PM rejects any proposal for an amnesty for political offenders

[heybruce]

"Thing is mate the general was forced into the coup by the AMNESTY for Thaksin and the protests that followed."

"The amnesty was dropped. The protests were fading. The protests could have been ended at any time by the military making it clear there wouldn't be a coup and there would be elections. The coup was unnecessary.

The coup was staged to prevent elections. It was strictly for the benefit of the military and certain parties that can't be mentioned. To think anything else is delusional."

If that was the case then they wouldnt have had to step in but the reds were up to their old tricks and killing innocent people including kids and the ptp were doing nothing about it, in fact they were supporting and cheering them on. As soon as the general jumped in all the violence stopped, the ones causing it were arrested, weapons were seized, the reds were the ones that caused all this under you know who's orders with the ptp letting them have full reign. What Thailand needs are laws to be followed and judges that are prepared to stick to them, this letting these criminals get bail constantly instead of being locked up is bullsh*t, maybe if they were locked up after committing a crime we would see a lot of the problems back off but that would require a proper working legal system that was adhered to. Until face is removed from the equation along with wealth or a hi-so name as a defence we will not see any improvement, all sides need to be done and many of them jailed for what they have done, the blame lies with many on both sides not just the one.

Although I do agree with your last few lines, I must protest and disagree with some of your statement seajae,

You say "the reds were up to there old tricks and killing innocent people including kids and the ptp were doing nothing about it, in fact they were supporting and cheering them on." I think you are very mistaken, the ptp were not supporting any one killing people/kids at all but you and a few last remaining junta huggers keep trying to re-wright history. Yes there were some disgusting low life people that cheered when this was announced and they should be ashamed.

Just like the people that were slaughtered in the protesters in 2010 wouldn't you agree? and please don't try the old they (military) were defending themselves, cause there's plenty of video evidence to show the protesters were being killed some of them volunteer nurses and aid workers in temples, and it was the Dems that gave the order....

Like you said plenty of blame to go around and not just one side, but funny you don't mention that in your yellow defense and hatred of red's.

The people of the north have been victims of the center minority for decades and still slandered/insulted/and treated as non equals and in some cases not even Thai, so yeah they get together and defend their government again and again.

If the military did their job and the police were Aloud to do their job then things could be different, Remember the courts told the ptp that the police could not touch protesters as they are peaceful all the while cutting power/water invading buildings threatening staff to leave work, destroying equipment, plenty of video evidence out there as well the courts are bias and you know it.

maybe you should watch the video of the ptp leaders on stage at the reds rally cheering them on after they had killed a couple of kids, to me that is supporting them, then there were all the red shooters that were not stopped even though police were standing next to them while they were firing, not one red was arrested for any of the killings until the army stepped in, these are all facts that for some reason ptp/red supporters refuse to acknowledge. The reds and yellows are the bain of Thailand politics and should all be arrested but then with the ptp actually supporting the reds while being run by the same man that directs the reds actions its a no brainer as to why the reds were never worried about killing anyone, the govt was behind them 100%.

I don't know of the video you are referring to, can you provide a link?

I don't know of any police standing next to "red shooters" while they are firing and doing nothing. I don't believe it. I challenge you to provide credible evidence.

I don't believe "the govt was behind them 100%", and challenge you to provide evidence of that claim also.

Just because you believe things without evidence doesn't mean others will believe the same things.

Evidence that the military shouldn't run Thailand exists in abundance. The challenge is keeping count of the number of coups, military governments, suspended constitutions, rich generals and human rights violations.

[baboon]

Robblok wrote: Violence wise the red shirts are just far more extreme and the cheering after the killings in Thrat is a good example of it. If not for one of the redshirt leaders realizing how bad it looks PR wise they would not have stopped. And yes it looks bad and nobody forgets it (except the red supporters who fail to admit that the reds are a far more violent bunch)

I support the redshirts and in my opinion their rage against the elite was truly justified.

The illegal government imposed by the military promised an election and then denied one.

If it had happened in my country, I would have been out there on the street with the rest of the "rioters".

If the Junta don't give up and go away with their ill gotten millions then this place will explode and as they say "you aint seen nothing yet"

It reminds me of the lead up to the Russian revolution.

The elite, completely oblivious of the needs of the people after three hundred years of total control.

The seething resentment as their political nominees become criminalised by the government.

The increasing lack of freedom, the suppression of free speech, the lack of any real progress despite the propaganda.

All these ingredients are there now and I believe that it won't take much for the Thais to explode and ransack the citadels of the elite (Bangkok).

I won't be here to see it though, I've made up my mind that this is a situation too dangerous to be around.

I wish it could be different but these elite are prepared to cling to power to the bitter end and so it will be.

really great to know that you support the murdering of innocent kids and adults because you think they have that right to kill people if they dont get what they want/demand, you definitely have the right mental attitdue(or lack of it) to be a red. Anyone that supports any kind of violence is a low life in my opinion especially when it involves the murder of innocent people, mate you really are pathetic

That is a foul assertion, but leaving your accusations of joyful bloodlust aside for a moment, how do you think an ignored and enraged proletariat are going to end up reacting when they feel there are no options left open to them? When they see the candidates they voted for (no matter how crappy and corrupt themselves) being casually swept aside by the same old smug establishment offering nothing other than more of the same?

If you want to call them uneducated and violent that is fine, but be fair and ask the question why this is and how it came about. Thaksin was just a catalyst. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. As I see it, the glue that held an always restive Thai populace together no longer binds, thanks in no small part to 21st century technology, so where do we go from here in order to prevent catastrophe?

[bobmac10]

Robblok wrote: Violence wise the red shirts are just far more extreme and the cheering after the killings in Thrat is a good example of it. If not for one of the redshirt leaders realizing how bad it looks PR wise they would not have stopped. And yes it looks bad and nobody forgets it (except the red supporters who fail to admit that the reds are a far more violent bunch)

I support the redshirts and in my opinion their rage against the elite was truly justified.

The illegal government imposed by the military promised an election and then denied one.

If it had happened in my country, I would have been out there on the street with the rest of the "rioters".

If the Junta don't give up and go away with their ill gotten millions then this place will explode and as they say "you aint seen nothing yet"

It reminds me of the lead up to the Russian revolution.

The elite, completely oblivious of the needs of the people after three hundred years of total control.

The seething resentment as their political nominees become criminalised by the government.

The increasing lack of freedom, the suppression of free speech, the lack of any real progress despite the propaganda.

All these ingredients are there now and I believe that it won't take much for the Thais to explode and ransack the citadels of the elite (Bangkok).

I won't be here to see it though, I've made up my mind that this is a situation too dangerous to be around.

I wish it could be different but these elite are prepared to cling to power to the bitter end and so it will be.

really great to know that you support the murdering of innocent kids and adults because you think they have that right to kill people if they dont get what they want/demand, you definitely have the right mental attitdue(or lack of it) to be a red. Anyone that supports any kind of violence is a low life in my opinion especially when it involves the murder of innocent people, mate you really are pathetic

Seajae let's get one thing straight.

You're not my mate.

Your unflagging support for this Junta, this coup, has been your most notable feature on this forum.

Your attempt to make me out as approving of child murderer is extremely weak and shows your desperation when you are running out of answers or argument.

I have repeated this ad nauseum and will continue to do on this forum.

This power play we are witnessing has NOTHING to do with Thaksin.

In fact there are a number of very powerful business people in Thailand who are working hard to get him back in.

I would not be surprised to see him asked to come back by an interim government when this house of cards collapses.

This is a struggle between the old powerful families who have traditionally run Thailand (elites) and the rest of the population.

