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Thaksin's Children To Be Forced To Pay Income Tax At 37 Per Cent Rate


Jai Dee

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Headline: Thaksin's children to testify on tax case

Lawyer: Evidence will prove they did not lie :D

Mr Noppadol said the evidence - documents to prove there was a real transaction between the siblings and their own company Ample Rich - would be submitted to the tax agency this week.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories.php?id=114997

The Nation described the documents as "recently discovered". Perhaps recently created. Will the analysis of payments and receipts fit with the documents oor ?

I bet the forged documents will be flawed. Again, an unticked check box! :o

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Pridiyathorn to remove revenue chief

Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister M R Pridiyathorn Devakula said Tuesday that he will remove Sirote Swasdipanich as director-general of the Revenue Department once he is officially informed by the National Counter Corruption Commission of charges against Sirote.

The NCCC has found probable causes of wrongdoing by Sirote for not collecting tax from the Shinawatra family over the sale of their stakes in Shin Corp.

Pridiyathorn said he is awaiting an official letter from the NCCC before he could take any action against Sirote and other revenue officials for alleged dereliction of duty.

Earlier, Deputy Finance Minister Sommai Phasee, said that Sirote could not perform his duty after the NCCC charged him.

Pridiyathorn Tuesday declined to say who would replace Sirote.

The Nation

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With the exception of previous TRT officials, no one is required to pay taxes on the profits of the sale of stock in Thailand. This applies to Thais and Farangs. Without caring a whole lot what happens to the Shin kids, I hope Thailand retains this investment policy. In their lust to seize power, I hope the anti-Thaksin brigade doesn't do to much damage. As they have a lot more money than the TRT folk, I suspect they will keep the economy intact as they have more to lose. Thai stock valuations continue to be attractive.

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Obviously the convoluted process that Thaksin’s kiddies used to sell off Shin falls outside the realm of typical stock trading and normal taxing protocol, unless it’s a common practice to buy shares for 1 baht one day and sell for 50 baht the next day. If that’s the case, I’d imagine an even more robust S.E.T.

The case extends far, far beyond the normal “no tax on capital gains.”

As for the assets of the TRT party types… I don’t think any group in Thailand could come anywhere near the totals from this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=89138

If they excelled in one thing, the TRT were experts at plundering.

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Sriracha,

I agree that TRT were fairly adept at commission politics, up to par with other administrations (the current no exception). But really, TRT's wealth is fairly low when compared with other groups in Thailand. In any case, there is no shortage of wealth amongst all the political players. True the world over!

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Sriracha,

I agree that TRT were fairly adept at commission politics, up to par with other administrations (the current no exception). But really, TRT's wealth is fairly low when compared with other groups in Thailand. In any case, there is no shortage of wealth amongst all the political players. True the world over!

True the TRT itself's wealth was fairly low albeit larger than that of any other political party, but if you take a look at their business supporters and those in their "gang" during their administrations it was second to none. Now with the TRT demise and mass desertions this may have changed. Previous close, rich and powerful business allies are very quiet at the moment, but I would guess they are more interested in continuing to make money than to support Mr. Thaksin and the remnants of TRT.

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Obviously the convoluted process that Thaksin’s kiddies used to sell off Shin falls outside the realm of typical stock trading and normal taxing protocol, unless it’s a common practice to buy shares for 1 baht one day and sell for 50 baht the next day. If that’s the case, I’d imagine an even more robust S.E.T.

The case extends far, far beyond the normal “no tax on capital gains.”

Why? What does it matter how much the capital gains are if there is no tax on capital gains? No matter how many times I run the calculation, my calculator still shows that zero % tax on any amount is still zero.

There is no tax on capital gains. Politically, the CNS may be over-riding this, but why throw Sirote and the others in the middle of this political issue and take their pensions away? They were not Thaksin's people.

Sirote has always had a good (honest) reputation, and does not deserve this.

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Why? What does it matter how much the capital gains are if there is no tax on capital gains? No matter how many times I run the calculation, my calculator still shows that zero % tax on any amount is still zero.

Since when does common sense matter, especially here in these debates?

Thaksin was bad enough, but no problem - he has to be made even worse, no matter that many of the accusations do belong into the realm of fantasy.

