Foreign owned business closings ... worse than ever?

[Scotwight]

" Pattaya getting bigger - new construction everywhere"

that's hardly a measure of whether businesses in Pattaya are on a sound economic footing ?

it just means there will be even more people caught with their pants down during the next global economic crisis

the same phenomenon happened just before the 1997 Asian economic crisis and led to an epidemic of non-performing loans with concrete skeletons everywhere

Housing starts and building permits are both considered leading indicators,

A leading indicator is a measurable economic factor that changes before the economy starts to follow a particular pattern or trend. Leading indicators are used to predict changes in the economy

http://www.investopedia.com/university/releases/housingstarts.asp

Housing starts were undoubtedly leading indicators in 1997 in Thailand and in 2007 in the US, unfortunately they lead the wrong direction.

No they didn't. Since the predictions of the economic death of Pattaya began on Thai Visa in 2004 the housing starts and building permits have been very accurate. You will find if you examine 1996 to 2016 the leading indicators have also been quite accurate for the West.

[Berty100]

" Pattaya getting bigger - new construction everywhere"

that's hardly a measure of whether businesses in Pattaya are on a sound economic footing ?

it just means there will be even more people caught with their pants down during the next global economic crisis

the same phenomenon happened just before the 1997 Asian economic crisis and led to an epidemic of non-performing loans with concrete skeletons everywhere

Housing starts and building permits are both considered leading indicators,

A leading indicator is a measurable economic factor that changes before the economy starts to follow a particular pattern or trend. Leading indicators are used to predict changes in the economy

http://www.investopedia.com/university/releases/housingstarts.asp

Housing starts were undoubtedly leading indicators in 1997 in Thailand and in 2007 in the US, unfortunately they lead the wrong direction.

No they didn't. Since the predictions of the economic death of Pattaya began on Thai Visa in 2004 the housing starts and building permits have been very accurate. You will find if you examine 1996 to 2016 the leading indicators have also been quite accurate for the West.

So you deny that there was a real building boom in Thailand just prior to the crash of 1997, and similar in the US anno 2007?

[Scotwight]

Housing starts were undoubtedly leading indicators in 1997 in Thailand and in 2007 in the US, unfortunately they lead the wrong direction.

No they didn't. Since the predictions of the economic death of Pattaya began on Thai Visa in 2004 the housing starts and building permits have been very accurate. You will find if you examine 1996 to 2016 the leading indicators have also been quite accurate for the West.

So you deny that there was a real building boom in Thailand just prior to the crash of 1997, and similar in the US anno 2007?

Today and 1997 have nothing in common. Thailand floated the baht in 1997. Totally different situation. Too far apart to even debate. The USA and Thailand in 1997 again nothing similar. The Thai government was forced to float the baht due to lack of foreign currency to support its currency peg to the U.S. dollar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Asian_financial_crisis

[elgordo38]

Housing starts were undoubtedly leading indicators in 1997 in Thailand and in 2007 in the US, unfortunately they lead the wrong direction.

No they didn't. Since the predictions of the economic death of Pattaya began on Thai Visa in 2004 the housing starts and building permits have been very accurate. You will find if you examine 1996 to 2016 the leading indicators have also been quite accurate for the West.

So you deny that there was a real building boom in Thailand just prior to the crash of 1997, and similar in the US anno 2007?

Today and 1997 have nothing in common. Thailand floated the baht in 1997. Totally different situation. Too far apart to even debate. The USA and Thailand in 1997 again nothing similar. The Thai government was forced to float the baht due to lack of foreign currency to support its currency peg to the U.S. dollar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Asian_financial_crisis

Watching the Thai baht and the economic news methinks they are again back stopping the baht. 1997 is gone and its 2016 but the old face saving cultural thing still exists today. In 1997 when the IMF looked into the cupboard it was bare. Maybe a check again would be in order. The military government can always point to the strength of the baht and claim a victory.

Edited June 14, 2016 by elgordo38

[Scotwight]

Today and 1997 have nothing in common. Thailand floated the baht in 1997. Totally different situation. Too far apart to even debate. The USA and Thailand in 1997 again nothing similar. The Thai government was forced to float the baht due to lack of foreign currency to support its currency peg to the U.S. dollar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Asian_financial_crisis

Watching the Thai baht and the economic news methinks they are again back stopping the baht. 1997 is gone and its 2016 but the old face saving cultural thing still exists today. In 1997 when the IMF looked into the cupboard it was bare. Maybe a check again would be in order. The military government can always point to the strength of the baht and claim a victory.

