Ex-thai Leader Says Australia Ignorant

[stumonster]

Ex-Thai leader says Australia ignorant

From correspondents in Bangkok

November 12, 2006

A FORMER Thai prime minister has accused Australian politicians of being ignorant and uninformed about Asia, just days before the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) meeting starts in Vietnam.

Thailand Development Research Institute (TDRI) chairman Anand Panyarachun said western politicians, including those from Australia and New Zealand, had failed to understand the country's recent military takeover in a bloodless coup on September 19.

"You say that Australia is an Asian nation and it should be well aware of what's going on in other Asian countries," Anand said.

"But this (coup) is a case in point - you're not Asians yet, you have an entirely different mentality - you belong to the Western group."

His comments echo similar views held by Malaysia's former prime minister Mahathir Mohamad who earlier dismissed Australia's efforts to move closer towards Asia in the 1990s.

Prime Minister John Howard and Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, both preparing to visit the region ahead of the APEC meeting in Hanoi this week, have criticised the Thai military's takeover in which Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra was overthrown.

Thaksin had been accused of muzzling the media, abuse of power and corruption as well as human rights abuses in suppressing a Muslim insurgency in Southern Thailand and the deaths of more than 2,000 people during a drugs crackdown in 2003.

"That you think, whenever there is a coup - the generals took power it would be like a coup on Africa or in Latin America," Anand said.

"It would be followed by sectarian violence, it would be followed by this or that ... and not many people were able to hear that not a single shot was fired - there was no damage to property.

"It's politically correct - you know the attitude - to say that 'coup d'etat is no good'. Practically, some of them understand ... some of them (diplomats) who are stationed here, but somehow their reports were not read in the capitals.

"In a way, I would view those Western leaders - be they American, Australian, New Zealanders - they are uninformed people. They're ignorant, they're completely ignorant," Anand said.

full story here

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...75-1702,00.html

[Pink Mist]

why do people even bother to quote howard and downer they are both clowns.

[aussiestyle1983]

Yes, he is correct, us Aussies do belong to the westerners group because we are westerners, not Asians.

Edited November 12, 2006 by aussiestyle1983

[Old Croc]

Geographically Australia is part of Asia, but the ethnicity is derived mainly from western countries and thus it relates more to that culture. Things will change in time as all countries become more global in outlook, but among the biggest difficulties to this are the racist attitudes of some Asian countries and their current and former leaders (including the guy mentioned above). Their refusal to allow Australia full membership in various asian economic summits is an example of these shortsighted and even racist attitudes.

The situation is not helped by the idiot Bush-aphiles currently in charge of Australia, but there is fault on all sides.

APEC is due again shortly and I, for one, am eagerly looking forward to the colourful shirts the leaders will sheepish model for the world media. The economic outcomes rate less attention.

[Chang_paarp]

Yes Australians are from a western mind set, but ignoring us or trying to isolate us is not the answer either. Try to communicate with us. A bit like the former Malaysian PM Mahathir Mohamad didn't.

I like the part of Paul Keating's recalcitrent put down that was not reported. "Mahathir has trouble running an economy less than the size of Victoria".

We are not ignorant, just some of our politicians are not in touch with the real world. I think this a common phenomena across the globe.

[Pink Mist]

Yes Australians are from a western mind set, but ignoring us or trying to isolate us is not the answer either. Try to communicate with us. A bit like the former Malaysian PM Mahathir Mohamad didn't.

I like the part of Paul Keating's recalcitrent put down that was not reported. "Mahathir has trouble running an economy less than the size of Victoria".

We are not ignorant, just some of our politicians are not in touch with the real world. I think this a common phenomena across the globe.

here here

[GuestHouse]

Their refusal to allow Australia full membership in various asian economic summits is an example of these shortsighted and even racist attitudes.

It should be remember that Thaksin played a significant and active part in excluding Australia from Asian. Perhaps more because he feared Australian companies might move on his golden nest eggs Telecoms and TV.

It should also be remembered that Thaksin in now a private, and exiled, citizen.

--

On where Australia's future is. I recall listening to Paul Keating discussing why Australia needs to move its focus to Asia. I was in Oz at the time and it was the first time I had heard the full argument, back in Britain I'd only heard the standard 'turn coats' bleating.

