Bringing Thaksin To Account

[hammered]

Any nation fighting a drug problem (which would include, uhmm... ALL nations) have a criminal justice system whereby those suspected of involvement in the drug trade are identified and subsequently investigated. They might not all be called a blacklist, but then again... thousands aren't necessarily executed on the streets, either. Thaksin is the one man who distorted a common police practice and turned it into a murdering spree.

The issue of the failure to stem the drug trade in Thailand is the refusal and inability of the government to go after the primary players, some of whom over the decades have been high ranking members of the government and society indeed, including high sakdina holders. (I believe one of the tourist sites up at Mae Salong remains the villa of former PM Kriangsak.) The major players, financiers, and bankers in Bangkok are never challenged as they are part and parcel of the Bangkok elite. Thus it was when opium and heroin ruled the roost and thus it remains in the age of meth-amphetamines now that pressure by the US and the DEA has caused the substances to change. To get a better understanding of the larger picture one could read McCoy's opus The Politics of Heroin, just about anything by Achaan Phasuk, but specifically her book Guns, Girls, Gambling, Ganja, and look for more recent articles by Chiang Mai's own Bertril Lintner.

The extra-judicial killings were strictly symptomatic relief, with no pretense of rooting out the cause of the problem. Sort of like taking aspirin for a migraine headache, the symptoms go away for awhile, but the cause of the headache is not targeted. Nobody in the Thai politic wants this cash cow to be sacrificed. But the open selling of drugs to young teenagers in the schools had gotten so out of control in some provinces that I speculate it actually caused the major players in Bangkok to loose face and condone the action lest a public outcry forced them to confront a more serious challenge to their business model.

But now that some have totally misunderstood my personal position on the matter, l might as well take it up another notch for sake of the debate.

The extra-judicial killings, from the perspective of the local villagers, probably saved more lives than were sacrificed. Across the country, if the open drug trade had continued unabated, the death toll from accidents and crimes related to drug use would have certainly been greater than 3,000. And most of those fatalities, specifically traffic victims and victims of domestic violence would have been innocents. Now I know there have been many claims that some of those killed during the extra-judicial killings were not involved in the drug trade, but those individuals that I was told about who were killed were all acknowledged to have been involved. Now I am sure there were some older scores settled, but knowing Thai society, I would imagine that many of those who pleaded that their loved ones were innocent were doing so in order to save some face.

There is the rather famous albeit, somewhat fortuitously, non-fatal incident where Yuth dooyen earned his nickname, which seemed to target innocents.

Another aspect not often mentioned but which in at least two villages in the Northern region occurred is where a few addicts were blown away but the main dealers in both villages were left alone. In both cases these major dealers were Thai Rak Thai canvassers and local influential people.

[marshbags]

Any nation fighting a drug problem (which would include, uhmm... ALL nations) have a criminal justice system whereby those suspected of involvement in the drug trade are identified and subsequently investigated. They might not all be called a blacklist, but then again... thousands aren't necessarily executed on the streets, either. Thaksin is the one man who distorted a common police practice and turned it into a murdering spree.

The issue of the failure to stem the drug trade in Thailand is the refusal and inability of the government to go after the primary players, some of whom over the decades have been high ranking members of the government and society indeed, including high sakdina holders. (I believe one of the tourist sites up at Mae Salong remains the villa of former PM Kriangsak.) The major players, financiers, and bankers in Bangkok are never challenged as they are part and parcel of the Bangkok elite. Thus it was when opium and heroin ruled the roost and thus it remains in the age of meth-amphetamines now that pressure by the US and the DEA has caused the substances to change. To get a better understanding of the larger picture one could read McCoy's opus The Politics of Heroin, just about anything by Achaan Phasuk, but specifically her book Guns, Girls, Gambling, Ganja, and look for more recent articles by Chiang Mai's own Bertril Lintner.

The extra-judicial killings were strictly symptomatic relief, with no pretense of rooting out the cause of the problem. Sort of like taking aspirin for a migraine headache, the symptoms go away for awhile, but the cause of the headache is not targeted. Nobody in the Thai politic wants this cash cow to be sacrificed. But the open selling of drugs to young teenagers in the schools had gotten so out of control in some provinces that I speculate it actually caused the major players in Bangkok to loose face and condone the action lest a public outcry forced them to confront a more serious challenge to their business model.

But now that some have totally misunderstood my personal position on the matter, l might as well take it up another notch for sake of the debate.

The extra-judicial killings, from the perspective of the local villagers, probably saved more lives than were sacrificed. Across the country, if the open drug trade had continued unabated, the death toll from accidents and crimes related to drug use would have certainly been greater than 3,000. And most of those fatalities, specifically traffic victims and victims of domestic violence would have been innocents. Now I know there have been many claims that some of those killed during the extra-judicial killings were not involved in the drug trade, but those individuals that I was told about who were killed were all acknowledged to have been involved. Now I am sure there were some older scores settled, but knowing Thai society, I would imagine that many of those who pleaded that their loved ones were innocent were doing so in order to save some face.

There is the rather famous albeit, somewhat fortuitously, non-fatal incident where Yuth dooyen earned his nickname, which seemed to target innocents.

Another aspect not often mentioned but which in at least two villages in the Northern region occurred is where a few addicts were blown away but the main dealers in both villages were left alone. In both cases these major dealers were Thai Rak Thai canvassers and local influential people.

