Israel admits mistakenly killing Palestinian bystander said to be ’15-year-old boy’

[Morch]

Another misconception in an attempt to deflect.

Illegal Zionist colonists driving on an for Israelis only apartheid road and an IDF army of occupation protecting them are not innocent people.

Do you know, for a fact, that the passengers in the vehicles attacked were Israeli? Or that they were illegal settlers? Or what their political affiliations were?

Do you know they weren't?

It is almost 100% certain that they were Israelis. Technically from what I have read a Supreme Court decision allowed Palestinians to use the roads, but de facto they are Israeli only, because the IDF hassle Palestinians with frequent time consuming checks while waiving Israeli number plates through.

It is quicker in the end for Palestinians to use the less well maintained minor roads.

http://972mag.com/israels-new-police-chief-architect-of-segregated-west-bank-roads/111017/

Presumably the stone throwers were targetting Israeli number plates.

I'm not the one making concrete claims without a shred of evidence. You are.

Being Israeli does not imply that they were illegal settlers, nor says anything about their political affiliations. An Israeli number plate could belong to an Arab citizen, to a B'tselem worker or pretty much anyone else.

A hospital spokeswoman said the wounded included two Israeli men who also hold other citizenships and a pregnant Belgian.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/22/world/middleeast/israel-palestinian-violence.html?_r=0

More details on route 443 can be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_443_(Israel)#Use_by_Palestinian_traffic

As an aside, Gal Hirsch mentioned in your link, never actually became the police chief.

[Morch]

Sorry having probs with Quote formatting.

Morch wrote..

>>the soldiers apparently did not know that they were shooting at civilians, nor that they were unarmed.

Precisely...shoot to kill; ask questions later. Nobody was attacking the IDF.

That is the reckless, indiscriminate shooting that is the crux of the complaint, but which you seem to find acceptable behavior in a domestic law enforcement situation.

And once more you skip over the part where all this occurred following a Palestinian attack on vehicles. In this context, the soldiers actions were intended to stop the perpetrators. Whether their actions conformed to ROE is under investigation. I daresay that had they hit the ones previously carrying out the attack, your response would be pretty similar.

The IDF soldiers would not have to be under direct attack in order to open fire, enough that risk to others or neutralizing credible potential threat can be proved.

This is not exactly your ordinary domestic law enforcement situation, and even in such cases, mistakes happen. This is why there are two investigations being carried out.

[Morch]

Sad news from 'cursed lands' aka middle east as always.

Was it a mistake?

Total bs and again a bloody murder from Israeli occupying rogue army.

Kill palestinians and call it a mistake all the time.

And who will pay for those mistakes? Of course families of the murdered palestinians while murderer soldiers enjoying their time and bragging about how they kill palestinians and get away by just saying 'it was a mistake'

Israel kills, steals land, cuts water, bombs around and they cannot hide behind words like it was a mistake.

These are all intentional actions by Israel.

Blocking an ambulance is a total disrespect for human rights and was that a mistake too??!

And those injured tourists, I wonder who goes Israel for tourism. To see the bombs and rockets maybe or wonderful sight of a phosphorus bomb?! They are basically new brainwashed recruits from us or elsewhere helping rogue state israel.

So it looks like israel wants trouble and when palestinians kill some innocent israelis, they will just say 'it was a mistake' then.

Look where we come now. A nazi like state Israel.

It was innocent jewish people subject to a holocausts and they do the same for palestinians basically and like hitler, they will pay the price sooner or later and israel will be remembered like nazi germany a hundred years later. Israel will never be remembered well.

Another low-info rant without substance.

Claiming it was not a mistake - but not bothering to actually support this with anything but bile.

Rouge army - rouge how? Does the IDF make its own rules or does it follow government policies? Do other armies operate differently?

Brag about the killing - where, in relation to this story, did this appear? Guess no issues when expressions of joy on Palestinian streets following terrorist attacks.

Blocking medical crews - no support apart from single Palestinian source. Other sources say wounded were evacuated to Palestinian and Israeli hospitals.

Wounded by Palestinian attack - no support for all nonsense claims provided.

And the "obligatory" Nazi comparisons, brought up when one cannot actually make his argument.

[Galactus]

Sad news from 'cursed lands' aka middle east as always.

Was it a mistake?

Total bs and again a bloody murder from Israeli occupying rogue army.

Kill palestinians and call it a mistake all the time.

And who will pay for those mistakes? Of course families of the murdered palestinians while murderer soldiers enjoying their time and bragging about how they kill palestinians and get away by just saying 'it was a mistake'

Israel kills, steals land, cuts water, bombs around and they cannot hide behind words like it was a mistake.

These are all intentional actions by Israel.

Blocking an ambulance is a total disrespect for human rights and was that a mistake too??!