I think the best way to look at it is Australia has a huge advantage - All the advantages of Western organization, law, education and the huge advantage of location on the rim of Asia.

Of course the likes of Thaksin fear that.

[Pink Mist]

I think we are more Asian than a lot of us think

[chuchok]

How many Asians are there living in oz?

[Pink Mist]

not as many as in Pakuranga

[Sing_Sling]

I always find it quite funny to hear xenophobic and ill-informed Asian leaders comment on Westerners and western countries . . . partly because they can do so without being blasted by their own and partly because they believe their own propaganda.

I find them quite inane and boring . . .

Let's see:

"You say that Australia is an Asian nation and it should be well aware of what's going on in other Asian countries," Anand said.

"But this (coup) is a case in point - you're not Asians yet, you have an entirely different mentality - you belong to the Western group."

So that means that as soon as we see the military overthrow an elected government or a corrupt military regime keep a regime critic under house arrest for decades - - - we can be Asian as well????

Excellent!

[Pink Mist]

I always find it quite funny to hear xenophobic and ill-informed Asian leaders comment on Westerners and western countries . . . partly because they can do so without being blasted by their own and partly because they believe their own propaganda.

I find them quite inane and boring . . .

Let's see:

"You say that Australia is an Asian nation and it should be well aware of what's going on in other Asian countries," Anand said.

"But this (coup) is a case in point - you're not Asians yet, you have an entirely different mentality - you belong to the Western group."

So that means that as soon as we see the military overthrow an elected government or a corrupt military regime keep a regime critic under house arrest for decades - - - we can be Asian as well????

Excellent!

you have a point there

[chuchok]

not as many as in Pakuranga

You know much too much about Aotearoa......

[Pink Mist]

Thought you knew why Chucky

[mijan24]

why do people even bother to quote howard and downer they are both clowns.

Bronco to be more correct Howard is the ring master and Downer "The Clown of all Clowns" you only have to look at his comments immed post coup - AD demands Thailand hold "immediate elections" only rhree members of the EC were left (about to be sacked too) can't the man (AD) get some up todate info from his team of staffers before he opens his Gob?

[chuchok]

Thought you knew why Chucky

Yeah I did...just taking the piss.

[Pink Mist]

Thought you knew why Chucky

Yeah I did...just taking the piss.

typical sheeplover

[ColPyat]

Ex-Thai leader says Australia ignorant

From correspondents in Bangkok

November 12, 2006

"You say that Australia is an Asian nation and it should be well aware of what's going on in other Asian countries," Anand said.

"But this (coup) is a case in point - you're not Asians yet, you have an entirely different mentality - you belong to the Western group."

Interesting.

In which category would Anand then put the many Thais that openly have criticised the coup, people such as Giles and John Ungpakorn, the people of the September 19th network, and countless other groups and people? Are they then, according to this logic, not "Asian" either?

Sad to hear such xenophobic crap from such a respected person. This does not bode well for Thailand's future. It seems that we exprience presently a huge shift towards the extreme conservative nationalist corner here in Thailand.

[samran]

Their refusal to allow Australia full membership in various asian economic summits is an example of these shortsighted and even racist attitudes.

It should be remember that Thaksin played a significant and active part in excluding Australia from Asian. Perhaps more because he feared Australian companies might move on his golden nest eggs Telecoms and TV.

It should also be remembered that Thaksin in now a private, and exiled, citizen.

--

On where Australia's future is. I recall listening to Paul Keating discussing why Australia needs to move its focus to Asia. I was in Oz at the time and it was the first time I had heard the full argument, back in Britain I'd only heard the standard 'turn coats' bleating.

I think the best way to look at it is Australia has a huge advantage - All the advantages of Western organization, law, education and the huge advantage of location on the rim of Asia.

Of course the likes of Thaksin fear that.

Is it all a bit of huff and puff from a past politician? Or, could it be that his quotes were taken out of context? I'd dare say the latter.

Fact: Australian politicians, did make the wrong noises in public about the coup..."this is bad for democracy" etc etc.....but really, what were they to say? "Oh yeah, we thought that Thaksin was a complete f*&kwit, we are glad he is gone and this coup was a really good thing"...I mean really, governments really don't say those things as it sets a bad precedence elsewhere (unless your name is Saddam Hussain!). Given that these words are the ones on the public record, the former Thai PM is right to an extent.

