(USA topic) FBAR deadline for tax year 2015

[Jingthing]

I had read the deadline had changed for tax year 2015 FBAR filing but I found conflicting info online.

Anyway I had thought it might be April 15 2016 which is earlier than previous FBAR deadlines.

Then I read it was based on your personal IRS deadline. In other words if you're living abroad your IRS deadline is automatically 2 months later.

So I had thought perhaps that meant if you had filed an extension until October for IRS your FBAR would also be extended until October.

Nope. Going online to file it says the deadline is June 30 with no extensions possible.

Anyway if you need to file FBAR for 2015 get to it!

The penalties are atrocious.

Anyway

[glamont002]

The FBAR for 2015 is due June 30, 2016.

The new due dates are for the 2016 FBAR. Due April 15, 2017 if you are in the US and if you file for income tax extension FBAR also extended. If you are out of the US due date is same as tax return June 15. Can file extension for both to October 15.

[helpisgood]

It's pretty easy to do and I am not a techy.

If you haven't done it before, the second page that you scroll down to is what would offline be the last one (it includes the electronic "signature" of the filer). So, you may want to skip it until after scrolling farther down to fill out the applicable other page(s) first.

Also, they want the bank balances in USD. If you do not already know, you can use Google to easily find the IRS's table of exchange rates.

Anyway, compliance is not difficult (maybe requiring a little more patience and attention to detail for some of us), so it would be silly to blow the deadline.

[MyFriend You]

Am I wrong?? I seem to remember if you have less than $10K in the bank a FBAR is not necessary. I filed because I have more but would like to know..........Thanx in advance.

[ubonjoe]

Am I wrong?? I seem to remember if you have less than $10K in the bank a FBAR is not necessary. I filed because I have more but would like to know..........Thanx in advance.

You have to file if you have a total of more than $10,000 in foreign banks.

[helpisgood]

They provide a helpful table answering the 10K threshold question. I advise reading it carefully. They have a specific definition of being over or under. Read it and you'll see.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/comparison-of-form-8938-and-fbar-requirements

Edited June 10, 2016 by helpisgood

[MyFriend You]

Am I wrong?? I seem to remember if you have less than $10K in the bank a FBAR is not necessary. I filed because I have more but would like to know..........Thanx in advance.

You have to file if you have a total of more than $10,000 in foreign banks.

Thanx Ubon Joe, always helpful.

I live part time in Vietnam and part time in Thailand - you would be surprised at the bar stool lawyers that pass around "If you have lived overseas more than (**) years you don't have to file income tax returns anymore" they're in for a big surprise if they ever have t return to the States.

[soisanuk]

The FBAR report is sent to Fincen which is a part of the Treasury Department, but not part of IRS - it is required by US Money Laundering statutes (the reports by banks of cash transactions over $10k or the report made to customs if entering or leaving with over $10k (cash or negotiable instruments, e.g. Traveler Checks) also goes to Fincen for their database). Requirements are made by Fincen, not IRS. The Foreign Financial Asset reporting is a separate law and it is administered by the IRS - it is due, if you fall within the thresholds, with the filing of your income tax return - normally April 15, but for those residing outside US can be automatically extended to June 15 - details found here https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-reminds-those-with-foreign-assets-of-u-s-tax-obligations-2015.

People often get the two confused.

[Jingthing]

OK, thanks for the comments.

First things first, if you do need to file and you haven't filed for tax year 2015, go here and meet the June 30 deadline:

http://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/NoRegFBARFiler.html

For NEXT year, frankly I'm still confused.

I understand there is an automatic extension if living abroad for IRS. No action needed. If you want to extend till October, you must file for an extension to IRS.

That's IRS.

Do those things AUTOMATICALLY flow to FBAR filing?

In other words, next year if you file with a foreign address, you can wait until June 15 (instead of the standard April 15) without taking action of filing for a separate extension?

Also, for the October extension. If you get the IRS extensions, does it automatically flow to your FBAR extension, or is that a SEPARATE action needed?

Of course for next year, filing by APRIL 15 regardless of your IRS extension status would make those questions irrelevant.

[charliebadenhop]

Sorry to be dense...

But next year...

We need to file by?

June 30 still ok, or not?

[Jingthing]

Sorry to be dense...

But next year...

We need to file by?

June 30 still ok, or not?

No.

The regular deadline for next year's filing (tax year 2016) will be APRIL 15.

My questions are about how that is extended for those living abroad (two months until June 15, NOT June 30) and those filing IRS extensions until October.

As stated the FBAR filing and IRS are separate but apparently they have decided that the regular deadline for FBAR will be the same as for IRS.

We don't really need to worry about this until next year.

Hopefully details will be on the website I posted. But I think, better pay attention and don't be late!