Easy to check. You are wrong of course.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/foreign-exchange-reserves

[elgordo38]

Today and 1997 have nothing in common. Thailand floated the baht in 1997. Totally different situation. Too far apart to even debate. The USA and Thailand in 1997 again nothing similar. The Thai government was forced to float the baht due to lack of foreign currency to support its currency peg to the U.S. dollar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Asian_financial_crisis

Watching the Thai baht and the economic news methinks they are again back stopping the baht. 1997 is gone and its 2016 but the old face saving cultural thing still exists today. In 1997 when the IMF looked into the cupboard it was bare. Maybe a check again would be in order. The military government can always point to the strength of the baht and claim a victory.

Easy to check. You are wrong of course.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/foreign-exchange-reserves

Governments can make numbers read what they want its a world wide thing. I see the numbers issued were by the the Bank of Thailand sorry I would have a hard time taking their numbers as gospel as same as any facts figures or notions the government puts out. Your rather a judgement individual aren't you. "Your wrong of course" does that make you right? hardly

[Scotwight]

Today and 1997 have nothing in common. Thailand floated the baht in 1997. Totally different situation. Too far apart to even debate. The USA and Thailand in 1997 again nothing similar. The Thai government was forced to float the baht due to lack of foreign currency to support its currency peg to the U.S. dollar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Asian_financial_crisis

Watching the Thai baht and the economic news methinks they are again back stopping the baht. 1997 is gone and its 2016 but the old face saving cultural thing still exists today. In 1997 when the IMF looked into the cupboard it was bare. Maybe a check again would be in order. The military government can always point to the strength of the baht and claim a victory.

Easy to check. You are wrong of course.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/foreign-exchange-reserves

Governments can make numbers read what they want its a world wide thing. I see the numbers issued were by the the Bank of Thailand sorry I would have a hard time taking their numbers as gospel as same as any facts figures or notions the government puts out. Your rather a judgement individual aren't you. "Your wrong of course" does that make you right? hardly

Now it's a major economic web site and the bank of Thailand who are wrong and you are of course right? What are your qualifications to be so much more accurate than the experts who are accepted by major banks and governments all over the world?

In order to have an intelligent conversation we would have to agree to accept some conventions like language and verified information. If you get to discount all of the facts accepted by the rest of the worlds education, banking and governmental institutions there is little we can debate.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Scotwight

[Rimmer]

A reminder that the topic is:

Foreign owned business closings ... worse than ever?

[NanLaew]

Following right behind Rimmer's timely warning on subject matter, I think the discourse so far has mostly indicated that the demise of foreign-owned local businesses runs in parallel with a national decline. Maybe a new thread that specifically addresses the latter would be a better theater and this thread will quickly die a death (will the last farang bar owner to leave, please turn out the lights).

Before we kick this one too much further down the road to closure, one may consider that for all the 'housing start' hooha being expounded by some as a clearly positive indicator of Thailand's unlimited intestinal fortitude, one would really need to be blind to notice that probably more than 80% of these new commercial properties are unoccupied and have been since their completion. They only stand out from the 50% of empty, older commercial properties due to their new paintwork and the fancy external styling of what is fundamentally the same conventional Thai shophouse. Shuttered premises mean the same thing regardless of how new or old it is.

I think quoting anything from Colliers International to lend credence to the argument that an allegedly vibrant Thai real estate market is a key indicator that 'all is well' here is being a wee bit disingenuous.

Those that argue that Chinese money and construction is going to be some sort of linchpin of Thailand's bright future needs to consider that at the start of the year, conservative estimates indicated that in China, about 89 million newly built properties remained empty which roughly equates to around 10 billion square feet of unwanted or otherwise unsaleable real estate. The Chinese can't afford them so who were they built for? Maybe the secret is the Chinese can build unwanted and un-affordable housing in Pattaya faster than the locals can?

[NanLaew]

Quite a long circle jerk we have going on here, post after dreary post.

These seasonal PATTAYA DOOM threads could be much, much shorter and quickly move off the front page to make way for threads that might contain useful information.