And those injured tourists, I wonder who goes Israel for tourism. To see the bombs and rockets maybe or wonderful sight of a phosphorus bomb?! They are basically new brainwashed recruits from us or elsewhere helping rogue state israel.

So it looks like israel wants trouble and when palestinians kill some innocent israelis, they will just say 'it was a mistake' then.

Look where we come now. A nazi like state Israel.

It was innocent jewish people subject to a holocausts and they do the same for palestinians basically and like hitler, they will pay the price sooner or later and israel will be remembered like nazi germany a hundred years later. Israel will never be remembered well.

Another low-info rant without substance.

Claiming it was not a mistake - but not bothering to actually support this with anything but bile.

Rouge army - rouge how? Does the IDF make its own rules or does it follow government policies? Do other armies operate differently?

Brag about the killing - where, in relation to this story, did this appear? Guess no issues when expressions of joy on Palestinian streets following terrorist attacks.

Blocking medical crews - no support apart from single Palestinian source. Other sources say wounded were evacuated to Palestinian and Israeli hospitals.

Wounded by Palestinian attack - no support for all nonsense claims provided.

And the "obligatory" Nazi comparisons, brought up when one cannot actually make his argument.

clearly rogue. everything is clear, what evidence? evidence on how they murder palestinians? states like israel not following international laws and acts against human rights called rogue states. same as north korea now and iran before etc.

you mean evidence like this?:

you are living in denial brother. you sound like a clever person sometimes but i believe you, deep inside, contradict with yourself on what you believe and what you say. please open your heart a bit.

and yes. idf members make its own rules and regs and they dont follow any international laws and policies.

ambulance is blocked. do you have any evidence against? why you always ask evidence from me while you cannot provide one?

again, what do you defend morch?

is it ok for israelis to murder palestinians at an ethnic cleansing level? is this incident fair for palestinians?

nazi comparison is a reality. and you accept it or not, israel will be remembered same as nazi germany.

[Morch]

@Galactus

As I said, low-info rants.

Even in the case you linked as "evidence", the IDF command was supportive of investigation & prosecution of the soldier, while right-wing politicians were against it. Once again, "rouge" how? The IDF did not condone the soldier's action, quite the opposite.

How is the IDF conduct markedly different from that of other armies in similar situations? Vague allusions to "international law and policies" (what "policies"?) is just the usual cop out, when unable to support a claim.

Re Ambulance - I merely point out that this bit is essentially based on a single report by Palestinian media. Considering the lack of accuracy and objectivity often presented while reporting on such stories, there is no reason to treat it as fact. On the other hand, there were numerous (Palestinian, Israeli and foreign) sources reporting wounded people being evicted to hospitals.

And again, bringing up ethnic cleansing and Nazi comparisons is simply a pathetic attempt at baiting, when one cannot make his case.

Finlay, I'm am many things, your brother ain't one of them, thankfully. Your ad hominem remarks are redundant as well, yet another example of an inability to present a solid argument.

[dexterm]

@Morch

Apologies...still probs with formatting.

I wrote...

>>IDF self investigations. More Israeli smoke and mirrors deception.

The Occupation's Fig Leaf: Israel's Military Law Enforcement System as a Whitewash Mechanism

"In so doing, not only does the state manage to uphold the perception of a decent, moral law enforcement system, but also maintains the militarys image as an ethical military that takes action against these acts, the report added.

Since the start of the second intifada in late 2000, of the 739 complaints filed by BTselem of Palestinians being killed, injured, used as human shields, or having their property damaged by Israeli forces, roughly 70 percent resulted in an investigation where no action was taken, or in an investigation never being opened.

Only three percent of cases resulted in charges being brought against the soldiers, according to the [btselem] report."

http://www.btselem.o...ations_fig_leaf

Morch wrote..

>>And once again, can you provide instances where countries welcome outside investigation and courts of military actions?

Here's one, since you asked. Investigating the contentious behavior of UK soldiers in a situation very similar to the OP incident in the Occupied West Bank.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry was established in 1998 by British Prime Minister Tony Blair after campaigns for a second inquiry by families of those killed and injured in Derry on Bloody Sunday during the peak of ethno-political violence known as The Troubles.

The inquiry took the form of a tribunal established under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, and consisted of Lord Saville, the former Chief Justice of New Brunswick William L. Hoyt, and John L. Toohey, a former Justice of the High Court of Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_Inquiry

Independent investigations using respected judges from other countries would do much to increase Israeli credibility.

[Morch]

@Morch

Apologies...still probs with formatting.

I wrote...

>>IDF self investigations. More Israeli smoke and mirrors deception.

