Work permit not required to rent out condos, confirms Phuket labour chief

[Peterw42]

Of course. No relevance whatsoever between employment and owning property for investment.

"No relevance whatsoever between employment and owning property for investment." - so, the foreigner who lives on Phuket, and owns one or more condo's, and continuously rent's it / them out to tourists, by actively marketing, advertising, taking bookings, making inspections, receiving money, cleaning, repairing, banking etc etc - IS NOT working here.

Really?

You still cannot rent your condo on a daily basis, as per the other post. So there would not be any marketing, advertising, cleaning etc, for monthly rental.

Daily rental, illegal as you are not a hotel.

Monthly rental legal and no work permit required.

I have read the same material as you have, and yes, this is what it states.

I am questioning the enforcement of such.

If the condo owner is living abroad, and continues to rent out short term, what action can be taken against them?

Also, once again, there are many distressed condo owners, who have long since moved on from Phuket, if they can not receive some modest income, so the condo pays its way, whilst on the market for sale, how many of these will walk away from the condo, simply unable to pay the fees?

This surely can not be good for ALL owners in the block, as management income now decreases.

*Bangs head on desk in shear frustration*

I am going to say this very slowly, so you understand.

You can rent your Condo !!!!! , You can get income.

If distressed condo owners have indeed left Phuket, its because of people like yourself spreading false information.

[NamKangMan]

@NamKamgMan

"Seriously dude, how about you try to consider a scenario other than your own.

You keep using your own personal circumstances as a blanket cover for this issue for everyone else.

Open your mind"

Their are no other scenarios.

< 30 days you are arrested

>30 days your fine

"Their are no other scenarios. < 30 days you are arrested" - really????

How will they arrest a condo owner using AirBnB from his lounge room in another country????

Seriously dude - open your mind.

[newnative]

The issue really wasn't about work permits. It's about violating the Hotel Act with rentals of less than 1 month--a growing problem. I don't think that issue is going to go away because you have lots of unhappy hotel owners and unhappy residential condo owners.

[NamKangMan]

@ Peterw42

I'll say it even slower for you.

What if the condo owner's only income is from short term rental????

Just how much long term rental do you think is on Phuket????

Jeez, there's more condos than expats here.

[mcfish]

I must admit Im a bit surprised at the Labor Chiefs actions Today. He went out of his way to put foreigners at ease which kind of throws a spanner in the works for Thai bashes. You know , that we are all despised and not wanted here.

In fact it sends a strong message that he wants farangs to invest in Phukets future.

I applaud him for that

[trogers]

Of course. No relevance whatsoever between employment and owning property for investment.

"No relevance whatsoever between employment and owning property for investment." - so, the foreigner who lives on Phuket, and owns one or more condo's, and continuously rent's it / them out to tourists, by actively marketing, advertising, taking bookings, making inspections, receiving money, cleaning, repairing, banking etc etc - IS NOT working here.

Really?

You still cannot rent your condo on a daily basis, as per the other post. So there would not be any marketing, advertising, cleaning etc, for monthly rental.

Daily rental, illegal as you are not a hotel.

Monthly rental legal and no work permit required.

I have read the same material as you have, and yes, this is what it states.

I am questioning the enforcement of such.

If the condo owner is living abroad, and continues to rent out short term, what action can be taken against them?

Also, once again, there are many distressed condo owners, who have long since moved on from Phuket, if they can not receive some modest income, so the condo pays its way, whilst on the market for sale, how many of these will walk away from the condo, simply unable to pay the fees?

This surely can not be good for ALL owners in the block, as management income now decreases.

If they had bought into condos thinking that they can operate them like hotels, they deserve to lose money. They are not investors, but speculators. Edited July 15, 2016 by trogers

[NamKangMan]

The issue really wasn't about work permits. It's about violating the Hotel Act with rentals of less than 1 month--a growing problem. I don't think that issue is going to go away because you have lots of unhappy hotel owners and unhappy residential condo owners.

Exactly.

So, I am wondering what their next move will be on enforcing this, by using the Hotel Act, now they have stated they will not use Thai Labor Laws.

Just on the issue of "unhappy residential condo owners" of which, I am not one, but would they not have a vested interest in having the option, in the future, should their circumstances change, to rent out their condo in any manner that derives an income?

