The GLBT angle to the Orlando atrocity

[Jingthing]

You don't even know for a fact that he was gay. Still, not one shred of evidence that he ever had gay sex in his entire life. The casing theory is still possible.

I've already explained how it can still be a homophobic hate crime when the criminal is closet, conflicted, INTERNALLY homophobic.

Victimization, huh? Sounds like right wing garbage.

Gay Americans are violently attacked regularly in the USA (to higher levels than blacks, Jews, and Muslims) and don't enjoy equal legal civil rights protections in employment, housing, etc in most of the nation.

As far as the Islamist motivation. It's real. The terrorist made that clear multiple ways.

As far as gun control, we agree, but it's also true a well motivated terrorist could have found other ways to commit mass murder without any guns.

Not finding both the homophobic hate crime and the Islamist terror elements BOTH relevant in the Orlando attack?

Think too much? More like think too little.

Things can easily be about MULTIPLE things.

Even though we obviously disagree, thanks for posting on this thread.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Right wing trump supporting republican Florida A.G. that was questioned by Anderson Cooper (previously posted) about her record on gay civil rights made a big complaint about that interview, so Cooper responds here:

Bondi scandal?

Florida’s attorney general asked Donald Trump for a campaign donation

After receiving $25,000, she dropped her review of complaints into Trump University

This one smells. We need a federal investigation

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article82634527.html#storylink=cpy

Edited June 16, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Of course I'm largely convinced (and it's clear the FBI investigation agrees) that the Orlando atrocity is a MIX of both Islamist inspired terrorism and a homophobic hate crime (with possible complications of internalized homophobia) this writer seems to want to discount that. I can't agree ... he went to such great pains to broadcast his Islamist terrorist inspiration ... who are we to say they weren't real?

It's worth reading I think:

What happens when a gay person grows up in an anti-gay home

Politicians will continue to use “radical Islam” as a culprit. But it’s not clear that Mateen was motivated by ideology; indeed, he claimed to support a jumble of groups with conflicting points of view. On the other hand, his ex-wife told CNN, “It doesn’t surprise me that he was leading two totally different lives and was in such deep conflict within himself.” No psychologist, says Budge, would say this conflict was the triggering cause. But it’s impossible to imagine that the deep distress of this internal struggle did not contribute in some way to Mateen’s mental state.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/16/growing-up-gay-in-an-anti-gay-home-can-make-you-depressed-and-violent/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-f%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

Edited June 16, 2016 by Jingthing

[anotheruser]

Thank you Captain Obvious. The "gay" angle? Do they have to spell it out in blood on the floor for you? Wake up, of course it is a hate crime, an act of terrorism and the act of a delusional individual. They are not exclusive of one another.

[Jingthing]

Melissa Etheridge is releasing a new song in response to the Orlando atrocity.

Proceeds will be for charity.

Everybody's got a pulse:

The anthemic ballad begins with the lines: "Everybody's got a pain inside/ Imaginary wounds they fight to hide/ How can I hate them, when everybody's got a pulse?" and the refrain reinforces the need for unity in the face of hate as it repeats: "I am human; I am love/ And my heart beats with my blood/ Love will always win/ Underneath the skin, everybody's got a pulse."

Perhaps the most chilling moment comes in the stanza in which she seems to be addressing Omar Mateen, the 29-year-old man who killed and injured so many: "Who you gonna hate now?/ When there's no one left but you?/ Who you gonna gun down?/ If you can't kill the truth/ That it's inside of us/ Inside our blood/ Inside our pulse."

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/hear-melissa-etheridges-chilling-pulse-dedicated-to-orlando-victims-20160615

LISTEN on the link.

[NanLaew]

You don't even know for a fact that he was gay. Still, not one shred of evidence that he ever had gay sex in his entire life. The casing theory is still possible.

I've already explained how it can still be a homophobic hate crime when the criminal is closet, conflicted, INTERNALLY homophobic.

Victimization, huh? Sounds like right wing garbage.

Gay Americans are violently attacked regularly in the USA (to higher levels than blacks, Jews, and Muslims) and don't enjoy equal legal civil rights protections in employment, housing, etc in most of the nation.

As far as the Islamist motivation. It's real. The terrorist made that clear multiple ways.

As far as gun control, we agree, but it's also true a well motivated terrorist could have found other ways to commit mass murder without any guns.

Not finding both the homophobic hate crime and the Islamist terror elements BOTH relevant in the Orlando attack?

Think too much? More like think too little.

Things can easily be about MULTIPLE things.

Even though we obviously disagree, thanks for posting on this thread.