Fact: Thailand diplomatically, always has been a huge supporter of Australian participation in Asian economic forums. Along with Singapore, Thailand was Australia's closest political ally in the region. It always has been.

Fact: Thailand and Australia concluded a free trade agreement in 2002. Although ASEAN has an agreement to lower tariffs to less than 5% for trade between members, its effectiveness is minimal given the plethora of non-tariff barriers. In contrast, while the Australian-Thai FTA is by no means comprehensive, it covers many areas that are yet to exist in any ASEAN agreement, things such as foreign ownership restrictions, work rights for its respective citizens, competition law...etc etc.

The fact that the FTA happened on Thaksins watch, says something to me at least. He may have been trying to emulate Lee Kwan Yu at home, but he was not trying to make himself into the new Mahatir as far as foreign policy.

Fact: Australia and NZ (combined economies bigger than ASEAN) are in the process for negotiating a free trade pact beteeen the two regional blocs (Australia and NZ have their own mini-EU already).

Now that Mahatir is gone (and with it his ASEAN veto), I'd say that you'll be seeing alot more active Australian involvement in Asia over the coming years.

[sibeymai]

Australia has quite a history of "backing the wrong horse" in Asia which can only indicate serious problems with what's coming from the Foreign Affairs beaureacrats in Canberra.

Actually, Canberra doesn't understand the rest of Australia so how can they possibly understand Asia ?

Not only does Canberra get it wrong, but they continue to keep their head in the sand for years. How else could East Timor get to the stage of civil war without Canberra ignoring reality and supporting Jakarta for decades ?

Thirty years on what is Canberra doing now ? Signing defence agreements with Indonesia agreeing to supress independence activists in West Papua. Has absolutely nothing been learned from the East Timor lesson ?

Is Australia really that s#*t scared of Indonesian terrorists that they will kiss arse so easily ? Add Fiji and the Solomons to the list in the near future.

As for our future relations with Asia, it really doesn;t matter what Asians think about Australia. there's only one source of abundant and cheap raw materials anywhere near Asia, and China knows that too well. Don't hear them bad mouthing Australia do you ? They know who's buttering their bread.

[ColPyat]

Thirty years on what is Canberra doing now ? Signing defence agreements with Indonesia agreeing to supress independence activists in West Papua. Has absolutely nothing been learned from the East Timor lesson ?

So far the only East Timor lessons are that firstly, the place should have never been given the option for independence, but only been given wider automony, and secondly, that if the UN supports independence it should have been prepared to stay for the full course and not prematurely leave, declaring the place a success, and than having it nearly slip into a civil war.

So, yes, do supress independence activists in West Papua, please, and help them towards autonomy.

[sibeymai]

ColPyat, agree, but not quite for the same reason.

Australia, after realising it had back the wrong side and then formally supporting East Timor's independence, really didn't stick around long enough to see the job done properly.

When the UN says "we'll look after it" it's reasonable to expect that they live up to their word and as such, Australia deferred to the UN. In practice, as we know, it's a different story.

The same half-ar@ed approach is now being tried in the Solomons and no doubt in Fiji, should it come to that. Politicians and beaureacrats are all too willing to hand it over to the UN so when it all goes off the rails there's a scapegoat to blame.

If it's in our backyard, then we should take a more active interest and take responsibility for the results of our actions. No sign of that happening.

Supressing independence in West Papua, or more correctly, the unification of Papua, is never going to work. Indonesia is just as much at fault as Australia in this regard. The West Papuan natural reasources which Indonesia and Australia want to carve up between themselves really don;t justify what's going to happen to the West Papuan people over the next 20-30 years while the mess is sorted out.

[Siripon]

Ex-Thai leader says Australia ignorant

From correspondents in Bangkok

November 12, 2006

"You say that Australia is an Asian nation and it should be well aware of what's going on in other Asian countries," Anand said.

"But this (coup) is a case in point - you're not Asians yet, you have an entirely different mentality - you belong to the Western group."

Interesting.