Edited July 15, 2016 by NamKangMan

[mcfish]

I back the 30 day ruling. I hope its enforced to the max

But after 30 days the hotels could care less as that market share is minimal especially in high end hotels that have the most influence its basically unheard of

Edited July 15, 2016 by mcfish

[NamKangMan]

I back the 30 day ruling. I hope its enforced to the max

But after 30 days the hotels could care less as that market share is minimal especially in high end hotels that have the most influence its basically unheard of

The 30 day ruling still allows for 12 different neighbors, per year, for residential condo owners, and is legal.

Is this acceptable to residential condo owners?

[LivinginKata]

I stand by everything I have posted.

For me, a condo owner who lives in Thailand and is actively marketing, advertising, taking bookings, handing out keys, receiving money, inspecting, cleaning, repairing, banking etc - is working here.

The condo owner doing exactly the same, but from abroad, over the internet / phone, but using Thai's for the hands on work, is not working in Thailand.

I don't think this issue will go away after this announcement.

I think some wealthy Thai hotel owners, who are losing money to foreigners with small condo's, during tough times, have complained.

These "digital disruptors" are hard to police, but the Thai's have a lot of laws at their disposal to use.

I would agree with that - living here and actively marketing, advertising, dealing with the guest, should required a WP and pay income/property taxes.

Someone using an agent should not need a WP. Anyone renting day by day needs to be a registerded hotel. Seems cleart to me.

[mcfish]

I back the 30 day ruling. I hope its enforced to the max

But after 30 days the hotels could care less as that market share is minimal especially in high end hotels that have the most influence its basically unheard of

The 30 day ruling still allows for 12 different neighbors, per year, for residential condo owners, and is legal.

Is this acceptable to residential condo owners?

Your thinking on the assumption that all condo owners are renting through air bnb and that they all rent out every month, no problems? thats flawed thinking

The majority still want a no hassle 12 month lease and then work it back from there. And then there is low season when hardly anything moves so you have a potentially wasted 6 months.

long term is where its all heading now

[Peterw42]

@ Peterw42

I'll say it even slower for you.

What if the condo owner's only income is from short term rental????

Just how much long term rental do you think is on Phuket????

Jeez, there's more condos than expats here.

Last time I looked, there are 67,000,000 prospective tenants. You dont have to rent to an expat.

The short term rental crackdown is aimed at Thai people, as they are the main people doing it.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

@NamKamgMan

"Seriously dude, how about you try to consider a scenario other than your own.

You keep using your own personal circumstances as a blanket cover for this issue for everyone else.

Open your mind"

Their are no other scenarios.

< 30 days you are arrested

>30 days your fine

"Their are no other scenarios. < 30 days you are arrested" - really????

How will they arrest a condo owner using AirBnB from his lounge room in another country????

Seriously dude - open your mind.

The condo board apparently has the right to refuse AirBnB "guests".

I did see on several condos in Bangkok that the "guests" can indeed be arrested notifying them in advance that this is not a hotel and that they could be prosecuted for trespassing.

[NamKangMan]

I back the 30 day ruling. I hope its enforced to the max

But after 30 days the hotels could care less as that market share is minimal especially in high end hotels that have the most influence its basically unheard of

The 30 day ruling still allows for 12 different neighbors, per year, for residential condo owners, and is legal.

Is this acceptable to residential condo owners?

Your thinking on the assumption that all condo owners are renting through air bnb and that they all rent out every month, no problems? thats flawed thinking

The majority still want a no hassle 12 month lease and then work it back from there. And then there is low season when hardly anything moves so you have a potentially wasted 6 months.

long term is where its all heading now

"long term is where its all heading now" - I doubt it. Phuket is losing its western tourism market, and its western expats.

AirBnB is only one website being used.

Have a look at Agoda and Booking, just to name two more. Granted, there are the same properties advertised on both, but there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Phuket properties for short term and long term rent between these websites. Many are foreign owned residential properties.

Your "flawed thinking" is that a distressed condo owners will not lower their rental prices to just to meet the condo's fees, because it's been on the market for years and hasn't sold, they have long since left Phuket, and couldn't care about the property, or the current neighbors. They will offer 1 month at the price of 2 weeks.

What sort of tourist do you think this attracts to the condo block?

Edited July 15, 2016 by NamKangMan

[newnative]

12 new monthly neighbors a year is bad but it's better than, potentially, 365 daily new neighbors or 52 weekly new neighbors. And, that's just one condo. Multiply that by the number of condos being used as rentals in a condo project and you can see why condo residents, and hoteliers, are not happy with short-term rentals.