I never commented on the more recent press reports about the shooters possible, closet homosexual proclivities; the jury, including mine is still out on that claim. You quite rightly introduced it when the mainstream media brought it up. You chose to marginalize it while re-stating the possibility that his being a regular patron at the club was due to his 'casing the joint'. A sort of "gay people wouldn't do that to each other" defense? That's perfectly alright as it is your thread and these are your opinions. I am not arguing them at all. There are earlier reports that he may have been 'casing' the Disney complex as well. If he is subsequently spotted as being on some old Walmart CCTV footage, someone will invariably claim that he was 'casing' that establishment as well. He's dead so we will never know.

Similarly, I never dismissed the contributing and/or obfuscating factors of homophobia and religion. My view is he was a sick and deeply troubled individual; only that. The complications of his faith in a modern, more open society may have exacerbated his situation but I don't see homophobia as the root cause just the same as I fail to see Islamic radicalization as being the prime catalyst. Calling 911 and claiming the atrocity in the name of ISIS may have been playing to his own perceived rejection by society as a whole and an easy point since everyone knows what ISIS publicly do to gays back home. He was by all accounts a social reject and apart from his two pilgrimages to Saudi, there's no evidence to suggest that anything playing out in the middle east played an active part in his self-destruction and psuedo self-radicalization. ISIS didn't know him from Adam (probably still don't) and beyond some formal acknowledgement of the event, I don't see anyone in the Levant claiming he was one of their foot soldiers doing Allah's will with any great zeal. That fantasy may have played on the big screen in the shooters troubled mind. As you said earlier, he could just as easily have chosen to wreak carnage in a Jewish day school but think he just went for the trifecta that would get him the most '5 minutes of fame' as he saw it; ethnic minority homosexual or gay victims slaughtered by Islamist. Slam dunk.

The following statement seems to be playing the victim card rather strongly, “Whether the gunman’s homophobia spurred from hatred of others or hatred of himself, this is homophobia all the same,” the LGBT group GLAAD said in a statement. “It’s sadly just the latest example of homophobia turning to horrific violence, just as it has for decades.” Although homophobia undeniably exists, I consider the Orlando shooter hijacked it as his own means to an end.

I find it interesting that the club where he murdered and injured so many was not local to his home and allegedly his wife would drive him the 2 hours from home to the club. Not exactly a handy venue of opportunity in that regard but maybe there are no gay-friendly social venues nearer his home? If there was, maybe it was too close to home if he truly was a closet homosexual seeking friends. Or not big enough if he truly was a radical extremist hell-bent on causing carnage. But ultimately of no great logistical significance for for the deeply, psychologically flawed individual that he obviously and primarily was.

Edited June 17, 2016 by NanLaew

[Jingthing]

There were gay venues much closer to his home. Smaller.

Orlando is known internationally because of Disney. For a terrorist seeking a big hit it made much more sense than hitting an unknown place.

The links to Islamist inspired extremism go back many years including celebrating during 911. To suggest the only links were the calls is absurd. Multiple witnesses to the level of getting the FBI involved before.

As far as accusing me of thinking gay people aren't capable of atrocities, that is wrong, offensive and insulting.

As far as this terrorist's gay identify though I still see little hard evidence he ever actually identified as a gay man. There is reasonable evidence that he had desires that way and that probably the way he was raised caused him to have internal conflicts about those feelings. I still find it odd not one man reports sex with him. While clearly he was socially inept he could have gone to gay saunas or hired sex workers, etc.

To also add there are multiple reports of the terrorist uttering extreme homophobic rhetoric to coworkers, etc. Yes of course that can be a sign of a conflicted closet case being defensive.

As he did definitely identify with Islamist terrorists picking a gay target may have, speculation here, been a way of working out his inner demons and also killing people he was smart enough to know ISIS would highly approve of. While clearly most all Americans are good targets for ISIS, Jews and gays are especially targeted. Don't forget there was a Jewish connection to the San Bernardino target.

He also clearly wanted to be immortally famous in the western sense. He obviously intentionally wanted to go out with a big splash. After all he was American. The checking for media coverage during the incident is evidence of that. In that sense he was a huge success both for ISIS goals and his own American ego.

This terrorist was disturbed which is typical of such people but he certainly had good intelligence. You hear of cases where terrorists end up dead while claiming a few or no victims. Or busted before hitting. There are more like him out there. Hoping they are not as competent as he was.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Getting weirder.

As I've said no evidence yet the terrorist actually EVER had gay sex with anyone.

Which of course doesn't mean he didn't want to on some level.

Getting closer, but no cigar.

Report of communication with a gay man that was interested in him since 2007 (!!!!!) and that the terrorist sent a dick pic.

