Bringing Thaksin To Account

[ColPyat]

Nevertheless, I chose not to respond to him directly as he's just egging on for another suspension... so I'll leave him alone to his vices and not say anything directly to him. He hasn't seemed to learn any lessons.

Maybe then 'he' will keep igoring your incessant blather.

Pot calling the kettle black!!!!!!!!!

Whatever...

[Plus]

Didn't Hitler truly believe that Jews were the bane of civilisation? Didn't he start with looking for evidence of Jew conspiracy everywhere? Didn't he sacrifice sanity in pursuit of his idea?

People who refuse to accept any evidence that is contrary to their ideology are surely walking in the same direction.

[sriracha john]

Pot calling the kettle black!!!!!!!!!

I'd direct his attention to the forum rules and his obvious disregard for them or just report the post to a mod.

Edited December 15, 2006 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

Didn't Hitler truly believe that Jews were the bane of civilisation? Didn't he start with looking for evidence of Jew conspiracy everywhere? Didn't he sacrifice sanity in pursuit of his idea?

People who refuse to accept any evidence that is contrary to their ideology are surely walking in the same direction.

You should read some Hitler biographies in order to make more qualified statements. That would also be good for Mr. Banjerd and all the others who like to compare Thaksin with Hitler.

Best is Kershaw's two volumes 'Hubris' (years of 1889 to 1936) and 'Nemesis' (1936 to 1945). Kershaw's Hitler biographies have now replaced the also very good Fest biography as the definate Hitler biography. But maybe reading those might be too 'ideological' for you.

[Plus]

Here's a well thought out statement - I'm not going to read five books about Hitler before continuing with this thread.

If you want to say that Hitler "did things" for his personal benefit, just say so without sending everyone to the library.

I very much doubt that fashism and nazism would attract such a huge following if they weren't percieved as "national" ideologies.

[ColPyat]

Here's a well thought out statement - I'm not going to read five books about Hitler before continuing with this thread.

Reading a few more books about this and other subjects might help you over your obvious lack in education and to more informed opionions.

But yes, as is appearant, you won't need either in order to continue with this thread.

Lets not forget - this is the internet...

[Plus]

That's why a conversation like that would never last five minutes in the real world but here we have to endure your pompous self-adulation and condescending advice.

Have you said anything about the subject - Hitler? No. What are you actually arguing against? Not clear. Do you have an opinion you can express in one sentence? Apparently not.

Will you keep denigrating other posters for their lack of education? Yes.

Troll.

[ColPyat]

Have you said anything about the subject - Hitler? No. What are you actually arguing against? Not clear. Do you have an opinion you can express in one sentence? Apparently not.

Presenly i am laughing about the sadly so common but outlandish comparisms between Thaksin and Hitler spread by people with a desperate need for basic education in history and politics.

Opinions on complex subjects such as Hitler expressed in one sentence are fit for a drunk beerhall debate. And exacty this is the reason why i won't engage in another fruitless debate on this subject with you. You expect opinions expressed in one sentence, and i expect you to have more knowledge on the subject matter.

Again, i am not here to educate you, just go and buy the books i advised you to read, read them, and then we can have a good discussion.

[ColPyat]

Maybe now it's time we move to more important subjects, such as this one just on the Nation breaking news:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30021716

Surayud stung by wasp

Nakhon Ratchasima - Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont was stung by a wasp at his resort house in this northeastern province Saturday morning.

Surayud got up at his house at the Yai Thiang Mountain at 6 am and exercised by walking around his house.

At that time, a servant hit a wasp net and one of the wasps stung his left arm.

An aide removed the sting from Suryud's arm.

The Nation

[JacknDanny]

Here's a well thought out statement - I'm not going to read five books about Hitler before continuing with this thread.

Reading a few more books about this and other subjects might help you over your obvious lack in education and to more informed opionions.

You have got more front than Harrods, Col Pyat!!

Obviously the many books that you have read may have given you knowledge, but havent given you any indication as to how to spell!! Is that lack of education?

[ColPyat]

You have got more front than Harrods, Col Pyat!!