Thanks Hammered,

Your lastest post for me, magnifies the true intentions of Thaksin ect. which i find so disturbing.

If his intentions had been to genuinely rid Thailand of this curse then surely he would have gone after the major dealers to dry the source up.

NOT silenced the ones who could have been a major influence in exposing them ?????????????

( Be it successful or otherwise long term, for those who would argue that it would only start again. )

Instead he had a totally false / different agenda in that he wanted to use these victims as collaterol to further his political standing while keeping the big boys who he depends on for support in their positions of getting mega gains from this evil trade, and keeping them on his V.I.P. list.

Even more disturbing is how ruthless his aims where and his considered opinion which surely points to the fact that the victims where unimportant and therefore expendable.

How scarery this action and it,s implications are to Thailand considering they are from the head of the government who,s job it is to make the under achievers lives more positive and .....................

" WORTHWHILE. "

Not " WORTHLESS "

marshbags

[sriracha john]

War on drugs returns to bite Thaksin

Thai law does not address crimes against humanity, so human-rights activists and legal advocates leading the charge against Thaksin are pushing the new government, which took office last month, to ratify the UN convention on the International Criminal Court (ICC), which could charge him, said Kraisak Choonhavan, former senator and chairman of the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee. "The ICC is the key," Kraisak said. "Over 100 countries have become signatories, so charges could be brought against him in The Hague, where the ICC is based, and he could be tried, say, in England." Kraisak added that with Thaksin's wealth and influence in Thailand, "It would be very difficult to try him here," but others involved in the effort want him to face a court in the country where the purported crimes were committed. There might be disagreement on the venue for the trial, but the reason for it unifies the group. On January 14, 2003, Thaksin ordered local authorities to make lists of suspected drug dealers but gave them only two weeks to draw them up so they were not accurate, National Human Rights Commissioner Wasan Panich said. The war on drugs then started on February 1, 2003, with the hastily made lists, and the Interior Ministry sent the governors of Thailand's 76 provinces a notice that there were three ways to reduce the number of drug dealers: arrests, extrajudicial killings or death by other causes, Wasan charged. "We should take action against Thaksin for issuing such a policy, which triggered a wave of murders," Wasan said. In the first three months of the campaign, 2,598 alleged drug offenders were killed. "Thaksin and his government committed crimes against humanity," and his government should be held accountable, said Somchai Homlaor, chairman of the Human Rights Committee of the Lawyer's Council. At the time, cries against the campaign were stifled in a media partly owned and much bullied by the Thaksin government and his friends although it did see coverage in the foreign press and foreign governments stated they were concerned by the number of deaths. In Thailand, some government officials reluctantly went along with the campaign because they feared disciplinary measures if they refused. Investigations moved at a snail's pace during Thaksin's time in power, but that could change now that he was overthrown in a bloodless military coup on September 19.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=114443

Edited November 24, 2006 by sriracha john

[Galong]

But remember my fellow Americans, we're supposed to boycott Myanmar for human rights' abuses.

I think it's called selective hypocracy. :-)

[marshbags]

The Latest Quote:-

Taken from todays Nation.

Sat, November 25, 2006 : Last updated 0:10 am (Thai local time)

Families of victims of extrajudicial killings seek Kraisak's help

Relatives of those killed during the previous government's 2003 war on drugs in Nakhon Ratchasima yesterday urged former senator Kraisak Chonhavan to help call for a re-opening of cases believed to have been committed by government officials.

Among the plaintiffs gathered at Kraisak's home were the relatives of Trakul Yito, a former Tambon Ban Soi Dao administration organisation official in Pak Chong district, who was gunned down on his dairy farm on August 1, 2003.

The relatives said the murder was certainly carried out by government officials because Trakul had a land dispute with a senior civil servant and had filed a lawsuit against the official for corruption.

Trakul's name later appeared on a blacklist as a Pak Chong drug dealer. He was also accused of being a cattle thief.

Another case concerned 17-year-old schoolboy Chaowat Suwantha, who was shot in the head by a group of gunmen in a pickup truck in Huai Thalaeng district on March 12, 2003.

Chaowat's father Weerasak Suwantha said the boy had previously reported to police due to his previous arrest for taking yaba and was about to join a drug rehabilitation programme on March 13.

Weerasak added that a friend of Chaowat who had a similar drug-abuse history and was about to join the same rehab programme was also gunned down while helping his father fix a motorbike.

Kraisak said government officials caused as many as 2,500 deaths during the 2003 war on drugs but relatives of the victims had kept quiet for fear they too would be killed.

Unquote.

Please go to the url for the full article.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/25...al_30019913.php

Yet more disturbing news on some of the victims of this evil crime, courtesy of the CEO Thaksin

and the local authorities acting on his orders to carry out these executions.

I would like to suggest that many more than the number of victims quoted in this article, which go back to 2003 statistics, are a bit on the conservative side on the estimates of recent times.

Not forgetting the unofficial ( not officially registered ) statistics of course.

What more do you doubters need in the way of information and facts, while remembering this is about human collateral and suffering and the many as of yet innocent victims and their families.

Innocent in the fact that the not one human being was tried and found guilty,

How frightening these implications are on freedom, rights and justice.

May the guilty be convicted and at the very least incarcerated for the rest of their lives.

Incidently Sadam was sentenced to death for a number of victims murdered on his authority and on his watch as CEO / LEADER of his country, IRAQ.