In which category would Anand then put the many Thais that openly have criticised the coup, people such as Giles and John Ungpakorn, the people of the September 19th network, and countless other groups and people? Are they then, according to this logic, not "Asian" either?

Sad to hear such xenophobic crap from such a respected person. This does not bode well for Thailand's future. It seems that we exprience presently a huge shift towards the extreme conservative nationalist corner here in Thailand.

Giles and John, they say they are anti-coup and anti-Thaksin, so what is their stance? Do they propose both Thaksin and the coup leaders resign together? And er, who takes their place? Perhaps Giles and Jon.

I remember when their father was bundled and mishandled onto a plane, exiled to England by the right wing thugs in 1976. It no doubt left a bitter taste in the sons' mouths regarding the army but it's not the same now.

'Countless other groups', the colonel says, please give details, I saw a few protestors at Sanam Luang yesterday but they certainly weren't countless.

The majority of educated Thais supported the coup because they saw the alternative was a bloodbath and they realised the Thaksin regime was a democracy in name only, every check and balance had been undermined and neutered.

The leaders of USA and their sheriff in Asia, Australia, had to condemn the coup publicly but how many world leaders have demanded Thaksin be reinstated?

I believe the President of The Virgin Islands, a Mr Nar Liem was the sole figure.

No-one played the nationalistic card more than Thaksin,( the last refuge of a scoundrel), ' I'll be happy to be killed in the line of duty, laid to rest in a coffin draped with the national flag would be my greatest honour', he once said.

This from the man who avoided tax at every opportunity!

[fruittbatt]

From an historical perspective, Australia's attitude to Asia has been immensely ignorant and arrogant. Australia has never come to terms with the implications of its geographical location in Asia. The country has always seen itself as a European enclave on the butt end of the universe.

The White Australia policy effectively stopped any Asian immigration to that underpopulated country crying out for workers and families - until the 1960s. During the first half of the 20C bulk Brits and southern Europeans (Italians and Greeks) were given assisted passage to help populate Australia.

In the aftermath of the Vietnam war in the '70s, the Labour Party relaxed immigration restrictions and allowed some Vietnamese refugees to enter Australia, amidst howls of protest from a solid core of racist die-hards.

The underlying racism in Australia has not disappeared. Witness the popularity of arch anti-Asian racist Pauline Hansen and her "One Nation" party in the polls of the late 1990s. Hansen's popularity prepared the ground for the Howard government's recent policy of "get tough" on Asian immigration and refugees.

My father was a pioneer advocate of teaching Asian languages in Australian schools. He designed the first Malay syllabus and worked to help university students from Malaysia and Sri Lanka to adjust to life in Australia during their student years. The discriminatory practices against Asians in Australia were still appalling even in the 1970s: (called gooks, n*ggers and <deleted> and refused service or accommodation in certain hotels).

In the 1990s funding of Asian Studies programs in Australian universities was cut, even as China and India loomed as the major players of the future. In schools, many Asian language programs have been axed, although Chinese and Japanese have been retained.....along with French, German and Italian!!!!!

During the 1970s Australia "granted" PNG its independence after scrambling together a half-baked constitution, which, it could be argued, is partially responsible for many of the problems of PNG today. Australian mining has created environmental disasters in PNG - such as BHP's Fly River debacle, and the environmental rape of Bougainville.

Australia also tacitly condoned Indonesia's violent annexation of East Timor. To add insult to gross injury, Australia has recently ripped off most (about 90%) of the profits from East Timor-Australia's nat gas pipeline venture, the only source of significant revenue for this impoverished country.

Australia's diplomatic track record with Malaysia and Indonesia is laughably insensitive at best, politically disastrous at worst. It is scarcely surprising that ASEAN has excluded "white" Australia.

In regard to Thailand, the FTA notwithstanding, Australia's attitude to problems in the South and to the coup bear the hallmarks of xenophobia. there is total lack of understanding of this coup's "difference" from a violent military dictatorship such as that of Burma.

Edited November 12, 2006 by fruittbatt

[ColPyat]

Giles and John, they say they are anti-coup and anti-Thaksin, so what is their stance? Do they propose both Thaksin and the coup leaders resign together? And er, who takes their place? Perhaps Giles and Jon.