The elites will stop at nothing to retain their position of privilege.

Thailand’s elite have been able to impose their version of reality on the country’s people with impunity, jailing people for years simply for expressing their honest opinion or stating objective facts.

Now with modern communication and social media, despite an outdated and dysfunctional education system. the young people of Thailand (and the middle aged too), realise the emperor has no clothes. It's been a con trick to keep them ignorant and in their place.

The red shirt movement is made up of many different political idealists, who will probably break up to form different parties when the time comes.

However, right now they are united in one thing, and that is to get rid of the influence of the elites over Thailand for ever.

Until this is achieved, the struggle will continue.

No military can control a population for ever.

I expect it to become very bloody, and that is because, as I have said before, the elite are totally ruthless and will fight to the death to stay in power.

The military are in step with the elite and will do their bidding until they are defeated.

I won't be here to witness it because it's going to be very messy.

It doesn't have to be, but unless these elites and their puppets give up power, I fear for the worst.

[robblok]

Robblok wrote: Violence wise the red shirts are just far more extreme and the cheering after the killings in Thrat is a good example of it. If not for one of the redshirt leaders realizing how bad it looks PR wise they would not have stopped. And yes it looks bad and nobody forgets it (except the red supporters who fail to admit that the reds are a far more violent bunch)

I support the redshirts and in my opinion their rage against the elite was truly justified.

The illegal government imposed by the military promised an election and then denied one.

If it had happened in my country, I would have been out there on the street with the rest of the "rioters".

If the Junta don't give up and go away with their ill gotten millions then this place will explode and as they say "you aint seen nothing yet"

It reminds me of the lead up to the Russian revolution.

The elite, completely oblivious of the needs of the people after three hundred years of total control.

The seething resentment as their political nominees become criminalised by the government.

The increasing lack of freedom, the suppression of free speech, the lack of any real progress despite the propaganda.

All these ingredients are there now and I believe that it won't take much for the Thais to explode and ransack the citadels of the elite (Bangkok).

I won't be here to see it though, I've made up my mind that this is a situation too dangerous to be around.

I wish it could be different but these elite are prepared to cling to power to the bitter end and so it will be.

really great to know that you support the murdering of innocent kids and adults because you think they have that right to kill people if they dont get what they want/demand, you definitely have the right mental attitdue(or lack of it) to be a red. Anyone that supports any kind of violence is a low life in my opinion especially when it involves the murder of innocent people, mate you really are pathetic

That is a foul assertion, but leaving your accusations of joyful bloodlust aside for a moment, how do you think an ignored and enraged proletariat are going to end up reacting when they feel there are no options left open to them? When they see the candidates they voted for (no matter how crappy and corrupt themselves) being casually swept aside by the same old smug establishment offering nothing other than more of the same?

If you want to call them uneducated and violent that is fine, but be fair and ask the question why this is and how it came about. Thaksin was just a catalyst. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. As I see it, the glue that held an always restive Thai populace together no longer binds, thanks in no small part to 21st century technology, so where do we go from here in order to prevent catastrophe?

Sounds a lot like your justifying the killing of those kids by the reds. Fact remains the reds are the most violent faction. Ghandi seems to have gotten a lot done without violence and the Brits were far more violent as the current junta.

[robblok]

Robblok wrote: Violence wise the red shirts are just far more extreme and the cheering after the killings in Thrat is a good example of it. If not for one of the redshirt leaders realizing how bad it looks PR wise they would not have stopped. And yes it looks bad and nobody forgets it (except the red supporters who fail to admit that the reds are a far more violent bunch)

I support the redshirts and in my opinion their rage against the elite was truly justified.

The illegal government imposed by the military promised an election and then denied one.

If it had happened in my country, I would have been out there on the street with the rest of the "rioters".

If the Junta don't give up and go away with their ill gotten millions then this place will explode and as they say "you aint seen nothing yet"

It reminds me of the lead up to the Russian revolution.

The elite, completely oblivious of the needs of the people after three hundred years of total control.

The seething resentment as their political nominees become criminalised by the government.

The increasing lack of freedom, the suppression of free speech, the lack of any real progress despite the propaganda.

All these ingredients are there now and I believe that it won't take much for the Thais to explode and ransack the citadels of the elite (Bangkok).

I won't be here to see it though, I've made up my mind that this is a situation too dangerous to be around.

I wish it could be different but these elite are prepared to cling to power to the bitter end and so it will be.

really great to know that you support the murdering of innocent kids and adults because you think they have that right to kill people if they dont get what they want/demand, you definitely have the right mental attitdue(or lack of it) to be a red. Anyone that supports any kind of violence is a low life in my opinion especially when it involves the murder of innocent people, mate you really are pathetic

Seajae let's get one thing straight.

You're not my mate.

Your unflagging support for this Junta, this coup, has been your most notable feature on this forum.

Your attempt to make me out as approving of child murderer is extremely weak and shows your desperation when you are running out of answers or argument.

I have repeated this ad nauseum and will continue to do on this forum.

This power play we are witnessing has NOTHING to do with Thaksin.

In fact there are a number of very powerful business people in Thailand who are working hard to get him back in.

I would not be surprised to see him asked to come back by an interim government when this house of cards collapses.

This is a struggle between the old powerful families who have traditionally run Thailand (elites) and the rest of the population.

The elites will stop at nothing to retain their position of privilege.

Thailand’s elite have been able to impose their version of reality on the country’s people with impunity, jailing people for years simply for expressing their honest opinion or stating objective facts.

Now with modern communication and social media, despite an outdated and dysfunctional education system. the young people of Thailand (and the middle aged too), realise the emperor has no clothes. It's been a con trick to keep them ignorant and in their place.

The red shirt movement is made up of many different political idealists, who will probably break up to form different parties when the time comes.

However, right now they are united in one thing, and that is to get rid of the influence of the elites over Thailand for ever.

Until this is achieved, the struggle will continue.

No military can control a population for ever.

I expect it to become very bloody, and that is because, as I have said before, the elite are totally ruthless and will fight to the death to stay in power.

The military are in step with the elite and will do their bidding until they are defeated.

I won't be here to witness it because it's going to be very messy.

It doesn't have to be, but unless these elites and their puppets give up power, I fear for the worst.

Thaksin not elite

Its just replacing one elite by an other elite.. go on dreaming.. but its good to see that violent types are attracted to the red shirts. Your a prime example of it.

[robblok]

I don't know of the video you are referring to, can you provide a link?

I don't know of any police standing next to "red shooters" while they are firing and doing nothing. I don't believe it. I challenge you to provide credible evidence.

I don't believe "the govt was behind them 100%", and challenge you to provide evidence of that claim also.

Just because you believe things without evidence doesn't mean others will believe the same things.

Evidence that the military shouldn't run Thailand exists in abundance. The challenge is keeping count of the number of coups, military governments, suspended constitutions, rich generals and human rights violations.

t the same time the little girls were shot and killed, the core members and leaders of Thaksin's red shirt supporters were meeting in Nakhon Ratchasima. One of the Red Shirt leaders, "Dab Daeng" took the stage and proceeded to announce: "I have good news to tell my red shirt brothers and sisters from all provinces. The PDRC members of Suthep at the protest stage in Khao Saming (Trat) were deservedly given a reception by the locals. Five PDRC people were killed and over 30 injured. The locals welcomed them because they love Suthep a lot…" [1]

Upon hearing this news, many of the Red Shirts cheered, pumping their fists in the air and applauding. While the Red Shirts were cheering the cold blooded murder of two five year old girls, the rest of Thailand wept. This was Saturday night, February 24, 2014.

