Tax Cuts for the Rich come to mind.

None of these money "losing" schemes have resulted in criminal prosecution of elected officials.

You're really going well today, failing to understand the concept of criminal negligence, and now equating the rice scam with social security and medicare. Did you forget your medication?

[aussieinthailand]

Everything is going to change - yes, they're going to stock palm oil instead!

Please post some proof of them stockpiling palm oil at a cost(not price) of around the same amount they pay for the health budget per year.

Because that was what was done.. off books a amount of cost almost as high as the health budget for a year.

If you come up with those numbers Ill tell you I was wrong otherwise.. its a nice diversion.

Seems when I write something about Thaksin in a Junta topic.. i get .. the ehh.. .but Thaksin from the reds.

You deserve an Ehhhh but the Junta now

(to be honest I find it normal to post things comparing junta and Thaksin in topics like this but it seems to be off limits for some reason)

No worries mate just google the article ""Thailand's palm oil crisis: "Mr S' strikes again"".

Then when you have finished reading come back and tell us what you think, then apply that knowledge to the planning of the coup, now you will be a wear that you backed people that a corrupt, liars cheats, and ________!

[phoenixdoglover]

I would point out in the US there are some very significant populist policies that have been sold as self financing and have not been anywhere close to that.

Social Security, Medicare, and Tax Cuts for the Rich come to mind.

None of these money "losing" schemes have resulted in criminal prosecution of elected officials.

You're really going well today, failing to understand the concept of criminal negligence, and now equating the rice scam with social security and medicare. Did you forget your medication?

I was not commenting on any criminal aspects of the Thai rice scheme. I was responding to a question whether there were similar over-budget or off balance sheet programs in EU or US.

My response was brief and factual.

In my view, it remains to be seen (or perhaps never seen, as we are talking about Thailand, after all) how much of the rice scheme was:

- a policy designed to secure votes, with little regard for feasibility

- a policy that had no chance of success, given external market forces

- a policy that could have succeeded better in different times, and with different reactions by other market players, notably India

I personally vote for a mix of options 1 and 2.

As to whether it was a "scam" or "corrupt", I am unimpressed by those words, because they tell me nothing. In order to convince me a scam has occurred, I would have to have the details. In my view, bad policy is not "a scam", unless there was an intent to defraud people.

I have no doubt the rice program was riddled with corrupt practices. However, the investigatory powers of the NCPO and its organs of State, and the independent NACC, seem to have uncovered only two notable cases: 1) the charge of oversight negligence of the Yingluck government (in essence, allowing the program to continue even though it was losing money), and 2) A 1.8 billion baht G2G rice deal being investigated by NACC and is described as fake (but for which the most recent news report is confusing at best).

Now back to the question I was responding to. Are there programs in the US, for example, which were sold by politicians as self financing, but have not been so? The answer is of course, Yes.

Medicare in the US is an example.

- Sold as self-financing (through payroll deductions and a managed fund)

- In significant financial difficulties for the past 20 or more years

- projected to go "bankrupt" due to lack of sufficient funding to cover the medical needs of an ageing population

- and, just for grins, riddled with corruption, principally overcharging and phony claims by some criminal heath providers

Have any politicians been charged with a civil or criminal offense for this "sorry" program in the US? No. The citizens get to express their displeasure through speech, lobbying and "voting the bums out" should they choose to do so. And the hope is the elected representatives fix the program before it goes belly up.

The current Thai government is playing a unique hand with its case against Yingluck. I don't object. But I do believe it is fundamentally wrong for this type of case to be handled at the Supreme Court level, as this effectively closes off an avenue for appeal. That, in my view, is a huge defect in the Thai court system right now, which is being expanded with the newly formed Administrative court at the upper level (created and staffed by the Junta). This is ripe for abuse of power.

[kannot]

It was crazy stupid and one of the many fruits of the combination of ignorance and hubris that have and will continue to plague this culture.

Maybe it was not stupid.. and just vote buying as others suggested. For that part it worked quite well. If they really thought they could have made money from it.. then it was stupid.

Also with the fake G2G deals it was easy to scam off money (too bad the junta took over otherwise they would have gotten away with it).

So maybe it worked as designed.. a way to cheat and get votes. If the loan from China had gone through they could have covered this up. Just tough luck that they went for an amnesty for the master robber and protests followed, that led to the junta taking over.

Had they not tried to get the criminal from Dubai home without punishment things could have looked totally different.

Theyre all criminals form the top to the bottom doesnt matter who is in power here , rotten to the core

[halloween]

I would point out in the US there are some very significant populist policies that have been sold as self financing and have not been anywhere close to that.

Social Security, Medicare, and Tax Cuts for the Rich come to mind.

None of these money "losing" schemes have resulted in criminal prosecution of elected officials.

You're really going well today, failing to understand the concept of criminal negligence, and now equating the rice scam with social security and medicare. Did you forget your medication?

I was not commenting on any criminal aspects of the Thai rice scheme. I was responding to a question whether there were similar over-budget or off balance sheet programs in EU or US.

My response was brief and factual.

In my view, it remains to be seen (or perhaps never seen, as we are talking about Thailand, after all) how much of the rice scheme was:

- a policy designed to secure votes, with little regard for feasibility

- a policy that had no chance of success, given external market forces

- a policy that could have succeeded better in different times, and with different reactions by other market players, notably India

I personally vote for a mix of options 1 and 2.

As to whether it was a "scam" or "corrupt", I am unimpressed by those words, because they tell me nothing. In order to convince me a scam has occurred, I would have to have the details. In my view, bad policy is not "a scam", unless there was an intent to defraud people.

I have no doubt the rice program was riddled with corrupt practices. However, the investigatory powers of the NCPO and its organs of State, and the independent NACC, seem to have uncovered only two notable cases: 1) the charge of oversight negligence of the Yingluck government (in essence, allowing the program to continue even though it was losing money), and 2) A 1.8 billion baht G2G rice deal being investigated by NACC and is described as fake (but for which the most recent news report is confusing at best).

Now back to the question I was responding to. Are there programs in the US, for example, which were sold by politicians as self financing, but have not been so? The answer is of course, Yes.

Medicare in the US is an example.

- Sold as self-financing (through payroll deductions and a managed fund)

- In significant financial difficulties for the past 20 or more years

- projected to go "bankrupt" due to lack of sufficient funding to cover the medical needs of an ageing population

- and, just for grins, riddled with corruption, principally overcharging and phony claims by some criminal heath providers

Have any politicians been charged with a civil or criminal offense for this "sorry" program in the US? No. The citizens get to express their displeasure through speech, lobbying and "voting the bums out" should they choose to do so. And the hope is the elected representatives fix the program before it goes belly up.

The current Thai government is playing a unique hand with its case against Yingluck. I don't object. But I do believe it is fundamentally wrong for this type of case to be handled at the Supreme Court level, as this effectively closes off an avenue for appeal. That, in my view, is a huge defect in the Thai court system right now, which is being expanded with the newly formed Administrative court at the upper level (created and staffed by the Junta). This is ripe for abuse of power.

The rice scam was an electoral promise to raise the incomes of the "poorest rice farmers" (in effect, a social policy) in return for their vote, perfect targetting because they are poor, largely uneducated and gullible enough to think it might work. Did the incomes of the "poorest rice farmers" (BTW a direct Yingluk quote) rise? Which part of scam don't you understand?

BTW US Medicare is certainly not perfect, but at the least there was an intent to help, not a deliberate lie to get the right box ticked.