The Occupation's Fig Leaf: Israel's Military Law Enforcement System as a Whitewash Mechanism

"In so doing, not only does the state manage to uphold the perception of a decent, moral law enforcement system, but also maintains the militarys image as an ethical military that takes action against these acts, the report added.

Since the start of the second intifada in late 2000, of the 739 complaints filed by BTselem of Palestinians being killed, injured, used as human shields, or having their property damaged by Israeli forces, roughly 70 percent resulted in an investigation where no action was taken, or in an investigation never being opened.

Only three percent of cases resulted in charges being brought against the soldiers, according to the [btselem] report."

http://www.btselem.o...ations_fig_leaf

Morch wrote..

>>And once again, can you provide instances where countries welcome outside investigation and courts of military actions?

Here's one, since you asked. Investigating the contentious behavior of UK soldiers in a situation very similar to the OP incident in the Occupied West Bank.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry was established in 1998 by British Prime Minister Tony Blair after campaigns for a second inquiry by families of those killed and injured in Derry on Bloody Sunday during the peak of ethno-political violence known as The Troubles.

The inquiry took the form of a tribunal established under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, and consisted of Lord Saville, the former Chief Justice of New Brunswick William L. Hoyt, and John L. Toohey, a former Justice of the High Court of Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_Inquiry

Independent investigations using respected judges from other countries would do much to increase Israeli credibility.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry link refers to an investigation of events which occurred 28 years before its first session. The handing of the final report took 10 years more. As far as I am aware, the findings did not result in legal steps taken against those involved.

So once again, making it a bit clearer this time, which countries embrace the intervention of outside investigation and courts with regard to military actions?

[DaddyWarbucks]

@Morch

Apologies...still probs with formatting.

I wrote...

>>IDF self investigations. More Israeli smoke and mirrors deception.

The Occupation's Fig Leaf: Israel's Military Law Enforcement System as a Whitewash Mechanism

"In so doing, not only does the state manage to uphold the perception of a decent, moral law enforcement system, but also maintains the militarys image as an ethical military that takes action against these acts, the report added.

Since the start of the second intifada in late 2000, of the 739 complaints filed by BTselem of Palestinians being killed, injured, used as human shields, or having their property damaged by Israeli forces, roughly 70 percent resulted in an investigation where no action was taken, or in an investigation never being opened.

Only three percent of cases resulted in charges being brought against the soldiers, according to the [btselem] report."

http://www.btselem.o...ations_fig_leaf

Morch wrote..

>>And once again, can you provide instances where countries welcome outside investigation and courts of military actions?

Here's one, since you asked. Investigating the contentious behavior of UK soldiers in a situation very similar to the OP incident in the Occupied West Bank.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry was established in 1998 by British Prime Minister Tony Blair after campaigns for a second inquiry by families of those killed and injured in Derry on Bloody Sunday during the peak of ethno-political violence known as The Troubles.

The inquiry took the form of a tribunal established under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, and consisted of Lord Saville, the former Chief Justice of New Brunswick William L. Hoyt, and John L. Toohey, a former Justice of the High Court of Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_Inquiry

Independent investigations using respected judges from other countries would do much to increase Israeli credibility.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry link refers to an investigation of events which occurred 28 years before its first session. The handing of the final report took 10 years more. As far as I am aware, the findings did not result in legal steps taken against those involved.

So once again, making it a bit clearer this time, which countries embrace the intervention of outside investigation and courts with regard to military actions?

That's because it was essentially a ​cold case ​by that time. This one isn't.

The principal stands. Crimes by any countries' military can be prosecuted by international courts - and they often are.

[Morch]

@Morch

Apologies...still probs with formatting.

I wrote...

>>IDF self investigations. More Israeli smoke and mirrors deception.

The Occupation's Fig Leaf: Israel's Military Law Enforcement System as a Whitewash Mechanism

"In so doing, not only does the state manage to uphold the perception of a decent, moral law enforcement system, but also maintains the militarys image as an ethical military that takes action against these acts, the report added.

Since the start of the second intifada in late 2000, of the 739 complaints filed by BTselem of Palestinians being killed, injured, used as human shields, or having their property damaged by Israeli forces, roughly 70 percent resulted in an investigation where no action was taken, or in an investigation never being opened.

Only three percent of cases resulted in charges being brought against the soldiers, according to the [btselem] report."

http://www.btselem.o...ations_fig_leaf

Morch wrote..

>>And once again, can you provide instances where countries welcome outside investigation and courts of military actions?

Here's one, since you asked. Investigating the contentious behavior of UK soldiers in a situation very similar to the OP incident in the Occupied West Bank.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry was established in 1998 by British Prime Minister Tony Blair after campaigns for a second inquiry by families of those killed and injured in Derry on Bloody Sunday during the peak of ethno-political violence known as The Troubles.