This unfortunately is a strong tendency here as well under the pro coup academics and activists who were formerly fighting against military dictatorships. In order to justify their unprecedented siding with their former opponents, they have to convince themselves, and the rest of the population, that Thaksin, even though elected, was far worse than their former enemies. And part of that is throwing all common sense over board (and together with that laws, constitutional rights, and democratic advances of the last 14 years), no matter what long term damage they do politically, socially and economically.

Now we have the military/burocracy apparatus straight back in control and power, after having fought against this exact system for decades, and supported even by many who have fought against this system in the past.

Mind boggling.

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Why? What does it matter how much the capital gains are if there is no tax on capital gains? No matter how many times I run the calculation, my calculator still shows that zero % tax on any amount is still zero.

Since when does common sense matter, especially here in these debates?

Thaksin was bad enough, but no problem - he has to be made even worse, no matter that many of the accusations do belong into the realm of fantasy.

This unfortunately is a strong tendency here as well under the pro coup academics and activists who were formerly fighting against military dictatorships. In order to justify their unprecedented siding with their former opponents, they have to convince themselves, and the rest of the population, that Thaksin, even though elected, was far worse than their former enemies. And part of that is throwing all common sense over board (and together with that laws, constitutional rights, and democratic advances of the last 14 years), no matter what long term damage they do politically, socially and economically.

Now we have the military/burocracy apparatus straight back in control and power, after having fought against this exact system for decades, and supported even by many who have fought against this system in the past.

Mind boggling.

Hi Colpyat

We shouldnt forget that there other things going on in the country that could explain all kind of weird alliances. However, and maybe luckily for our peace of mind, we cant really discuss these.

By the way if you want to be even handed the previous government also threw all kinds of laws, and constitutional rights overboard without considering what long term damage they did politically, socially and economically. Of course nobody should have done this, but now we just have to live with the reality. The best we can hope for from what is not a simple single issue problem is a return to democratic stability in the announced timeframe. Mind you the prospect after the next election of Mr. Banharn leading a government backed by a bunch of ex TRT renegades doesnt fill me with excitement, but then again I am not Thai. Maybe it is not surprising some people seem to be talking up the return of Mr. Chuan although to be fair I think he recognizes that his time is in the past and will not bite. It will actually be interesting to see what new generation of politicians rise from all of this. There will certainly be opportunities.

Apologies for getting off topic.

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but then again I am not Thai.

Well, yeah, true. Still does affect me directly because i live here, and presently simply could not go anywhere else even if i wanted to.

But yes, again i have to agree with your post.

Only one thing - i may be an optimist, but i do believe that over time the Thaksin government would have been thrown out at the ballot box, which then would have led to the development of something resembling a true democracy.

I am very sure that if we would have had no coup but elections TRT would have won, but with a far smaller majority, and therefore a far more effective opposition. As you have many times pointed out - more and more people did get desillusioned with TRT and Thaksin.

The coup not just resulted in getting Thaksin out prematurely, but it also gave the old guard who only reluctantly gave up their hold on power a unique opportunity to get back on the control panel.

Topics such as this thread, and the halfarsed investigations in the drugwar and the killings in the south (yeah, great, apologising but not doing anything against the officers that ordered Tak Bai is definately helpful...) are nothing but populist diversion tactics for realities that become more and more clear now. What helps the writing of a new constitution, and hoping for a better one, when already the junta is in the process of installing the new ISOC that is beyond the control of any elected politician?

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What helps the writing of a new constitution, and hoping for a better one, when already the junta is in the process of installing the new ISOC that is beyond the control of any elected politician?

That is my point. Since the CNS really has no obstacles in their way, why make hardworking civil servants the casualties of these tax and securities investigations?

As Sriracha John said: The tax case extends far, far beyond the normal “no tax on capital gains.” Let's face it. The whole Ample Rich deal smells. However, is this a reason to say that the tax authorities are guilty of malfeasance when they made a decision in accordance with the country's capital gains tax laws? Remember, the PM was in power and no other information was being made available, other than the deal didn't look right. From what has been reported so far, the taxing authorities had no other option other than to follow the tax laws.