Rather than have each Deathwatcher, or ace TVF economist, posture and repeat the same groupthink, why not anoint an authoritative somewhat literate (if such can be found) Head Prophet to speak for all? Not one of the neophytes, of course, deluding himself into thinking he's saying something new. No, seniority should count: some of our old curmudgeons have been crying in the wilderness for decades. Time to recognize at least one long distinguished record of economic forecasting eh?

Maybe give the anointed a special username, such as Anointed One, The Seer, His Importance, The All-Knowing, or simply Tiresias. And a special avatar only He can use, maybe

Then in one post The Seer can simply utter for all, with One Mighty Voice, the seasonal Doom Prophecy; our "real estate agents" can voice some ignorant heresies that can be safely ignored, The Seer having spoken; and we're done within a few posts. I nominate midas!

Hold on a minute while I change hands...

This guy! This is our Leader!

[NanLaew]

On topic! Here's my yardstick of how at least one foreign-owned business is bucking the trend. My favored watering hole is a bar in a shophouse in Soi Post Office that has been there for years. Before the current foreign owner invested in it, it was always a bar. Although below the radar of the lesser-spotted sexpat, the nouveau weekend millionaires, a large number of Russians, most Chinese, and pretty much all Indians, it is surviving on a loyal, regular customer base. Admittedly there are less and less of us regulars each year as age, financial attrition and 'growing up' variously takes out the less healthy of the herd.

On the street of over 150 businesses, the owner can probably count half a dozen businesses that were there when he first opened shop. Otherwise, the churn has gone on unabated for maybe 20 years that he's been there. The reason he can ride out the cyclical dips that he admits get deeper and longer each year, is because about 20 years ago, he forked out around 8 million baht and bought the whole thing new from broken front pavement, crap plumbing, shonky electricals all the way to the leaking roof. Over that time, he has probably spent the best part of 140 baht on maintenance (yes, he's really, really cheap) but apart from this obvious and arguably flawed economy, he pays no rent. Just pays for the water, electric, the internet, ice for the beer and of course the beer itself for which he charges like a raging bull. Rents and greedy landlords are a significant factor when times are good and it's legend that when things go slow, they tend to increase rents which causes those with a thin wallet to pull the pin on any sort of commercial adventure.

The property two doors down traded for 40 million just before last years high season so he'll be doing just fine if the Chinese come calling with their checkbook and take out the whole soi.

[Scotwight]

Following right behind Rimmer's timely warning on subject matter, I think the discourse so far has mostly indicated that the demise of foreign-owned local businesses runs in parallel with a national decline. Maybe a new thread that specifically addresses the latter would be a better theater and this thread will quickly die a death (will the last farang bar owner to leave, please turn out the lights).

Before we kick this one too much further down the road to closure, one may consider that for all the 'housing start' hooha being expounded by some as a clearly positive indicator of Thailand's unlimited intestinal fortitude, one would really need to be blind to notice that probably more than 80% of these new commercial properties are unoccupied and have been since their completion. They only stand out from the 50% of empty, older commercial properties due to their new paintwork and the fancy external styling of what is fundamentally the same conventional Thai shophouse. Shuttered premises mean the same thing regardless of how new or old it is.

I think quoting anything from Colliers International to lend credence to the argument that an allegedly vibrant Thai real estate market is a key indicator that 'all is well' here is being a wee bit disingenuous.

Those that argue that Chinese money and construction is going to be some sort of linchpin of Thailand's bright future needs to consider that at the start of the year, conservative estimates indicated that in China, about 89 million newly built properties remained empty which roughly equates to around 10 billion square feet of unwanted or otherwise unsaleable real estate. The Chinese can't afford them so who were they built for? Maybe the secret is the Chinese can build unwanted and un-affordable housing in Pattaya faster than the locals can?

The downturn in the Chinese economy and crackdown on the grey market drives the money out of China into places like Thailand. Most of the new successful go go employees that I talk to tell me that the majority of their customers are Asian.

[elgordo38]

Sorry to maybe stray off a bit but the best barometer I have is to stand outside my door and watch the cars zoom by 80% of which appear to be brand NEW. Times are not THAT good that the majority of the people can afford a new set of wheels. In my HUMBLE opinion 95% of these are financed to the hilt. Trot out your government numbers. Figures can lie eyes do not.