For Thai people, crying time was not over. On Sunday afternoon, three people, including two more children, were murdered in front of a shopping mall they had just left. They were waiting to get on a "tuk-tuk" to return home when they were blasted apart by M-79 grenades. This took place at the far edge of a central Bangkok rally location. Thailand continued to weep. To this date (March 25) no one has been arrested.

There is quite a lot more.. unfortunately the Youtube film has been removed. I am going to look if i can find it somewhere else.

[jayboy]

Robblok wrote: Violence wise the red shirts are just far more extreme and the cheering after the killings in Thrat is a good example of it. If not for one of the redshirt leaders realizing how bad it looks PR wise they would not have stopped. And yes it looks bad and nobody forgets it (except the red supporters who fail to admit that the reds are a far more violent bunch)

I support the redshirts and in my opinion their rage against the elite was truly justified.

The illegal government imposed by the military promised an election and then denied one.

If it had happened in my country, I would have been out there on the street with the rest of the "rioters".

If the Junta don't give up and go away with their ill gotten millions then this place will explode and as they say "you aint seen nothing yet"

It reminds me of the lead up to the Russian revolution.

The elite, completely oblivious of the needs of the people after three hundred years of total control.

The seething resentment as their political nominees become criminalised by the government.

The increasing lack of freedom, the suppression of free speech, the lack of any real progress despite the propaganda.

All these ingredients are there now and I believe that it won't take much for the Thais to explode and ransack the citadels of the elite (Bangkok).

I won't be here to see it though, I've made up my mind that this is a situation too dangerous to be around.

I wish it could be different but these elite are prepared to cling to power to the bitter end and so it will be.

really great to know that you support the murdering of innocent kids and adults because you think they have that right to kill people if they dont get what they want/demand, you definitely have the right mental attitdue(or lack of it) to be a red. Anyone that supports any kind of violence is a low life in my opinion especially when it involves the murder of innocent people, mate you really are pathetic

That is a foul assertion, but leaving your accusations of joyful bloodlust aside for a moment, how do you think an ignored and enraged proletariat are going to end up reacting when they feel there are no options left open to them? When they see the candidates they voted for (no matter how crappy and corrupt themselves) being casually swept aside by the same old smug establishment offering nothing other than more of the same?

If you want to call them uneducated and violent that is fine, but be fair and ask the question why this is and how it came about. Thaksin was just a catalyst. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. As I see it, the glue that held an always restive Thai populace together no longer binds, thanks in no small part to 21st century technology, so where do we go from here in order to prevent catastrophe?

Sounds a lot like your justifying the killing of those kids by the reds. Fact remains the reds are the most violent faction. Ghandi seems to have gotten a lot done without violence and the Brits were far more violent as the current junta.

Frankly this kind of discussion misses the point.In any case the debate about which side committed the most violence is absurd since the facts are widely known.The real question is what happens now in a divided nation.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/opinion/2016/07/02/brexit-exits-thailand/

Money quote

If comparing Thailand to a patient being examined by a medical doctor for treatment, she said it’s unclear if the people were talking about the same patient when talking about what’s wrong with Thailand. The woman added she also wonders if it’s the same doctor making the diagnosis and offering prescription and treatment.

I don’t see why people should have difficulty understanding why we may not agree on what is wrong with Thailand and how to handle the prolonged political crisis.

Is it a different patient (nation) we are referring to? Why not, when people may perceive the situation differently? Are there two medical doctors offering different diagnoses and treatments? That’s understandable.

I told the woman if there are indeed two different doctors, the problem is that one of them (read: the junta) holds a gun and is telling the other doctor to simply keep quiet.

Edited July 3, 2016 by jayboy

[robblok]

Frankly this kind of discussion misses the point.In any case the debate about which side committed the most violence is absurd since the facts are widely known.The real question is what happens now in a divided nation.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/opinion/2016/07/02/brexit-exits-thailand/

Money quote

If comparing Thailand to a patient being examined by a medical doctor for treatment, she said it’s unclear if the people were talking about the same patient when talking about what’s wrong with Thailand. The woman added she also wonders if it’s the same doctor making the diagnosis and offering prescription and treatment.

I don’t see why people should have difficulty understanding why we may not agree on what is wrong with Thailand and how to handle the prolonged political crisis.

Is it a different patient (nation) we are referring to? Why not, when people may perceive the situation differently? Are there two medical doctors offering different diagnoses and treatments? That’s understandable.

I told the woman if there are indeed two different doctors, the problem is that one of them (read: the junta) holds a gun and is telling the other doctor to simply keep quiet.

Nothing will happen.. this won't change.. i had a bit of hope when the junta came to power. If they had really put some mechanism put in place to really control corrupt politicians (of all sides) and making it less profitable to be in power. That would have helped because then the reward of being in power would be a lot lower and inciting violence and bribing to get votes would not be economical.

However on this (and other points) the junta has dissapointed me. That does not mean I am not against the Shins, i still see them as the greater evil. But to be honest I see no good choice now at all. There are just less bad choices.. no good choices.

[DrTuner]

What's the sentence for treason, like staging a coup?

[bobmac10]

The fact that Thai people cannot even discuss the current political situation without being liable for arrest (for creating disharmony) is something that the Junta supporters on TV cannot justify.

Yet they continue with their pointless arguments.

Clearly, there are some very restrictive laws in Thailand designed to stifle discussion.

I believe this is to allow the status quo to continue, because the laws have been in force for many decades.

So without the ability to discuss politics without fear is the major stumbling block to progress.

The Junta supporters don't get this point. They choose to ignore it.

One only has to look at South Africa.

When the ANC came into power, they could have held countless retribution trials against the whites, but they didn't.

Nelson Mandela said the only way forward is to forgive and forget.

Provided those involved attended the Truth and Reconciliation hearings, they were clear to get on with their lives.

Open political discussion was encouraged.

Now compare this with Thailand.

The comparison could not be more stark.

Here we have a climate of fear, "Attitude Adjustment" and jailings for people who say the "wrong" thing.

How can ther be any progress?

[baboon]

Robblok wrote: Violence wise the red shirts are just far more extreme and the cheering after the killings in Thrat is a good example of it. If not for one of the redshirt leaders realizing how bad it looks PR wise they would not have stopped. And yes it looks bad and nobody forgets it (except the red supporters who fail to admit that the reds are a far more violent bunch)

I support the redshirts and in my opinion their rage against the elite was truly justified.

The illegal government imposed by the military promised an election and then denied one.

If it had happened in my country, I would have been out there on the street with the rest of the "rioters".

If the Junta don't give up and go away with their ill gotten millions then this place will explode and as they say "you aint seen nothing yet"

It reminds me of the lead up to the Russian revolution.

The elite, completely oblivious of the needs of the people after three hundred years of total control.

The seething resentment as their political nominees become criminalised by the government.

The increasing lack of freedom, the suppression of free speech, the lack of any real progress despite the propaganda.

All these ingredients are there now and I believe that it won't take much for the Thais to explode and ransack the citadels of the elite (Bangkok).

I won't be here to see it though, I've made up my mind that this is a situation too dangerous to be around.

I wish it could be different but these elite are prepared to cling to power to the bitter end and so it will be.

really great to know that you support the murdering of innocent kids and adults because you think they have that right to kill people if they dont get what they want/demand, you definitely have the right mental attitdue(or lack of it) to be a red. Anyone that supports any kind of violence is a low life in my opinion especially when it involves the murder of innocent people, mate you really are pathetic

That is a foul assertion, but leaving your accusations of joyful bloodlust aside for a moment, how do you think an ignored and enraged proletariat are going to end up reacting when they feel there are no options left open to them? When they see the candidates they voted for (no matter how crappy and corrupt themselves) being casually swept aside by the same old smug establishment offering nothing other than more of the same?