Edited June 10, 2016 by Jingthing

[fittobethaied]

In 2015 I took my last distribution from my IRA and I have no other income now that would be reported by other entities to the IRS. My only income now is my SS benefits, so for all practical purposes I will not be required to file any more tax returns in the future since I am waaaaaay under the taxable income threshold.

Sometime last year when I was researching the FBAR requirements I came across some official instructions in an IRS publication that indicated that if one is not required to file an income tax return, then that person is also exempt from filing the FBAR. 2016 will be my first year for having more than $10,000 in my Thai bank account. I really don't want to file the FBAR if I don't have too, but now I absolutely cannot find the source where I read last year that said I would be exempt from filing even if I have more than $10,000. in a foreign account.

Therefore, has anyone else come across that information and can confirm that this is true?

[skatewash]

The regular deadline for next year's filing (tax year 2016) will be APRIL 15.

My questions are about how that is extended for those living abroad (two months until June 15, NOT June 30) and those filing IRS extensions until October.

As stated the FBAR filing and IRS are separate but apparently they have decided that the regular deadline for FBAR will be the same as for IRS.

We don't really need to worry about this until next year.

Hopefully details will be on the website I posted. But I think, better pay attention and don't be late!

Interesting questions regarding how to obtain FBAR extensions starting in tax year 2016. I wasn't able to find definitive answers to those questions at this time.

My guess, until FinCen comes up with definitive guidance, is that if you claim your living abroad deadline extension for filing your IRS tax return you would get the same extension for the "unrelated" FBAR filing deadline. Likewise, If you filed for a full 6-month extension for the IRS you would get the same extension for your FBAR filing.

The interesting question is what happens when you are required to file an FBAR but not required to file an IRS tax return. The requirements are independent, you are not necessarily required to file one if you file the other. How do you get your extension of FBAR when you don't apply for the automatic 2 month by filing your IRS tax return, or how do your get your 6 month extension of FBAR when you don't request a 6 month extension of your IRS tax return?

My guess in this case is that since the FBAR lists your address, if it is a foreign address you would qualify automatically based on that fact alone for the 2 month FBAR extension.

How this would work in the case of needing a 6 month extension for your FBAR when you don't intend to file an IRS tax return (because you don't have to) is unclear. I guess the possibilities are three: 1) you can't; 2) you can, but only if you request a 6 month IRS tax return extension; or 3) you can, but you have to somehow request the extension through some as of yet unknown mechanism from FinCen itself.

I guess the answers to these question will become clearer in the future in the form of new guidance from FinCen.

As a practical matter, I have all the information necessary to file my FBAR for the previous tax year on January 1st, so meeting the new deadline shouldn't pose much of a problem for me. I routinely file my FBAR well before my IRS tax return every year. Possibly the circumstances for others are more complicated, although as the FBAR is just a report of your asset balances in various different foreign financial accounts for the previous year it seems unlikely to me.

[soisanuk]

I guess the answers to these question will become clearer in the future in the form of new guidance from FinCen.

It appears that the confusion relates to when to file the current report due June 30, 2016 (for year ended December 31, 2015) vs the report due in 2017 (for year ended December 31, 2016). Fincen website (https://www.fincen.gov/forms/bsa_forms/fbar.html) for filing the FBAR states:

FILING DEADLINE June 30, 2016 NO EXTENSIONS AVAILABLE

I could not find anything on their website regarding the report due in 2017; but this website (http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=64f54c39-1c9b-483f-b6f3-6d24126eeb3a) comments on the change of due date to April 15, 2017 and notes that It is unclear how a taxpayer will request an extension to file an FBAR.

[Jingthing]

I have never heard that not being required to file with IRS which is common has any relationship at all to FBAR filing requirements. In fact that sounds ridiculous.

[taxout]

It's Form 8938 that has the "Return Not Required" filing exception:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8938.pdf

And if you saved a pre-signed copy of last year's FBAR, then this year's is much easier than before, since you can simply update the old form for 2015: the version hasn't changed. Next year, if filing dates change, there will presumably be a new version.

Edited June 10, 2016 by taxout

[Jingthing]

That might confuse people.

Form 8938 and FBAR are NOT the same thing!

http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Form-8938-vs-FBAR.pdf

[taxout]

Of course they're not the same. I give folks on this particular branch some credit for tax literacy.

[Jingthing]

Of course they're not the same. I give folks on this particular branch some credit for tax literacy.

Don't make any assumptions.

This stuff is complicated.

Another poster suggested he thought that filing FBAR was not required (if otherwise required) if during the tax year in question you aren't required to file an IRS income tax return (typically because income under reporting threshold). I doubted that.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Jingthing

[NancyL]

Am I wrong?? I seem to remember if you have less than $10K in the bank a FBAR is not necessary. I filed because I have more but would like to know..........Thanx in advance.

You have to file if you have a total of more than $10,000 in foreign banks.

Thanx Ubon Joe, always helpful.