Edited June 15, 2016 by elgordo38

[Asiantravel]

Following right behind Rimmer's timely warning on subject matter, I think the discourse so far has mostly indicated that the demise of foreign-owned local businesses runs in parallel with a national decline. Maybe a new thread that specifically addresses the latter would be a better theater and this thread will quickly die a death (will the last farang bar owner to leave, please turn out the lights).

Before we kick this one too much further down the road to closure, one may consider that for all the 'housing start' hooha being expounded by some as a clearly positive indicator of Thailand's unlimited intestinal fortitude, one would really need to be blind to notice that probably more than 80% of these new commercial properties are unoccupied and have been since their completion. They only stand out from the 50% of empty, older commercial properties due to their new paintwork and the fancy external styling of what is fundamentally the same conventional Thai shophouse. Shuttered premises mean the same thing regardless of how new or old it is.

I think quoting anything from Colliers International to lend credence to the argument that an allegedly vibrant Thai real estate market is a key indicator that 'all is well' here is being a wee bit disingenuous.

Those that argue that Chinese money and construction is going to be some sort of linchpin of Thailand's bright future needs to consider that at the start of the year, conservative estimates indicated that in China, about 89 million newly built properties remained empty which roughly equates to around 10 billion square feet of unwanted or otherwise unsaleable real estate. The Chinese can't afford them so who were they built for? Maybe the secret is the Chinese can build unwanted and un-affordable housing in Pattaya faster than the locals can?

The downturn in the Chinese economy and crackdown on the grey market drives the money out of China into places like Thailand. Most of the new successful go go employees that I talk to tell me that the majority of their customers are Asian.

just because they frequent go-go establishments doesn't mean they are suddenly whipping out their credit card and also putting a deposit on a condominium.

most of the Chinese in Pattaya wouldn't even be able to find their way to a real estate agent's office unless they were guided by someone with a little flag

and in this article from the National Association of Realtors, Thailand isn't even on the radar screen-not even a mention?

Real Estate Forecast: Where is China Buying?

http://www.realtor.org/articles/real-estate-forecast-where-is-china-buying

[Scotwight]

Sorry to maybe stray off a bit but the best barometer I have is to stand outside my door and watch 80% of the cars going by and noticing they are brand new. Times are not THAT good and in my HUMBLE opinion 99.9% are financed to the hilt. That only my humble opinion. Trot out your government numbers.

Auto sales in Thailand are good. I think Thailand is in the top 10 producers of auto and auto parts world wide. That means jobs and income for tens of thousands of Thai workers. The cars are exported and the foreign currency comes back into the country and deposited in Thai banks which loan out money to buy new cars. 80% of the materiel used to build the cars is manufactured in Thailand.

It was an idea first tried by Henry Ford. He cut the price of cars low enough so his workers could buy cars. Before Ford working men could not afford cars.

[NanLaew]

Following right behind Rimmer's timely warning on subject matter, I think the discourse so far has mostly indicated that the demise of foreign-owned local businesses runs in parallel with a national decline. Maybe a new thread that specifically addresses the latter would be a better theater and this thread will quickly die a death (will the last farang bar owner to leave, please turn out the lights).

Before we kick this one too much further down the road to closure, one may consider that for all the 'housing start' hooha being expounded by some as a clearly positive indicator of Thailand's unlimited intestinal fortitude, one would really need to be blind to notice that probably more than 80% of these new commercial properties are unoccupied and have been since their completion. They only stand out from the 50% of empty, older commercial properties due to their new paintwork and the fancy external styling of what is fundamentally the same conventional Thai shophouse. Shuttered premises mean the same thing regardless of how new or old it is.

I think quoting anything from Colliers International to lend credence to the argument that an allegedly vibrant Thai real estate market is a key indicator that 'all is well' here is being a wee bit disingenuous.

Those that argue that Chinese money and construction is going to be some sort of linchpin of Thailand's bright future needs to consider that at the start of the year, conservative estimates indicated that in China, about 89 million newly built properties remained empty which roughly equates to around 10 billion square feet of unwanted or otherwise unsaleable real estate. The Chinese can't afford them so who were they built for? Maybe the secret is the Chinese can build unwanted and un-affordable housing in Pattaya faster than the locals can?

The downturn in the Chinese economy and crackdown on the grey market drives the money out of China into places like Thailand. Most of the new successful go go employees that I talk to tell me that the majority of their customers are Asian.