[mcfish]

@NamKamgMan

"Seriously dude, how about you try to consider a scenario other than your own.

You keep using your own personal circumstances as a blanket cover for this issue for everyone else.

Open your mind"

Their are no other scenarios.

< 30 days you are arrested

>30 days your fine

"Their are no other scenarios. < 30 days you are arrested" - really????

How will they arrest a condo owner using AirBnB from his lounge room in another country????

Seriously dude - open your mind.

Its up to the condo Juristic to enforce the 30 day law. You think illegal renters are going to enforce it on them selves?

The first thing that will happen is the power and water will be switched off. Thats exactly what they are doing where I live and the police will be called and an arrest warrant issued because the perp will one day return to find out why the damned power was cut and create a scene at Juristic office and then guess what? jail time !

Will they catch every single offender? Of course they will just as soon as they ban prostitution and expel all illegal school teachers lol

[NickJ]

If they ever did to decide to enforce the law...they would be one of the richestpolice forces on plant earth....just by doing the norm

[Peterw42]

@NamKamgMan

"Seriously dude, how about you try to consider a scenario other than your own.

You keep using your own personal circumstances as a blanket cover for this issue for everyone else.

Open your mind"

Their are no other scenarios.

< 30 days you are arrested

>30 days your fine

"Their are no other scenarios. < 30 days you are arrested" - really????

How will they arrest a condo owner using AirBnB from his lounge room in another country????

Seriously dude - open your mind.

The condo board apparently has the right to refuse AirBnB "guests".

I did see on several condos in Bangkok that the "guests" can indeed be arrested notifying them in advance that this is not a hotel and that they could be prosecuted for trespassing.

Its not inconceivable that the police could start making AirBNB bookings and arrest the person that turns up to give them the keys.

Booking.com is probably the worst offender. you can find a lot of Condo blocks on there listed like hotels, but only one room available, and in the fineprint , a little note about someone will meet you in the foyer with the keys etc.

[NamKangMan]

@ Peterw42

I'll say it even slower for you.

What if the condo owner's only income is from short term rental????

Just how much long term rental do you think is on Phuket????

Jeez, there's more condos than expats here.

Last time I looked, there are 67,000,000 prospective tenants. You dont have to rent to an expat.

The short term rental crackdown is aimed at Thai people, as they are the main people doing it.

So, if Thai's are the ones renting out short term, what does that do to domestic investment in Phuket property?

Thailand has an extremely high level of house hold debt at the moment, not to mention the bank's exposure to these properties as security.

Either way you look at it, ANY restriction on the property owner's ability to derive an income from their property, will have a direct effect on the property market, property investment, and property prices.

[NamKangMan]

12 new monthly neighbors a year is bad but it's better than, potentially, 365 daily new neighbors or 52 weekly new neighbors. And, that's just one condo. Multiply that by the number of condos being used as rentals in a condo project and you can see why condo residents, and hoteliers, are not happy with short-term rentals.

Sure, but 1 month has been deemed outside of the hotel license law, and outside of Thai labor law, so i guess it's legal.

I agree, in a reasonably sized condo block, that's still a lot of TOURISTS coming and going.

[mcfish]

I back the 30 day ruling. I hope its enforced to the max

But after 30 days the hotels could care less as that market share is minimal especially in high end hotels that have the most influence its basically unheard of

The 30 day ruling still allows for 12 different neighbors, per year, for residential condo owners, and is legal.

Is this acceptable to residential condo owners?

Your thinking on the assumption that all condo owners are renting through air bnb and that they all rent out every month, no problems? thats flawed thinking

The majority still want a no hassle 12 month lease and then work it back from there. And then there is low season when hardly anything moves so you have a potentially wasted 6 months.

long term is where its all heading now

"long term is where its all heading now" - I doubt it. Phuket is losing its western tourism market, and its western expats.

AirBnB is only one website being used.

Have a look at Agoda and Booking, just to name two more. Granted, there are the same properties advertised on both, but there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Phuket properties for short term and long term rent between these websites. Many are foreign owned residential properties.

Your "flawed thinking" is that a distressed condo owners will not lower their rental prices to just to meet the condo's fees, because it's been on the market for years and hasn't sold, they have long since left Phuket, and couldn't care about the property, or the current neighbors. They will offer 1 month at the price of 2 weeks.

