I don't understand why it is so hard to teach English (windows application)

[Nawanakorn1]

I was just asked by a student attending Bangkok University if I could teach him. The only words in English that he said to me were, "tutor, English and Bangkok University." I understood and told him to talk to my wife. Afterwards, I gave him a reading and sentence test that I have on Android. He put the sentences together and said each word in the proper order. My question is, "why can't he ask me simple questions in English?" Like, "can you teach me English?" So, I tried a program I made on him, called, "Sentence Extreme." How is it that he could put together my scrambled sentences by saying each word in English and me clicking on the words to form the sentence? It seems that whoever I have tryed this on in Thailand. they got it right but cannot form a sentence iin English if I ask them a question verbally. I know as I have used it in groups of 30 or more with at least 6 groups at VRU University. What gives here? Can anybody explain it to me? If this can be solved, Thailand students can be taught English really fast!

Download my application and try this out to see if I am wrong or not. You can download it at:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m60tl423z633j2o/Sentence%20Extreme%20J-Default-1.0.0.0.zip?dl=0

[Nawanakorn1]

Can anyone answer this question? Are we really teaching Thais English? How can they read and select the proper sequence in a sentence (grammar) without understanding what is written or spoken to them? I have had classes with over 30 students all in sequence saying the correct words from my program to make a correct sentence. English majors and non English majors. What is going on here?

[ajarngreg]

Students usually learn English by copying anything of a white-or blackboard.

Many Thai English teachers are like the student you've met and not able to have a simple conversation with somebody who speaks good English.

Thai students from grade one (Prathomsuksa) up to grade 10 ( Mattayom) are NOT allowed to ask their teachers a question. It's an "unwritten law" by the Ministry of Education and based on loss of face, if the teacher doesn't know the answer.

It's not a surprise when you meet students who had 12 years of English, but can't even tell you where they live.

More and more schools are signing contracts with agencies where the students usually have an hour of English per week, sometimes taught by native Russian speakers.

I've met an ex- student who had seven different English teachers in only one term. Only two of them were actually NES teachers with a few years experience. Some were East European “teachers” from Hungary, some Nigerians, Mexicans and two Indians

There are so many ways to learn English for free, watching English movies is just one of them. There are so many websites where students (but also teachers) could learn all four skills for free.

But the truth is that facebook seems to be more interesting than doing something for the future. But you can see Thai teachers in their English lessons speaking only Thai.

When you look in some students' notebooks, you might think, well the student is good. But please ask him/her what a certain sentence or word means and you'll see the face changing.

And too many agencies fighting for a piece of the cake, but not even having what they offer, doesn't make the system to a better one.

Those teachers who are really good in English who studied abroad will find a much better paid position in another field.

All primary and high school teachers had to make an English test from CEFR (Common European Framework) and the results were breathtaking in a truly negative way.

Many of them scored A 1, or A 2 which is similar to Kindergarten English in an English speaking country. sad, but true.

Please have a look here, a great tool to test somebody's level of English and you'll understand how low A 1 really is.

http://www.examenglish.com/CEFR/cefr.php

[simon43]

Please have a look here, a great tool to test somebody's level of English and you'll understand how low A 1 really is.

(Sigh). I would be so happy if my students could achieve an A1 level in English

[falang07]

" Thai students from grade one (Prathomsuksa) up to grade 10 ( Mattayom) are NOT allowed to ask their teachers a question. It's an "unwritten law" by the Ministry of Education and based on loss of face, if the teacher doesn't know the answer."

Is this really true?

[masuk]

Well, to reverse the situation, I find that deciphering the Thai alphabet is far from easy.

I can understand students having the same problem with our 'Roman' alphabet. Then of course, sentence construction is totally different.

When I was learning Indonesian, the alphabet is the same as ours, just pronounced differently in many cases, but at least I can READ the words. Even Greek is easier!

Sentence construction is different, such as 'black boots' becomes 'boots black', etc. Thai sentence construction, from what I've seen on direct translations is really mixed up.

However, Indian students manage with their alphabet and so many speak excellent English, it's a delight to hear.

I am quite amazed that students do not or are not permitted to ask questions. What a way to learn! It explains a lot of things.

[Bullie]

Well, to reverse the situation, I find that deciphering the Thai alphabet is far from easy.

I can understand students having the same problem with our 'Roman' alphabet. Then of course, sentence construction is totally different.

When I was learning Indonesian, the alphabet is the same as ours, just pronounced differently in many cases, but at least I can READ the words. Even Greek is easier!

Sentence construction is different, such as 'black boots' becomes 'boots black', etc. Thai sentence construction, from what I've seen on direct translations is really mixed up.

However, Indian students manage with their alphabet and so many speak excellent English, it's a delight to hear.

I am quite amazed that students do not or are not permitted to ask questions. What a way to learn! It explains a lot of things.