If you want to call them uneducated and violent that is fine, but be fair and ask the question why this is and how it came about. Thaksin was just a catalyst. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. As I see it, the glue that held an always restive Thai populace together no longer binds, thanks in no small part to 21st century technology, so where do we go from here in order to prevent catastrophe?

Sounds a lot like your justifying the killing of those kids by the reds. Fact remains the reds are the most violent faction. Ghandi seems to have gotten a lot done without violence and the Brits were far more violent as the current junta.

That's the spirit, rob. Take the path of least resistance and focus on the symptom rather than the cause...

[jayboy]

Frankly this kind of discussion misses the point.In any case the debate about which side committed the most violence is absurd since the facts are widely known.The real question is what happens now in a divided nation.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/opinion/2016/07/02/brexit-exits-thailand/

Money quote

If comparing Thailand to a patient being examined by a medical doctor for treatment, she said it’s unclear if the people were talking about the same patient when talking about what’s wrong with Thailand. The woman added she also wonders if it’s the same doctor making the diagnosis and offering prescription and treatment.

I don’t see why people should have difficulty understanding why we may not agree on what is wrong with Thailand and how to handle the prolonged political crisis.

Is it a different patient (nation) we are referring to? Why not, when people may perceive the situation differently? Are there two medical doctors offering different diagnoses and treatments? That’s understandable.

I told the woman if there are indeed two different doctors, the problem is that one of them (read: the junta) holds a gun and is telling the other doctor to simply keep quiet.

Nothing will happen.. this won't change.. i had a bit of hope when the junta came to power. If they had really put some mechanism put in place to really control corrupt politicians (of all sides) and making it less profitable to be in power. That would have helped because then the reward of being in power would be a lot lower and inciting violence and bribing to get votes would not be economical.

However on this (and other points) the junta has dissapointed me. That does not mean I am not against the Shins, i still see them as the greater evil. But to be honest I see no good choice now at all. There are just less bad choices.. no good choices.

Your confusion is due I am afraid because you don't appear to have a sophisticated grasp of the forces at work.It is not a case of the Junta versus the Shins and in any case that is a ten year old's perception of the problem.As a helpful comparison it is like saying the recent Brexit was all about one issue.Life is complicated and there are few heroes and actually few real villains.There are deep forces at work in Thailand - quickly summarised as the increased prosperity and education of the lower middle and lower class - which cannot be reduced to a simple mantra.The Junta is in no sense an independent entity nor for that matter was Suthep and his PDRC.As an anecdotal point, Prayuth and Suthep regularly co-ordinated their positions in the pre coup period.The military, the Suthep mob, the Democrat Party have all been enlisted to protect the old order.This doesn't mean the old order was all bad nor does it mean men like Prayuth, Suthep and poor Abhisit are devoid of principle and honour.

[robblok]

Frankly this kind of discussion misses the point.In any case the debate about which side committed the most violence is absurd since the facts are widely known.The real question is what happens now in a divided nation.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/opinion/2016/07/02/brexit-exits-thailand/

Money quote

If comparing Thailand to a patient being examined by a medical doctor for treatment, she said it’s unclear if the people were talking about the same patient when talking about what’s wrong with Thailand. The woman added she also wonders if it’s the same doctor making the diagnosis and offering prescription and treatment.

I don’t see why people should have difficulty understanding why we may not agree on what is wrong with Thailand and how to handle the prolonged political crisis.

Is it a different patient (nation) we are referring to? Why not, when people may perceive the situation differently? Are there two medical doctors offering different diagnoses and treatments? That’s understandable.

I told the woman if there are indeed two different doctors, the problem is that one of them (read: the junta) holds a gun and is telling the other doctor to simply keep quiet.

Nothing will happen.. this won't change.. i had a bit of hope when the junta came to power. If they had really put some mechanism put in place to really control corrupt politicians (of all sides) and making it less profitable to be in power. That would have helped because then the reward of being in power would be a lot lower and inciting violence and bribing to get votes would not be economical.

However on this (and other points) the junta has dissapointed me. That does not mean I am not against the Shins, i still see them as the greater evil. But to be honest I see no good choice now at all. There are just less bad choices.. no good choices.

Your confusion is due I am afraid because you don't appear to have a sophisticated grasp of the forces at work.It is not a case of the Junta versus the Shins and in any case that is a ten year old's perception of the problem.As a helpful comparison it is like saying the recent Brexit was all about one issue.Life is complicated and there are few heroes and actually few real villains.There are deep forces at work in Thailand - quickly summarised as the increased prosperity and education of the lower middle and lower class - which cannot be reduced to a simple mantra.The Junta is in no sense an independent entity nor for that matter was Suthep and his PDRC.As an anecdotal point, Prayuth and Suthep regularly co-ordinated their positions in the pre coup period.The military, the Suthep mob, the Democrat Party have all been enlisted to protect the old order.This doesn't mean the old order was all bad nor does it mean men like Prayuth, Suthep and poor Abhisit are devoid of principle and honour.

I am not confused at all, just was stupid that I expected something to improve. Now I know that it won't and there are only bad options here we just have to go for the least evil. As i see the Shins are one of the most evil I will still support those who are against them. But with a lot less vigor.

This is also not elite vs non elite.. its just about who is in control to leach of the country and get rich from the corruption. The Shins are no more for the farmers than anyone else. They are there for themselves just good at manipulating the farmers.

I have no love for Suthep and Prayuth would never be my hero. He is just a lesser evil (who is totally unsuited for this job and runs the government like in a way the army is run). Abisith and Korn.. those I like.. but that is just out of a large group of democrats and in that group there are many who just like the Shins / red shirts / PTP only want to be in power to enrich themselves.

So nothing will change.. conflict will always be here. There is too much money at stake.

[aussieinthailand]

Robblok wrote: Violence wise the red shirts are just far more extreme and the cheering after the killings in Thrat is a good example of it. If not for one of the redshirt leaders realizing how bad it looks PR wise they would not have stopped. And yes it looks bad and nobody forgets it (except the red supporters who fail to admit that the reds are a far more violent bunch)

I support the redshirts and in my opinion their rage against the elite was truly justified.

The illegal government imposed by the military promised an election and then denied one.

If it had happened in my country, I would have been out there on the street with the rest of the "rioters".

If the Junta don't give up and go away with their ill gotten millions then this place will explode and as they say "you aint seen nothing yet"

It reminds me of the lead up to the Russian revolution.

The elite, completely oblivious of the needs of the people after three hundred years of total control.

The seething resentment as their political nominees become criminalised by the government.

The increasing lack of freedom, the suppression of free speech, the lack of any real progress despite the propaganda.

All these ingredients are there now and I believe that it won't take much for the Thais to explode and ransack the citadels of the elite (Bangkok).

I won't be here to see it though, I've made up my mind that this is a situation too dangerous to be around.

I wish it could be different but these elite are prepared to cling to power to the bitter end and so it will be.

really great to know that you support the murdering of innocent kids and adults because you think they have that right to kill people if they dont get what they want/demand, you definitely have the right mental attitdue(or lack of it) to be a red. Anyone that supports any kind of violence is a low life in my opinion especially when it involves the murder of innocent people, mate you really are pathetic

That is a foul assertion, but leaving your accusations of joyful bloodlust aside for a moment, how do you think an ignored and enraged proletariat are going to end up reacting when they feel there are no options left open to them? When they see the candidates they voted for (no matter how crappy and corrupt themselves) being casually swept aside by the same old smug establishment offering nothing other than more of the same?