The inquiry took the form of a tribunal established under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, and consisted of Lord Saville, the former Chief Justice of New Brunswick William L. Hoyt, and John L. Toohey, a former Justice of the High Court of Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_Inquiry

Independent investigations using respected judges from other countries would do much to increase Israeli credibility.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry link refers to an investigation of events which occurred 28 years before its first session. The handing of the final report took 10 years more. As far as I am aware, the findings did not result in legal steps taken against those involved.

So once again, making it a bit clearer this time, which countries embrace the intervention of outside investigation and courts with regard to military actions?

That's because it was essentially a ​cold case ​by that time. This one isn't.

The principal stands. Crimes by any countries' military can be prosecuted by international courts - and they often are.

Guess it needs spelling out - being an "essentially a ​cold case ​by that time" was what made the inquiry possible.

Further, it was not a trial but an inquiry, and unless I'm mistaken, there were no legal consequences for those involved.

Claiming that it happens often does not make it so (Considering the only example given is the above).

[up-country_sinclair]

This is the Israeli propaganda way:

Lie.

Deny.

When found out...We have no knowledge of that. we'll look into it.

Yes, it's true, but it was a mistake.

Better wait. The matter is under investigation.

Bury war crime.

This has been the occupiers MO for decades, but the world is slowing beginning to wake up to its deceitful nature.

There needs to be UN peacekeepers on the ground to stop the seemingly endless slaughter of innocent civilians.

[DaddyWarbucks]

@Morch

Apologies...still probs with formatting.

I wrote...

>>IDF self investigations. More Israeli smoke and mirrors deception.

The Occupation's Fig Leaf: Israel's Military Law Enforcement System as a Whitewash Mechanism

"In so doing, not only does the state manage to uphold the perception of a decent, moral law enforcement system, but also maintains the militarys image as an ethical military that takes action against these acts, the report added.

Since the start of the second intifada in late 2000, of the 739 complaints filed by BTselem of Palestinians being killed, injured, used as human shields, or having their property damaged by Israeli forces, roughly 70 percent resulted in an investigation where no action was taken, or in an investigation never being opened.

Only three percent of cases resulted in charges being brought against the soldiers, according to the [btselem] report."

http://www.btselem.o...ations_fig_leaf

Morch wrote..

>>And once again, can you provide instances where countries welcome outside investigation and courts of military actions?

Here's one, since you asked. Investigating the contentious behavior of UK soldiers in a situation very similar to the OP incident in the Occupied West Bank.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry was established in 1998 by British Prime Minister Tony Blair after campaigns for a second inquiry by families of those killed and injured in Derry on Bloody Sunday during the peak of ethno-political violence known as The Troubles.

The inquiry took the form of a tribunal established under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, and consisted of Lord Saville, the former Chief Justice of New Brunswick William L. Hoyt, and John L. Toohey, a former Justice of the High Court of Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_Inquiry

Independent investigations using respected judges from other countries would do much to increase Israeli credibility.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry link refers to an investigation of events which occurred 28 years before its first session. The handing of the final report took 10 years more. As far as I am aware, the findings did not result in legal steps taken against those involved.

So once again, making it a bit clearer this time, which countries embrace the intervention of outside investigation and courts with regard to military actions?

That's because it was essentially a ​cold case ​by that time. This one isn't.

The principal stands. Crimes by any countries' military can be prosecuted by international courts - and they often are.

Guess it needs spelling out - being an "essentially a ​cold case ​by that time" was what made the inquiry possible.

Further, it was not a trial but an inquiry, and unless I'm mistaken, there were no legal consequences for those involved.

Claiming that it happens often does not make it so (Considering the only example given is the above).

Many examples of international courts prosecuting war crimes could be given.

Let's hope this case gets a fair and unbiased hearing.

That is doubtful if it is tried in an Israeli military court.

How many IDF soldiers are serving time for war crimes?

I would guess not many.

[tomwct]

Too bad. Wars a bitch!

[Scott]

Posts and replies removed.

[Morch]

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry link refers to an investigation of events which occurred 28 years before its first session. The handing of the final report took 10 years more. As far as I am aware, the findings did not result in legal steps taken against those involved.

So once again, making it a bit clearer this time, which countries embrace the intervention of outside investigation and courts with regard to military actions?

That's because it was essentially a ​cold case ​by that time. This one isn't.

The principal stands. Crimes by any countries' military can be prosecuted by international courts - and they often are.

Guess it needs spelling out - being an "essentially a ​cold case ​by that time" was what made the inquiry possible.

Further, it was not a trial but an inquiry, and unless I'm mistaken, there were no legal consequences for those involved.

Claiming that it happens often does not make it so (Considering the only example given is the above).

Many examples of international courts prosecuting war crimes could be given.

Let's hope this case gets a fair and unbiased hearing.