You are right about the flood of Chinese money out the back door. They took a drubbing when the Chinese government encouraged everyone to play the shiny, brand new, western-style and government sanctioned local stock market and get rich quick. For a long time a lot of people did. Then when it imploded and the average Chinese investor lost the farm, they took a whole lot of heat for not educating the great unwashed that things can go up but they can also go down. I guess 'read the small print' doesn't translate too well in Mandarin. They fleeced their own people of their life's savings and are now channeling it overseas.

So the exceptional lady that bolsters your argument that Pattaya is bucking the trend? The one you claim moved from Bangkok to Pattaya and his possibly doubling her money? Where does she work?

There's new, successful go go employees every day and there's even some that claim that they moved from Pattaya and Phuket back to Bangkok to make better money. There's even some that say they are doing well when the reality is totally, painfully the opposite. A very common phenomena as you are probably well aware.

Sort of puts the hooker economics barometer in perspective though.

Yes, Asian. The thing is they all look the same don't they? The Japanese, the Korean, the Taiwanese. What's this about the mainland Chinese now?

[Scotwight]

Following right behind Rimmer's timely warning on subject matter, I think the discourse so far has mostly indicated that the demise of foreign-owned local businesses runs in parallel with a national decline. Maybe a new thread that specifically addresses the latter would be a better theater and this thread will quickly die a death (will the last farang bar owner to leave, please turn out the lights).

Before we kick this one too much further down the road to closure, one may consider that for all the 'housing start' hooha being expounded by some as a clearly positive indicator of Thailand's unlimited intestinal fortitude, one would really need to be blind to notice that probably more than 80% of these new commercial properties are unoccupied and have been since their completion. They only stand out from the 50% of empty, older commercial properties due to their new paintwork and the fancy external styling of what is fundamentally the same conventional Thai shophouse. Shuttered premises mean the same thing regardless of how new or old it is.

I think quoting anything from Colliers International to lend credence to the argument that an allegedly vibrant Thai real estate market is a key indicator that 'all is well' here is being a wee bit disingenuous.

Those that argue that Chinese money and construction is going to be some sort of linchpin of Thailand's bright future needs to consider that at the start of the year, conservative estimates indicated that in China, about 89 million newly built properties remained empty which roughly equates to around 10 billion square feet of unwanted or otherwise unsaleable real estate. The Chinese can't afford them so who were they built for? Maybe the secret is the Chinese can build unwanted and un-affordable housing in Pattaya faster than the locals can?

The downturn in the Chinese economy and crackdown on the grey market drives the money out of China into places like Thailand. Most of the new successful go go employees that I talk to tell me that the majority of their customers are Asian.

You are right about the flood of Chinese money out the back door. They took a drubbing when the Chinese government encouraged everyone to play the shiny, brand new, western-style and government sanctioned local stock market and get rich quick. For a long time a lot of people did. Then when it imploded and the average Chinese investor lost the farm, they took a whole lot of heat for not educating the great unwashed that things can go up but they can also go down. I guess 'read the small print' doesn't translate too well in Mandarin. They fleeced their own people of their life's savings and are now channeling it overseas.

So the exceptional lady that bolsters your argument that Pattaya is bucking the trend? The one you claim moved from Bangkok to Pattaya and his possibly doubling her money? Where does she work?

There's new, successful go go employees every day and there's even some that claim that they moved from Pattaya and Phuket back to Bangkok to make better money. There's even some that say they are doing well when the reality is totally, painfully the opposite. A very common phenomena as you are probably well aware.

Sort of puts the hooker economics barometer in perspective though.

Yes, Asian. The thing is they all look the same don't they? The Japanese, the Korean, the Taiwanese. What's this about the mainland Chinese now?

Don't forget Singapore. The lady I know works at a go go that caters to Asian men and is doing fine. I'm sure you know what they call these places google will answer your questions.

[Berty100]

Following right behind Rimmer's timely warning on subject matter, I think the discourse so far has mostly indicated that the demise of foreign-owned local businesses runs in parallel with a national decline. Maybe a new thread that specifically addresses the latter would be a better theater and this thread will quickly die a death (will the last farang bar owner to leave, please turn out the lights).