If you want to call them uneducated and violent that is fine, but be fair and ask the question why this is and how it came about. Thaksin was just a catalyst. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. As I see it, the glue that held an always restive Thai populace together no longer binds, thanks in no small part to 21st century technology, so where do we go from here in order to prevent catastrophe?

Sounds a lot like your justifying the killing of those kids by the reds. Fact remains the reds are the most violent faction. Ghandi seems to have gotten a lot done without violence and the Brits were far more violent as the current junta.

Rob, you disappoint. In no way what so ever is he justifying the killing of kids. Can you provide evidence that the people (red's)were told a few radicals purposely killed children and that they cheered? no you can't.

Far more accurate was there was an announcement of a bomb had gone off and there were people killed and some not all cheered ( which most every one here on TVF has deplored)

but were they told in the speech that children had been killed and then cheered? no... That news came out latter.

You few guy's keep on spouting this rubbish to score cheap points, also disappointing.

Can you or any of the few junta huggers provide evidence/video that there was an announcement by "red's that children have been killed in a bomb attack and the "red's" cheered.

A sad fact is that when a minority represses a majority for their own gain at the coast to the nation, sooner or latter there will be violence, and violence brings more violence and the innocent are the victims.

Violence comes in more than one form and the minority have been handing it out for hundreds of years, now the majority have had enough and put in a gov't but the minority again and again cheat the people of their vote...

[halloween]

Rob, you disappoint. In no way what so ever is he justifying the killing of kids. Can you provide evidence that the people (red's)were told a few radicals purposely killed children and that they cheered? no you can't.

Far more accurate was there was an announcement of a bomb had gone off and there were people killed and some not all cheered ( which most every one here on TVF has deplored)

but were they told in the speech that children had been killed and then cheered? no... That news came out latter.

You few guy's keep on spouting this rubbish to score cheap points, also disappointing.

Can you or any of the few junta huggers provide evidence/video that there was an announcement by "red's that children have been killed in a bomb attack and the "red's" cheered.

A sad fact is that when a minority represses a majority for their own gain at the coast to the nation, sooner or latter there will be violence, and violence brings more violence and the innocent are the victims.

Violence comes in more than one form and the minority have been handing it out for hundreds of years, now the majority have had enough and put in a gov't but the minority again and again cheat the people of their vote...

So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children?

And it certainly has to be acceptable during pre-election campaigning, otherwise the "repressed majority" might get to hear of policies they prefer, or concepts other than "red thought".

[robblok]

really great to know that you support the murdering of innocent kids and adults because you think they have that right to kill people if they dont get what they want/demand, you definitely have the right mental attitdue(or lack of it) to be a red. Anyone that supports any kind of violence is a low life in my opinion especially when it involves the murder of innocent people, mate you really are pathetic

That is a foul assertion, but leaving your accusations of joyful bloodlust aside for a moment, how do you think an ignored and enraged proletariat are going to end up reacting when they feel there are no options left open to them? When they see the candidates they voted for (no matter how crappy and corrupt themselves) being casually swept aside by the same old smug establishment offering nothing other than more of the same?

If you want to call them uneducated and violent that is fine, but be fair and ask the question why this is and how it came about. Thaksin was just a catalyst. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. As I see it, the glue that held an always restive Thai populace together no longer binds, thanks in no small part to 21st century technology, so where do we go from here in order to prevent catastrophe?

Sounds a lot like your justifying the killing of those kids by the reds. Fact remains the reds are the most violent faction. Ghandi seems to have gotten a lot done without violence and the Brits were far more violent as the current junta.

Rob, you disappoint. In no way what so ever is he justifying the killing of kids. Can you provide evidence that the people (red's)were told a few radicals purposely killed children and that they cheered? no you can't.

Far more accurate was there was an announcement of a bomb had gone off and there were people killed and some not all cheered ( which most every one here on TVF has deplored)

but were they told in the speech that children had been killed and then cheered? no... That news came out latter.

You few guy's keep on spouting this rubbish to score cheap points, also disappointing.

Can you or any of the few junta huggers provide evidence/video that there was an announcement by "red's that children have been killed in a bomb attack and the "red's" cheered.

A sad fact is that when a minority represses a majority for their own gain at the coast to the nation, sooner or latter there will be violence, and violence brings more violence and the innocent are the victims.

Violence comes in more than one form and the minority have been handing it out for hundreds of years, now the majority have had enough and put in a gov't but the minority again and again cheat the people of their vote...

So that makes it all well.. people were killed (sure they did not say implicitly children) but they told them people were killed and there were cheers. Only until Tida (she is smart) realized this would show the real colors of the redshirts loving violence she made sure the cheering stopped.

Sad fact is that redshirts don't think violence is a bad thing. (else no cheering).

At the time the Reds were still in power so it was the reds suppressing the yellows trying to bring back Thaksin. We always seem to get back to that.. the reason why it all ignited.. because of the love for a convicted criminal

[boomerangutang]

I make the laws.

I oversee enforcement of laws.

I interpret that enforcement any way I please.

No discussion.

[aussieinthailand]

Rob, you disappoint. In no way what so ever is he justifying the killing of kids. Can you provide evidence that the people (red's)were told a few radicals purposely killed children and that they cheered? no you can't.

Far more accurate was there was an announcement of a bomb had gone off and there were people killed and some not all cheered ( which most every one here on TVF has deplored)

but were they told in the speech that children had been killed and then cheered? no... That news came out latter.

You few guy's keep on spouting this rubbish to score cheap points, also disappointing.

Can you or any of the few junta huggers provide evidence/video that there was an announcement by "red's that children have been killed in a bomb attack and the "red's" cheered.

A sad fact is that when a minority represses a majority for their own gain at the coast to the nation, sooner or latter there will be violence, and violence brings more violence and the innocent are the victims.

Violence comes in more than one form and the minority have been handing it out for hundreds of years, now the majority have had enough and put in a gov't but the minority again and again cheat the people of their vote...

So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children?

And it certainly has to be acceptable during pre-election campaigning, otherwise the "repressed majority" might get to hear of policies they prefer, or concepts other than "red thought".

A standard response for you Halloween, Where did I say "So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children?" They are your words sir not mine, But you and the gov't like to to this often tell any that will listen what others say and are thinking, you failed again, but perhaps a Freudian slip on your part maybe?

Never in any of my post tried to even attempt to justify or play down the killing of any one man woman child be they red or yellow soldier or police.

Try again man what am I saying and thinking now???

[halloween]

Rob, you disappoint. In no way what so ever is he justifying the killing of kids. Can you provide evidence that the people (red's)were told a few radicals purposely killed children and that they cheered? no you can't.

Far more accurate was there was an announcement of a bomb had gone off and there were people killed and some not all cheered ( which most every one here on TVF has deplored)

but were they told in the speech that children had been killed and then cheered? no... That news came out latter.

You few guy's keep on spouting this rubbish to score cheap points, also disappointing.

Can you or any of the few junta huggers provide evidence/video that there was an announcement by "red's that children have been killed in a bomb attack and the "red's" cheered.

A sad fact is that when a minority represses a majority for their own gain at the coast to the nation, sooner or latter there will be violence, and violence brings more violence and the innocent are the victims.

Violence comes in more than one form and the minority have been handing it out for hundreds of years, now the majority have had enough and put in a gov't but the minority again and again cheat the people of their vote...

So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children?

And it certainly has to be acceptable during pre-election campaigning, otherwise the "repressed majority" might get to hear of policies they prefer, or concepts other than "red thought".

