So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Perhaps he's being advised that the government's legal case for exit without parliamentary approval is not as strong as he thought?

"

In October 2016 the Divisional Court will hear a 2/3 day judicial review to determine whether there is a need for Parliamentary authority prior to the giving of notice of withdrawal from the EU under Article 50(1) of the TEU. 

The hearing is listed before a full Court presided by the Lord Chief Justice and has been described as the biggest constitutional case in generations. 

The Supreme Court has been alerted to the possibility of hearing a ’fast track’ leap-frog appeal before the end of the year, in the light of which the Govt. has agreed not to give notice under Article 50 until 2017 pending the Courts’ judgments.  "

http://www.43templerow.co.uk/brexit-the-royal-prerogative-can-the-govt-alone-pull-us-out/ 

[Orac]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Now, if remainers can identify particular British industries that will suffer spectacular losses due to speculated brexit trade tariffs they are all over it like a rash, with pages and pages of posts about job losses and financial ruin, no way back, etc. But, when it's pointed out that German industries (and those of other EU countries of course) will suffer just as badly, they're just a few local difficulties, easily overcome, blah, blah. Such a balanced outlook those remainers have  .

 

On the contrary, i think you will find many of us 'remainers' are well aware of the damage brexit could inflict on other EU countries and the possible negative backlash it could have on us. 

 

Since you refer specifically to Germany it is worth  remembering that it is not that many years ago that they took a massive economic hit to undertake the reunification of East and West Germany so it is not beyond the bounds of possibilities that they would take another, far smaller, economic hit in the interests of achieving a political solution for the EU that the UK is turning its back on.

[Khun Han]

And I think that comparing the re-unification of Germany with the imposition of mutually destructive EU trade tariffs is like comparing apples and oranges.

[Orac]

2 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

And I think that comparing the re-unification of Germany with the imposition of mutually destructive EU trade tariffs is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

Unfortunately the new bar has been set rather low for countries making dodgy decisions that aren't in their economic interests so nothing would surprise me now.

[Khun Han]

Now you're just being silly. I would expect that of certain posters, but it's below you.

[Orac]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 Now you're just being silly. I would expect that of certain posters, but it's below you.

 

 Am not sure why. 

 

I did not see any convincing economic arguments for brexit prior to the refendum and have yet to see anyone put forward a serious plan since that in any way allows us to continue doing business with the EU on similar terms to what we have at the moment.

 

i do think there is a lack of understanding on the nature and complexity of trade deals that are slowly becoming apparent which is why more positive news is not coming out yet - as an example, the CETA deal with Canada which is far simpler than one we would need has not been ratified yet by the EU though negotiations on it started in 2007 and it doesn't acheive one of the Canadian key objectives which was the removal of quotas on beef.

 

i am all ears if you can tell me how we can quickly come up with something to protect our trade with the EU that doesn't trample all over WTO rules even if Germany wants it as well since there are far too many vested interests at play here. 

[Khun Han]

Do you really think that international trade with the UK is going to grind to a halt because we're reaving the EU? Do you really think that all the big businesses and multinationals (you know, the really powerful vested interests) are going to allow a cobbled together confederation to damage their interests? Do you really think that those businesses are going to radically change their business models because a few bureaucrats try to throw their weight around? What world do you live in? Certainly not the one I know. Deals will be done, and big business will carry on doing things the way it wants to without any great upheaval. You remainers need to calm down a bit.

[SgtRock]

20 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

And now that particular arrow has been officially removed from your already weak Remnant quiver, I wait with baited breath for your next, "I told you so" moment?

 

 

Nope. Didn't work for the Soviet Union did it? The British Empire is similarly much diminished. So that's not very convincing at all. Like your repeated posting of news articles that rely heavily on words like 'may', 'could' and 'possibly' when talking about the death spiral that the Brexiteers have orchestrated.

 

Waiting to exhale now so hurry up will you?

 

Of course, the EU is the epitome of solidarity, harmony and co-operation.

 

Not according to Juncker 

 

Quote

In his annual state of the union address to the European parliament, Juncker will say commonality between EU member states has never been so low, with governments everywhere quicker to say what they don’t want from Brussels rather than work together.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/13/jean-claude-juncker-eu-is-facing-existential-crisis

 

With Governments everywhere being quick to say <deleted> EU its not looking to clever for the EU.

