Condos rotting?

[Buzzz]

The oldest highrise hotel in Thailand is the Indra Hotel at Pratunam. Built in 1976.

The oldest highrise condo in Thailand is Premier in Phrom Phong. Built in 1983.

Both are still standing strong...

When a condo detrroriates beyond repairs the CoOwners can vote to liquidate the land.

Land in the central business district is around 450,000bt per SQM.

What percentage of owners would you need for that?

Probably 100% unless it is written into the contracts. Which I doubt it is.

Otherwise it would surely be construed as theft and destruction of property.

And if that is correct, then there is absolutely no chance that the building can ever be demolished.

If I was the last person to not sign and the rest wanted to buy me out, the price would reach the nearest galaxy.

You may end up as fish food if you are the last guy holding up a 900,000,000bt deal.

[Jingthing]

You may end up as fish food if you are the last guy holding up a 900,000,000bt deal.

You're naive. In a large building, even making CONTACT with 100 percent of owners would be extremely unlikely.

[KittenKong]

The oldest highrise hotel in Thailand is the Indra Hotel at Pratunam. Built in 1976.

The oldest highrise condo in Thailand is Premier in Phrom Phong. Built in 1983.

Both are still standing strong...

When a condo detrroriates beyond repairs the CoOwners can vote to liquidate the land.

Land in the central business district is around 450,000bt per SQM.

What percentage of owners would you need for that?

Normally 75% of the total vote (not just those present) for major long-term decisions like change of usage or changing the rules. So that should apply in this case also.

[KittenKong]

Probably 100% unless it is written into the contracts. Which I doubt it is.

Contracts are meaningless in this case. The only considerations are the building rules and the condo act.

[Buzzz]

The balance between land prices and construction costs is changing. In central Bangkok, land price as a percentage of the total development cost now exceeds the construction costs.

Many of the 30,000 condo buildings constructed between 1989 – 2000 were not well designed & improving these buildings will be difficult because of communal decisions. Thai owners won't agree to spend considerable sums on common area improvements to make sure their building is well-maintained or in good condition. Their prices will stagnate and may never reach beyond their launch prices of 50,000bt / SQM. Many of these pre year 2000 buildings will eventually become derelict and uninhabitable.

Buildings completed in the next condominium cycle starting in 2002 have fared better. With the average launch price of around THB 100,000 per square metre in 2003, many have doubled in value to 200,000 bt / SQM as new off plan projects are selling at 300,000Bt / SQM.

In the future, the value of the older buildings will be greater if they are demolished and the land was sold for redevelopment.

However, the Thai Condominium Act requires 100% agreement of all co-owners to dissolve a condominium.

I predict the 100% stipulation in the Condo Act will be amended when the sois are filling up with condemned condo buildings.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Buzzz

[KittenKong]

What percentage of owners would you need for that?

Normally 75% of the total vote (not just those present) for major long-term decisions like change of usage or changing the rules. So that should apply in this case also.

I looked it up:

(2) Joint-owners adopt the resolution unanimously to revoke the condominium.

So it's 100%, unlike the 75% required for most other important decisions. Might be very hard to achieve in practice.

[Buzzz]

What percentage of owners would you need for that?

Normally 75% of the total vote (not just those present) for major long-term decisions like change of usage or changing the rules. So that should apply in this case also.

I looked it up:

(2) Joint-owners adopt the resolution unanimously to revoke the condominium.

So it's 100%, unlike the 75% required for most other important decisions. Might be very hard to achieve in practice.

Thousands of Bangkok condos will reach their expiration date in a decade or two.

Might be a good business opportunity in the future to develop a methodology that facilitates the liquidation of these properties.

[Berty100]

The balance between land prices and construction costs is changing. In central Bangkok, land price as a percentage of the total development cost now exceeds the construction costs.

Many of the 30,000 condo buildings constructed between 1989 – 2000 were not well designed & improving these buildings will be difficult because of communal decisions. Thai owners won't agree to spend considerable sums on common area improvements to make sure their building is well-maintained or in good condition. Their prices will stagnate and may never reach beyond their launch prices of 50,000bt / SQM. Many of these pre year 2000 buildings will eventually become derelict and uninhabitable.

