So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[ljd1308]

1 minute ago, SgtRock said:

 

And you do not much about the Somali Immigrants in the UK. No more needs to be said.

 

You are correct, it does not matter on an individual level and that was never my point.

 

My point was that if only 14.7% of the working population having an income large enough to be classed as a Net Contributor to the UK ( as individuals ) then NO GROUP of Immigrants to the UK is Net Benefit. it is physically impossible.

 

Not withstanding that there will always be anomalies, for instance, there are only 2 immigrants from ( Place name ) in the UK. The both work in banking and pull salaries in excess of £150K 

Does the bolded bit not then support the fact that immigration isn't an issue? When you write that sentence why is there a need to add the word immigrants if it applies to everyone?

 

"And you do not much about the Somali Immigrants in the UK. No more needs to be said." - I actually think a lot more needs to be said. You are using your personal experience to form an opinion that you have no facts or figures to back up.....it is the exact thing I said about feelings before facts.

[SgtRock]

10 minutes ago, ljd1308 said:

That's what i feared.

 

So basically people need to contribute twice as much as they do to their NI, otherwise they are stealing from Paul to pay Mary.

 

In the UK people do not need to contribute, they are forced to by law. A major difference.

 

Yes, the Government are stealing from the public, robbing Tax to pay pensions.

[ljd1308]

Just now, SgtRock said:

 

They should all be working.

 

The reasons and blame as to why they are in this position are many and varied. There will be very few of those 1.6 + Millions who are not seeking work.

 

Baby steps. Get those in the UK into work. Then worry about bringing in New People. Nothing wrong with controlled immigration of people who have the skills, training and experience that the Country needs. Open borders with free movement is a recipe for disaster.

I think we may have to agree to disagree then as we both have our views that probably won't change

 

But, it is clearly not easy to get those 1.6m to work, so it isn't really an easy or quick fix. Higher immigration would be a quicker and easier solution.

 

I also think the vast majority of immigrants will appreciate being in Britain more and work harder....obviously you will still get the dregs of society, but that is the same with any group of people anywhere.

 

 

My personal belief is that borders should be virtually open and have free movement on one proviso:

When you move to a country you can not receive government benefits for the first 12 months or until you start paying tax(apart from emergency services and education).

That goes for the UK, Australia, America and everywhere in between.

 

 

[ljd1308]

2 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

In the UK people do not need to contribute, they are forced to by law. A major difference.

 

Yes, the Government are stealing from the public, robbing Tax to pay pensions.

Genuine question.... Would you prefer if they didn't? That would leave pensioners with just their NI to get on with.

 

I know you will probably disagree with this based on your user name, but I think the first area of the budget to be stolen from should be the *defence budget.....but that is a discussion for another day.

 

*should really be the "attack" budget.

[SgtRock]

3 minutes ago, ljd1308 said:

Does the bolded bit not then support the fact that immigration isn't an issue? When you write that sentence why is there a need to add the word immigrants if it applies to everyone?

 

"And you do not much about the Somali Immigrants in the UK. No more needs to be said." - I actually think a lot more needs to be said. You are using your personal experience to form an opinion that you have no facts or figures to back up.....it is the exact thing I said about feelings before facts.

 

Why are you twisting things ?

 

You  initially asked for proof one way or another that Immigrants positively contributed to the UK.

 

I posted a series of articles, when taken together, shows that no group as a collective are a net benefit to the UK, including born and bred Brits.

 

What has immigration got to do with whether a current Group in the UK is a Net Gain or a Net loss for the UK.

 

I will reiterate. Whilst there is 1.6+ Million people in the UK who are unemployed, the UK does not need immigrants from anywhere.

 

You can say all you want about the Somali Immigrants in the UK. As a group they are a net drain on the UK, whether you care to take my word for it, I could not care less. The speciality of Somali's in the UK is smoking Khat. £10 Million a year worth, most of them are too stoned to work. Use your google, the info is freely available.

[ljd1308]

3 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Why are you twisting things ?

 

You  initially asked for proof one way or another that Immigrants positively contributed to the UK.