 

Just a matter of time. Tick Tock.

[Orac]

6 hours ago, Khun Han said:

Do you really think that international trade with the UK is going to grind to a halt because we're reaving the EU? Do you really think that all the big businesses and multinationals (you know, the really powerful vested interests) are going to allow a cobbled together confederation to damage their interests? Do you really think that those businesses are going to radically change their business models because a few bureaucrats try to throw their weight around? What world do you live in? Certainly not the one I know. Deals will be done, and big business will carry on doing things the way it wants to without any great upheaval. You remainers need to calm down a bit.

 

Of course international trade isn't going to grind to a halt, just rebalance somewhat as we negotiate away access to UK markets in order to acheive concessions from the EU that we already had previously.

 

it is worth noting that it looks like the EU is going to reject the TTIP agreement since it gives too much power to those multinationals.

[NanLaew]

22 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

He doesn't have much choice with words ... the UK is still in the EU? 

...and apparently Project Fear still hasn't got the message.

[Orac]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

...and apparently Project Fear still hasn't got the message.

 

There is a message?  I suppose that is a start though I am facinated to here what it is.

[rockingrobin]

8 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

...and apparently Project Fear still hasn't got the message.

Unfortunately at the present time it would appear that nobody knows where they are going, how to get there, or what they want when they arrive.

 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

...and apparently Project Fear still hasn't got the message.

 

That meaningless cliche's can be dangerous to your wealth?

 

That the UK would become a Turkish enclave?

 

 

[AlexRich]

3 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

Of course, the EU is the epitome of solidarity, harmony and co-operation.

 

Not according to Juncker 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/13/jean-claude-juncker-eu-is-facing-existential-crisis

 

With Governments everywhere being quick to say <deleted> EU its not looking to clever for the EU.

 

Just a matter of time. Tick Tock.

 

Just a matter of time for the EU to look at making the necessary changes to make it work more effectively ... something that the EU doomsayers seem to think is impossible.

 

[Khun Han]

Yes, yes, of course.....the EU's problems are always just minor local difficulties, always easily overcome. Of course, any problems for the UK, and the sky is falling.

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Orac said:

 

There is a message?  I suppose that is a start though I am facinated to here what it is.

 

Oh dear. I was wrong. You aren't above the silliness and condescention. And, before you ask the question, go back and read the threads on brexit for your answer. But I know you won't. You'll just carry on with the deliberate ignorance and condescention. It seems to be the SOP for remainers, like some kind of comfort blanket (there: I've been dragged down to your level  ).

[Orac]

23 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Oh dear. I was wrong. You aren't above the silliness and condescention. And, before you ask the question, go back and read the threads on brexit for your answer. But I know you won't. You'll just carry on with the deliberate ignorance and condescention. It seems to be the SOP for remainers, like some kind of comfort blanket (there: I've been dragged down to your level  ).

 

You omitted the comment I was responding to thus removing the context, to remind you it was this.

 

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

...and apparently Project Fear still hasn't got the message.

 

There are multiple threads on brexit and it is impossible to read all of them however i have tried and even watched right through the movie but, as i said previously,  I have not seen any suggestions of a plan that would match let alone improve our economic situation as it stood prior to the referendum. One of the problems here seems to be that instead of coming up with robust arguments when thorny issues are raised there is an switch away from the problem to an attack on the person asking the question be it accusations of silliness or condescention or, more worryingly, trying to exclude people for their perceived nationality and lack of 'Britishness'.

 

The point I made yesterday which has still not been answered but side tracked by personal sniping was why should we assume that Germany will agree to a trade deal  to negate damage to their automotive industry and therefore in their economic interests when there is clearly a huge political motive against them doing this which is comparable to the whole Brexit referendum where we have chosen to leave the EU for what appear to be more politically motivated reasons than economic ones.

 

 

 

[Khun Han]

Like I said, your questions about brexit aspirations have been answered many times already. The government has repeatedly said they will deliver on those aspirations, and they appear to be moving quickly to get things in place and ready.