Obviously the many books that you have read may have given you knowledge, but havent given you any indication as to how to spell!! Is that lack of education?

No, it's called dyslexia, you plonker.

And before you ask, in my mother tongue, which is not English, i can't spell either.

[JacknDanny]

You have got more front than Harrods, Col Pyat!!

Obviously the many books that you have read may have given you knowledge, but havent given you any indication as to how to spell!! Is that lack of education?

No, it's called dyslexia, you plonker.

And before you ask, in my mother tongue, which is not English, i can't spell either.

Ok I apologise, now I understand some of the inane comments that you have made in the past

What you wrote was obviously not what you meant

[ColPyat]

Ok I apologise, now I understand some of the inane comments that you have made in the past

What you wrote was obviously not what you meant

Very droll.

[ColPyat]

And having had our little amusement, is it possible that we can move the debate back to the thread topic, please?

It's getting rather tiring for me, and it must be excruciatingly boring for the rest of the readers having to follow this meaningless tit for tat when they want to know about "Bringing Thaksin to Account".

Please?

Thank you.

[Grover]

And having had our little amusement, is it possible that we can move the debate back to the thread topic, please?

It's getting rather tiring for me, and it must be excruciatingly boring for the rest of the readers having to follow this meaningless tit for tat when they want to know about "Bringing Thaksin to Account".

Please?

Thank you.

Yeh.

So when are you going to "Bring Thaksin to Account" Colpyat ? It's becoming excruciatingly boring watching you tip-toe around reality.

[sriracha john]

Jaffy, that's not the kind of language we use at this forum, please try to act civillized.

Right. "We" only hate Muslims (even though we can't properly spell yet)...

Thailand have ...

Analysing mosts posts of our single-minded Thaksin fans here i see rather short outbursts with catastrophic syntax and spelling...

I think you didn't get it yet.

"Farang", spelled with an "a", is a...

h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y

one would think you might empathize with others who have similar difficulties a bit more...

but I expect that's expecting too much...

Edited December 16, 2006 by sriracha john

[marshbags]

Didn't Hitler truly believe that Jews were the bane of civilisation? Didn't he start with looking for evidence of Jew conspiracy everywhere? Didn't he sacrifice sanity in pursuit of his idea?

People who refuse to accept any evidence that is contrary to their ideology are surely walking in the same direction.

You should read some Hitler biographies in order to make more qualified statements. That would also be good for Mr. Banjerd and all the others who like to compare Thaksin with Hitler.

Best is Kershaw's two volumes 'Hubris' (years of 1889 to 1936) and 'Nemesis' (1936 to 1945). Kershaw's Hitler biographies have now replaced the also very good Fest biography as the definate Hitler biography. But maybe reading those might be too 'ideological' for you.

To get it back on topic before it drifts away, another observation.

You do not do your opinions nor more to the point the threads topic any justice by comparing history with what happened in recent times.

2003 to be precise.

Everyone today is / should be aware of the implications and evil wrongdoings such dastardly crimes cause.

Especially in this case where all the offenders where educated and well aware of their actions.

Please don,t try to justify these aborrent crimes by doing this, Thaksin was the oversear to and gave it his complete approval despite the fact there where daily reportings of what was happening.

Just to make that last point clear he only had to give the orders to stop to show his DISAPPROVAL and it would have ceased immediately after the obvious surfaced on day one.

Therefore he CONDONED it all INSTEAD of doing the right thing and CONDEMNING it, by keeping his agenda on the innocents going, and not speaking out.

Once again this is down to Thaksin as CEO of the the government first and foremost, no excuses.

Incidently, for all who are accusing us of being single minded, it is for this and other reasons soley down to him and his accountability that this is happening.

Not bais but truthful reality.

Where history does / will come in is in relation to these inhuman crimes and Thaksins involvement as yet another Dictator, is in the recorded annals of time.

marshbags and

Edited December 16, 2006 by marshbags

[ovenman]

Lets not forget - this is the internet...