That is doubtful if it is tried in an Israeli military court.

How many IDF soldiers are serving time for war crimes?

I would guess not many.

Perhaps they could be given, and yet, yourself and others did not give such examples.

Prosecution of war crimes before the ICC is another matter, and far from being a straightforward one at that. Rather, a quite elaborate legal process is involved. It usually does not apply to specific cases nor to low ranking officers and soldiers. The proceedings normally take years, and convictions aren't numerous. All this was covered extensively on previous topics.

[Morch]

This has been the occupiers MO for decades, but the world is slowing beginning to wake up to its deceitful nature.

There needs to be UN peacekeepers on the ground to stop the seemingly endless slaughter of innocent civilians.

Another myth which was discussed extensively on past topics.

The UN Peacekeeping missions normally come about when there is peace to keep, and by agreement of all sides. There is no way this could come about without consent, and that's without getting into the efficiency of UN forces in the Middle East.

[DaddyWarbucks]

That's because it was essentially a ​cold case ​by that time. This one isn't.

The principal stands. Crimes by any countries' military can be prosecuted by international courts - and they often are.

Guess it needs spelling out - being an "essentially a ​cold case ​by that time" was what made the inquiry possible.

Further, it was not a trial but an inquiry, and unless I'm mistaken, there were no legal consequences for those involved.

Claiming that it happens often does not make it so (Considering the only example given is the above).

Many examples of international courts prosecuting war crimes could be given.

Let's hope this case gets a fair and unbiased hearing.

That is doubtful if it is tried in an Israeli military court.

How many IDF soldiers are serving time for war crimes?

I would guess not many.

Perhaps they could be given, and yet, yourself and others did not give such examples.

Prosecution of war crimes before the ICC is another matter, and far from being a straightforward one at that. Rather, a quite elaborate legal process is involved. It usually does not apply to specific cases nor to low ranking officers and soldiers. The proceedings normally take years, and convictions aren't numerous. All this was covered extensively on previous topics.

You concede the point. I don't have to give any examples. Just google it.

Prosecution of war crimes before the ICC is not ​another matter. It is a legitimate way for the Palestinians to defend themselves against Israeli aggression.

Nonviolent resistance is the way forward.

[Morch]

Guess it needs spelling out - being an "essentially a ​cold case ​by that time" was what made the inquiry possible.

Further, it was not a trial but an inquiry, and unless I'm mistaken, there were no legal consequences for those involved.

Claiming that it happens often does not make it so (Considering the only example given is the above).

Many examples of international courts prosecuting war crimes could be given.

Let's hope this case gets a fair and unbiased hearing.

That is doubtful if it is tried in an Israeli military court.

How many IDF soldiers are serving time for war crimes?

I would guess not many.

Perhaps they could be given, and yet, yourself and others did not give such examples.

Prosecution of war crimes before the ICC is another matter, and far from being a straightforward one at that. Rather, a quite elaborate legal process is involved. It usually does not apply to specific cases nor to low ranking officers and soldiers. The proceedings normally take years, and convictions aren't numerous. All this was covered extensively on previous topics.

You concede the point. I don't have to give any examples. Just google it.

Prosecution of war crimes before the ICC is not ​another matter. It is a legitimate way for the Palestinians to defend themselves against Israeli aggression.

Nonviolent resistance is the way forward.

Nonsense cop out. I did not concede anything of the sort. The point made was that you haven't presented any example, despite claiming there were plenty.

How is it not a another matter? The ICC does not usually deal with specific incidents such as mentioned in the OP, and does not normally target low level individuals. May I suggest you familiarize yourself with the subject matter before pronouncing "learned" verdicts?

As for non-violent resistance, the OP started with a violent attack by Palestinians on civilians.

[dexterm]

@Morch

Apologies...still probs with formatting.

I wrote...

>>IDF self investigations. More Israeli smoke and mirrors deception.

The Occupation's Fig Leaf: Israel's Military Law Enforcement System as a Whitewash Mechanism

"In so doing, not only does the state manage to uphold the perception of a decent, moral law enforcement system, but also maintains the militarys image as an ethical military that takes action against these acts, the report added.

Since the start of the second intifada in late 2000, of the 739 complaints filed by BTselem of Palestinians being killed, injured, used as human shields, or having their property damaged by Israeli forces, roughly 70 percent resulted in an investigation where no action was taken, or in an investigation never being opened.

Only three percent of cases resulted in charges being brought against the soldiers, according to the [btselem] report."

http://www.btselem.o...ations_fig_leaf

Morch wrote..

>>And once again, can you provide instances where countries welcome outside investigation and courts of military actions?