 

On changing the subject/prevaricating/distorting, rather than answering questions, it's my experience in these discussions that remainers are the worst culprits for this, with Alex being the worst offender by far, which has resulted in several of us giving up trying to have a serious debate with him. The silly, childish condescention routinely displayed by remainers is probably the biggest obstacle of all to serious debate.

 

My view is that your question about why Germany wouldn't want mutually destructive trade tariffs (it's not just their car industry that will suffer by the way, have a look at the trade balance with the UK) has already been answered by Merkel, when she quickly reigned in Junckers and the other EU motor mouths after they threatened a hard brexit.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

Yes, yes, of course.....the EU's problems are always just minor local difficulties, always easily overcome. Of course, any problems for the UK, and the sky is falling.

 

Who claimed the sky is falling? The argument is that 'outside' of the single market the UK will have a lower level of economic growth in the future than it would have had ... if you can show me a post from someone predicting that the sky would fall I will of course apologise profusely! 

 

[AlexRich]

11 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

Like I said, your questions about brexit aspirations have been answered many times already. The government has repeatedly said they will deliver on those aspirations, and they appear to be moving quickly to get things in place and ready.

 

On changing the subject/prevaricating/distorting, rather than answering questions, it's my experience in these discussions that remainers are the worst culprits for this, with Alex being the worst offender by far, which has resulted in several of us giving up trying to have a serious debate with him. The silly, childish condescention routinely displayed by remainers is probably the biggest obstacle of all to serious debate.

 

My view is that your question about why Germany wouldn't want mutually destructive trade tariffs (it's not just their car industry that will suffer by the way, have a look at the trade balance with the UK) has already been answered by Merkel, when she quickly reigned in Junckers and the other EU motor mouths after they threatened a hard brexit.

 

The reason that you don't engage in debate is because you have no credible answers to the questions posed.

 

As an example, your point yesterday ... German car sales to the UK are 'vital' to their economy? At 0.6% of German GDP in 2015 they are no more than a rounding error.

 

I invited you to provide your own numbers. You just dodge the question ... put it in the "too difficult to answer" section of your in-tray. It appears to be your modus operandi.

 

 

 

 

 

[Orac]

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

Like I said, your questions about brexit aspirations have been answered many times already. The government has repeatedly said they will deliver on those aspirations, and they appear to be moving quickly to get things in place and ready.

 

On changing the subject/prevaricating/distorting, rather than answering questions, it's my experience in these discussions that remainers are the worst culprits for this, with Alex being the worst offender by far, which has resulted in several of us giving up trying to have a serious debate with him. The silly, childish condescention routinely displayed by remainers is probably the biggest obstacle of all to serious debate.

 

My view is that your question about why Germany wouldn't want mutually destructive trade tariffs (it's not just their car industry that will suffer by the way, have a look at the trade balance with the UK) has already been answered by Merkel, when she quickly reigned in Junckers and the other EU motor mouths after they threatened a hard brexit.

 

I am not sure how quickly UKGov is getting  things in place, David Davies took a lot of flack in the commons last week and yesterday to a commitee in the Lords he broached that trading under WTO rules might be a possiblity though he still thought a deal could be reached.

 

There seem to be new voices daily from the EU about how free movement of people is essential to a future deal including the Irish PM this week and this will be a massive hurdle to get over if Theresa May has it as a red line which is why i see the political issues to a deal being far more important than economic once despite what Merkel has said whose own position might be precarious next year.

 

i did find the attached briefing note by Nick Clegg (muppet though he is he is an EU insider) co-authored with Peter Sutherland (not a muppet and former DG of WTO) informative of the ussues being faced.

 

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/libdems/mailings/4093/attachments/original/International_trade.pdf?1473331526

[sandyf]

At the end of the day no one really knows what people actually voted for, strong indications are  that for many it was nothing to do withe question on the ballot paper. Each can put their own view on the result and it would appear that TM thinks that only her interpretation is correct and will try to put a new perspective on parliamentary democracy.

 

The Oxfam view. -  ”Whatever your views on Brexit, the referendum brought divisions within our country to a head, with many people expressing distrust and disconnection with political processes and voting for change in the hope that it would improve their economic position.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/inequality-uk-contributed-to-brexit-oxfam-rich-poor-research-one-per-cent-a7239306.html

 

[Khun Han]

Like  I said, the idea that Germany is going to forfeit the billions of Euros it makes in profit from it's UK car sales, with all the attendant job losses and subsequent damage to it's economy (and that's just their car industry), all for the sake of giving Britain a bloody brexit nose has already been put to bed by Merkel.