Before we kick this one too much further down the road to closure, one may consider that for all the 'housing start' hooha being expounded by some as a clearly positive indicator of Thailand's unlimited intestinal fortitude, one would really need to be blind to notice that probably more than 80% of these new commercial properties are unoccupied and have been since their completion. They only stand out from the 50% of empty, older commercial properties due to their new paintwork and the fancy external styling of what is fundamentally the same conventional Thai shophouse. Shuttered premises mean the same thing regardless of how new or old it is.

I think quoting anything from Colliers International to lend credence to the argument that an allegedly vibrant Thai real estate market is a key indicator that 'all is well' here is being a wee bit disingenuous.

Those that argue that Chinese money and construction is going to be some sort of linchpin of Thailand's bright future needs to consider that at the start of the year, conservative estimates indicated that in China, about 89 million newly built properties remained empty which roughly equates to around 10 billion square feet of unwanted or otherwise unsaleable real estate. The Chinese can't afford them so who were they built for? Maybe the secret is the Chinese can build unwanted and un-affordable housing in Pattaya faster than the locals can?

The downturn in the Chinese economy and crackdown on the grey market drives the money out of China into places like Thailand. Most of the new successful go go employees that I talk to tell me that the majority of their customers are Asian.

You are right about the flood of Chinese money out the back door. They took a drubbing when the Chinese government encouraged everyone to play the shiny, brand new, western-style and government sanctioned local stock market and get rich quick. For a long time a lot of people did. Then when it imploded and the average Chinese investor lost the farm, they took a whole lot of heat for not educating the great unwashed that things can go up but they can also go down. I guess 'read the small print' doesn't translate too well in Mandarin. They fleeced their own people of their life's savings and are now channeling it overseas.

So the exceptional lady that bolsters your argument that Pattaya is bucking the trend? The one you claim moved from Bangkok to Pattaya and his possibly doubling her money? Where does she work?

There's new, successful go go employees every day and there's even some that claim that they moved from Pattaya and Phuket back to Bangkok to make better money. There's even some that say they are doing well when the reality is totally, painfully the opposite. A very common phenomena as you are probably well aware.

Sort of puts the hooker economics barometer in perspective though.

Yes, Asian. The thing is they all look the same don't they? The Japanese, the Korean, the Taiwanese. What's this about the mainland Chinese now?

Don't forget Singapore. The lady I know works at a go go that caters to Asian men and is doing fine. I'm sure you know what they call these places google will answer your questions.

Oh, now the " Most of the new successful go go employees that I talk to tell me that the majority of their customers are Asian. " has changed to " The one and only lady I know works at a go go that caters to Asian men". No wonder that their clients are mostly Asian, same as Happy a gogo will have not a single Asian, because they are not allowed inside.

Your credibility has just gone out of the window.

[Bernard Flint]

There are far far too many non thai in the tourist hotspots. When 50% are gone the survivors will flourish. Guys go to Pattaya, fall in lover with bar girl nok, then buy bar so tilak can bring the money in, with her vast bar experience. Of course this is a road to ruin and bad health.

[onemorechang]

You are right about the flood of Chinese money out the back door. They took a drubbing when the Chinese government encouraged everyone to play the shiny, brand new, western-style and government sanctioned local stock market and get rich quick. For a long time a lot of people did. Then when it imploded and the average Chinese investor lost the farm, they took a whole lot of heat for not educating the great unwashed that things can go up but they can also go down. I guess 'read the small print' doesn't translate too well in Mandarin. They fleeced their own people of their life's savings and are now channeling it overseas.

+ 1

[pmugghc]

Just one piece of anecdotal data: I talked to a guy working in one of the top-end hotels/resorts in Pattaya. Last weekend they had 93% occupancy. Mid week it was 65%. The high-season was the best they ever had. But it seemed to me most were families from Bkk.

[Scotwight]

Don't forget Singapore. The lady I know works at a go go that caters to Asian men and is doing fine. I'm sure you know what they call these places google will answer your questions.

Oh, now the " Most of the new successful go go employees that I talk to tell me that the majority of their customers are Asian. " has changed to " The one and only lady I know works at a go go that caters to Asian men". No wonder that their clients are mostly Asian, same as Happy a gogo will have not a single Asian, because they are not allowed inside.

Your credibility has just gone out of the window.

I don't see why. It only takes a stroll down Walking street to see the rise In Asian tourists and decline in Western tourists. It matters not if I know 100 or 10 bargirls the fact remains that there are not a plethora of empty go go bars on Walking street. It is still anecdotal evidence. Is Pattaya a ghost town? No. It is still busy and has traffic jams every day and this is not the high season. Pattaya is changing. The Brits are going home. OK so what else is new?