Under 200 unfortunate souls in this disturbing instance for further information if anyone isn,t familiar with it.

marshbags and

Edited November 25, 2006 by marshbags

[marshbags]

Taken from todays perspective in the Bangkok Post

Part quote:

Perspective >> Sunday November 26, 2006

COMMENTARY

Toward Rome

THONGBAI THONGPAO

Early this month, the Iraqi court handed down a death sentence on former president Saddam Hussein for a crime against humanity related to the killing of 148 Iraqi Shia in 1982.

Saddam had denied the charge, saying the court neither had the jurisdiction nor the neutrality to try him. He was not alone in claiming this - the Human Rights Watch issued a statement after the verdict was handed down that the trial was flawed and unsound.

At the same time, a call was made in Thailand for the prosecution of the extra-judicial killing of some 2,500 people in the so-called war against drugs initiated by Thaksin Shinawatra's government.

Commenting on the issue, three experts - a human rights commissioner, the chairman of the human rights plan of the Lawyers Council of Thailand, and a former chairman of the Senate's Foreign Affairs Committee - agreed that Mr Thaksin could be prosecuted for a crime against humanity since the number of victims far exceeds that which Saddam was convicted for. They also pledged to call for the incumbent government to ratify the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC), a pre-requisite to prosecution. So far, the government has not given any comment on the issue.

The ICC is an independent, permanent court that tries persons accused of serious crimes of international concern, namely genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes.

As of Nov 1 this year, there are 104 states parties and 139 signatories to the treaty which created and governs the ICC. The court is allowed to prosecute relevant crimes committed either in the territory of a state party or by a national of a state party. State parties must co-operate with the court's prosecutions. This includes the surrender of suspects to the court if requested.

Thailand signed the treaty on Oct 2, 2000, but has yet to ratify it. Under customary international law, a state that has signed but not ratified the treaty is required only to refrain from acts which would defeat the objectives and purposes of the treaty.

It remains unclear why previous governments did not ratify the treaty that was signed six years ago. Now the decision falls on the government of Surayud Chualanont, who has pledged righteousness, and justice in his administration.

In my view, Thais stand only to gain from ratification. It provides people with protections against torture or mass murder. Like the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, such a treaty serves as a deterrent for abuse of power. But in prosecuting these cases, we have to bear in mind one simple fact. Since extra-judicial killings are committed by officials, mostly the police, it is unlikely that they will find anything illegal if they are in charge of the investigations. We need not look far to find a testament to this.

Unquote.

Please go to the following url for the complete article:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Perspective/26Nov2006_pers006.php

I cannot see Thaksin getting out of this one.

The infamous acts against him in this instance are starting to gather pace and will only get more publicity as article after article are published.

It will not go away even if the Thai courts are incapable of prosecuting him to the full.

As the article says, it will also bring to the fore all the individual abuses that the HRH have asked Thaksin about during his watch as CEO and premier.

By statements alone that he personally made to enhance political standing ect. he has signed his own fate.

It is all on record for anyone who wishes to read / listen to it and cannot be inexplicably lost or whatever else they usually use to get rid of the evidence.

He could never have imagined the implications of it all, but then again arrogance got the better of his judgement this time for a change. Kaaaaaaarma is coming me thinks.

marshbags

Edited November 26, 2006 by marshbags

[sriracha john]

Thaksin uninvolved with extrajudicial killings says counsel

BANGKOK - Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra cannot be held responsible for the extrajudicial killings of some 2,500 people during his government's war on drugs campaign, his legal advisor Noppadol Pattama said on Sunday.

"I confirm that Police Lieutenant Colonel Thaksin and the then government did not get involved with the murders of drug suspects. It is an attempt to relate the former PM to an unfair theory that could tarnish his reputation," Mr. Noppadol told a press conference.

The legal advisor of the ousted PM toppled by a bloodless coup on September 19 spoke following former senator Kraisak Choonhavan's announcement on Friday that he would petition the Justice Ministry's Department of Special Investigation and the National Human Rights Commission to take action against his client for extrajudicial killings of drug trafficking suspects over the last several years.

Mr. Kraisak's opinion was supported by Somchai Homla-or, the Chairman of Thailand's Human Rights Committee of the Thai Lawyers Society.

Dismissing both Sen. Kraisak's and Mr. Somchai's comments, Mr. Noppadol said, "It is an unjustifiable attempt to involve former PM Thaksin with the human rights violation issue."

He revealed that Thaksin is currently vacationing in Beijing, China and plans to travel around many Asian countries until the end of the year. For the time being the telecommunications-tycoon-turned-politician does not plan to return to Thailand although the martial law imposed by the Council for National Security (CNS) right after the coup is likely to be lifted soon.

"I don't think former PM Thaksin will return to Thailand as soon as martial law is lifted. He may wait to talk to senior CNS officials before making a decision," Mr. Noppadol said.

When asked about Thanksin's future in political arena, Mr. Noppadol was uncertain.

"If the political situation remains as it is, the former PM may wash his hands of politics as always requested by his family. It's a future though," Mr. Nopadol said. "He is still member of Thai Rak Thai party."