Here's one, since you asked. Investigating the contentious behavior of UK soldiers in a situation very similar to the OP incident in the Occupied West Bank.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry was established in 1998 by British Prime Minister Tony Blair after campaigns for a second inquiry by families of those killed and injured in Derry on Bloody Sunday during the peak of ethno-political violence known as The Troubles.

The inquiry took the form of a tribunal established under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, and consisted of Lord Saville, the former Chief Justice of New Brunswick William L. Hoyt, and John L. Toohey, a former Justice of the High Court of Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_Inquiry

Independent investigations using respected judges from other countries would do much to increase Israeli credibility.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry link refers to an investigation of events which occurred 28 years before its first session. The handing of the final report took 10 years more. As far as I am aware, the findings did not result in legal steps taken against those involved.

So once again, making it a bit clearer this time, which countries embrace the intervention of outside investigation and courts with regard to military actions?

Disingenuous response. You asked for an example. I gave one. You attempt to move the goalposts of your question.

"making it a bit clearer this time"

Nice try, no cigar.

Perhaps if Israel co-operated with independent investigations and allowed their soldiers actually to be interviewed unlike as in the Goldstone Inquiry to quote one of many, international observers might have a little more confidence in Israel's transparency and credibility.

[Ulysses G.]

The point made was that you haven't presented any example, despite claiming there were plenty.

Which is typical of the Israel-haters. They usually have no FACTUAL information to back up their dishonest rhetoric. They play word games, make things up out of thin air or cite bogus information from unreliable sources.

[DaddyWarbucks]

The point made was that you haven't presented any example, despite claiming there were plenty.

Which is typical of the Israel-haters. They usually have no FACTUAL information to back up their dishonest rhetoric. They play word games, make things up out of thin air or cite bogus information from unreliable sources.

This thread is full of factual information presented by both sides.

What is conspicuous by its absence is any kind of racism or incitement to violence.

Your charge is groundless.

Have the courage of your convictions and name the ​"Israel-haters" ​along with examples of their "dishonest rhetoric."

​Making slanderous accusations is a typical propaganda ploy.

[Morch]

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry link refers to an investigation of events which occurred 28 years before its first session. The handing of the final report took 10 years more. As far as I am aware, the findings did not result in legal steps taken against those involved.

So once again, making it a bit clearer this time, which countries embrace the intervention of outside investigation and courts with regard to military actions?

Disingenuous response. You asked for an example. I gave one. You attempt to move the goalposts of your question.

"making it a bit clearer this time"

Nice try, no cigar.

Perhaps if Israel co-operated with independent investigations and allowed their soldiers actually to be interviewed unlike as in the Goldstone Inquiry to quote one of many, international observers might have a little more confidence in Israel's transparency and credibility.

Talk about disingenuous...

You gave an "example" which does not make your point. It referred to an investigation launched decades after events unfolded, and took another decade to submit its conclusions. There was no legal jurisdiction over people involved, and as far as I am aware, no steps taken.

This is a far cry from the demands raised earlier by yourself and others on this topic.

The Goldstone inquiry was not "independent" nor "unbiased".

For all the noise made, there still isn't one credible example of claims aired. Lets try again - USA (Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan ), UK (Iraq, Afghanistan), Russia/USSR (the Caucasus, Ukraine, Afghanistan), China (Tibet), Syria (Syria, Lebanon), Egypt (Yemen), Iran (Syria)....etc etc.... Where's that international jurisdiction and legal authority ?

[Galactus]

This is the Israeli propaganda way:

Lie.

Deny.

When found out...We have no knowledge of that. we'll look into it.

Yes, it's true, but it was a mistake.

Better wait. The matter is under investigation.

Bury war crime.

This has been the occupiers MO for decades, but the world is slowing beginning to wake up to its deceitful nature.

There needs to be UN peacekeepers on the ground to stop the seemingly endless slaughter of innocent civilians.

If simply usa stops giving away guns and billions of dollars of their tax payer's money, it should be enough to let israel kneel and finish this bloody vicious circle.

Or an international embargo.

I wonder what US citizens feel while their tax payments are going to a rogue state doing war crimes and murder innocent people?

It is funny when I see pro zionists here saying this murder was a mistake!

So what if tomorrow palestinians kill a 15 years old innocent Israeli and say 'it was a mistake'?

Will you say: 'Oh. Ok. It was a mistake so no problems'?

Be honest! Israel cannot runaway from its war crimes as a rogue state by just saying it was a mistake.

And murderer idf soldiers did this will be whitewashed bc unfortunately no video!

[DaddyWarbucks]

This is the Israeli propaganda way:

Lie.

Deny.

When found out...We have no knowledge of that. we'll look into it.

Yes, it's true, but it was a mistake.

Better wait. The matter is under investigation.

Bury war crime.

This has been the occupiers MO for decades, but the world is slowing beginning to wake up to its deceitful nature.