It's getting rather tiring for me, and it must be excruciatingly boring for the rest of the readers having to follow this meaningless tit for tat when they want to know about "Bringing Thaksin to Account".

Those thoughts cut both ways, chief.

[ColPyat]

I think you didn't get it yet.

"Farang", spelled with an "a", is a...

h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y

one would think you might empathize with others who have similar difficulties a bit more...

but I expect that's expecting too much...

Unbelievable.

Don't you have anything better to do than go through my nearly 2000 posts in order to make a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread topic?

Generally that is called s-t-a-l-k-i-ng...

[ColPyat]

To get it back on topic before it drifts away, another observation.

You do not do your opinions nor more to the point the threads topic any justice by comparing history with what happened in recent times.

2003 to be precise.

Everyone today is / should be aware of the implications and evil wrongdoings such dastardly crimes cause.

Especially in this case where all the offenders where educated and well aware of their actions.

Please don,t try to justify these aborrent crimes by doing this, Thaksin was the oversear to and gave it his complete approval despite the fact there where daily reportings of what was happening.

Just to make that last point clear he only had to give the orders to stop to show his DISAPPROVAL and it would have ceased immediately after the obvious surfaced on day one.

Therefore he CONDONED it all INSTEAD of doing the right thing and CONDEMNING it, by keeping his agenda on the innocents going, and not speaking out.

Once again this is down to Thaksin as CEO of the the government first and foremost, no excuses.

Incidently, for all who are accusing us of being single minded, it is for this and other reasons soley down to him and his accountability that this is happening.

Not bais but truthful reality.

Where history does / will come in is in relation to these inhuman crimes and Thaksins involvement as yet another Dictator, is in the recorded annals of time.

marshbags and

Having that off my chest, yes, it is a good idea to get back to the thread topic.

Not just Thaksin has 'condoned' the drugwar killings. Almost everybody has. You have a slighly mstaken theory that Thaksin was the sole and overwhelming force in Thailand during those days. Nothing is monolithic, and most other powers in Thailand have abstained from making any statement against the killings in the crucial first two months of the drugwar. And many others have even encouraged the killings, such as very powerful forces in the clergy.

Other than the national Human Rights commission, a few journalists and a few Democrat politicians nobody of relevance in Thailand said a word against the mass murder in the first two months. Don't forget that.

Yes, i do believe that Thaksin has to be brought to justice for the killings. But i believe that there are many other who should be brought to justice.

My problem with the current debate and discussion is that it only is pointed towards Thaksin, and the other elementary collaborators are completely left alone. This is not an open investigation - this is only a whitch hunt.

And again, you follow the present of just foccusing at the 'innocent' victims. This is disgusting - drug dealer or not - every victim was murdered against any law.

And yes, history is more than important in understanding how the killings happened. It may not be important to solely accuse Thaksin, and get over with it, and leaving the system that enabled the killings in the first place untouched. As has happened many times - as will happen now as well.

[marshbags]

C.P., I,m a bit confused about your part quote:-

And again, you follow the present of just foccusing at the 'innocent' victims. This is disgusting - drug dealer or not - every victim was murdered against any law.

Unquote.

Can you explain it as i would like to come back on this point if need be, depending on what you are referring to, of course.

This is not a " having a go at your grammar thing " by the way, i just don,t get what its significance is as it,s a little implicit.

marshbags

P.S.

Thaksin was the one person who would have had the authority / influence to produce an immediate and effective result.

As such my evaluation of the situation, re the ladder of accountability starts first and foremost with the CEO.

What,s his name again, remind me please.

Therefore my humble opinion is based on reality and has nothing to do with theory.

Edited December 16, 2006 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

C.P., I,m a bit confused about your part quote:-

And again, you follow the present of just foccusing at the 'innocent' victims. This is disgusting - drug dealer or not - every victim was murdered against any law.

Unquote.

Can you explain it as i would like to come back on this point if need be, depending on what you are referring to, of course.

This is not a " having a go at your grammar thing " by the way, i just don,t get what its significance is as it,s a little implicit.

marshbags

You said:

Therefore he CONDONED it all INSTEAD of doing the right thing and CONDEMNING it, by keeping his agenda on the innocents going, and not speaking out.