- MCOT

[sriracha john]

DSI takes on drugs war case

Double murder first investigation of many

The mysterious murder of a young couple who won first prize in the government lottery will be the first of a number of cases expected to be investigated by the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) following widespread allegations of extra-judicial killings during the previous government's war on drugs. The move was initiated by Justice Minister Charnchai Likhitjitta, who last week obtained details of the investigation outcome from former Nakhon Ratchasima senator Kraisak Choonhavan. The double murder is among 40 that families of those that died during ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's war on drugs have brought to the attention of the Lawyers Council of Thailand and the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC). Nikom Unkaew, 31, and his wife Kanya, 27, were both shot dead by gunmen on March 28, 2003 in Sab-sadao village, Khon Buri district, Nakhon Ratchasima. They left behind two young sons. Local police said they found 17 ''ya ba'' tablets hidden in their pick-up truck at the crime scene. Before the killings, Kanya's mother, Kaew Phumala, said police visited the victims' house and asked about their rising wealth suspecting that it was linked to the drugs trade in the area. But Kanya and her husband denied the allegations, saying they were innocent. The young couple were construction workers who became wealthy after winning the jackpot in the government lottery draw of May 16, 2001. Soon after the windfall, they moved back to their local village to run a grocery shop. Shortly after the shooting, their parents repeatedly asked the government to investigate the murders. But despite three years of requests, they did not receive a single response from the previous administration. Following their failure to get an answer from the government, they decided to take the case to the NHRC and the Office of the Narcotics Control Board. The agencies found that the couple had won first prize in the lottery amounting to six million baht and that their names had never been on any blacklist of drugs suspects before. As a result of the findings, the narcotics control board has already returned all seized assets including a car, a pick-up truck and some land to the family of the dead couple. ''Since the deaths of my daughter and son-in-law my life has become very difficult. I have to feed my grandchildren who are just three and 10 years old. The money earned from the lottery prize is drying up,'' said Mrs Kaew, 70, who makes a living from the grocery shop set up by her children. She also said she was worried about her grandchildren's future as her and her husband were old and wouldn't be able to care of them for much longer. The former senator last week urged the government to ratify the convention on the International Criminal Court so Mr Thaksin could be tried for crimes against humanity, saying families of the victims pinned their hopes on the interim government. He said the Chuan Leekpai government was about to ratify the convention when its term ended and it was not re-elected. However, Noppadol Pattama, a legal adviser to the Shinawatra family, has rejected the accusation that Mr Thaksin is culpable for the killings. ''Mr Thaksin and his government were not involved in any extra-judicial killings,'' he said. Mr Thaksin was wrongly ''accused'' of such involvement and the accusation had defamed him, the legal adviser said.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/27Nov2006_news06.php

Edited November 27, 2006 by sriracha john

[marshbags]

Perspective >> Sunday November 26, 2006

A FINAL INJUSTICE

Not only were innocent people killed in the war on drugs, some of them were framed even after the life had gone out of them, writes SUPARA JANCHITFAH

Sunan Yindee looks at the body of Chakkapan Srisa-ard, her nine-year-old nephew killed by police gunfire during the war on drugs in February 2003. — BOONNARONG BHUDHIPANYA

Mrs Oil (not her real name) made a decent income growing and selling fruit tree seedlings in Lom Kao district of Phetchabun province. Her husband was a government official attached with the Ministry of Public Health.

In January 2003 police searched Oil's house, apparently looking for drugs, but they didn't find anything. A little later, at the peak of the war on drugs, Oil and her husband went to the police station to explain that they were not involved with drugs. Officials at the station asked them to submit a report on April 23, 2003. Oil was killed on April 22 while returning home from a local market.

Her body was sent to the district hospital for an autopsy. In the hospital preparation room for the funeral rite, with 10 relatives standing outside the door, police claim they found 18 amphetamine pills in a plastic bag under the bed the dead woman was lying in, according to police testimony before the National Human Rights Commission. She was totally naked. There were no hospital officials in the room when the police entered the room to take fingerprints.

The police called the relatives to come into the room so that they could show them the pills. However, the doctor who had previously conducted the autopsy testified that during the autopsy he did not see any amphetamines.

The police separated Oil's death into two cases. On March 18, 2004, it was ruled that there was no evidence as to who murdered Oil and also that there was no evidence that she had drugs in her possession when she was killed. This conclusion came after her relatives brought the case to the attention of the NHRC. Oil was past caring, but the damage had already been done to her family.

Go to the following url for the full article.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/261106_Perspect...006_pers002.php

Unquote.

Relating to the S.J.'s post no. 97 and what Noppadol's quoted regarding denial.

This statement made by " Noppadol Pattama ", Thaksins mouthpiece i find particularly offensive to all the victims and their families.

Quote:-

BANGKOK - Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra cannot be held responsible for the extrajudicial killings of some 2,500 people during his government's war on drugs campaign, his legal advisor Noppadol Pattama said on Sunday.

"I confirm that Police Lieutenant Colonel Thaksin and the then government did not get involved with the murders of drug suspects. It is an attempt to relate the former PM to an unfair theory that could tarnish his reputation," Mr. Noppadol told a press conference.

Unquote.

That they could be party to such an obscene denial in light of everything that the Thai citizens and anyone present here at the time witnessed, is beyong my comprehension.

Rather than show regret for having been the " CEO " leader and therefore accountable for it,s enforcement, let alone being responsible, they choose to make ridiculous / false statements like this.

In doing so they keep rubbing salt into the wounded souls of these poor families when they should be emphathising with their suffering and showing remorse.