But no actual hookup.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/16/us/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen/index.html

Also, bizarrely, a report there was communication that he had communication with his wife during the terrorist attack. That lady is gonna need a really good lawyer. Her only defense is that he abused her and threatened to kill her ... that's possibly UNBELIEVABLE.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

To reiterate, this thread is open to ALL to comment, as long as the comments are respectful.

It was started early after the terrorist attack when it was clear there was a gay angle to the case, as far as the TARGET, but well before the mysteries of the terrorist's sexuality became so central to the story.

I could not have started this more specialized topic on the world news forum because that is closed to members to open topics there.

But I could start it here.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

A commentary about how Orlando is being spun:

http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2016/6/17/sit-down-islamophobes-trying-fit-orlando-their-narrative

Not endorsing it. Just including it for discussion purposes.

Of course a major news event like the Orlando atrocity gets politicized right away.

Like it or not, this is the way it is in American politics these days, especially in an election year.

This event touches on a lot of issues:

Islamist terrorism

Muslim immigration. (Trump.) Yes, even though this terrorist was born in the USA and fully a U.S. citizen.

Self Islamist terror radicalization on the internet

Radicalization via American Imams

Mental Illness

Gun Control

Islamophobia

Homophobia (including internalized)

Similarities and differences between Islamic based homophobia and Christian based homophobia (in the USA context Christian based homophobia has been much more damaging to American gay people than Islamic, simply because the vast majority of Americans are Christians, at least culturally)

Right wing/republican hypocrisy (on one hand expressing crocodile tears sympathy for the gay club victims while with the other still working to pass anti-gay laws). A hugely important part of their support base demographic is Christian fundamentalists.

FBI policies towards terrorist investigations

Encouraging Americans to more aggressively REPORT people that show signs of terrorist radicalization

Edited June 17, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

A quite OUTspoken survivor speaks:

'Stop Being Shady and Messy, Just Love One Another'

https://www.facebook.com/TheAdvocate/videos/10153946872443855/

He mentions that Parliament House gay bar in Orlando is larger than Pulse. As mentioned before it has been pointed out that Parliament House has a much more open layout, meaning it would have been much easier to escape from.

He also mentions that he thinks there were some victims there that were visiting a gay bar for the first time. Doubtful he really knows that, but still profound to consider.

Do you remember the very first time you walked into a gay bar?

Edited June 17, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Right wing republicans, PREDICTABLY, erasing the gay angle.

But as Log Cabin Republicans president Gregory T. Angelo said that the amendment is indicative of the way the GOP has largely cut LGBT people out of their own tragedy.

“Scrubbing an early draft of their press release for any specific mention of gay people or sexual orientation is indicative of the cowardice a lot of Republicans exhibited in the aftermath of the shootings,” Angelo told the tech website.

Following the June 12 attack on the Florida gay bar, many right-wing politicians tweeted their “thoughts and prayers” to the victims and their families. Many of these lawmakers, however, specifically avoiding invoking of the sexual orientation of those who were killed. TheWashington Post found that Democrats were 10 times more likely to “[address] the LGBT community in their statements.”

http://www.advocate.com/politics/2016/6/17/national-gop-cut-lgbt-people-its-response-orlando-shooting

Edited June 17, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Credit where credit is due.

At least ONE republican politician who claims he had a change of heart in response to the Orlando atrocity:

"I’m here because those 49 people were gay. I’m here because it shouldn’t matter. But I’m here because it does," said the lieutenant governor. He made reference to his childhood, which he looked back on with guilt for teasing kids who were "different."

"I didn’t know it at the time," he said, "but I know now that they were gay." The lieutenant governor goes on explain that he grew up in a small town and went to a rural high school, but he will "forever regret not treating" his queer peers "with the kindness, dignity and respect — the love — that they deserved." Cox follows his statement of regret with an apology: "I sincerely and humbly apologize."

In his speech, the lieutenant governor reached out to straight people who do not support LGBT rights, asking them to sympathize with the victims of Orlando. "I am speaking now to the straight community," he said. He asked them if their feelings changed on the shooting in Orlando when they heard the victims were, by and large, LGBT: "Did that feeling change when you found out the shooting was at a gay bar at 2 a.m. in the morning? If that feeling changed, then we are doing something wrong."

Edited June 17, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The more typical republican response:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/republicans-fowl-response-to-the-orlando-terror-attack/2016/06/17/de7594d4-3480-11e6-95c0-2a6873031302_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

Republicans’ fowl response to the Orlando terrorist attack

Thus was the response to the Orlando atrocity. Lawmakers declined to keep guns and explosives out of suspected terrorists’ hands. They refused to extend equal protection to gay Americans. But they bravely repelled an imaginary threat to hamburgers.