Maybe i have mistaken you. And yes, out of haste i have ommitted the term 'trend' after present. I have lately problems with the edit function.

Problem is for me that whenever i hear drug war debates in the news here, highlighted are always the 'innocent' victims, the ones who were killed without have been involved in the drugbusiness. For me, that is completely besides the point, does even subconsciously implicate that the wrong thing with the killings was not the extrajudical executions itself, but only that "innocents" were killed as well.

[marshbags]

C.P., I,m a bit confused about your part quote:-

And again, you follow the present of just foccusing at the 'innocent' victims. This is disgusting - drug dealer or not - every victim was murdered against any law.

Unquote.

Can you explain it as i would like to come back on this point if need be, depending on what you are referring to, of course.

This is not a " having a go at your grammar thing " by the way, i just don,t get what its significance is as it,s a little implicit.

marshbags

You said:

Therefore he CONDONED it all INSTEAD of doing the right thing and CONDEMNING it, by keeping his agenda on the innocents going, and not speaking out.

Maybe i have mistaken you. And yes, out of haste i have ommitted the term 'trend' after present. I have lately problems with the edit function.

Problem is for me that whenever i hear drug war debates in the news here, highlighted are always the 'innocent' victims, the ones who were killed without have been involved in the drugbusiness. For me, that is completely besides the point, does even subconsciously implicate that the wrong thing with the killings was not the extrajudical executions itself, but only that "innocents" were killed as well.

We all make grammar mistakes and mistypes, no problem.

Now.

All the victims are innocent as no one was arrested alive and tried in a court of law.

Sadly and tragically the ones who were / may have been guilty in some way will never have a chance to defend / protest their innocence.

Had they lived some would have been convicted of the most serious offences but the majority you refer to who where invovled would have been given a jail term at most, along with treatment in many cases for the addicted.

Remember this is about ALL the murders and now should not need further explanation for future referrence and your point on this about implication should be addressed, maybe. ( I live in hope )

Remember also, had they been arrested there would have been lot,s of Puyai in the frame and some of the CEO,s major supporters among them ???????????????????????????????????????

This after all was a silencing of the less privilidged to protect the real big time dealers.

marshbags

Edited December 16, 2006 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

All the victims are innocent as no one was arrested alive and tried in a court of law.

Sadly and tragically the ones who were / may have been guilty in some way will never have a chance to defend / protest their innocence.

Had they lived some would have been convicted of the most serious offences but the majority you refer to who where invovled would have been given a jail term at most, along with treatment in many cases for the addicted.

Remember this is about ALL the murders and now should not need further explanation and your point on this about implication should be addressed.

( I think )

marshbags

There i am in agreement.

Don't mistake me please - the drugwar killings is the most blatant example of misrule under Thaksin. And i would want to have a full investigation into it, including all factors that played a role, not just Thaksin.

I don't see this happening. Other than in a few parts of the academia (that are irrelavant to life outside university and conferences) the drugwar 'investigations' are so far nothing but political postering, just another tool to discredite Thaksin, though no appearant intention to fully investigate all circumstances.

I bet with you that the only people, if at all, that will take a fall for the drugwar killings will be just a few low level police officers that were ordered to shoot. I don't even see Thaksin yet being able to be implicated in court. For that a lot of people would have to take a fall first that cannot take a fall presently.

I hope i will be proven wrong, but i doubt that.

[ColPyat]

This after all was a silencing of the less privilidged to protect the real big time dealers.

marshbags

Some of it definately was. I can't go any deeper here, but there are/were mid ranked police officers notorious for their involvement in the business, and they did have their low level dealers killed.

There were also far more sinister killings performed by death squads, mostly led by border police officers, and staffed by a mix of police and right wing militia, many of them veterans of the very similar communist killings. Nobody really knows, or has proof, who ordered them, how high up the chain went, and where the chain went. Not all chains lead to Thaksin.