A standard response for you Halloween, Where did I say "So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children?" They are your words sir not mine, But you and the gov't like to to this often tell any that will listen what others say and are thinking, you failed again, but perhaps a Freudian slip on your part maybe?

Never in any of my post tried to even attempt to justify or play down the killing of any one man woman child be they red or yellow soldier or police.

Try again man what am I saying and thinking now???

I did ask the question, so I guess they would have to be my words. But you did make a big point out of the claim they didn't know children were involved. Which makes the question quite appropriate. you can have another go at it if you like.

So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children? Come on, tell us how the "repressed majority" have the right to kill.

[Alive]

Halloween, no one has a right to kill even the soldiers who murdered 80 or so red shirts in 2010. Where's the justice for that? Who did it? Names. Justice for all not just one side. That's all that has even been wanted. You know that in Thailand murder by the powerful goes on and no one is held accountable. you must know that. And you must know Thai history of military murders without any accountability or resolution. When will all the disappeared and murdered by soldiers be accounted for? Prayuth was a soldier when all that past stuff was going on too. It never ends. Families suffer in a cruel society due to the military and the flag waving elite who encourage them. Prayuth should face the music. He's been involved in this stuff for a long time.

[aussieinthailand]

Rob, you disappoint. In no way what so ever is he justifying the killing of kids. Can you provide evidence that the people (red's)were told a few radicals purposely killed children and that they cheered? no you can't.

Far more accurate was there was an announcement of a bomb had gone off and there were people killed and some not all cheered ( which most every one here on TVF has deplored)

but were they told in the speech that children had been killed and then cheered? no... That news came out latter.

You few guy's keep on spouting this rubbish to score cheap points, also disappointing.

Can you or any of the few junta huggers provide evidence/video that there was an announcement by "red's that children have been killed in a bomb attack and the "red's" cheered.

A sad fact is that when a minority represses a majority for their own gain at the coast to the nation, sooner or latter there will be violence, and violence brings more violence and the innocent are the victims.

Violence comes in more than one form and the minority have been handing it out for hundreds of years, now the majority have had enough and put in a gov't but the minority again and again cheat the people of their vote...

So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children?

And it certainly has to be acceptable during pre-election campaigning, otherwise the "repressed majority" might get to hear of policies they prefer, or concepts other than "red thought".

A standard response for you Halloween, Where did I say "So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children?" They are your words sir not mine, But you and the gov't like to to this often tell any that will listen what others say and are thinking, you failed again, but perhaps a Freudian slip on your part maybe?

Never in any of my post tried to even attempt to justify or play down the killing of any one man woman child be they red or yellow soldier or police.

Try again man what am I saying and thinking now???

I did ask the question, so I guess they would have to be my words. But you did make a big point out of the claim they didn't know children were involved. Which makes the question quite appropriate. you can have another go at it if you like.

So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children? Come on, tell us how the "repressed majority" have the right to kill.

Ahhh Halloween, my poor friend, it seems you have a poor understanding of English, perhaps you are an English teacher?

Those that can, do, those that can not, teach.

Did the announcement of a bombing include that children were killed? NO.. Did SOME people cheer YES, and it was denounced strait away by the red's and was not OK...

Ok just for you yet again popit, NO, murder is not ok for political expression. there now lil fella you get it now?

Now for you maybe a difficult question if you please, What do you define as murder?

Is a Burmese worker on a fishing boat that has been worked 16-20 hours a day with littler food and beatings yeas on end his payment a murderer for defending himself?

Some could suggest a man that grants himself and his cohorts amnesty while forbidding others of that same freedom a murderer of freedom of expression.

You seem to have a closed eye on the truths of the world.

In your home country would the civilization be ok with open talks on a question on a referendum? As it is a crime here by the PM's behest.

What do you define a "political offender" that will have no amnesty? those with a red bowl? the mothers of sons that did not admonish statements sent on FB? or an old man that gave flowers, food drink to those that have a different point of view than the junta? Students calling for open transparent investigations on corruption, justify me and most of the free world that my friend if you can...

Our jousting here on TVF maybe enjoyable for you and others but the ramifications to the Thai people are far greater.

Edited July 3, 2016 by aussieinthailand

[halloween]

I did ask the question, so I guess they would have to be my words. But you did make a big point out of the claim they didn't know children were involved. Which makes the question quite appropriate. you can have another go at it if you like.

So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children? Come on, tell us how the "repressed majority" have the right to kill.

Ahhh Halloween, my poor friend, it seems you have a poor understanding of English, perhaps you are an English teacher?

Those that can, do, those that can not, teach.

Did the announcement of a bombing include that children were killed? NO.. Did SOME people cheer YES, and it was denounced strait away by the red's and was not OK...

Ok just for you yet again popit, NO, murder is not ok for political expression. there now lil fella you get it now?

Now for you maybe a difficult question if you please, What do you define as murder?

Is a Burmese worker on a fishing boat that has been worked 16-20 hours a day with littler food and beatings yeas on end his payment a murderer for defending himself?

Some could suggest a man that grants himself and his cohorts amnesty while forbidding others of that same freedom a murderer of freedom of expression.

You seem to have a closed eye on the truths of the world.

In your home country would the civilization be ok with open talks on a question on a referendum? As it is a crime here by the PM's behest.

What do you define a "political offender" that will have no amnesty? those with a red bowl? the mothers of sons that did not admonish statements sent on FB? or an old man that gave flowers, food drink to those that have a different point of view than the junta? Students calling for open transparent investigations on corruption, justify me and most of the free world that my friend if you can...

Our jousting here on TVF maybe enjoyable for you and others but the ramifications to the Thai people are far greater.

if it's not OK, why do YOU rabidly support those who practice it?

Even if you can ignore the blatant criminality of the Shinawatra governments, how do you ignore the indiscriminate use of explosive ordnance (bombs, grenades, M-79 grenades and RPGs) in urban environments as part of their political strategy?

[heybruce]

Frankly this kind of discussion misses the point.In any case the debate about which side committed the most violence is absurd since the facts are widely known.The real question is what happens now in a divided nation.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/opinion/2016/07/02/brexit-exits-thailand/

Money quote

If comparing Thailand to a patient being examined by a medical doctor for treatment, she said it’s unclear if the people were talking about the same patient when talking about what’s wrong with Thailand. The woman added she also wonders if it’s the same doctor making the diagnosis and offering prescription and treatment.

I don’t see why people should have difficulty understanding why we may not agree on what is wrong with Thailand and how to handle the prolonged political crisis.

Is it a different patient (nation) we are referring to? Why not, when people may perceive the situation differently? Are there two medical doctors offering different diagnoses and treatments? That’s understandable.

I told the woman if there are indeed two different doctors, the problem is that one of them (read: the junta) holds a gun and is telling the other doctor to simply keep quiet.

Nothing will happen.. this won't change.. i had a bit of hope when the junta came to power. If they had really put some mechanism put in place to really control corrupt politicians (of all sides) and making it less profitable to be in power. That would have helped because then the reward of being in power would be a lot lower and inciting violence and bribing to get votes would not be economical.

However on this (and other points) the junta has dissapointed me. That does not mean I am not against the Shins, i still see them as the greater evil. But to be honest I see no good choice now at all. There are just less bad choices.. no good choices.