Buildings completed in the next condominium cycle starting in 2002 have fared better. With the average launch price of around THB 100,000 per square metre in 2003, many have doubled in value to 200,000 bt / SQM as new off plan projects are selling at 300,000Bt / SQM.

In the future, the value of the older buildings will be greater if they are demolished and the land was sold for redevelopment.

However, the Thai Condominium Act requires 100% agreement of all co-owners to dissolve a condominium.

I predict the 100% stipulation in the Condo Act will be amended when the sois are filling up with condemned condo buildings.

That's a nice copy and paste from CBRE, almost sounded as if it was your own opinion.

I thought it was fair that if made a copy and paste post you reveal your source, instead of trying to sound intelligent yourself.

http://www.cbre.co.th/en/News/Article/Will-Prices-Rise-in-Old-Bangkoks-Condominium-Buildings

[Buzzz]

The balance between land prices and construction costs is changing. In central Bangkok, land price as a percentage of the total development cost now exceeds the construction costs.

Many of the 30,000 condo buildings constructed between 1989 2000 were not well designed & improving these buildings will be difficult because of communal decisions. Thai owners won't agree to spend considerable sums on common area improvements to make sure their building is well-maintained or in good condition. Their prices will stagnate and may never reach beyond their launch prices of 50,000bt / SQM. Many of these pre year 2000 buildings will eventually become derelict and uninhabitable.

Buildings completed in the next condominium cycle starting in 2002 have fared better. With the average launch price of around THB 100,000 per square metre in 2003, many have doubled in value to 200,000 bt / SQM as new off plan projects are selling at 300,000Bt / SQM.

In the future, the value of the older buildings will be greater if they are demolished and the land was sold for redevelopment.

However, the Thai Condominium Act requires 100% agreement of all co-owners to dissolve a condominium.

I predict the 100% stipulation in the Condo Act will be amended when the sois are filling up with condemned condo buildings.

That's a nice copy and paste from CBRE, almost sounded as if it was your own opinion.

I thought it was fair that if made a copy and paste post you reveal your source, instead of trying to sound intelligent yourself.

http://www.cbre.co.th/en/News/Article/Will-Prices-Rise-in-Old-Bangkoks-Condominium-Buildings

Try this link.

https://goo.gl/images/HQhCwt

Edited July 15, 2016 by Buzzz

[trogers]

The oldest highrise hotel in Thailand is the Indra Hotel at Pratunam. Built in 1976.

The oldest highrise condo in Thailand is Premier in Phrom Phong. Built in 1983.

Both are still standing strong...

When a condo detrroriates beyond repairs the CoOwners can vote to liquidate the land.

Land in the central business district is around 450,000bt per SQM.

What percentage of owners would you need for that?

Probably 100% unless it is written into the contracts. Which I doubt it is.

Otherwise it would surely be construed as theft and destruction of property.

And if that is correct, then there is absolutely no chance that the building can ever be demolished.

If I was the last person to not sign and the rest wanted to buy me out, the price would reach the nearest galaxy.

Used to be the same in Hong Kong and Singapore, 100% needed.

But now adjusted down to facilitate urban redevelopment. These two places have highrise residence over 50 years old.

[anotheruser]

Suspect that after 50 years a condo will be seen as so old fashioned that few will wish to live there.

This is what will happen like in any other place where space is in demand...

[impulse]

The oldest highrise hotel in Thailand is the Indra Hotel at Pratunam. Built in 1976.

The oldest highrise condo in Thailand is Premier in Phrom Phong. Built in 1983.

Both are still standing strong...

When a condo deteriorates beyond repairs the CoOwners can vote to liquidate the land.

Land in the central business district is around 450,000bt per SQM.

450K sounds like a lot, but compare that to a 30 story building using half the land, with each floor selling for 200K per SQM. That's liquidating 3,000,000 (200K x 0.5 x 30) worth of condos to get 450,000 back selling the land. Ouch.

Even amortizing that over a 50 year expected life leaves a little but of a sting. It would be interesting to see how real numbers would shake out.