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but then again I am not Thai.

Well, yeah, true. Still does affect me directly because i live here, and presently simply could not go anywhere else even if i wanted to.

But yes, again i have to agree with your post.

Only one thing - i may be an optimist, but i do believe that over time the Thaksin government would have been thrown out at the ballot box, which then would have led to the development of something resembling a true democracy.

I am very sure that if we would have had no coup but elections TRT would have won, but with a far smaller majority, and therefore a far more effective opposition. As you have many times pointed out - more and more people did get desillusioned with TRT and Thaksin.

The coup not just resulted in getting Thaksin out prematurely, but it also gave the old guard who only reluctantly gave up their hold on power a unique opportunity to get back on the control panel.

Topics such as this thread, and the halfarsed investigations in the drugwar and the killings in the south (yeah, great, apologising but not doing anything against the officers that ordered Tak Bai is definately helpful...) are nothing but populist diversion tactics for realities that become more and more clear now. What helps the writing of a new constitution, and hoping for a better one, when already the junta is in the process of installing the new ISOC that is beyond the control of any elected politician?

I actually think the writing of the new constitution will see a lot of opinions put forward by quite a lot of different groups. Already some of the pro-democracy groups associated with the PAD have said they will parallel the writing group in public with their own ideas. Then there are the pro-1997 people who just want it slightly ammended, which bizarrely includes the TRT and Democrat parties. What odds on a Dem-rump TRT government to keep out Banharn after the next election? Then you have newer opposition groups. Plus will anyone raise the big one of why exclude the majority of the people by stipulating degrees are needed to be MPs or charter writers? There will also inevitably have to be public hearings. In reality I feel that the big test of the current government will be in how much they listen to these groups and try to accomodate their ideas. The ruling group have I think both bought themselves the time but also set up expectations with the new constitution in what is now less than a year. They need to deliver on that or potentially find themselves in the position Mr. Thaksin found himself vis a vis demonstrations. To deliver a constitution that will satisfy everyone will be quite a task, and then it has to be passed in a referendum. Still we must hope.

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The whole Ample Rich deal smells.

Not just the Ample Rich deal smells. Many things there stink - what about the main bank which facilitated the deal, who else was holding shares of ShinCorp? Do you tink we will ever get an open investigation? I doubt that very much.

But that is already tradition in Thailand.

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To deliver a constitution that will satisfy everyone will be quite a task, and then it has to be passed in a referendum. Still we must hope.

Well, we have had a constitution that worked somewhat OK, and just needed a few changes.

A constitution is not the holy grail, in every constitution you will find weak points. We can go on tearing up constitutions forever. But as long as strong social forces do abuse the constitutions, that counts for Thaksin as well as the old power elites, no constitution is worth the paper it is written upon. Thaksin has abused the constitution, and the coup makers did even more so by staging a coup.

And, whatever the next constitution contains, the junta is already in the process to install their own version of Homeland Security that is under no scrutinity of any future elected government.

Hope? What use is representation by any elected government when the real power is back with the military?

I doubt somewhat that this government will find itself in the same position as Thaksin. The interim constitution does not give the people a clear right of assembly, a right that has hindered Thaksin from stepping in against the PAD demonstration. If very much doubt that the present government would allow demonstrations from becoming as large as the PAD ones.

Nobody knows also what the PAD is going to do. Sondhi L. is increasingly at odds with some members of the present government.

Basically, any way you look at it, all depends on the grace of the present government. And given the history of military governments in Thailand, this is not a very comfortable situation, unless one can be comfortable with hope alone.

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What are you talking about - no tax on capital gains???

It only applies to stock bought and sold on the open market. Everything else it taxed. Egat employees paid taxes on the stocks even BEFORE the company was privatised.

Assets confiscated from Chatichai government were counted in millions, assets possibly confiscated from TRT government are counted in billions.

Do you know the difference between a million and a billion?

Since when does common sense matter, especially here in these debates?

That explains why some poster don't make any sense while pretending to be great analytics.

It still matters to people who value it. It doesn't matter to people who put ideology before any common sense.