I live part time in Vietnam and part time in Thailand - you would be surprised at the bar stool lawyers that pass around "If you have lived overseas more than (**) years you don't have to file income tax returns anymore" they're in for a big surprise if they ever have t return to the States.

And their heirs may be in for a big surprise if they go to claim any assets, like bank or investment accounts that the expat still has in the U.S.

[Jingthing]

OK, let's settle this question definitively, if possible.

IF you aren't required to file an IRS tax form for a specific year (usually because of low income) does that mean you don't need to file an FBAR for that year even if you would OTHERWISE be required to file an FBAR?

Yes or no?

[soisanuk]

OK, let's settle this question definitively, if possible.

IF you aren't required to file an IRS tax form for a specific year (usually because of low income) does that mean you don't need to file an FBAR for that year even if you would OTHERWISE be required to file an FBAR?

Yes or no?

Yes, you have to file. IRS website (https://www.irs.gov/businesses/comparison-of-form-8938-and-fbar-requirements) states (Form 8398 is filed with income tax return, but has different reporting thresholds:

The new Form 8938 filing requirement does not replace or otherwise affect a taxpayer’s obligation to file FinCEN Form 114 (Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts). Unlike Form 8938, the FBAR (FinCEN Form 114) is not filed with the IRS. It must be filed directly with the office of Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN), a bureau of the Department of the Treasury, separate from the IRS. Individuals must check the requirements and relevant reporting thresholds of each form and determine if they should file Form 8938 or FinCEN Form 114, or both.

The instructions for FBAR lists who must file and any exemptions - not being required to file a US income tax return is not one of them.

The IRS website (https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/report-of-foreign-bank-and-financial-accounts-fbar Who Must File an FBAR) has further information:

United States persons are required to file an FBAR if:

1. the United States person had a financial interest in or signature authority over at least one financial account located outside of the United States; and

2. the aggregate value of all foreign financial accounts exceeded $10,000 at any time during the calendar year reported.

. . .

Note: The recently enacted Surface Transportation and Veterans Health Care Choice Improvement Act of 2015 changes the standard FBAR due date to April 15 beginning with the 2016 calendar year reports, which are due in 2017. The FBAR deadline for calendar year 2015 reports remains June 30, 2016 (with no extensions allowed).

. . .

FBAR Assistance

Help in completing the FBAR is available Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. Eastern Time, at 866-270-0733 (toll-free inside the U.S.) or 313-234-6146 (not toll-free, for callers outside the U.S.). Questions regarding the FBAR can be sent to [email protected].

If still confused, you can always contact them as noted above for assistance.

[GinBoy2]

Regardless of income, under/over the threshold, file an FBAR and 1040. May cost you $40 to file taxes even if you don't owe a penny, but better safe than sorry in my book.

At the end of the day, we all need a passport, and unlike the super rich that can can away with murder, most of us normal folks need to be careful

[taxout]

That's also my view. Don't make waves by taking yourself out of the system, even you're legally entitled to do it. Remember too, that the statute of limitations for tax purposes runs from the day you file your return, so if you don't file it never expires.

[Jingthing]

I agree file at least to let them know you're still breathing. But I think more so as an expat. In truth the IRS really doesn't want you to file if you're not required.

[taxout]

It's just not relevant what the IRS "wants." Protect yourself, and the best way to do that is file. Indeed, a filing that's technically not required is usually called a "protective filing."

E.g., think of the hassle you'll go through if the IRS decides it wants to know why you've dropped out of the system.

[GinBoy2]

It's just not relevant what the IRS "wants." Protect yourself, and the best way to do that is file. Indeed, a filing that's technically not required is usually called a "protective filing."

E.g., think of the hassle you'll go through if the IRS decides it wants to know why you've dropped out of the system.

Very much agree with that last statement. The IRS has boundless resources to investigate/pursue us, most of us do not. That's why as I stated previously I always file...call it the prophylactic for your own government!

[charliebadenhop]

I have lived outside of the US for more than 30 years now.

About 2 years ago I filed my first US return in about 28 years.

And stated that I was currently retired.

All fine with them.

And as long as I don’t make more than $13,000 in a year, no need to file anymore.

So said my US tax attorney.

cb

[Jingthing]

I have lived outside of the US for more than 30 years now.

About 2 years ago I filed my first US return in about 28 years.

And stated that I was currently retired.

All fine with them.

And as long as I don’t make more than $13,000 in a year, no need to file anymore.

So said my US tax attorney.

cb

Yeah, you're probably OK as long as you don't have any triggering events that would make you want to/need to file.

For example selling stocks, if you don't file, that's a gross amount the IRS might peg on you rather than the PROFIT part of it.

Also assuming you weren't required to file FBAR for any of those years.

[charliebadenhop]

I never filed FBAR until two years ago, when my accountant said "You better start."

Now I file every year.