Sentence construction in latin languages is different too (botas negras) and this does not stop anyone to speak english. Khmer alphabet is just as alien as Thai, and yet I know many cambodians to speak english quite fluently, even without the benefit of a formal education. Much of Khmer television is in the original language, and subtitled - which goes a long way to explaining their proficiency.

I myself spoke and understood english by the time I was 8 or 9 years old - simply by watching dutch television which, you'ver guessed it, is mostly subtitled instead of dubbed.

Your last remark does, however, hit the nail on the head: how can one learn anything if you are not exposed to it, and are prohibited to ask questions?

It's the old face-saving thing, plus the notion that there is only one true language worth speaking in the world.

Now which language would that be?

[masuk]

Nederlandse?

When we visited the grandparents in Holland, the kids loved watching Sesame St which on the Dutch channels was in English, but a quick flip of the channels had a German channel 100% dubbed, no sub-titles.

Having sub-titles on TV programs helps a lot, but they don't seem to do it here.

I have a Thai friend who speaks excellent English, but he won't watch English language TV, as he says it's too fast. A case where sub-titles would be of great use.

[Scott]

The single biggest problem is that people do not use the language and languages are competency comes with use. I took a fair amount of Latin, but if I suddenly went through the time-warp and ended up in Rome, I doubt I could get directions to the Colosseum or order something to eat. I also took a couple of other languages, one which I also didn't have the opportunity to use and never achieved any kind of proficiency (although, like a lot of Thais, I passed the tests). I took a 3rd language and spent time in the country. I can still manage to get along in that language.

Use it or lose it. Book learning can only go so far.

[Bullie]

Nederlandse?

When we visited the grandparents in Holland, the kids loved watching Sesame St which on the Dutch channels was in English, but a quick flip of the channels had a German channel 100% dubbed, no sub-titles.

Having sub-titles on TV programs helps a lot, but they don't seem to do it here.

I have a Thai friend who speaks excellent English, but he won't watch English language TV, as he says it's too fast. A case where sub-titles would be of great use.

Yes, I am dutch. the german language channel was NEVER dubbed, they were just speaking german. Confusing, mayby to a foraigner, but it sounds a lot like dutch. Like Scottish and English, I would say.

[Bullie]

The single biggest problem is that people do not use the language and languages are competency comes with use. I took a fair amount of Latin, but if I suddenly went through the time-warp and ended up in Rome, I doubt I could get directions to the Colosseum or order something to eat. I also took a couple of other languages, one which I also didn't have the opportunity to use and never achieved any kind of proficiency (although, like a lot of Thais, I passed the tests). I took a 3rd language and spent time in the country. I can still manage to get along in that language.

Use it or lose it. Book learning can only go so far.

I really can't agree with you. I took 2 years of french in primary school, and (obligatory) 3 years of french in secundary school. Hardly ever used it, since everybody outside of France speaks English. I'm 60 years old now. Went to France last year, and after 2 days was talking like any foreigner speaking and understanding french.

My son, 7 years old, is fluent in Thai (ofcourse). He will live in Holland next year. I'm quite sure that when or if he goes back to Thailand in 20 odd years he will still pick up the language very quickly.

[lostinisaan]

" Thai students from grade one (Prathomsuksa) up to grade 10 ( Mattayom) are NOT allowed to ask their teachers a question. It's an "unwritten law" by the Ministry of Education and based on loss of face, if the teacher doesn't know the answer."

Is this really true?

I've heard that as well from quite a few students and it seems to be true.

The loss of face seems to be the problem as they believe if they don't have an answer to a question, they're losing face.

Couldn't they just say: "Please wait a minute, I'll look it up and tell you in a sec?"

No failing students, no questions allowed, no lost faces. = Chaos.

" I know that I know nothing", from Albert Einstein doesn't seem to be understood by a lot of them. 21st century and they still fly on brooms?

[lostinisaan]

Nederlandse?

When we visited the grandparents in Holland, the kids loved watching Sesame St which on the Dutch channels was in English, but a quick flip of the channels had a German channel 100% dubbed, no sub-titles.

Having sub-titles on TV programs helps a lot, but they don't seem to do it here.

I have a Thai friend who speaks excellent English, but he won't watch English language TV, as he says it's too fast. A case where sub-titles would be of great use.

No subs. Once a Thai watches an English movie with subtitles, they'll read the Thai subs and do not understand what's spoken.

BTW, are good English movies completely different when you watch them in Thai. A completely different sentence structure makes it impossible to learn,

The jokes and the plot is usually gone. Lost through translation? They should have plenty of English cartoon channels and the kids would easily get familiar with the language and after awhile understand what's being said.

I know a doctor from Sapphasit Ubon and a lecturer from Rajabhat who both speak a very good American English.

Both have learned their English by only watching English movies, writing in forums, doing their phone and PC set up in English ,etc..