It is convenient to attach the drugwar solely to Thaksin. I have done so in the past too. But nowadys i have certain doubts that only Thaksin was the sole initiator. I tend to believe, a pure hypothesis, that the drugwar was a alliance of convenience between many different networks of power here in Thailand in order to put a stop into the increasingly out of control drug problem.

And exactly because of this we will hardly get an open investigation. Too many could be implicated there.

There is a very recent example of not disclosing investigations into a massacer - that was the '92 Black May. This is still secret, and will most likely remain so for a very long time.

[blaze]

What astonished me- and I think many farang- at the time, was the aquiescence- if not outright support of the 'drug killings' on the part of almost ALL the Thais that I knew. And as I think we all agree, whether the victims were dealers or not is completely beside the point. Unless a trial- conducted transparantly by an impartial judiciary proved them guilty- every one of them was, in the eyes of the law,- Thai law- innocent.

Yet the society at large scarcely batted an eye. Even during the glory days of last spring, very few of Taksin's most vocal opponents even raised this issue- unless they were courting the NGO/human rights types or enumerating the sins of Taksin to the foreign community.

I know- and I'm sure we all do- people who were at best uninterested in the 'human rights' dimension of the drug wars- -- but now- in their zeal to "get Takky"- have suddenly become champions of habeas corpus and the notion that even suspected drug dealers are entitled to due legal process. (Equally amusing is the way that some that I know have suddenly become fanatical advocates of the most draconian interpretation of tax law!- this transformation occurred at about the same time, curiously- within the last six months).

But what I find hardest to swallow - is how those same people, (and trust me, three years ago neither the murder of suspected drug dealers nor the crude and arbitrary way in which taxes were treated here, concerned those good folk one bit) tjpse same evangelists of the LAW- =don't see much wrong with ignoring the fact that their heros just- tore up the nation's constitution and with tanks on the streets, took it upon themselves to change the government.

Once again, law was circumvented in the interest of expedience. Expedience vs law may solve short term problems- but in the long term- as Taksin is discovering- sooner or later people will learn why the law of the land must take precedence over extrajudicial, extralegal- and yes, extraparliamentary quick fixes no matter how attractive - or even how popular those instant soultions may be.

[Siripon]

What astonished me- and I think many farang- at the time, was the aquiescence- if not outright support of the 'drug killings' on the part of almost ALL the Thais that I knew. And as I think we all agree, whether the victims were dealers or not is completely beside the point. Unless a trial- conducted transparantly by an impartial judiciary proved them guilty- every one of them was, in the eyes of the law,- Thai law- innocent.

Yet the society at large scarcely batted an eye. Even during the glory days of last spring, very few of Taksin's most vocal opponents even raised this issue- unless they were courting the NGO/human rights types or enumerating the sins of Taksin to the foreign community.

I know- and I'm sure we all do- people who were at best uninterested in the 'human rights' dimension of the drug wars- -- but now- in their zeal to "get Takky"- have suddenly become champions of habeas corpus and the notion that even suspected drug dealers are entitled to due legal process. (Equally amusing is the way that some that I know have suddenly become fanatical advocates of the most draconian interpretation of tax law!- this transformation occurred at about the same time, curiously- within the last six months).

But what I find hardest to swallow - is how those same people, (and trust me, three years ago neither the murder of suspected drug dealers nor the crude and arbitrary way in which taxes were treated here, concerned those good folk one bit) tjpse same evangelists of the LAW- =don't see much wrong with ignoring the fact that their heros just- tore up the nation's constitution and with tanks on the streets, took it upon themselves to change the government.

Once again, law was circumvented in the interest of expedience. Expedience vs law may solve short term problems- but in the long term- as Taksin is discovering- sooner or later people will learn why the law of the land must take precedence over extrajudicial, extralegal- and yes, extraparliamentary quick fixes no matter how attractive - or even how popular those instant soultions may be.

Regarding your first point,Thais are used to seeing the rich and well connected be above the law, so there's no:'in the eyes of the law they are all innocent' idealism.

Thais know the workings of the police, and at times the judiciary, too well, if you are recent to Thailand check out the case of Wan Chalerm , the son of a formerly influential politician and the blatant shooting of a police officer.