[Berty100]

The oldest highrise hotel in Thailand is the Indra Hotel at Pratunam. Built in 1976.

The oldest highrise condo in Thailand is Premier in Phrom Phong. Built in 1983.

Both are still standing strong...

When a condo deteriorates beyond repairs the CoOwners can vote to liquidate the land.

Land in the central business district is around 450,000bt per SQM.

450K sounds like a lot, but compare that to a 30 story building using half the land, with each floor selling for 200K per SQM. That's liquidating 3,000,000 (200K x 0.5 x 30) worth of condos to get 450,000 back selling the land. Ouch.

Even amortizing that over a 50 year expected life leaves a little but of a sting. It would be interesting to see how real numbers would shake out.

None of the deteriorating condos have costed or are worth now 200K sqm.

[NickJ]

buy for self....Enjoy it. buy for an investment....make the seller or developer happy.......

[KittenKong]

450K sounds like a lot, but compare that to a 30 story building using half the land, with each floor selling for 200K per SQM. That's liquidating 3,000,000 (200K x 0.5 x 30) worth of condos to get 450,000 back selling the land. Ouch.

Even amortizing that over a 50 year expected life leaves a little but of a sting. It would be interesting to see how real numbers would shake out.

I did a quick calculation for my building a couple of years ago and based on asking prices the land my building is on is worth quite a lot more than the total value of all the units.

Of course asking prices dont mean very much here, but the ratio may not be far off the mark. Demolition costs would have to be added. I've no idea what they might be.

[Delight]

Suspect that after 50 years a condo will be seen as so old fashioned that few will wish to live there.

What can be old-fashioned about a condo? They are just several concrete floors with walls to divide up the units, and some elevators. The elevators can be replaced if needed and the inside of the the units can be renovated if needed also.

I actually prefer old buildings because they tend to have a lot more space than newer ones, the materials used tend to be better quality and most modern design is so tasteless as to be a joke.

I can envisage a world where Satellite TV , landline telephones and internet services via telephone lines will simply not be available. Technology of the past

CAT telecoms refused my request for “Fiber ‘ internet . Not possible using copper based systems. Therefore not available in my (8year old) condo

So imagine the technical changes in 50 years time

It is possible that existing condos cannot accommodate the new communication technologies. Thus leaving the building with little value. The land will of course be of high value.

[trogers]

Suspect that after 50 years a condo will be seen as so old fashioned that few will wish to live there.

What can be old-fashioned about a condo? They are just several concrete floors with walls to divide up the units, and some elevators. The elevators can be replaced if needed and the inside of the the units can be renovated if needed also.

I actually prefer old buildings because they tend to have a lot more space than newer ones, the materials used tend to be better quality and most modern design is so tasteless as to be a joke.

I can envisage a world where Satellite TV , landline telephones and internet services via telephone lines will simply not be available. Technology of the past

CAT telecoms refused my request for Fiber internet . Not possible using copper based systems. Therefore not available in my (8year old) condo

So imagine the technical changes in 50 years time

It is possible that existing condos cannot accommodate the new communication technologies. Thus leaving the building with little value. The land will of course be of high value.

Don't know where you are located, but I can run a fibre line to my unit for a few B1000s, and the condo is over 30 years old.

[trogers]

The oldest highrise hotel in Thailand is the Indra Hotel at Pratunam. Built in 1976.

The oldest highrise condo in Thailand is Premier in Phrom Phong. Built in 1983.

Both are still standing strong...

When a condo deteriorates beyond repairs the CoOwners can vote to liquidate the land.

Land in the central business district is around 450,000bt per SQM.

450K sounds like a lot, but compare that to a 30 story building using half the land, with each floor selling for 200K per SQM. That's liquidating 3,000,000 (200K x 0.5 x 30) worth of condos to get 450,000 back selling the land. Ouch.

Even amortizing that over a 50 year expected life leaves a little but of a sting. It would be interesting to see how real numbers would shake out.

None of the deteriorating condos have costed or are worth now 200K sqm.

Agreed. Over 30 years old units would probably be worth half that value and were bought for a tenth of that decades ago.