Both were never abroad, but you'd think they'd been in the States for quite a long time.

I think the goal should be to "think in the language" you're learning. I'm not perfect in Thai, but I do think in Thai when I speak Thai and i think in English when I speak English, and of course do I think in German when I speak German.

There're various ways to reach your goal if you really want to learn a language.

Please see: http://www.lingholic.com/thinking-in-a-foreign-language-how-to-do-it-and-why/

[maewang99]

I've been here 10. Taught university and several high schools. Be careful.... when a "student" asks you to "teach" them English..... most of the time what they want is for you to do their homework for them. As for speaking English... it's not required at any level in the system because it is time consuming and a lot of serious work to assess spoken language skills... and final assessments must be made, for political reasons, by civil service ajarn... not contract ajarn. So the spoken stuff must be recitation or singing songs or playing word games... but not the use of language as an activity... which is amazing to everyone except Thai, for two reasons. 1. speaking and listening is easier and more fun than writing and reading a new foreign language... that's the foreigner perspective. 2. Thai is not a literary language... unlike Chinese, Japanese or English.. or any language including the other tonal languages.... it is written almost 100% phonetically. you discover this as soon as you peek into one of their bilingual dictionaries and see pronunciation of the foreign language easily subsumed by Thai graphemes rather than the IPA or Webster's Guide such as we use.... because we do not spell our vowels out.... we only have 5 vowel symbols (but 40 or so basic vowel phonemes).. that is because Chinese, Japanese and the rest.... except Thai.... have a written alphabet (technically I guess, called graphemes) geared towards reading and writing as a skill entirely separate from speaking and listening... to assist and enhance reading efficiency and speed... the latter of which is so obvious it almost whacks you to the floor on your first epiphany that Thais don't even know where their local library is.... very few Thai do any serious reading... let alone reading for fun and pleasure.. even though to folks anywhere else, including most all of Asia i.e. Hong Kong, Singapore... reading is usually mentioned as most folks favorite pastime or 2nd favorite pastime.... etc etc.

[12DrinkMore]

I must admit I have great problems in unscrambling the sentences in the OP.

I might just have to go and download the application myself.

[Nawanakorn1]

I still do not understand why Thai students can unscramble the sentences on my program and read the words out loud while they are forming the sentence. During a recent English camp my best student who happens to be Chinese scored lower than the Thai students. She apparently wasn't used to some of the sentences while the Thai students were. I tried the program on first year education majors (30 of them) a couple of weeks ago, and they all read the unscrambled words in sequence while I pressed the first, second, third and so on until the sentence was finished.

Why can't they communicate in English, individually or as a group, but yet can read and speak English as a group?

My next door neighbor who works for Toshiba said that most of the educated Thais can read English but are too afraid to speak it. I gave a mid term to approximately 140 Education Majors on the condition I would not grade them on grammar. As long as I understood what they were saying, I would give them points. Of course, the sentences had to make sense. Most of them were worried about their pronunciation of words. I just told them not to criticize each other if someone made a mistake and just keep on trying. One lady said, "My pronunciation is terrible." I told her to go on with here speech. Afterwards, I asked her where she picked up her British accent. She wouldn't stop talking after that.

[lostinisaan]

Thanks for the nice good night story. It helped tremendously to read your OP to our little one and she immediately fell asleep.

BTW, are you a Roman Catholic Priest?

[Nawanakorn1]

lostinisaan in response to your comment(s). No I am not a priest. You and I should meet at the local police station for defamation of character here in Pathumthani. Can you do that? Do you live near Pathumthani? Do you really have a daughter? I can support my facts as I have a lot of students we can test. I will even bring the IT person and my next door neighbor. Heck, for a 1 million baht defamation suit, I am sure I could pay for his/her and a hell of a lot of students transportation costs, plus their time away from studying (well, work right now for most and the Education Majors in English Camp)! Is your picture a picture of Hitler's girlfriend/last wife? Just asking.

[zeichen]

lostinisaan in response to your comment(s). No I am not a priest. You and I should meet at the local police station for defamation of character here in Pathumthani. Can you do that? Do you live near Pathumthani? Do you really have a daughter? I can support my facts as I have a lot of students we can test. I will even bring the IT person and my next door neighbor. Heck, for a 1 million baht defamation suit, I am sure I could pay for his/her and a hell of a lot of students transportation costs, plus their time away from studying (well, work right now for most and the Education Majors in English Camp)! Is your picture a picture of Hitler's girlfriend/last wife? Just asking.

I am guessing that you are joking but it is hard to tell online. If not, you do realize that you would have to prove loss of income to win a case and since nothing he said online actually hurt your career, you are just acting like a 12 year old prat threatening a law suit.

Lostinisaan has a warped sense of humor but he has been in the trenches for years so ignore his silly comments and listen to his good comments.