Your confusion is due I am afraid because you don't appear to have a sophisticated grasp of the forces at work.It is not a case of the Junta versus the Shins and in any case that is a ten year old's perception of the problem.As a helpful comparison it is like saying the recent Brexit was all about one issue.Life is complicated and there are few heroes and actually few real villains.There are deep forces at work in Thailand - quickly summarised as the increased prosperity and education of the lower middle and lower class - which cannot be reduced to a simple mantra.The Junta is in no sense an independent entity nor for that matter was Suthep and his PDRC.As an anecdotal point, Prayuth and Suthep regularly co-ordinated their positions in the pre coup period.The military, the Suthep mob, the Democrat Party have all been enlisted to protect the old order.This doesn't mean the old order was all bad nor does it mean men like Prayuth, Suthep and poor Abhisit are devoid of principle and honour.

I am not confused at all, just was stupid that I expected something to improve. Now I know that it won't and there are only bad options here we just have to go for the least evil. As i see the Shins are one of the most evil I will still support those who are against them. But with a lot less vigor.

This is also not elite vs non elite.. its just about who is in control to leach of the country and get rich from the corruption. The Shins are no more for the farmers than anyone else. They are there for themselves just good at manipulating the farmers.

I have no love for Suthep and Prayuth would never be my hero. He is just a lesser evil (who is totally unsuited for this job and runs the government like in a way the army is run). Abisith and Korn.. those I like.. but that is just out of a large group of democrats and in that group there are many who just like the Shins / red shirts / PTP only want to be in power to enrich themselves.

So nothing will change.. conflict will always be here. There is too much money at stake.

"This is also not elite vs non elite.. its just about who is in control to leach of the country and get rich from the corruption. The Shins are no more for the farmers than anyone else. They are there for themselves just good at manipulating the farmers."

You miss the point of democracy. When the vote of a poor farmer counts as much as that of the a Bangkok elite, smart politicians will look after the interest of the majority, not the minority. Thaksin realized this and took advantage of it. The elites realized this and turned against democracy. With the military on the side of the elites democracy is constantly being stifled. This will not end well.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." John F. Kennedy

Edited July 3, 2016 by heybruce

[heybruce]

Robblok wrote: Violence wise the red shirts are just far more extreme and the cheering after the killings in Thrat is a good example of it. If not for one of the redshirt leaders realizing how bad it looks PR wise they would not have stopped. And yes it looks bad and nobody forgets it (except the red supporters who fail to admit that the reds are a far more violent bunch)

I support the redshirts and in my opinion their rage against the elite was truly justified.

The illegal government imposed by the military promised an election and then denied one.

If it had happened in my country, I would have been out there on the street with the rest of the "rioters".

If the Junta don't give up and go away with their ill gotten millions then this place will explode and as they say "you aint seen nothing yet"

It reminds me of the lead up to the Russian revolution.

The elite, completely oblivious of the needs of the people after three hundred years of total control.

The seething resentment as their political nominees become criminalised by the government.

The increasing lack of freedom, the suppression of free speech, the lack of any real progress despite the propaganda.

All these ingredients are there now and I believe that it won't take much for the Thais to explode and ransack the citadels of the elite (Bangkok).

I won't be here to see it though, I've made up my mind that this is a situation too dangerous to be around.

I wish it could be different but these elite are prepared to cling to power to the bitter end and so it will be.

really great to know that you support the murdering of innocent kids and adults because you think they have that right to kill people if they dont get what they want/demand, you definitely have the right mental attitdue(or lack of it) to be a red. Anyone that supports any kind of violence is a low life in my opinion especially when it involves the murder of innocent people, mate you really are pathetic

That is a foul assertion, but leaving your accusations of joyful bloodlust aside for a moment, how do you think an ignored and enraged proletariat are going to end up reacting when they feel there are no options left open to them? When they see the candidates they voted for (no matter how crappy and corrupt themselves) being casually swept aside by the same old smug establishment offering nothing other than more of the same?

If you want to call them uneducated and violent that is fine, but be fair and ask the question why this is and how it came about. Thaksin was just a catalyst. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. As I see it, the glue that held an always restive Thai populace together no longer binds, thanks in no small part to 21st century technology, so where do we go from here in order to prevent catastrophe?

Sounds a lot like your justifying the killing of those kids by the reds. Fact remains the reds are the most violent faction. Ghandi seems to have gotten a lot done without violence and the Brits were far more violent as the current junta.

If you count the killing by the military on behalf of the yellows, the yellows are by far the most violent faction. Without the killing by the military on behalf of the yellows, the reds wouldn't have to resort to bullets, they could rely on the ballot.

[heybruce]

I did ask the question, so I guess they would have to be my words. But you did make a big point out of the claim they didn't know children were involved. Which makes the question quite appropriate. you can have another go at it if you like.

So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children? Come on, tell us how the "repressed majority" have the right to kill.

Ahhh Halloween, my poor friend, it seems you have a poor understanding of English, perhaps you are an English teacher?

Those that can, do, those that can not, teach.

Did the announcement of a bombing include that children were killed? NO.. Did SOME people cheer YES, and it was denounced strait away by the red's and was not OK...

Ok just for you yet again popit, NO, murder is not ok for political expression. there now lil fella you get it now?

Now for you maybe a difficult question if you please, What do you define as murder?

Is a Burmese worker on a fishing boat that has been worked 16-20 hours a day with littler food and beatings yeas on end his payment a murderer for defending himself?

Some could suggest a man that grants himself and his cohorts amnesty while forbidding others of that same freedom a murderer of freedom of expression.

You seem to have a closed eye on the truths of the world.

In your home country would the civilization be ok with open talks on a question on a referendum? As it is a crime here by the PM's behest.

What do you define a "political offender" that will have no amnesty? those with a red bowl? the mothers of sons that did not admonish statements sent on FB? or an old man that gave flowers, food drink to those that have a different point of view than the junta? Students calling for open transparent investigations on corruption, justify me and most of the free world that my friend if you can...

Our jousting here on TVF maybe enjoyable for you and others but the ramifications to the Thai people are far greater.

if it's not OK, why do YOU rabidly support those who practice it?

Even if you can ignore the blatant criminality of the Shinawatra governments, how do you ignore the indiscriminate use of explosive ordnance (bombs, grenades, M-79 grenades and RPGs) in urban environments as part of their political strategy?

It's obvious to any intelligent observer of events from late 2013 up until the coup that Suthep was doing his best to provoke violence in order to justify a coup. The PTP government was doing its best to prevent hot-heads outraged by the prospect of having another elected government toppled from resorting to violence.

I have repeatedly asked for credible evidence linking the PTP or the Shinawatra's to the violence. None has ever been provided. That's because none exists.

[heybruce]

I don't know of the video you are referring to, can you provide a link?

I don't know of any police standing next to "red shooters" while they are firing and doing nothing. I don't believe it. I challenge you to provide credible evidence.

I don't believe "the govt was behind them 100%", and challenge you to provide evidence of that claim also.

Just because you believe things without evidence doesn't mean others will believe the same things.

Evidence that the military shouldn't run Thailand exists in abundance. The challenge is keeping count of the number of coups, military governments, suspended constitutions, rich generals and human rights violations.

t the same time the little girls were shot and killed, the core members and leaders of Thaksin's red shirt supporters were meeting in Nakhon Ratchasima. One of the Red Shirt leaders, "Dab Daeng" took the stage and proceeded to announce: "I have good news to tell my red shirt brothers and sisters from all provinces. The PDRC members of Suthep at the protest stage in Khao Saming (Trat) were deservedly given a reception by the locals. Five PDRC people were killed and over 30 injured. The locals welcomed them because they love Suthep a lot…" [1]

Upon hearing this news, many of the Red Shirts cheered, pumping their fists in the air and applauding. While the Red Shirts were cheering the cold blooded murder of two five year old girls, the rest of Thailand wept. This was Saturday night, February 24, 2014.