For the past two pages people have completely ignored tax rules and completely ignored that TRT's profits were thousands times higher than any other government, and still had audacity to lament absense of common sense.

Who was that poster who said the current government, barely a month in power, is as corrupt as TRT? Did he also complain about lack of common sense?

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The whole Ample Rich deal smells.

Not just the Ample Rich deal smells. Many things there stink - what about the main bank which facilitated the deal, who else was holding shares of ShinCorp? Do you tink we will ever get an open investigation? I doubt that very much.

But that is already tradition in Thailand.

And on the previous page you call yourself an optimist!

So many negative viewpoints from the colonel regarding the junta.

To get back on topic- as mentioned Ample Rich stinks, 1 baht to 49 baht in a day. But then so did Thaksin putting millions of baht in his maid's name.

Regarding Khun Sirote's possible dismissal, Potchaman gave a 'wedding gift' to her adopted brother through her maid nearly 2 years after the wedding.

Sure a genuine wedding gift!

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What are you talking about - no tax on capital gains???

It only applies to stock bought and sold on the open market. Everything else it taxed. Egat employees paid taxes on the stocks even BEFORE the company was privatised.

Assets confiscated from Chatichai government were counted in millions, assets possibly confiscated from TRT government are counted in billions.

Do you know the difference between a million and a billion?

Since when does common sense matter, especially here in these debates?

That explains why some poster don't make any sense while pretending to be great analytics.

It still matters to people who value it. It doesn't matter to people who put ideology before any common sense.

For the past two pages people have completely ignored tax rules and completely ignored that TRT's profits were thousands times higher than any other government, and still had audacity to lament absense of common sense.

Who was that poster who said the current government, barely a month in power, is as corrupt as TRT? Did he also complain about lack of common sense?

Excellent as always, Plus...

One does wonder when the apologists will stop apologizing and move on elsewere.

Perhaps it will be when they learn the difference between a million and a billion.

Or perhaps it will be when they stop pretending and display some sincerity and honesty.

Edited by sriracha john
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Regarding Khun Sirote's possible dismissal, Potchaman gave a 'wedding gift' to her adopted brother through her maid nearly 2 years after the wedding.

Sure a genuine wedding gift!

My question is did Khun Sirote do anything wrong? There have been no allegations that he or anyone else received any bribes or favors, nor with his reputation would you suspect any. He is not part of the criminal investigations into the transaction, and only fault seems to be that he is being held responsible for the decision not to tax the brother in law (Khun Bannapot).

The transactions began in the 1990's when Khunying Potjaman gifted 4.5 million shares to her maid, Khun Duangta. In 1997, the Khunying gifted THB 738 million to her brother in law, who later purchased the shares from Khun Duangta, who then gifted the money back to Khunying Potjaman.

At no time has anyone ever alleged that there would be any tax on the gift of the shares to the maid, nor has there been any allegations anyplace that there would be tax on the THB 738 million gifted back to the Khunying Potjaman. If these are legitimate gifts, then why isn't the gift to Khun Bannapot also legitimate?

Also, when did Khun Sirote join the Thai Revenue Department? It has been reported that he became DG in 2004, and this is borne out by the Revenue Department's 2003 annual report which does not even list Khun Sirote as a senior officer. Was he even at the Thai Revenue Department in 1997?

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Regarding Khun Sirote's possible dismissal, Potchaman gave a 'wedding gift' to her adopted brother through her maid nearly 2 years after the wedding.

Sure a genuine wedding gift!

My question is did Khun Sirote do anything wrong? There have been no allegations that he or anyone else received any bribes or favors, nor with his reputation would you suspect any. He is not part of the criminal investigations into the transaction, and only fault seems to be that he is being held responsible for the decision not to tax the brother in law (Khun Bannapot).

The transactions began in the 1990's when Khunying Potjaman gifted 4.5 million shares to her maid, Khun Duangta. In 1997, the Khunying gifted THB 738 million to her brother in law, who later purchased the shares from Khun Duangta, who then gifted the money back to Khunying Potjaman.

At no time has anyone ever alleged that there would be any tax on the gift of the shares to the maid, nor has there been any allegations anyplace that there would be tax on the THB 738 million gifted back to the Khunying Potjaman. If these are legitimate gifts, then why isn't the gift to Khun Bannapot also legitimate?