 

I posted a series of articles, when taken together, shows that no group as a collective are a net benefit to the UK, including born and bred Brits.

 

What has immigration got to do with whether a current Group in the UK is a Net Gain or a Net loss for the UK.

 

I will reiterate. Whilst there is 1.6+ Million people in the UK who are unemployed, the UK does not need immigrants from anywhere.

 

You can say all you want about the Somali Immigrants in the UK. As a group they are a net drain on the UK, whether you care to take my word for it, I could not care less. The speciality of Somali's in the UK is smoking Khat. £10 Million a year worth, most of them are too stoned to work. Use your google, the info is freely available.

The only link about Somali immigrants was a wiki link about the numbers, it didn't have any info on their financial status.

 

You then made a couple of references to them negatively, the most recent being about most of them being too stoned to work. I can't find any decent reference to the majority of Somali immigrants in the UK being too stoned to work(granted my search wasn't too thorough). Where do you get these figures from if not anecdotal evidence?

[SgtRock]

Just now, ljd1308 said:

You then made a couple of references to them negatively, the most recent being about most of them being too stoned to work. I can't find any decent reference to the majority of Somali immigrants in the UK being too stoned to work(granted my search wasn't too thorough). Where do you get these figures from if not anecdotal evidence?

 

Try googling the words Khat use in the UK.

 

You can come back and thank me when you find it was a £10 million a year industry in the UK, before it was banned.

[PattayaBoy]

This,



The taxpayer has saved 8.5 billion pounds a year, imported goods will be 8% cheaper, our fishing fleet can fish where it likes, farmers can produce milk again, we can stop Syrians, Turkish, Polish and Greeks freely entering the UK, etc.

Wrong they already said it will not stop immigration at all. Especialy from EU.
If UK wants access to EU markets they have to keep open movenent thing. No cherry pickings said Tusk

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[ljd1308]

I am not arguing the amount of money spent on Khat, 10m doesn't seem that high to me.

 

It must be cheap though, cos based on you stating  "most" Somali immigrants are too stoned to go to work and the amount in the UK(from your other link) it must mean that approx 80k are on it spending just over 100 quid each a year.

 

What drug can get you stoned for an entire year on 100 quid?

[PattayaBoy]

Funny main brexit pusher Farange is getting german passport

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[SgtRock]

1 minute ago, ljd1308 said:

I am not arguing the amount of money spent on Khat, 10m doesn't seem that high to me.

 

It must be cheap though, cos based on you stating  "most" Somali immigrants are too stoned to go to work and the amount in the UK(from your other link) it must mean that approx 80k are on it spending just over 100 quid each a year.

 

What drug can get you stoned for an entire year on 100 quid?

 

Now who is making assumptions with no facts and figures ?

 

Goodbye Troll

[ljd1308]

Just now, SgtRock said:

 

Now who is making assumptions with no facts and figures ?

 

Goodbye Troll

Actually I am just using your facts...

 

You stated most of the 179k Somali's were too stoned to go to work.You then stated they spent 10m pounds a year in it, that equates a little over 100 pounds each.....so how cheap is it? Are most of them really too stoned to work?

 

Or....do you believe something due to your personal experiences that have no basis in your own quoted facts.

[ljd1308]

2 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Now who is making assumptions with no facts and figures ?

 

Goodbye Troll

Oh, and I am not trolling. I wouldn't bother, I just have a genuine desire to understand why you(or anyone else)would blame immigration for the woes in the UK.

[SgtRock]

26 minutes ago, ljd1308 said:

Oh, and I am not trolling. I wouldn't bother, I just have a genuine desire to understand why you(or anyone else)would blame immigration for the woes in the UK.

 

You can, of course produce a post where I have blamed immigration for the UK's woes ?

 

No, you cannot, because it does not exist.

 

This is why you a troll.

[ljd1308]

1 minute ago, SgtRock said:

 

You can, of course produce a post where I have blamed immigration for the UK's woes ?

 

No, you cannot, because it does not exist.

 

This is why you a troll.

I was actually using "you" in the general sense for people blaming immigration, I thought that was clear by the bit in brackets.