As to your topic. First of all most foreigners here often equate ones spoken ability to a students knowledge or overall ability in English. Which unfortunately isn't fair. Thais have very good passive language skills and very good comprehension. Most can write a decent summary or basic essay by college. Most people do not actually need to orally communicate in English for work or life so why is that so important to you? Your job is more than a conversational teacher. Yes, it is advantageous to speak but not always necessary. Most people here don't get paid more if they are fluent in English. So basic ability and simple things are enough for most people. Tests are usually reading comprehension, written and translation so that is what students put emphasis on.

Also most schools still use translation methodology, or 2 skills teachers. Large class sizes of 30-50 are the main issue to me, but primarily any shortcoming of students spoken ability needs to rest on the shoulders of the foreign teachers. We don't get enough contact hours with the students but often we waste time talking, lecturing, reprimanding and rewarding and not enough time for production.

With the dozens of different accents of English teachers from every country in the world, how do you think their spoken ability would be? Have you tried to study Thai language from a German, then a Vietnamese teacher, then a Chinese, then a Thai from southern thailand, then from Central,etc. After 6 years of all those different accents, styles etc. how good would your spoken Thai be?

Why not give credit to students for what they are good at and use those abilities as a background to build the other skills?

We can blame the system, we can blame the culture, we can blame the student, but when will you take the blame yourself.

Personally. I am impressed with how good Thais are overall compared to many other countries. Though I hate working here for lower salary, mismanaged departments and all the issues with immigration/visa etc. I do enjoy teaching Thai students compared to Korea, China, Japan, Russia and Saudi.

[Nawanakorn1]

lostinisaan in response to your comment(s). No I am not a priest. You and I should meet at the local police station for defamation of character here in Pathumthani. Can you do that? Do you live near Pathumthani? Do you really have a daughter? I can support my facts as I have a lot of students we can test. I will even bring the IT person and my next door neighbor. Heck, for a 1 million baht defamation suit, I am sure I could pay for his/her and a hell of a lot of students transportation costs, plus their time away from studying (well, work right now for most and the Education Majors in English Camp)! Is your picture a picture of Hitler's girlfriend/last wife? Just asking.

I am guessing that you are joking but it is hard to tell online. If not, you do realize that you would have to prove loss of income to win a case and since nothing he said online actually hurt your career, you are just acting like a 12 year old prat threatening a law suit.

Lostinisaan has a warped sense of humor but he has been in the trenches for years so ignore his silly comments and listen to his good comments.

As to your topic. First of all most foreigners here often equate ones spoken ability to a students knowledge or overall ability in English. Which unfortunately isn't fair. Thais have very good passive language skills and very good comprehension. Most can write a decent summary or basic essay by college. Most people do not actually need to orally communicate in English for work or life so why is that so important to you? Your job is more than a conversational teacher. Yes, it is advantageous to speak but not always necessary. Most people here don't get paid more if they are fluent in English. So basic ability and simple things are enough for most people. Tests are usually reading comprehension, written and translation so that is what students put emphasis on.

Also most schools still use translation methodology, or 2 skills teachers. Large class sizes of 30-50 are the main issue to me, but primarily any shortcoming of students spoken ability needs to rest on the shoulders of the foreign teachers. We don't get enough contact hours with the students but often we waste time talking, lecturing, reprimanding and rewarding and not enough time for production.

With the dozens of different accents of English teachers from every country in the world, how do you think their spoken ability would be? Have you tried to study Thai language from a German, then a Vietnamese teacher, then a Chinese, then a Thai from southern thailand, then from Central,etc. After 6 years of all those different accents, styles etc. how good would your spoken Thai be?

Why not give credit to students for what they are good at and use those abilities as a background to build the other skills?

We can blame the system, we can blame the culture, we can blame the student, but when will you take the blame yourself.

Personally. I am impressed with how good Thais are overall compared to many other countries. Though I hate working here for lower salary, mismanaged departments and all the issues with immigration/visa etc. I do enjoy teaching Thai students compared to Korea, China, Japan, Russia and Saudi.

Well, I agree with what you are saying. I care because I teach University students who are going to be teachers and students who will be working in the Hotel industry, tourism or what not. So, I am trying to figure out how to use this program or something similar so that I get all of my students talking without it. The education majors are the only ones diligent enough to practice a dialogue generator and tester (Windows and Android) that I made and handed out to them. Maybe, I could use the sentence unscramble program for practice to get the whole class to talk and then test them on the dialogue program. Classes are starting back up in August and I should have enough time to set the descrambler to match the dialogue program and the subjects taught in the classroom. The last two semesters, I gave all of the students the dialogue generator/tester program during the first week of class. They all did quite well. Regardless, I still don't understand how the freshman and second year students, can put together the sentences by selecting the first, second, third and so forth until the final punctuation. It is amazing!