Also, when did Khun Sirote join the Thai Revenue Department? It has been reported that he became DG in 2004, and this is borne out by the Revenue Department's 2003 annual report which does not even list Khun Sirote as a senior officer. Was he even at the Thai Revenue Department in 1997?

i believe the earlier cases you refer to are also under investigation, the maid Duangta is likely to escape prosecution as she was obviously a pawn in the scam.

Expect to see further charges pressed.

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The transactions began in the 1990's when Khunying Potjaman gifted 4.5 million shares to her maid, Khun Duangta. In 1997, the Khunying gifted THB 738 million to her brother in law, who later purchased the shares from Khun Duangta, who then gifted the money back to Khunying Potjaman.

As gift is not a verb it's very difficult to understand most of it. Pojamarn "gifted" shares to Banapot who in return "gifted" the money back????

If Sirote failed to collect taxes from Thaksin's children, there's no need to prove that he recieved any kickbacks for that. I believe they are charging him with dereliction of duty, not corruption.

Wasn't he the guy who back in February explained in detail why Shinawatras don't need to pay any tax, only to plead total ignorance in his defence two weeks ago?

There goes his reputation.

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REVENUE DEPT CHIEF FACES CRIMINAL CHARGES

Resigning will not help Sirote

Sirote Swasdipanich would still be subject to disciplinary and criminal action even if he resigned as chief of the Revenue Department, National Counter Corruption Commission (NCCC) member Klanarong Chanthik said yesterday. His remark followed an email message Mr Sirote sent to staff on Tuesday, which many thought was a farewell statement.

Mr Klanarong said that even if Mr Sirote stepped down as department chief, it would not change the fact that he had been ruled guilty of serious dereliction of duty by the NCCC over the controversial share transfer between Khunying Potjaman...

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/14Dec2006_news10.php

Edited by sriracha john
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i believe the earlier cases you refer to are also under investigation, the maid Duangta is likely to escape prosecution as she was obviously a pawn in the scam.

Expect to see further charges pressed.

According to what has been publicly released, the investigations you are referring to are criminal investigations into the round tripping of the funds to pay for the shares that were gifted. This has nothing to do with Khun Sirote. The criminal investigation is separate.

If there is no tax liability on the gift of shares to the maid, and no tax liability on the gift of the THB 738 million from the maid back to the Khunying (which the Khunying would normally have to pay), why then is there a tax liability on the funds gifted by the Khunying to her brother-in-law? At least Khun Bannapot is family, the maid is not.

Siripon, there have been a lot of rumors that a deal has been struck and the Khunying has escaped paying taxes that you and I would have to pay. Unfortuantely, Khun Sirote was not included in this. However, the Khunying and the brother-in-law are still subject to the criminal investigation.

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The transactions began in the 1990's when Khunying Potjaman gifted 4.5 million shares to her maid, Khun Duangta. In 1997, the Khunying gifted THB 738 million to her brother in law, who later purchased the shares from Khun Duangta, who then gifted the money back to Khunying Potjaman.

As gift is not a verb it's very difficult to understand most of it. Pojamarn "gifted" shares to Banapot who in return "gifted" the money back????

Plus, so now you have nothing better to do but correct English on TV postings? There goes your reputation.

As it relates to Khun Sirote, it is apparent that he is being hung out to dry in the 1997 transaction for allowing no tax to be collected much later during the SHIN sale, which will prove much more difficult to prove in court. The 1997 transaction is an alleged tax scam performed by the Khunying and there is a criminal investigation on this. There is also a criminal investigation on Khun Sirote for not collecting taxes. There is a lot more on this that has not been reported, and shouldn't be until after the trial.

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Shinawatra family attorney protest AEC subcommittee member appointment

The Shinawatra family attorney has submitted documents opposing the appointment of Mr. Sak Korsangruang (สัก กอแสงเรือง) and Mr. Khra-narong Janthig (กล้านรงค์ จันทิก) as members of a prosecution subcommittee investigating the sale of Shinawatra company stocks.