There needs to be UN peacekeepers on the ground to stop the seemingly endless slaughter of innocent civilians.

If simply usa stops giving away guns and billions of dollars of their tax payer's money, it should be enough to let israel kneel and finish this bloody vicious circle.

Or an international embargo.

I wonder what US citizens feel while their tax payments are going to a rogue state doing war crimes and murder innocent people?

It is funny when I see pro zionists here saying this murder was a mistake!

So what if tomorrow palestinians kill a 15 years old innocent Israeli and say 'it was a mistake'?

Will you say: 'Oh. Ok. It was a mistake so no problems'?

Be honest! Israel cannot runaway from its war crimes as a rogue state by just saying it was a mistake.

And murderer idf soldiers did this will be whitewashed bc unfortunately no video!

Good points that speak to the topic.

The smoke and mirrors of propaganda can't obscure the facts in these cases of cold- blooded murder.

Yes, in this incident ​unfortunately no video... but even if there was, an Israeli court would never deliver justice.

It would be seen as undermining the morale of the IDF.

These sham trials don't mean a thing. What matters is the time actually served by the guilty and the compensation made to the victims family.

That's the reason that international monitoring and a trial venue where an unbiased proceeding can take place are so important.

[Morch]

If simply usa stops giving away guns and billions of dollars of their tax payer's money, it should be enough to let israel kneel and finish this bloody vicious circle.

Or an international embargo.

I wonder what US citizens feel while their tax payments are going to a rogue state doing war crimes and murder innocent people?

It is funny when I see pro zionists here saying this murder was a mistake!

So what if tomorrow palestinians kill a 15 years old innocent Israeli and say 'it was a mistake'?

Will you say: 'Oh. Ok. It was a mistake so no problems'?

Be honest! Israel cannot runaway from its war crimes as a rogue state by just saying it was a mistake.

And murderer idf soldiers did this will be whitewashed bc unfortunately no video!

When cannot post on topic, spread nonsense all over the place.

There are no international sanctions on the horizon, the US intends to sign a new long term aid agreement with Israel, and "rouge state" is catchy soundbite, not a reality. Keep fantasizing, whatever rocks your boat.

If and when the Palestinians will issue a statement to the effect that innocents were killed by mistake, and carry out an investigation, you words may carry some weight. Until then, pretty much hot air. Did Hamas express any regret over the latest terror attack in Tel Aviv? Was there a Palestinian investigation? Or even more on topic - was there any word of regret, from the Palestinian side, regarding the attack on the vehicles, which preceded the OP? Is there any Palestinian condemnation offered or investigation going on?

[Morch]

Good points that speak to the topic.

The smoke and mirrors of propaganda can't obscure the facts in these cases of cold- blooded murder.

Yes, in this incident ​unfortunately no video... but even if there was, an Israeli court would never deliver justice.

It would be seen as undermining the morale of the IDF.

These sham trials don't mean a thing. What matters is the time actually served by the guilty and the compensation made to the victims family.

That's the reason that international monitoring and a trial venue where an unbiased proceeding can take place are so important.

So important that you cannot provide examples of similar policies taken anywhere else.

[dexterm]

There certainly needs to be a more independent, transparent system of inquiry into these frequent extra judicial murders by the IDF.

Instead Israel initially put the fox in charge of the hen-house by allowing Col. Yisrael Shomer to conduct the OP preliminary inquiry. He himself was guilty of a similar murder a year ago when he fired 3 shots at a Palestinian youth from behind as he was fleeing and again offering no danger or threat. No trial, no punishment, no demotion even. So naturally his soldiers follow his example.

Israeli journalist Gideon Levy is scathing and sarcastic of the IDF in today's Haaretz and calls into question the IDF Rules of Engagement which have been trampled upon in this instance .... well worth a read.

"By mistake the soldiers stood on the bridge, by accident they sprayed the car driving on the road below them with heavy fire, without any idea who was in it. Unintentionally they killed the youth, by accident wounded four of his friends seriously. By mistake the soldiers thought the passengers of the car had thrown rocks and poured oil on the road, mistakenly they thought this allowed them to shoot to their hearts' desire http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.726563

[Morch]

There certainly needs to be a more independent, transparent system of inquiry into these frequent extra judicial murders by the IDF.

Instead Israel initially put the fox in charge of the hen-house by allowing Col. Yisrael Shomer to conduct the OP preliminary inquiry. He himself was guilty of a similar murder a year ago when he fired 3 shots at a Palestinian youth from behind as he was fleeing and again offering no danger or threat. No trial, no punishment, no demotion even. So naturally his soldiers follow his example.

Israeli journalist Gideon Levy is scathing and sarcastic of the IDF in today's Haaretz and calls into question the IDF Rules of Engagement which have been trampled upon in this instance .... well worth a read.