[KittenKong]

I can envisage a world where Satellite TV , landline telephones and internet services via telephone lines will simply not be available. Technology of the past

CAT telecoms refused my request for “Fiber ‘ internet . Not possible using copper based systems. Therefore not available in my (8year old) condo

So imagine the technical changes in 50 years time

Something doesn't add up there. All condos I've seen here were built with conduits going up the entire height of the building and other side conduits (often in corridor ceilings) servicing each room.

It should be quite simple to pull fibre up from the ground floor and along to your unit, though getting it into your unit would require the presence of a usable conduit inside your unit or some minor building work to channel one in. In my older building I could just use the phone line conduit, or one of the cable TV conduits, especially as if I had fibre I would not need a phone line and the fibre can also carry the TV signal. I dont bother changing from ADSL because currently the cost of fibre is too high. I expect that this will change in time.

I suspect that your real problem is that your building management doesnt want to deal with CAT, for whatever reason. Maybe you should ask them?

Any future technical changes will probably either involve thinner wires (in which case old conduits can be re-used) or no wires at all (in which case conduits wont be needed). Water and electricity distribution haven't changed much since they were first put into pipes or wires, so globally I dont see much change on the horizon.

[thaihome]

So it appears now TV has progressed from the 15 years long story the Bangkok condo market is soon to collapse to now the buildings themselves are going to collapse or be abandoned.

?

Actually what I have seen is buildings being bought out and then gutted to the basic concrete structure and rebuilt from there. Notable example is Galleria 12 hotel on Suk Soi 12.

TH

Edited July 17, 2016 by thaihome

[yellowboat]

The best places to invest are part of hotel chains. Many in Thailand do not pay the condo fees, so pools go

uncared for, elevators take a long time to fix, the lobby looks horrible. Renting in Thailand is better.

[ThailandLOS]

There are a few brands that provide 30 year warranty and put a lot of R&D into viable materials and construction techniques, e.g. Whizdom (who is currently building the Whizdom 101 on upper Sukhumvit in BKK) and Magnolia (which is behind Icon Siam by the river and the new Ratchadamri tower on Silom line, among other).

Everything Magnolia is top notch quality, but I agree that generally older constructions (built 10-20 years ago) if well maintained, tend to beat most of the new ones. Construction in Thailand nowadays is less solid and developers are rather going for more but smaller units (easier to sell).

The brands mentioned above are owned by the Chearavanont family (CP Group, True corp, etc etc) and is the best money can buy in terms of new construction.

[RBOP]

Depends on how well the building is constructed and maintained. Generally a high rise building is designed for 100 years, albeit no destructive fires, earthquakes, etc. At somepoint insurance will not cover a building and maintence becomes too much, the shareholders (owners of the units) will sell or tear it down and build a new one.

[1]" Expected Service Life of Structures

There is very little literature available on the subject of expected service life of structures. The lifespan of RCC generally is taken as 100 years. However, there are some expected as well as prevalent conventions about design life span, which are given here:

• Monumental Structures like temple, mosque or church etc - 500 to 1000 years
• Steel Bridges, Steel Building or similar structures - 100 to 150 years
• Concrete bridges or Highrise building or stone bridges etc - 100 years
• residential houses or general office/commercial buildings etc - 60 to 80 years
• Concrete pavements - 30 to 35 years
• Bituminous pavements - 8 to 10 years "

[bazza40]

Why should I care? I rent.

[williamgeorgeallen]

worst thing i have heard of is bathrooms falling in. it is not common for waterproofing to be used behind tiles in the bathrooms. after a while the grout fails and water get into the cement and weakens the rebar. i know of 2 guys who went home to their condo and found their bathroom floor collapsed into the one below. this would put me off living in an older development.

[impulse]

There are a few brands that provide 30 year warranty and put a lot of R&D into viable materials and construction techniques, e.g. Whizdom (who is currently building the Whizdom 101 on upper Sukhumvit in BKK) and Magnolia (which is behind Icon Siam by the river and the new Ratchadamri tower on Silom line, among other).