I remember when their father was bundled and mishandled onto a plane, exiled to England by the right wing thugs in 1976. It no doubt left a bitter taste in the sons' mouths regarding the army but it's not the same now.

'Countless other groups', the colonel says, please give details, I saw a few protestors at Sanam Luang yesterday but they certainly weren't countless.

The majority of educated Thais supported the coup because they saw the alternative was a bloodbath and they realised the Thaksin regime was a democracy in name only, every check and balance had been undermined and neutered.

The leaders of USA and their sheriff in Asia, Australia, had to condemn the coup publicly but how many world leaders have demanded Thaksin be reinstated?

I believe the President of The Virgin Islands, a Mr Nar Liem was the sole figure.

No-one played the nationalistic card more than Thaksin,( the last refuge of a scoundrel), ' I'll be happy to be killed in the line of duty, laid to rest in a coffin draped with the national flag would be my greatest honour', he once said.

This from the man who avoided tax at every opportunity!

I don't think the topic of the discussion is the position of Giles or John, or the little impact groups such as D-code have. I would love to debate this, but i fear that this is still not permitted under present boardrules, and martial law.

Point, and topic of the discussion is that Anand accused Australia of not being part of Asia giving as reason that Australia has not supported the coup. I have pointed out that there are many "Asians", and Thais in particular, and not only uneducated Thais, who have publically stated that they oppose the coup, though they still are Asians, and view such statements, as voiced by Anand, as basically myopic, if not xenophobic.

Or do you disagree with that as well, and if so, could you please stay with the topic, please?

[LaoPo]

Ex-Thai leader says Australia ignorant

From correspondents in Bangkok

November 12, 2006

A FORMER Thai prime minister has accused Australian politicians of being ignorant and uninformed about Asia, just days before the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) meeting starts in Vietnam.

"In a way, I would view those Western leaders - be they American, Australian, New Zealanders - they are uninformed people. They're ignorant, they're completely ignorant," Anand said.

full story here

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...75-1702,00.html

I would think it's the Thai government who's completely ignorant about the rest of the world and what's going on, especially in economics......

LaoPo

[lannarebirth]

Nothing too surprising here. It is the nature of democracies to decry the overthrow of democracies, and it is the nature of juntas to say they did it for the people. not too different than on this forum where real estate owners say the market is going up and those who don't own real estate say that crash is just around the corner.

The last Thai administartion signed an absolutely horrendous FTA with Australia, which looked to many as a complete sellout of the poor farmers that Thaksin claimed as his constituency. Perhaps this latest salvo is just a warning not to sweep into Thailand too fast and disenfranchise the myriad agricultural interests here. What Thaksin signed does not jibe with "The Sufficiency Economy" at all.

http://www.focusweb.org/main/html/Article537.html

Edited November 12, 2006 by lannarebirth

[samran]

Nothing too surprising here. It is the nature of democracies to decry the overthrow of democracies, and it is the nature of juntas to say they did it for the people. not too different than on this forum where real estate owners say the market is going up and those who don't own real estate say that crash is just around the corner.

The last Thai administartion signed an absolutely horrendous FTA with Australia, which looked to many as a complete sellout of the poor farmers that Thaksin claimed as his constituency. Perhaps this latest salvo is just a warning not to sweep into Thailand too fast and disenfranchise the myriad agricultural interests here. What Thaksin signed does not jibe with "The Sufficiency Economy" at all.

http://www.focusweb.org/main/html/Article537.html

As far as I can see, it is Thai companies and industry associations which are asking for protection...not the farmers. I doubt many agri-businesses actually give two hoots about the poor peasant farmer.

One of the issues I have with general protectionist arguments is that the ones who are making them are usually the ones who are making nice healthy profits of it, but when confronted with the prospect of lower trade barriers....they trot out a poor farmer who they're probably massively underpaying, bus them down to BKK, pay them 100 baht per day to protest out the front of the Ministry of Commerce, and expect to get a sympathetic hearing.

In any case, the phase in times are so long (2020!!!) there is plenty of time so that the cushioned agri-businesses here...sorry, poor farmer...can become more efficient, or just realise that dairy farming isn't particularly suited to the tropics!