For Thai people, crying time was not over. On Sunday afternoon, three people, including two more children, were murdered in front of a shopping mall they had just left. They were waiting to get on a "tuk-tuk" to return home when they were blasted apart by M-79 grenades. This took place at the far edge of a central Bangkok rally location. Thailand continued to weep. To this date (March 25) no one has been arrested.

There is quite a lot more.. unfortunately the Youtube film has been removed. I am going to look if i can find it somewhere else.

Odd that you can provide such a long quote but not provide a reference to the quote. Worth noting that your own quote does not mention children.

No evidence provided for your claim that police stood by while people were shooting others. Also no evidence for your claim "the govt was behind them 100%".

I don't condone political violence any more than I condone military coups. However the rally you noted came three weeks after Suthep's people successfully used violence and intimidation to disrupt the election. At the time the pro-democracy crowed was cheering anything against the anti-democratic forces. That didn't make it right, cheering murder is not only despicable, it was also in Suthep's interest. No doubt Suthep was thrilled. That made the cheering worse than offensive, it was a mistake.

Edit: I just found the article you were quoting from, which can't be referenced here, and the part you didn't quote:

"Before Dab Daeng had the opportunity to expose more of his pervasive mindset, he was interrupted by the chairwoman of United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship Tida Thavornseth, who quickly said the red-shirt movement did not cherish violence.

Her interruption upset Dab Daeng, who was eventually collared and taken off the the stage by former Pheu Thai MP Worachai Hema of Samut Prakan."

Clearly there were people in the crowd who cheered the murder of PDRC people (they were not told the murders included children), but it was not something condoned by the UDD. That part doesn't fit into your narrative, does it?

Edited July 3, 2016 by heybruce

[Wilsonandson]

I think the amnesty issue could be solved by doing one thing. I let you think about that one thing.

[aussieinthailand]

I did ask the question, so I guess they would have to be my words. But you did make a big point out of the claim they didn't know children were involved. Which makes the question quite appropriate. you can have another go at it if you like.

So murder as political expression is OK as long as it's not children? Come on, tell us how the "repressed majority" have the right to kill.

Ahhh Halloween, my poor friend, it seems you have a poor understanding of English, perhaps you are an English teacher?

Those that can, do, those that can not, teach.

Did the announcement of a bombing include that children were killed? NO.. Did SOME people cheer YES, and it was denounced strait away by the red's and was not OK...

Ok just for you yet again popit, NO, murder is not ok for political expression. there now lil fella you get it now?

Now for you maybe a difficult question if you please, What do you define as murder?

Is a Burmese worker on a fishing boat that has been worked 16-20 hours a day with littler food and beatings yeas on end his payment a murderer for defending himself?

Some could suggest a man that grants himself and his cohorts amnesty while forbidding others of that same freedom a murderer of freedom of expression.

You seem to have a closed eye on the truths of the world.

In your home country would the civilization be ok with open talks on a question on a referendum? As it is a crime here by the PM's behest.

What do you define a "political offender" that will have no amnesty? those with a red bowl? the mothers of sons that did not admonish statements sent on FB? or an old man that gave flowers, food drink to those that have a different point of view than the junta? Students calling for open transparent investigations on corruption, justify me and most of the free world that my friend if you can...

Our jousting here on TVF maybe enjoyable for you and others but the ramifications to the Thai people are far greater.

if it's not OK, why do YOU rabidly support those who practice it?

Even if you can ignore the blatant criminality of the Shinawatra governments, how do you ignore the indiscriminate use of explosive ordnance (bombs, grenades, M-79 grenades and RPGs) in urban environments as part of their political strategy?

"if it's not OK, why do you rabidly support those who practice it?."

This is as ignorant a position as would be if I accused you of supporting murder for political expression because the Dems murdered people in the past protests.

Who gave the green light to use live rounds on protesters and even volunteer's and aid workers in temples foreign reporters etc?

Yu'p like I said in my last post, you seem to have a poor understanding of the English language. Please if you can show a post just one if you can where I expressed support for murder for political expression,,, You can't because I never have. Now possibly because I don't support the Dem's or the Junta but I think that Thaksin has done great things for the disenfranchised, the poor, and the economy of the country (which undeniable fact) dose in no way in the wide wide world of sports mean that I support murder for political expression.

Now YOU on the other hand support a junta that in the past has how many innocent peoples blood on their hands? Back at ya lil fella

[robblok]

I don't know of the video you are referring to, can you provide a link?

I don't know of any police standing next to "red shooters" while they are firing and doing nothing. I don't believe it. I challenge you to provide credible evidence.

I don't believe "the govt was behind them 100%", and challenge you to provide evidence of that claim also.

Just because you believe things without evidence doesn't mean others will believe the same things.

Evidence that the military shouldn't run Thailand exists in abundance. The challenge is keeping count of the number of coups, military governments, suspended constitutions, rich generals and human rights violations.

t the same time the little girls were shot and killed, the core members and leaders of Thaksin's red shirt supporters were meeting in Nakhon Ratchasima. One of the Red Shirt leaders, "Dab Daeng" took the stage and proceeded to announce: "I have good news to tell my red shirt brothers and sisters from all provinces. The PDRC members of Suthep at the protest stage in Khao Saming (Trat) were deservedly given a reception by the locals. Five PDRC people were killed and over 30 injured. The locals welcomed them because they love Suthep a lot…" [1]

Upon hearing this news, many of the Red Shirts cheered, pumping their fists in the air and applauding. While the Red Shirts were cheering the cold blooded murder of two five year old girls, the rest of Thailand wept. This was Saturday night, February 24, 2014.

For Thai people, crying time was not over. On Sunday afternoon, three people, including two more children, were murdered in front of a shopping mall they had just left. They were waiting to get on a "tuk-tuk" to return home when they were blasted apart by M-79 grenades. This took place at the far edge of a central Bangkok rally location. Thailand continued to weep. To this date (March 25) no one has been arrested.

There is quite a lot more.. unfortunately the Youtube film has been removed. I am going to look if i can find it somewhere else.

Odd that you can provide such a long quote but not provide a reference to the quote. Worth noting that your own quote does not mention children.

No evidence provided for your claim that police stood by while people were shooting others. Also no evidence for your claim "the govt was behind them 100%".

I don't condone political violence any more than I condone military coups. However the rally you noted came three weeks after Suthep's people successfully used violence and intimidation to disrupt the election. At the time the pro-democracy crowed was cheering anything against the anti-democratic forces. That didn't make it right, cheering murder is not only despicable, it was also in Suthep's interest. No doubt Suthep was thrilled. That made the cheering worse than offensive, it was a mistake.

Edit: I just found the article you were quoting from, which can't be referenced here, and the part you didn't quote:

"Before Dab Daeng had the opportunity to expose more of his pervasive mindset, he was interrupted by the chairwoman of United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship Tida Thavornseth, who quickly said the red-shirt movement did not cherish violence.

Her interruption upset Dab Daeng, who was eventually collared and taken off the the stage by former Pheu Thai MP Worachai Hema of Samut Prakan."

Clearly there were people in the crowd who cheered the murder of PDRC people (they were not told the murders included children), but it was not something condoned by the UDD. That part doesn't fit into your narrative, does it?

Bruce.. you believe in your red shirts more then I do.. I believe Tida was just smarter and saw that people like me would use this to expose them. You believe she did not condone murder.

[Alive]

robblok,, do you condemn the murders by the military over the years? After all 80 or so red shirts were murdered for occupying downtown Bangkok in 2010? Where's the justice for them? Why do the soldiers roll when red shirts are in the streets and not when PDRC are?

Edited July 4, 2016 by Alive