Everything Magnolia is top notch quality, but I agree that generally older constructions (built 10-20 years ago) if well maintained, tend to beat most of the new ones. Construction in Thailand nowadays is less solid and developers are rather going for more but smaller units (easier to sell).

The brands mentioned above are owned by the Chearavanont family (CP Group, True corp, etc etc) and is the best money can buy in terms of new construction.

A 30 year warranty sounds great, but the devil's in the fine print. What does the warranty cover, and what does it exclude? Is it materials and labor, or materials only? Does it cover aesthetics when your walls start cracking, or your doors and windows won't close any more, or is it limited to structural soundness?

What happens when the Whizdom 101 project is completed in 5 years and they incorporate under a new company called Whizdom 102 Inc. and Whizdom 101 Inc. is no longer in business?

Or do they simply offer to refund your original purchase price on a condo you've owned for 29.5 years and your share of the common land alone is worth more than you originally paid for your condo?

Real easy to write up a 30 year warranty that's absolutely meaningless.

Edited July 20, 2016 by impulse

[gregk0543]

Regarding concrete as a building material, I would like to point to the romans who used concrete to erect buildings which are still around nowadays, some 2000 years later.

Of course, the condos were not built using the same building techniques, but concrete as such cannot be faulted, only poor workmanship and poor design.

I was talking to an architect about this recently. You may not have read the article above quoted. The important difference and I have seen and admired those roman buildings is the rebar in the cement. That steel corrodes and after 50 - 100 years becomes unstable. So the problem is not the cement but the steel inside it.

A modern Reinforced concrete building now has a design life of 50 years now. Especially in Asia.

The roman hydraulic cement made of lime, sand, gravel and ash or broken brick will last a lot longer.

If we make 3 ft thick walls like the romans we could build a 150ft building. So nothing to the height we can make with RC buildings.

If you make a steel frame building like in US early sky scrapers than it will last over 100 years. Remember photos of all those guys on beams with rivets building the Empire State building.

So if you want to build a tall structure that will last use steel beams.

If you arent going to be around in 50 years use RC.

It is a little known thing.

Here is an article to illustrate.

https://simplesupports.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/the-truth-about-roman-concrete/

Edited July 20, 2016 by gregk0543

[ThailandLOS]

There are a few brands that provide 30 year warranty and put a lot of R&D into viable materials and construction techniques, e.g. Whizdom (who is currently building the Whizdom 101 on upper Sukhumvit in BKK) and Magnolia (which is behind Icon Siam by the river and the new Ratchadamri tower on Silom line, among other).

Everything Magnolia is top notch quality, but I agree that generally older constructions (built 10-20 years ago) if well maintained, tend to beat most of the new ones. Construction in Thailand nowadays is less solid and developers are rather going for more but smaller units (easier to sell).

The brands mentioned above are owned by the Chearavanont family (CP Group, True corp, etc etc) and is the best money can buy in terms of new construction.

A 30 year warranty sounds great, but the devil's in the fine print. What does the warranty cover, and what does it exclude? Is it materials and labor, or materials only? Does it cover aesthetics when your walls start cracking, or your doors and windows won't close any more, or is it limited to structural soundness?

What happens when the Whizdom 101 project is completed in 5 years and they incorporate under a new company called Whizdom 102 Inc. and Whizdom 101 Inc. is no longer in business?

Or do they simply offer to refund your original purchase price on a condo you've owned for 29.5 years and your share of the common land alone is worth more than you originally paid for your condo?

Real easy to write up a 30 year warranty that's absolutely meaningless.

The warranty coverage can be found on the website, and they mean business, no fine print there. The reputation of the brands is everything to the owners, saving a few bucks is nothing. You might want to read up on who these people are.

[ozyjon]

I live in a 30 year old house ant the rebar is slowly rusting away,

it's called concrete cancer where i come from, it can be repaired

but i live near the beach so we are all doomed.

The lifespan of a condo also has to do with how many people pay

levies, once they stop your condo is on the path of deterioration.

[mikiea]

I'd say 30 to 50 years is realistic.

5 years before infrastructure failures . ele/pluming/roof . note, nothing is to any western code or spks . and there concrete is shaky at best .