[Berty100]

Don't forget Singapore. The lady I know works at a go go that caters to Asian men and is doing fine. I'm sure you know what they call these places google will answer your questions.

Oh, now the " Most of the new successful go go employees that I talk to tell me that the majority of their customers are Asian. " has changed to " The one and only lady I know works at a go go that caters to Asian men". No wonder that their clients are mostly Asian, same as Happy a gogo will have not a single Asian, because they are not allowed inside.

Your credibility has just gone out of the window.

I don't see why. It only takes a stroll down Walking street to see the rise In Asian tourists and decline in Western tourists. It matters not if I know 100 or 10 bargirls the fact remains that there are not a plethora of empty go go bars on Walking street. It is still anecdotal evidence. Is Pattaya a ghost town? No. It is still busy and has traffic jams every day and this is not the high season. Pattaya is changing. The Brits are going home. OK so what else is new?

Indeed there are plenty of Asians in walking street, but they are on the street but not inside the gogo's.

And if you think the gogo's are filled up, think again, because they are definitely not.

For many years I know one of the owners of the biggest disco in walking street, and last month he told me they had experienced the worst high season EVER.

On Sukhumvit it's every day traffic jam, and will last for the next 8 years or so because they gonna build 2 more tunnels, but that doesn't mean there are more tourists.

These days the Thai middle class is growing and car finances are at a historic low, so plenty of Thais who couldn't afford before buying a car now, and clogging the streets because they don't know how to drive.

[Scotwight]

I don't see why. It only takes a stroll down Walking street to see the rise In Asian tourists and decline in Western tourists. It matters not if I know 100 or 10 bargirls the fact remains that there are not a plethora of empty go go bars on Walking street. It is still anecdotal evidence. Is Pattaya a ghost town? No. It is still busy and has traffic jams every day and this is not the high season. Pattaya is changing. The Brits are going home. OK so what else is new?

Indeed there are plenty of Asians in walking street, but they are on the street but not inside the gogo's.

And if you think the gogo's are filled up, think again, because they are definitely not.

For many years I know one of the owners of the biggest disco in walking street, and last month he told me they had experienced the worst high season EVER.

On Sukhumvit it's every day traffic jam, and will last for the next 8 years or so because they gonna build 2 more tunnels, but that doesn't mean there are more tourists.

These days the Thai middle class is growing and car finances are at a historic low, so plenty of Thais who couldn't afford before buying a car now, and clogging the streets because they don't know how to drive.

I believe the cash back scheme was the largest incentive for auto purchases and that stopped two years ago and car purchases by Thais are down, If the middle class is growing as you suggest that means the economy is doing well.

If no one was in the discos they would be closed and they are not. If you know Pattaya you know that marginal businesses close in the low season rather than stay open and lose more money.

Just out of curiosity why would a bad driver clog the street more than a good driver. A car is a car?

[Berty100]

I don't see why. It only takes a stroll down Walking street to see the rise In Asian tourists and decline in Western tourists. It matters not if I know 100 or 10 bargirls the fact remains that there are not a plethora of empty go go bars on Walking street. It is still anecdotal evidence. Is Pattaya a ghost town? No. It is still busy and has traffic jams every day and this is not the high season. Pattaya is changing. The Brits are going home. OK so what else is new?

Indeed there are plenty of Asians in walking street, but they are on the street but not inside the gogo's.

And if you think the gogo's are filled up, think again, because they are definitely not.

For many years I know one of the owners of the biggest disco in walking street, and last month he told me they had experienced the worst high season EVER.

On Sukhumvit it's every day traffic jam, and will last for the next 8 years or so because they gonna build 2 more tunnels, but that doesn't mean there are more tourists.

These days the Thai middle class is growing and car finances are at a historic low, so plenty of Thais who couldn't afford before buying a car now, and clogging the streets because they don't know how to drive.

I believe the cash back scheme was the largest incentive for auto purchases and that stopped two years ago and car purchases by Thais are down, If the middle class is growing as you suggest that means the economy is doing well.

If no one was in the discos they would be closed and they are not. If you know Pattaya you know that marginal businesses close in the low season rather than stay open and lose more money.