The attorney to the Shinawatra family, Mr. Theera Thamasit (ธีระ ธรรมสิทธิ์), has reportedly submitted documents to the Assets Examination Committeem which stated his opposition to the establishment of a prosecution subcommittee to try Mr. Banpot Damapong (บรรณพจน์ ดามาพงศ์), the elder brother of Khunying Pojamarn Shinawatra (พจมาน ชินวัตร). Mr Banpot had reportedly received share transfers in the Shinawatra Computers and Communications company without paying taxes.

Mr. Theera stated after his meeting with AEC officials that he was among one of the legal team members assigned by former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra to oppose the appointment of Mr. Sak Korsangruang (สัก กอแสงเรือง) and Mr. Khra-narong Janthig (กล้านรงค์ จันทิก) to serve in the prosecution subcommittee. Meanwhile Mr. Nathapol Patama (นพดล ปัทมะ), the main attorney for the Shinawatra family, gave a telephone interview in which he said that prosecution members should be of impartiality so that the Shinwatra case could proceed smoothly. Mr. Nathapol said it was the right of the accused to protest during the judicial process.

ThaiNews

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Shinawatra family attorney protest AEC subcommittee member appointment

The Shinawatra family attorney has submitted documents opposing the appointment of Mr. Sak Korsangruang (สัก กอแสงเรือง) and Mr. Khra-narong Janthig (กล้านรงค์ จันทิก) as members of a prosecution subcommittee investigating the sale of Shinawatra company stocks.

The attorney to the Shinawatra family, Mr. Theera Thamasit (ธีระ ธรรมสิทธิ์), has reportedly submitted documents to the Assets Examination Committeem which stated his opposition to the establishment of a prosecution subcommittee to try Mr. Banpot Damapong (บรรณพจน์ ดามาพงศ์), the elder brother of Khunying Pojamarn Shinawatra (พจมาน ชินวัตร). Mr Banpot had reportedly received share transfers in the Shinawatra Computers and Communications company without paying taxes.

Mr. Theera stated after his meeting with AEC officials that he was among one of the legal team members assigned by former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra to oppose the appointment of Mr. Sak Korsangruang (สัก กอแสงเรือง) and Mr. Khra-narong Janthig (กล้านรงค์ จันทิก) to serve in the prosecution subcommittee. Meanwhile Mr. Nathapol Patama (นพดล ปัทมะ), the main attorney for the Shinawatra family, gave a telephone interview in which he said that prosecution members should be of impartiality so that the Shinwatra case could proceed smoothly. Mr. Nathapol said it was the right of the accused to protest during the judicial process.

ThaiNews

Did he give any grounds for them not being impartial?

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From the Nation:

"A recently revealed classified letter dated November 30, 2000, says taxes should have been collected on two transfers of Shin shares from Thaksin and his wife Pojaman to Thaksin’s brother-in-law Bhanapot Damapong and Thaksin’s younger sister Yingluk.

Permanent secretary for finance Suparut Kawatkul sent the letter to the National Counter Corruption Commission when he was still director-general of the Revenue Department.

The two transactions, involving 26.8 million (for Bhanapot) and 2 million shares (for Yingluk) were conducted outside the stock market and were priced at only Bt10 per share compared to a market price of Bt150 per share.

The transactions were executed in September 2000. Thaksin was elected prime minister the following year. In the letter, Suparut recommended that Bhanapot and Yingluk pay income tax on the profits that had resulted from the discrepancy between the asking price and their market rate.

When asked about this, Sirote Swasdipanich, director-general of the Revenue Department, said: “I cannot comment on specific taxpayers because it is against the law to reveal information about individual taxpayers.”

Asked why the Revenue Department had not collected taxes from Bhanapot and Yingluk, Sirote said that capital gains had not been realised because the two buyers did not resell their shares after buying them from Thaksin and Pojaman. Bhanapot and Yingluk later sold their shares to Temasek Holdings and received capital gains but that sale was tax exempt, Sirote said."

http://nationmultimedia.com/search/page.ar...date=2006-02-01

It will be difficult for Sirote to wriggle out of that one, even if he uses "gifted" as a verb.

Oldmanriver, I don't care about English, I only object to making up new words to explain obvious wrongdoings.

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