The big dealers were beyond the law. So raw justice is approved of by most communities. It's the same with bandits and mafia.

Let them die in a hail of bullets.

Secondly, the rapid spread and quickly rampant use of methamphetamines scared most Thais; from use by truck drivers it was suddenly appearing in schools,discos and universities, the withdrawal and 'high' effects were frightening, their kids seemed to be vulnerable, you couldn't smell it, see it growing but it was becoming ubiquitous.

Again, let them have it.

Regarding taxes, changing laws, etc, I have to disagree with you. For a long time those in the know, ie educated people, have realised the wrongs Thaksin had committed; why do you think the demonstrations had such support?

You should know the coup leaders had to tear up the constitution to avoid breaking the law, and more importantly, if the coup had never happened a bloodbath certainly would have.

Which would you prefer?

[sriracha john]

I think you didn't get it yet.

"Farang", spelled with an "a", is a...

h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y

one would think you might empathize with others who have similar difficulties a bit more...

but I expect that's expecting too much...

Unbelievable.

Don't you have anything better to do than go through my nearly 2000 posts in order to make a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread topic?

Generally that is called s-t-a-l-k-i-ng...

By who? You?

Perhaps you are unaware of how "search" function on TV works. Using 2 simple words, it took all of 3 minutes to find, quote, and post your hyprocritical posts.

Off topic? Should I further quote all the off topic posts you've made here? That would certainly take more than 3 minutes, but it would be worth it. An additional worthwhile quote would be all the derogatory names you have called various posters in this thread.

You keep restating the same tiresome things over and over again. You say people only focus on Thaksin. They don't. You say the killings won't be fully investigated. Nobody knows that. Not even someone with your supposed connections and various unnamed sources and high level contacts... You say that Thaksin wasn't the overwhelming force behind the drug war. He was.

As is usual in almost all of your "nearly 2000 posts", Plus described them best when he said:

Troll.

[blaze]

What astonished me- and I think many farang- at the time, was the aquiescence- if not outright support of the 'drug killings' on the part of almost ALL the Thais that I knew. And as I think we all agree, whether the victims were dealers or not is completely beside the point. Unless a trial- conducted transparantly by an impartial judiciary proved them guilty- every one of them was, in the eyes of the law,- Thai law- innocent.

Yet the society at large scarcely batted an eye. Even during the glory days of last spring, very few of Taksin's most vocal opponents even raised this issue- unless they were courting the NGO/human rights types or enumerating the sins of Taksin to the foreign community.

I know- and I'm sure we all do- people who were at best uninterested in the 'human rights' dimension of the drug wars- -- but now- in their zeal to "get Takky"- have suddenly become champions of habeas corpus and the notion that even suspected drug dealers are entitled to due legal process. (Equally amusing is the way that some that I know have suddenly become fanatical advocates of the most draconian interpretation of tax law!- this transformation occurred at about the same time, curiously- within the last six months).

But what I find hardest to swallow - is how those same people, (and trust me, three years ago neither the murder of suspected drug dealers nor the crude and arbitrary way in which taxes were treated here, concerned those good folk one bit) tjpse same evangelists of the LAW- =don't see much wrong with ignoring the fact that their heros just- tore up the nation's constitution and with tanks on the streets, took it upon themselves to change the government.

Once again, law was circumvented in the interest of expedience. Expedience vs law may solve short term problems- but in the long term- as Taksin is discovering- sooner or later people will learn why the law of the land must take precedence over extrajudicial, extralegal- and yes, extraparliamentary quick fixes no matter how attractive - or even how popular those instant soultions may be.

[Johpa]

There were also far more sinister killings performed by death squads, mostly led by border police officers, and staffed by a mix of police and right wing militia, many of them veterans of the very similar communist killings. Nobody really knows, or has proof, who ordered them, how high up the chain went, and where the chain went. Not all chains lead to Thaksin.

Are you suggesting that there are 60 year old "veteran" hitmen running about who belong to long clandestine cells of Krating Deng or Nawapol?