[Khun Han]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

At the end of the day no one really knows what people actually voted for, strong indications are  that for many it was nothing to do withe question on the ballot paper. Each can put their own view on the result and it would appear that TM thinks that only her interpretation is correct and will try to put a new perspective on parliamentary democracy.

 

The Oxfam view. -  ”Whatever your views on Brexit, the referendum brought divisions within our country to a head, with many people expressing distrust and disconnection with political processes and voting for change in the hope that it would improve their economic position.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/inequality-uk-contributed-to-brexit-oxfam-rich-poor-research-one-per-cent-a7239306.html

 

 

The Indy has been a leading light in the rearguard 'Project Fear' strategy .

[sandyf]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

The Indy has been a leading light in the rearguard 'Project Fear' strategy .

You are obviously of the opinion that The Independent wrote the report for Oxfam. I see now how you get your facts.

[Khun Han]

13 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

I am not sure how quickly UKGov is getting  things in place, David Davies took a lot of flack in the commons last week and yesterday to a commitee in the Lords he broached that trading under WTO rules might be a possiblity though he still thought a deal could be reached.

 

There seem to be new voices daily from the EU about how free movement of people is essential to a future deal including the Irish PM this week and this will be a massive hurdle to get over if Theresa May has it as a red line which is why i see the political issues to a deal being far more important than economic once despite what Merkel has said whose own position might be precarious next year.

 

i did find the attached briefing note by Nick Clegg (muppet though he is he is an EU insider) co-authored with Peter Sutherland (not a muppet and former DG of WTO) informative of the ussues being faced.

 

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/libdems/mailings/4093/attachments/original/International_trade.pdf?1473331526

 

The negotiations will be tough, no question. Free movement is a no-no. Expect a compromise along quota lines, with certain filters included. A deal will be struck, and life will go on. The fact that Nick Clegg is a former oppo of Jabba The Hut (er, I meant Leon Brittain) is enough to keep him off-limits for me.

[Khun Han]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You are obviously of the opinion that The Independent wrote the report for Oxfam. I see now how you get your facts.

 

No, I'm of the opinion that the Indy cherry picks it's news with regard to Brexit.

 

And yet another example of remainer condescention by the way. Like I said, it's routine behaviour for them .

Edited September 14, 2016 by Khun Han

[sandyf]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

No, I'm of the opinion that the Indy cherry picks it's news with regard to Brexit.

 

And yet another example of remainer condescention by the way. Like I said, it's routine behaviour for them .

So obviously  'cherry picking'  means there is no validity, rubbish the messenger and avoid reality.

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

So obviously  'cherry picking'  means there is no validity, rubbish the messenger and avoid reality.

 

Oxfam has come up with a theory about the Brexit vote, based solely on wealth distribution figures obtained from Credit Suisse. And this is major news in what way?

 

More condescention in Sandyf's quoted reply. Most of the remainers I come up against are quite infantile in this way. Like I said, it's a comfort blanket for them.

[SgtRock]

6 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

Of course, the EU is the epitome of solidarity, harmony and co-operation.

 

Not according to Juncker 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/13/jean-claude-juncker-eu-is-facing-existential-crisis

 

With Governments everywhere being quick to say <deleted> EU its not looking to clever for the EU.

 

Just a matter of time. Tick Tock.

 

It would appear that Tusk has also chimed in

 

Quote

Mr Tusk said it would be a "fatal error" to consider Brexit as a UK-only issue, writing: "Today many people, not only in the UK, think that being part of the European Union stands in the way of stability and security.

"People in Europe want to know if the political elites are capable of restoring control over events and processes which overwhelm, disorientate and sometimes terrify them."

 

http://news.sky.com/story/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-to-stick-together-after-brexit-10577421

 

Now might be a good time to call a halt to the whole thing. Disband the various EU Institutions and set up a single trading Committee to oversee trade between the Member States.

 

Of course that will never happen as the sole remit is a single Federal State.