...

But this “push” is bull. The dangers our leaders won’t address — terrorists getting guns, and legal discrimination against gay people — are real.

[Jingthing]

I've touched on this area before (here and on other threads) but watching an interview with David Frum on Hard Talk made the issue more clear to me.

David Frum is a STRONGLY anti-trump, republican neocon. While we differ politically he is extremely intelligent. It happens sometimes with republicans.

He pointed out a contradiction / problem in the leftist embrace of BOTH total diversity AND full civil rights for LGBT, women, etc.

The problem is that SOME demographics of that DIVERSITY ... getting specific here ... MUSLIM demographics, are in some basic ways just not COMPATIBLE with support for full civil rights for LGBT, women, etc.

To me the approach of Bernie Sanders represents this contradiction very well. Does he even recognize the contradiction? I somehow doubt it. Yes, I totally agree with Frum on this, the contradiction DOES exist and the left would gain more credibility to find a way to face it and deal with it.

Now, in the U.S. context, Muslim numbers in the population are very low and this really hasn't been a problem, even discounting Orlando which is a hybrid event touching on Jihad, homophobia (likely related to internalized homophobia), and easy access to mass killing style GUNS.

But in EUROPE this has become a much bigger thing ... related to much larger percentages of Muslims in the population.

Traditionally, in the U.S. the main religiously motivated oppressors of LGBT have been CHRISTIAN inspired, and that will continue to be the primary problem. But it is also true that the percentage of CHRISTIANS that feel any support for more EXTREMIST policies towards LGBT (such as just kill them or jail them) is relatively small to support for such extremes among Muslim populations. Speaking more globally here. American Muslim population is almost definitely more LIBERAL than most other national Muslim populations.

But still, I think Frum has highlighted a real problem on the left. Can we REALLY have it ALL, full embrace of diversity and ALSO full support for LGBT and women's civil rights? Arguably, no. As I've said many times on this forum, intolerance of intolerance is not intolerance.

How to navigate these sticky contradictions for the left is something I don't know. The right, the trump right, is going the full on irrational hate path. That's obviously wrong. But we know where they're at.

I brought this up as more of a nuance question for the left.

Anyway ... yes, I've noticed that the participation on this thread has been very, very weak. I'm disappointed about that but it's out of my control.

I will stop posting here unless there are replies. I can hear some of you saying: FINALLY!

Edited June 18, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Well, I'm going to openly break my pledge to stop posting here if no interest, because I think this story may be big enough to warrant it.

Perhaps it will make the mainstream media, perhaps not.

I'm not saying it should be taken as fact, but the possible theory that revenge might be part of the motive has been mentioned before.

There is no doubt the shooter was mentally messed up, and unlike many on the ideological left, I'm going to take his multiple announcements of allegiance to Islamic Jihad as real, though I've never felt, as the ideological right is doing, that Islamist terror was the ONLY factor. It's a weird mix. If there is truth to this report, even weirder than most could have imagined.

Note the detail that suggests the FBI hasn't fully accepted his story yet, but now it's out there, and it's a BOMBSHELL.

The man told Univision that Omar Mateen's motive was not "terrorism" but rather a revenge attack on Puerto Ricans.

Miguel claims that he met with Mateen at least 15 to 20 times but never knew his name. He only knew that Mateen was a 35-year-old married man with a child. The two last met in December, and Miguel contended that Mateen's wife knew that her husband was "100 percent" gay and that their marriage was a cover for his sexuality.

The man reported that Mateen expressed resentment over his dad's views on LGBT people. He says Mateen's father believed that "gay people [are] the devil and gay people have to die."

http://www.advocate.com/crime/2016/6/21/man-claims-he-had-intimate-relationship-orlando-shooter

[Jingthing]

I think this news update is important enough to post for anyone who has been reading this thread.

Even though there has been a lot of gossip about the terrorist being gay, the FBI remains unconvinced by the available evidence.

I assume this may be their final finding on this question:

http://www.advocate.com/crime/2016/6/24/fbi-no-evidence-orlando-gunman-was-gay-video

FBI: No Evidence Orlando Gunman Was Gay

Despite men coming forward to say the killer of 49 people flirted with them or engaged in sex with them, investigators say they haven't found any clues to support their claims.

I understand that there are some cynical people who are going to accuse the FBI of saying this for political motivations. Nothing about this case is free of such speculation.

The FBI conclusions appear to be (which I agree with) that this terror event was a complex MIXTURE of Jihadist inspired terrorism and homophobia (evidenced by the target).

Edited June 25, 2016 by Jingthing