No comment would have been more suitable to say the least.

marshbags

Edited November 27, 2006 by marshbags

[hammered]

Perspective >> Sunday November 26, 2006

A FINAL INJUSTICE

Not only were innocent people killed in the war on drugs, some of them were framed even after the life had gone out of them, writes SUPARA JANCHITFAH

Sunan Yindee looks at the body of Chakkapan Srisa-ard, her nine-year-old nephew killed by police gunfire during the war on drugs in February 2003. — BOONNARONG BHUDHIPANYA

Mrs Oil (not her real name) made a decent income growing and selling fruit tree seedlings in Lom Kao district of Phetchabun province. Her husband was a government official attached with the Ministry of Public Health.

In January 2003 police searched Oil's house, apparently looking for drugs, but they didn't find anything. A little later, at the peak of the war on drugs, Oil and her husband went to the police station to explain that they were not involved with drugs. Officials at the station asked them to submit a report on April 23, 2003. Oil was killed on April 22 while returning home from a local market.

Her body was sent to the district hospital for an autopsy. In the hospital preparation room for the funeral rite, with 10 relatives standing outside the door, police claim they found 18 amphetamine pills in a plastic bag under the bed the dead woman was lying in, according to police testimony before the National Human Rights Commission. She was totally naked. There were no hospital officials in the room when the police entered the room to take fingerprints.

The police called the relatives to come into the room so that they could show them the pills. However, the doctor who had previously conducted the autopsy testified that during the autopsy he did not see any amphetamines.

The police separated Oil's death into two cases. On March 18, 2004, it was ruled that there was no evidence as to who murdered Oil and also that there was no evidence that she had drugs in her possession when she was killed. This conclusion came after her relatives brought the case to the attention of the NHRC. Oil was past caring, but the damage had already been done to her family.

Go to the following url for the full article.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/261106_Perspect...006_pers002.php

Unquote.

Relating to the S.J.'s post no. 97 and what Noppadol's quoted regarding denial.

This statement made by " Noppadol Pattama ", Thaksins mouthpiece i find particularly offensive to all the victims and their families.

Quote:-

BANGKOK - Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra cannot be held responsible for the extrajudicial killings of some 2,500 people during his government's war on drugs campaign, his legal advisor Noppadol Pattama said on Sunday.

"I confirm that Police Lieutenant Colonel Thaksin and the then government did not get involved with the murders of drug suspects. It is an attempt to relate the former PM to an unfair theory that could tarnish his reputation," Mr. Noppadol told a press conference.

Unquote.

That they could be party to such an obscene denial in light of everything that the Thai citizens and anyone present here at the time witnessed, is beyong my comprehension.

Rather than show regret for having been the " CEO " leader and therefore accountable for it,s enforcement, let alone being responsible, they choose to make ridiculous / false statements like this.

In doing so they keep rubbing salt into the wounded souls of these poor families when they should be emphathising with their suffering and showing remorse.

No comment would have been more suitable to say the least.

marshbags

Even in denials of responsibility it is customary to express regret for those killed needlessly and offer sympathy to the families. To not have expressed regret certainly does not make Mr. Thaksin look good. Maybe the once efficient propoganda/marketing/PR machine is starting to falter.

It is also interesting that these people who come from TRT controlled areas now feel confident to start to speak out more. This could also be a sign that the TRT machinary of control is crumbling. I remember being in a small northern village around May this year where a late night hushed group came together to ask my wife what the truth about Mr. Thakisn was, as no negative discussion of him was tolerated in the village. Now if a few months down the line and with him gone and his apparatus of control failing it can only be a good thing if some expressions against him are being voiced. It is not long ago that it was so dangerous to do this.

[ColPyat]

Now if a few months down the line and with him gone and his apparatus of control failing it can only be a good thing if some expressions against him are being voiced. It is not long ago that it was so dangerous to do this.

Apart from a some other increasingly dangerous topics, now it's dangeroud to express support for TRT, or even dissent to the present government.

The ruler changed, not the rules though.

[Siripon]

I don't know which papers the colonel reads but if he reads the Thai papers he will see there are many columnists analysing, praising and criticising the government. The political cartoons often spoof Khun Surayud or General Sonti.

From my readings of the Bangkok Post and The Nation it seems the same there.

Thaksin's censorship was much more insidious, for newspapers any criticism and adverts were withdrawn, both AIS and government.

For TV or radio, any critics were quickly removed.

Khun Surayud and General Sonti listen to others, they are trying to restore a democratic system after its destruction by a meglomaniac.

No bloodshed so far, so far , so good.

[younghusband]

I don't know which papers the colonel reads but if he reads the Thai papers he will see there are many columnists analysing, praising and criticising the government. The political cartoons often spoof Khun Surayud or General Sonti.

From my readings of the Bangkok Post and The Nation it seems the same there.

Thaksin's censorship was much more insidious, for newspapers any criticism and adverts were withdrawn, both AIS and government.

For TV or radio, any critics were quickly removed.

Khun Surayud and General Sonti listen to others, they are trying to restore a democratic system after its destruction by a meglomaniac.

No bloodshed so far, so far , so good.

Fair point that Thaksin's influence was more insidious.I have been quite impressed recently by the Nation in particular post-coup, following its rather silly anti-Economist period.Let's see how things go.I certainly trust General Surayud, though not approving of the coup.I was impressed with his recent interview on CNBC where he made it clear he would not renege on his view that the military should not interfere in politics, and that the decision to agree to become PM was the hardest he had ever taken.I think he represents the best Thai qualities -humility, charm, integrity.I will certainly be giving him the benefit of the doubt.