"By mistake the soldiers stood on the bridge, by accident they sprayed the car driving on the road below them with heavy fire, without any idea who was in it. Unintentionally they killed the youth, by accident wounded four of his friends seriously. By mistake the soldiers thought the passengers of the car had thrown rocks and poured oil on the road, mistakenly they thought this allowed them to shoot to their hearts' desire http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.726563

And yet you still cannot provide examples of countries allowing such international investigations of their armed forces, or routinely submitting their soldiers to the jurisdiction of international courts.

Gideon Levy puts some of your rants to shame, hardly objective under the best of circumstances.

[Galactus]

There certainly needs to be a more independent, transparent system of inquiry into these frequent extra judicial murders by the IDF.

Instead Israel initially put the fox in charge of the hen-house by allowing Col. Yisrael Shomer to conduct the OP preliminary inquiry. He himself was guilty of a similar murder a year ago when he fired 3 shots at a Palestinian youth from behind as he was fleeing and again offering no danger or threat. No trial, no punishment, no demotion even. So naturally his soldiers follow his example.

Israeli journalist Gideon Levy is scathing and sarcastic of the IDF in today's Haaretz and calls into question the IDF Rules of Engagement which have been trampled upon in this instance .... well worth a read.

"By mistake the soldiers stood on the bridge, by accident they sprayed the car driving on the road below them with heavy fire, without any idea who was in it. Unintentionally they killed the youth, by accident wounded four of his friends seriously. By mistake the soldiers thought the passengers of the car had thrown rocks and poured oil on the road, mistakenly they thought this allowed them to shoot to their hearts' desire http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.726563

And yet you still cannot provide examples of countries allowing such international investigations of their armed forces, or routinely submitting their soldiers to the jurisdiction of international courts.

Gideon Levy puts some of your rants to shame, hardly objective under the best of circumstances.

so basically you say anyone saying things against israeli murders and oppression is not objective, aye morch?

funny. so you just accept things when said by pro zionists? what a sorry state you are in bro.

try to break your chains and remove your blinders!

and topic is about a murder done by idf. you forget about other countries. we criticize them too when a topic opened.

[Galactus]

If simply usa stops giving away guns and billions of dollars of their tax payer's money, it should be enough to let israel kneel and finish this bloody vicious circle.

Or an international embargo.

I wonder what US citizens feel while their tax payments are going to a rogue state doing war crimes and murder innocent people?

It is funny when I see pro zionists here saying this murder was a mistake!

So what if tomorrow palestinians kill a 15 years old innocent Israeli and say 'it was a mistake'?

Will you say: 'Oh. Ok. It was a mistake so no problems'?

Be honest! Israel cannot runaway from its war crimes as a rogue state by just saying it was a mistake.

And murderer idf soldiers did this will be whitewashed bc unfortunately no video!

When cannot post on topic, spread nonsense all over the place.

There are no international sanctions on the horizon, the US intends to sign a new long term aid agreement with Israel, and "rouge state" is catchy soundbite, not a reality. Keep fantasizing, whatever rocks your boat.

If and when the Palestinians will issue a statement to the effect that innocents were killed by mistake, and carry out an investigation, you words may carry some weight. Until then, pretty much hot air. Did Hamas express any regret over the latest terror attack in Tel Aviv? Was there a Palestinian investigation? Or even more on topic - was there any word of regret, from the Palestinian side, regarding the attack on the vehicles, which preceded the OP? Is there any Palestinian condemnation offered or investigation going on?

you mean poor palestinian police with no guns and uniforms will go out of their jurisdiction and investigate things in Israel? and israel will allow that?

speaking about nonsense all over, this must be it maybe?

there are no sanctions but if things go this way with constant israeli murders, sure sanctions will come.

and usa, well if they sign such an agreement again, it means they are helping murderers in a rogue state. but until when? people of us will wake up soon too.

all the world tired with this constant vicious circle created by israel.

[dexterm]

A very good editorial also in Haaretz today

The Military Polices Test: Indict the Israeli Officer Who Shot Mahmoud Badran

Even if Palestinians were throwing rocks as the IDF claims, it was unlawful for the IDF soldiers to open fire on a passing vehicle.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.726817

Again, well worth a read. Can only quote the 3 sentence conclusion [fair usage]

"Nevertheless, the Military Police are obligated to investigate the latest incident quickly and efficiently and indict the officer and his soldiers for this unnecessary killing. Any delay or evasion that results in this case being buried like most of its predecessors will only strengthen the message to IDF soldiers that they are permitted to spray moving cars with live fire and kill stone-throwers or innocent people as they please.

An army whose officers and soldiers behave this way, and which doesnt even put them on trial for it, is an army devoid of all restraint."