[Krungthepian]

It does look like Anand's remarks are a bit xenophobic. But I think he's right - the reactions from Downer and Helen Clark, in particular, to the coup lacked any sympathy for or understanding of the situation in Thailand.. they may well have been comments for their "domestic constituents" but they are two very experienced politicians and should know everything they say is replayed around the world and up here.

As an Aussie living in Thailand, I felt very disappointed in the remarks Downer and Clark made when news of the coup broke.. Thaksin was regarded as having led one of the most corrupt administrations in re cent years. There were massive protests in the streets of Bangkok for weeks early this year, and his record on human rights abuses - inciting the slaying of 3000 or more people in the "war on drugs" in early 2003, repeated acts of media suppression and utter disregard for the slaying of at least 20 activists protesting against things such as power stations and local land grabs .. people such as Muslim lawyer Somchai Neelaphaijit, whose abduction has now been linked directly to someone in the PM's Office .. who was allegedly in contact with one of the five police said to have been involved on the very night of his disappearance .. look into Thaksin's business record and you can see very clearly he was close to a corporate crook for much of his career .. note particularly his involvement in the highly controversial seizure of a cable-TV company set up with Seattle businessman William Monson .. the Thai man who introduced Thaksin to Monson claimed in The Nation not long ago that was how Thaksin made his first billion baht)..

Sorry for going on, but the point is our embassies knew all this stuff and a lot more. Both Clark and Downer should have been told many times how grubby Thaksin was .. and they should also have been able to find out fairly quickly that General Sonthi and Surayud were/are military leaders with impeccable records.. Men of extraordinary discipline and with absolutely no history of having any sort of political ambition and both linked very closely to the Palace. How much of a risk would it have been for them to suggest that, "actually, you know, this may not be so bad.. there was a real threat of blood on the streets similar or worse than 1992.. talk of a coup had been reported on for months and months .. to the point where the big question was which side would stage one first .. and with a leader as selfish and unscrupulous as Thaksin, gosh, was it actually surprising that he did lose power the way he did?

One columnist has said the way that the timing and nature of Thaksin's departure may well have been a deliberate act of leaving the door open to what occurred .. with all the luggage he reportedly took with him (however many suitcases, etc).. for a man as Machiavellian as old Square Face, you really can't discount such a thing. One Burmese man I know reckons the junta's top generals would never have made the sort of "mistake" that Thaksin made by leaving on an extended trip at such a point. And journalists have been wondering what his real motives were; Is he as superstitious as they say? And did the disabled Burmese he reportedly saw, weeks earlier, convince him to leave the country because the negative power of two supposed solar eclipses in the second half of September were so bad he should not be in the country? It's wild and incredibly fanciful stuff, yet, was it a factor in what occurred?

The trouble is, he's such a compulsive liar, short of him becoming a radical Christian convert or becoming a devoted Buddhist like his former friend/foe Chamlong - we may never know.

Back on the topic, I can easily imagine how someone like Anand - who has copped a lot of flak from the Rich One, now exiled in London (or lurking in China or somewhere just over the northern border, god knows..) might feel upset at the lack of "understanding" from the West for what has occurred here. You don't expect someone like George Bush to stand up and say something enlightened (unless it's a month of Sundays perhaps), but very few Western leaders have broken out of the standard all-coups-are-bad mould.

My firm belief is Surayud will lead one of the best regimes this country has ever seen, and that Thais such as Giles Ungprakorn, who may have fair reasons to attack military interventions given what his family went through, will be spewing into their cornflakes long after Surayud is replaced by the hopeless greedy bozos that lined up shamelessly behind Thaksin for the past five years.

Let's just hope that a good number of them are defending themselves in court for some of what they allowed while in office by the time the election is staged - probably in early 2008.

[ColPyat]

.. and they should also have been able to find out fairly quickly that General Sonthi and Surayud were/are military leaders with impeccable records..

Is that so?

Why are we still not allowed to view the still secret report on the '92 may massaker? Gen. Surayud commanded the special warfare command, that has taken part in the violence against the demonstrators. Gen. Sonthi was one of his officers then.

The only thing we have is Surayudh distancing himself from this incident, explaining that he did not give the orders to shoot. I would like to see him cleared by an open investigation, and not just having to rely on his word.