General Sonti has yet to prove he is of this calibre, and it is now up to him to demonstrate his integrity.Tick tock, tick tock........

[Tony Clifton]

Now if a few months down the line and with him gone and his apparatus of control failing it can only be a good thing if some expressions against him are being voiced. It is not long ago that it was so dangerous to do this.

Apart from a some other increasingly dangerous topics, now it's dangeroud to express support for TRT, or even dissent to the present government.

The ruler changed, not the rules though.

I'd say it's now HILARIOUS to express support towards TRT, not dangerous at all. Dissent to the present government is dangerous? You have to be joking right? Unless you are a relative of Thaksin/Pojaman family or a member or thei vast entourage.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Tony Clifton

[ColPyat]

I'd say it's now HILARIOUS to express support towards TRT, not dangerous at all. Dissent to the present government is dangerous? You have to be joking right? Unless you are a relative of Thaksin/Pojaman family or a member or thei vast entourage.

No, i am not joking.

We still have martial law. Thai newspapers and TV stations have very clear guidelines from the CNS what they are allowed to publish, and what not. One known example of media infringement was the ITV crew that interviewed the taxi driver who later commited suicide and after screening was called in and reprimanded by the government. I am not exactly up to date, but until beginning of november all TV stations still had soldiers in the editorial offices.

If you care to read the forum rules concerning political postings you can read this, and even though it was not enforced yet, this rule is still valid:

All media was today ordered by ICT to exercise censorship of any news critical of the coup-makers and the new military regime. Offenders face up to six months in jail, a fine of up to Bt10,000, or both.

Yes, Thaksin was more insidious with his media interference by withdrawing advertising. Now, under the martial law we have open censorship with clear threat of penalties.

Edited November 27, 2006 by ColPyat

[Tony Clifton]

Exactly, because threat of penalties wasn't clear previous to the coup. It did not stop with Thaksin withdrawing advertising, you were either fired from the tv station, or the building was surrounded by hired motorcycle taxi drivers, the tax man was sent for a surprise visit with a vengeful purpose and god knows what other kinds of threats were used at the time. Much worse than open censorship with clear threat of penalties.

Back to topic.

Extra judicial killings went on, he was aware of it, did nothing as PM to stop it, because he thought of or was told of a sinister plan and aggreed to it, praised it in public, backed it up, got it rolling and let it roll.

[ColPyat]

Exactly, because threat of penalties wasn't clear previous to the coup. It did not stop with Thaksin withdrawing advertising, you were either fired from the tv station, or the building was surrounded by hired motorcycle taxi drivers, the tax man was sent for a surprise visit with a vengeful purpose and god knows what other kinds of threats were used at the time. Much worse than open censorship with clear threat of penalties.

I believe you have yet to understand the meaning of ideals such as freedom of the media or freedom of speach, and why they are so important in a democratic system with transperacy, checks and balances.

Media is supposed to be the fourth estate, not a tool to support only your views.

Edited November 27, 2006 by ColPyat

[Tony Clifton]

Understand the meaning of ideals such as freedom of the media or freedom of speech? Transparency, checks and balances? <deleted>??? Most of that had mostly been blown away by Thaksin and TRT and YOU supported them, defended their actions

And now YOU tell ME I have yet to understand the meaning of ideals? *sigh*

Freedom of the media was quasi non-existent when I moved here a few years ago. People feared, only a few dared to talk, most who did risked lives or carreers. As for freedom of speech, a close friend for example, runs his own business, would only whisper when talking about Thaksin until last April. He now proudly calls him ''Hiaaaa'' aloud for everyone to hear.

The huge difference was quite obvious between my country of origin and Thailand under the Thaksin regime. No lesson to learn there, sorry.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Tony Clifton

[cclub75]

A "sensational" assertion like said Bangkok Post :

Coup leader and army commander Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin has charged that the Thaksin Shinawatra government "executed" suspected Islamic insurgent leaders extradited by Malaysia to Thailand.

The sensational assertion came on the eve of a two-day trip to Malaysia by Gen Sonthi.

He said that the reported killings of Muslim suspects during the Thaksin era had made Malaysia reluctant to hand over suspected insurgents.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=114515

Now it becomes interesting... Because it involves a third party. If Malaysia is really angry, then they should cooperate and give infos.

Killing of "drugs dealers", killing of "insurgents" in the south, killing of lawyers and other human rights activits... It starts to make a lot of blood...

Edited November 27, 2006 by cclub75

[sriracha john]

I don't know which papers the colonel reads but if he reads the Thai papers he will see there are many columnists analysing, praising and criticising the government. The political cartoons often spoof Khun Surayud or General Sonti.

From my readings of the Bangkok Post and The Nation it seems the same there.

Thaksin's censorship was much more insidious, for newspapers any criticism and adverts were withdrawn, both AIS and government.

For TV or radio, any critics were quickly removed.

Khun Surayud and General Sonti listen to others, they are trying to restore a democratic system after its destruction by a meglomaniac.

No bloodshed so far, so far , so good.