 

I apologise that I was not clear enough for you, I will take that on board and try to be clearer with my specific use of "you" in future so as to avoid any misunderstandings.

 

In the interest of correction, I went back and reread the wiki link and realised that I had 170k Somali immigrants rather than the 117k it is. Apologies for that also, but it means with your own figures and statements that you claim, it is actually around 55k people spending 200 pounds each to get too stoned for work......I still find these figures hard to believe and until you can prove that "most" Somali immigrants are too stoned to work I will still think you are basing this more on belief than fact.

 

Hopefully we can move on from this misunderstanding and continue to have a productive exchange of views.

[ljd1308]

1 minute ago, hyku1147 said:

People voted to leave because saying "happy Christmas" in London would eventually  be classified as 'racist hate speech'.

Is something you know for a fact or is it just something you believe?

 

 

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, ljd1308 said:

Is that including the 12% NI payments? Or is it additional? Either way it is pretty bad, but it makes it much worse if it doesnt.

 

That figure will only increase because both inflation and the aging population....which is why immigration is important, especially if you can target 40-50 year olds who will be higher earners(theoretically) and contribute, but not be entitled to the full pension when they retire(I appreciate specific demographics are difficult to target).

 

The UK(and most western countries) have similar problems which can be solved, but only with an open mind. 

The figure is purely income tax.

The figures come from the personal tax summary that you get posted to your page if you use the Inland Revenue website.

I pay income tax so I am partially funding my own state pension as well as having it frozen.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

They should all be working.

 

The reasons and blame as to why they are in this position are many and varied. There will be very few of those 1.6 + Millions who are not seeking work.

 

Baby steps. Get those in the UK into work. Then worry about bringing in New People. Nothing wrong with controlled immigration of people who have the skills, training and experience that the Country needs. Open borders with free movement is a recipe for disaster.

Only people that have never been an employer would make delusional statements like that.

[AlexRich]

22 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Only people that have never been an employer would make delusional statements like that.

 

Not all unemployed, of course, but there are many of them who are happy not to work, and some who just lack the social skills to find and keep work. And for many the benefits they claim are not much less than a weeks wages, and they figure why bother?

[Ricardo]

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

Only people that have never been an employer would make delusional statements like that.

 

I can attest to that, I owned/managed two businesses in a notoriously-high unemployment area in the South-East, for 15-years & 8-years respectively, and I never had anyone come in to ask me about a job.

 

My top-employee was an East-German, trusted & personable & flexible & well-paid !

[GuestHouse]

12 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

I will reiterate. Whilst there is 1.6+ Million people in the UK who are unemployed, the UK does not need immigrants from anywhere.

Very many of the 1.6 million unemployed are unemployable.

 

However Brexit's economic plans might have a cure for that.

 

If Brexit manages to create markets around the world for British turnips, even the most unemployable could be put to work digging for victory.

 

 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, GuestHouse said:

Very many of the 1.6 million unemployed are unemployable.

 

However Brexit's economic plans might have a cure for that.

 

If Brexit manages to create markets around the world for British turnips, even the most unemployable could be put to work digging for victory.

 

 

 

 

Do you think Liam fox is the man to get these great trade deals overseas? Most trade is done with neighbours, for the obvious reason that it is easier logistically - we've kind of messed that one up.

 

The only way you will get the feckless off their backsides is by abolishing their benefits ... but there are genuine claimants who do need a safety net, and most people would be happy to pay taxes to support them.

[GuestHouse]

5 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

 

Do you think Liam fox is the man to get these great trade deals overseas? Most trade is done with neighbours, for the obvious reason that it is easier logistically - we've kind of messed that one up.

 

The only way you will get the feckless off their backsides is by abolishing their benefits ... but there are genuine claimants who do need a safety net, and most people would be happy to pay taxes to support them.

 

I don't dispute any of that. It's Sgt.Rock's statement that is cod's.

 

I'm currently in Korea with a Turkish scientist (PhD in chemical engineering) who works for a British company. The technology he has developed and brought with him to the UK is winning business here in Korea for his employers in the UK. 