Just out of curiosity why would a bad driver clog the street more than a good driver. A car is a car?

I'll stop replying to you because you talk like an ***** , and I'm not the only one on this tread who's aware of that.

I didn't say the disco's were empty, I said the biggest disco in walking street had its worst high season EVER.

A middle class doesn't grow from today on tomorrow, it takes years, and the middle class of today have earned their moneys years ago when the economy was still good. Since 2014 it only has gone downwards.

They buy more cars because finances are at record lows and a granted to every one who is able to sign a contract.

And if you don't understand why people who don't know how to drive clog the streets, then you just confirmed my first sentence.

Bye, bye

Edited June 15, 2016 by Berty100

[Scotwight]

I don't see why. It only takes a stroll down Walking street to see the rise In Asian tourists and decline in Western tourists. It matters not if I know 100 or 10 bargirls the fact remains that there are not a plethora of empty go go bars on Walking street. It is still anecdotal evidence. Is Pattaya a ghost town? No. It is still busy and has traffic jams every day and this is not the high season. Pattaya is changing. The Brits are going home. OK so what else is new?

Indeed there are plenty of Asians in walking street, but they are on the street but not inside the gogo's.

And if you think the gogo's are filled up, think again, because they are definitely not.

For many years I know one of the owners of the biggest disco in walking street, and last month he told me they had experienced the worst high season EVER.

On Sukhumvit it's every day traffic jam, and will last for the next 8 years or so because they gonna build 2 more tunnels, but that doesn't mean there are more tourists.

These days the Thai middle class is growing and car finances are at a historic low, so plenty of Thais who couldn't afford before buying a car now, and clogging the streets because they don't know how to drive.

I believe the cash back scheme was the largest incentive for auto purchases and that stopped two years ago and car purchases by Thais are down, If the middle class is growing as you suggest that means the economy is doing well.

If no one was in the discos they would be closed and they are not. If you know Pattaya you know that marginal businesses close in the low season rather than stay open and lose more money.

Just out of curiosity why would a bad driver clog the street more than a good driver. A car is a car?

I'll stop replying to you because you talk like an ***** , and I'm not the only one on this tread who's aware of that.

I didn't say the disco's were empty, I said the biggest disco in walking street had its worst high season EVER.

A middle class doesn't grow from today on tomorrow, it takes years, and the middle class of today have earned their moneys years ago when the economy was still good. Since 2014 it only has gone downwards.

They buy more cars because finances are at record lows and a granted to every one who is able to sign a contract.

And if you don't understand why people who don't know how to drive clog the streets, then you just confirmed my first sentence.

Bye, bye

Why not google before you post. You are wrong again. Sales of Toyota (and all other makes), also the biggest carmaker in Thailand, fell 9 percent in 2015, extending a three-year slump after the country ended subsidies for first-time car buyers, said Tanada.

Thai auto sales are down because the subsidies ended and low interest rates didn't boost sales.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-22/thailand-auto-sales-to-decline-for-fourth-year-on-china-slowdown

A car is a car. Stopped at a traffic light good and bad drivers are the same. There is no difference in congestion between good and bad drivers the car still takes up the same amount of space.

The middle class is the middle class based on lasts month not last year. The average Thai does not have 6 months let alone a year of savings to get him through a rough time.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Rimmer
Fonts corrected

[morrobay]

Things are not really looking that good for Thailand Scott.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/exports

[Scotwight]

Things are not really looking that good for Thailand Scott.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/exports

You tell me which country would you rather be? Your website.

Country A

GDP Growth Rate 0.9 %

Unemployment Rate 1.04 %

Inflation Rate 0.46 %

Interest Rate 1.5 %

Balance of Trade +721 USD Million

Government Debt to GDP 45.7 %

Country B

GDP Growth Rate 0.4 %

Unemployment Rate 5 %

Inflation Rate 0.3 %

Interest Rate 0.5 %

Balance of Trade -4665 USD Millions

Government Debt to GDP 89.2 %

[Asiantravel]

Things are not really looking that good for Thailand Scott.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/exports

things can never look good in ANY country until the following issue is resolved

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

[elgordo38]

Things are not really looking that good for Thailand Scott.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/exports

things can never look good in ANY country until the following issue is resolved

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

That sir is a run away train. Batten down the hatches the brakes are shot the engineer is asleep and there is a cliff ahead.