Fair point that Thaksin's influence was more insidious.I have been quite impressed recently by the Nation in particular post-coup, following its rather silly anti-Economist period.Let's see how things go.I certainly trust General Surayud, though not approving of the coup.I was impressed with his recent interview on CNBC where he made it clear he would not renege on his view that the military should not interfere in politics, and that the decision to agree to become PM was the hardest he had ever taken.I think he represents the best Thai qualities -humility, charm, integrity.I will certainly be giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Indeed, the PM is quite an accomplished speaker. It's refreshing to hear someone speak with such sincerity, intelligence, and compassion. From his APEC speeches in Vietnam to addressing the foreign media correspondents in Bangkok, he has been very impressive with his second language skills. I've pointed out his fluency to many Thai children as something to aspire to. It's lightyears ahead of the pseudo-PhD PM we had before who spoke like a fumbling, bumbling Elmer Fudd and who had the sincerity of the proverbial snake in the grass.

Edited November 28, 2006 by sriracha john

[jumnien]

Thaksin's gone - get over it!

This all really reminds me of the Bill Clinton era and the absolutely relentless whining of right-wing radio and press. Bill Clinton murdered Vince Foster, he was corrupt, Monica, he was sending allthe US jobs to Mexico, he was selling the US to foreigners, etc. etc etc.

The truth is Bill Clinton was the best Republican president of the 20th century. His pro-business domestic and non-interventionist foreign policies are truly missed in this Bush age of irresponsible "don't tax and spend, spend, spend" domestic policy coupled with reckless and inept war-mongering.

So, I say, Bill Clinton and Thaksin really weren't that bad unless you believe the ridiculous right wing press machines that hated them all along. To quote the Nation or the Bangkok Post, as if they were neutral observers, is absurd! They wanted him out, they got him out, and now THEY are in! The sky didn't fall and it is not falling.... Move on!

[sriracha john]

Drug deaths to be probed

PM to reopen cases of extra-judicial slayings

Prime Minister Gen Surayud Chulanont has vowed to reopen cases of extra-judicial killings during the 'war on drugs' campaigns of the deposed administration. Former Nakhon Ratchasima senator Kraisak Choonhavan said Gen Surayud made the pledge when they met at Government House yesterday. Mr Kraisak was spearheading a petition calling for the re-opening of cases of extra-judicial slayings in a bid to seek the prosecution of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra for the state's draconian actions against drug-related suspects that led to more than 2,500 deaths nationwide. According to Mr Kraisak, the prime minister said the petition was in line with the government's plans for judicial reform. The ex-senator, who had received complaints from around 40 families affected by the violent drug suppression, said he asked the prime minister to set up a special panel to probe the cases and make the issue part of the national agenda. He said he asked Gen Surayud to punish Mr Thaksin and policy-level officials, rather than those at the operational level. Mr Kraisak also handed information on human rights violations during Mr Thaksin's term to Gen Surayud yesterday. Somchai Homla-or, chairman of the human rights panel under the Lawyers Council of Thailand, urged the interim government to seriously investigate human rights violations during the tenure of the Thaksin government so that witnesses would be confident of their safety and provide information. Meanwhile, Gen Surayud yesterday instructed police and anti-drugs authorities to strictly observe human rights and the rule of law in dealing with drug suspects. ''Our work [drugs suppression] must stick to human rights and the rule of law. We will not do anything illegal. As state officials we have to make this matter clear first,'' said Gen Surayud in his speech to an estimated 300 senior police and anti-drugs officials at the launch of a new anti-drugs campaign, which will last from this Friday to Sept 30 next year.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/28Nov2006_news13.php

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you see that, Thakky?????? It means you don't go around with a hit list of political/business opponents and anyone else you or your underlings want to get rid of for any reason you or they want. It means you avoid the direct and random murders of innocent men, women and children. He11uva concept, isn't it?

[sriracha john]

Thaksin's gone - get over it!

He's gone when the crematorium door closes shut.

[marshbags]

Thaksin's gone - get over it!

He's gone when the crematorium door closes shut.

Let,s hope s**t burns in the case S.J.

marshbags

[jumnien]

Thaksin's gone - get over it!

He's gone when the crematorium door closes shut.

Let,s hope s**t burns in the case S.J.

marshbags

I agree. But, make the same two comments about the present administration and I'm afraid you will find the meaning of the word censorship in a way that didn't previously exist....

[younghusband]

I don't know which papers the colonel reads but if he reads the Thai papers he will see there are many columnists analysing, praising and criticising the government. The political cartoons often spoof Khun Surayud or General Sonti.

From my readings of the Bangkok Post and The Nation it seems the same there.

Thaksin's censorship was much more insidious, for newspapers any criticism and adverts were withdrawn, both AIS and government.

For TV or radio, any critics were quickly removed.

Khun Surayud and General Sonti listen to others, they are trying to restore a democratic system after its destruction by a meglomaniac.

No bloodshed so far, so far , so good.

Fair point that Thaksin's influence was more insidious.I have been quite impressed recently by the Nation in particular post-coup, following its rather silly anti-Economist period.Let's see how things go.I certainly trust General Surayud, though not approving of the coup.I was impressed with his recent interview on CNBC where he made it clear he would not renege on his view that the military should not interfere in politics, and that the decision to agree to become PM was the hardest he had ever taken.I think he represents the best Thai qualities -humility, charm, integrity.I will certainly be giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Indeed, the PM is quite an accomplished speaker. It's refreshing to hear someone speak with such sincerity, intelligence, and compassion. From his APEC speeches in Vietnam to addressing the foreign media correspondents in Bangkok, he has been very impressive with his second language skills. I've pointed out his fluency to many Thai children as something to aspire to. It's lightyears ahead of the pseudo-PhD PM we had before who spoke like a fumbling, bumbling Elmer Fudd and who had the sincerity of the proverbial snake in the grass.