 

Sgt.Rock is of course correct, the UK don't need immigrants. Unless of course we want a UK with a growing and developing economy. 

 

Sgt.Rock's 1.6 million unemployed who he argues are why the UK doesn't need immigrants are not going to fill the skills and knowledge gap, nor go out into the wider world and win business for the UK.

 

I think theUK Turnip marketting board is their best bet.

[sprq]

On 24/06/2016 at 0:46 PM, vogie said:

Its called democrasy, just because you don't agree with the vote, well I'm afraid you're going to have to live with it, 17 million people can't be wrong surely? Maybe they're not mad but have different princibles to you.

It was a very bad form of democracy, a referendum with no threshold (50.00000001 % wins) and a campaign full of lies, especially on the Leave side. Furthermore, those 17 million people constitute only a third of the full electorate and that is an appallingly low proportion for propelling such a colossal change in the status of the country. Madness? Yes, by Cameron and all the MPs who voted to set up a referendum in the first place, and then set it up with ridiculously minimal conditions. It was insanity, the insanity of the politicians.

[Henryford]

7 minutes ago, sprq said:

It was a very bad form of democracy, a referendum with no threshold (50.00000001 % wins) and a campaign full of lies, especially on the Leave side. Furthermore, those 17 million people constitute only a third of the full electorate and that is an appallingly low proportion for propelling such a colossal change in the status of the country. Madness? Yes, by Cameron and all the MPs who voted to set up a referendum in the first place, and then set it up with ridiculously minimal conditions. It was insanity, the insanity of the politicians.

 

No different to General Elections where the winner often has only 30% of the total votes and sometimes a very small majority but everyone is happy to accept the result. It is only the losing remainers who complain about democracy. 

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, Henryford said:

 

No different to General Elections where the winner often has only 30% of the total votes and sometimes a very small majority but everyone is happy to accept the result. It is only the losing remainers who complain about democracy. 

 

Agreed. But a general election is reversible ... if the politicians don't deliver they can be replaced within a few years. The decision once implemented is irreversible. It's importance is of a greater magnitude, given that it impacts the country for decades in the future. 

 

[GuestHouse]

3 hours ago, Henryford said:

 

No different to General Elections where the winner often has only 30% of the total votes and sometimes a very small majority but everyone is happy to accept the result. It is only the losing remainers who complain about democracy. 

 

The referendum is completely different from a general election.

 

Firstly, and most obviously, it is 'advisory' on paliament, it is not legally bing. General elections are legally binding, they don't advise parliament, they choose who shall represent the citizens of the UK in parliament.

 

Secondly, the general election is a transfer of sovereignty from the citizens of the UK to parliament, handing power to parliament to pass laws that each and every person under the juridiction of UK law shall be bound by.

 

Thirdly, an elected MP is bound by the duties of his office to representhis constiuancy. All of his constituancy, not just those who voted for him.

 

Parliament is the holder of the powers to make laws and sign/break treaties. Not the government, not the ruling party, not the PM - Parliament.

 

Of the many 'insights' brought out by this referendum are the not too surprising discovery that so many people have no idea how the UK is represented in the EU and the rather shocking revelation that so very many people have next to no idea how the UK democracy functions.

 

The evidence suggests the number of people who lack these very basic understandings of how their lives are governed is around 17,000,000.

 

Fromout of which we have an unusually high density here on TVF.

[Khun Han]

^ Never mind Guesthouse, Germany can hope   .

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

Very many of the 1.6 million unemployed are unemployable.

 

 

 

Quite. the UK has bred a generation that have been taught extremely well by their parents on how to milk the benefit system.

Most employers will say the Jobcentre is a waste of time, it is better to advertise the vacancy and try and get someone that is already working, saves a lot of time and effort.

 

[GuestHouse]

8 hours ago, Khun Han said:

^ Never mind Guesthouse, Germany can hope   .

 

Getting you back on topic, Brexit delivers to the UK an EU in which Germany can present policiy and laws over which the UK will no longer have a veto.

 

Precisely the kind of UK relationship to tge EU that Brexit said the UK needs to escape.