I don't disagree with most of this but I would be a little careful of recommending the PM as a role model to Thai children in terms of English language skills.It's his manner and delivery that's so impressive and I think we both can agree on that.

The politician who stands head and shoulders above the rest (that I have heard anyway) in terms of sheer quality of English is the rising Democrat Korn Chavakanij.Abhisit's also very good but they I suppose have both had the advantage of being educated at elite schools in England.

[ColPyat]

Understand the meaning of ideals such as freedom of the media or freedom of speech? Transparency, checks and balances? <deleted>??? Most of that had mostly been blown away by Thaksin and TRT and YOU supported them, defended their actions

And now YOU tell ME I have yet to understand the meaning of ideals? *sigh*

Freedom of the media was quasi non-existent when I moved here a few years ago. People feared, only a few dared to talk, most who did risked lives or carreers. As for freedom of speech, a close friend for example, runs his own business, would only whisper when talking about Thaksin until last April. He now proudly calls him ''Hiaaaa'' aloud for everyone to hear.

The huge difference was quite obvious between my country of origin and Thailand under the Thaksin regime. No lesson to learn there, sorry.

If you would have moved here earlier than "a few years ago", you might have realised that Thai press freedom was never all what it was made out to be either. Yes, it was maybe the most free press of the region, but that does not say that much really, if you look at how the neigboring countries have handled press freedom.

The media here was always as corrupt as the rest of society, and always tended towards selfcensorship.

And even though Thaksin did indeed exercise pressure on the media, i would say the press was still more free than in most, if not all countries of the region.

Yes, Thaksin did exercise pressure on the media, nevertheless, you have had critical articles all the time in most newspapers. Less though in TV, but TV always was less critical than newspapers.

And, i have to repeat myself, i have never supported Thaksin or TRT, how many times do i have to write that?

Just because i don't make idiotic and simplistic comparisms, such as between Thaksin and Hitler, and because i view some of his policies as actually beneficial does not make me a supporter of Thaksin.

Maybe if you would have been here a bit longer you would realise that things were far from ideal before Thaksin became PM. People had a lot of expectations of Chuan 2 after the crises, and his government disappointed most. Chuan 2 excelled by doing nothing at all to help the plight of the rural poor, and that is the main reason the Democrats were not re-elected.

But what shall i say - you haven't been here at that time. Give it a few more years, and you will see yourself that chances are more than slim that any substantial improvements will happen anytime soon.

The problem is not primarily Thaksin, but a completely archaic system of which Thaksin is just a product of. And this system was only reinforced by the coup, and the vested interests supporting the coup.

[sriracha john]

Thaksin's gone - get over it!

He's gone when the crematorium door closes shut.

Let,s hope s**t burns in the case S.J.

marshbags

I agree. But, make the same two comments about the present administration and I'm afraid you will find the meaning of the word censorship in a way that didn't previously exist....

I have no reason to make the same comment about the present administration.

[sriracha john]

I don't know which papers the colonel reads but if he reads the Thai papers he will see there are many columnists analysing, praising and criticising the government. The political cartoons often spoof Khun Surayud or General Sonti.

From my readings of the Bangkok Post and The Nation it seems the same there.

Thaksin's censorship was much more insidious, for newspapers any criticism and adverts were withdrawn, both AIS and government.

For TV or radio, any critics were quickly removed.

Khun Surayud and General Sonti listen to others, they are trying to restore a democratic system after its destruction by a meglomaniac.

No bloodshed so far, so far , so good.

Fair point that Thaksin's influence was more insidious.I have been quite impressed recently by the Nation in particular post-coup, following its rather silly anti-Economist period.Let's see how things go.I certainly trust General Surayud, though not approving of the coup.I was impressed with his recent interview on CNBC where he made it clear he would not renege on his view that the military should not interfere in politics, and that the decision to agree to become PM was the hardest he had ever taken.I think he represents the best Thai qualities -humility, charm, integrity.I will certainly be giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Indeed, the PM is quite an accomplished speaker. It's refreshing to hear someone speak with such sincerity, intelligence, and compassion. From his APEC speeches in Vietnam to addressing the foreign media correspondents in Bangkok, he has been very impressive with his second language skills. I've pointed out his fluency to many Thai children as something to aspire to. It's lightyears ahead of the pseudo-PhD PM we had before who spoke like a fumbling, bumbling Elmer Fudd and who had the sincerity of the proverbial snake in the grass.

I don't disagree with most of this but I would be a little careful of recommending the PM as a role model to Thai children in terms of English language skills.It's his manner and delivery that's so impressive and I think we both can agree on that.

The politician who stands head and shoulders above the rest (that I have heard anyway) in terms of sheer quality of English is the rising Democrat Korn Chavakanij.Abhisit's also very good but they I suppose have both had the advantage of being educated at elite schools in England.

Yes, those two speak English very well, also.

For Thaksin, it's mind-boggling that someone who alledgedly completed and verbally defended a doctoral thesis in America could come across so unintelligent in the language that he supposedly did those tasks in.

It was also refreshing to have the current PM take on questions by the foreign media correspondents and not be waving either a "go" or "no go" traffic handsign.

Edited November 28, 2006 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

Hi, i just feel the pressing urge to make a completely inane comment so that my handle tops the list of threads.