What sort of tourist do you think this attracts to the condo block?

Not that relevant . Only a 17 pages on air bnb , Most of the offenders are Thai and what will they do? well put the rent Up of course.

And what exactly has it to do with work permits?

Are you so bored that dragging the thread off topic is number 1 priority? But hey every time you hit reply you further advertise the labour chiefs message so keep tapping away my friend its all good publicity

[NamKangMan]

@NamKamgMan

"Seriously dude, how about you try to consider a scenario other than your own.

You keep using your own personal circumstances as a blanket cover for this issue for everyone else.

Open your mind"

Their are no other scenarios.

< 30 days you are arrested

>30 days your fine

"Their are no other scenarios. < 30 days you are arrested" - really????

How will they arrest a condo owner using AirBnB from his lounge room in another country????

Seriously dude - open your mind.

Its up to the condo Juristic to enforce the 30 day law. You think illegal renters are going to enforce it on them selves?

The first thing that will happen is the power and water will be switched off. Thats exactly what they are doing where I live and the police will be called and an arrest warrant issued because the perp will one day return to find out why the damned power was cut and create a scene at Juristic office and then guess what? jail time !

Will they catch every single offender? Of course they will just as soon as they ban prostitution and expel all illegal school teachers lol

So, you don't think that a condo owner in your block, who can't sell, and who has left Phuket, and doesn't care about the property, rents his condo out for 1 month, at 2 week prices, in order to be legal, and so the condo pays its way for its fees, doesn't effect the value of YOUR property.

Good Luck with that.

Edited July 15, 2016 by NamKangMan

[NamKangMan]

@ mcfish

"Most of the offenders are Thai" - the photo of the "host" may be Thai, but the impression I got, and I welcome others to comment, the Thai, usually a female, was the partner of a foreigner.

[Peterw42]

Renting a condo for one month or longer (90% want 3 months minimum) involves a deposit, signing a lease, rent in advance, you often Connect and pay for your own power.

Why would someone on holidays want all that drama. Why would the landlord want all that drama.

Long term rentals are just that, long term.

And you are paying the cheaper long term rate.

[mcfish]

@NamKamgMan

"Seriously dude, how about you try to consider a scenario other than your own.

You keep using your own personal circumstances as a blanket cover for this issue for everyone else.

Open your mind"

Their are no other scenarios.

< 30 days you are arrested

>30 days your fine

"Their are no other scenarios. < 30 days you are arrested" - really????

How will they arrest a condo owner using AirBnB from his lounge room in another country????

Seriously dude - open your mind.

Its up to the condo Juristic to enforce the 30 day law. You think illegal renters are going to enforce it on them selves?

The first thing that will happen is the power and water will be switched off. Thats exactly what they are doing where I live and the police will be called and an arrest warrant issued because the perp will one day return to find out why the damned power was cut and create a scene at Juristic office and then guess what? jail time !

Will they catch every single offender? Of course they will just as soon as they ban prostitution and expel all illegal school teachers lol

So, you don't think that a condo owner in your block, who can't sell, and who has left Phuket, and doesn't care about the property, rents his condo out for 1 month, at 2 week prices, in order to be legal, and so it pays its fees, doesn't effect the value of YOUR property.

Good Luck with that.

350 rooms all up on air bnb. 90% are in the country its how air bnb works, owner greets tourist and tourist leaves reference , no owner, bad reference

That leaves 35 rooms O/S. and thats assuming all of the 350 rooms were farangs

You win man , the effect will be totally devastating

Keep humoring us puleeeeze

[NamKangMan]

Renting a condo for one month or longer (90% want 3 months minimum) involves a deposit, signing a lease, rent in advance, you often Connect and pay for your own power.

Why would someone on holidays want all that drama. Why would the landlord want all that drama.

Long term rentals are just that, long term.

And you are paying the cheaper long term rate.

This issue is about short term rentals in residential condo blocks, and what the authorities can do / will do to stop it.

You keep banging on about long term rental.

To my knowledge, there is no legal requirement for a condo owner to demand a signed lease, a deposit, rent in advance, the electric in the tenants name etc for ANY lease, after all, they own the property.

So this is no deterrent to 1 month holiday rentals that are really for 2 weeks.

[NamKangMan]

@ mcfish

"90% are in the country" - please provide a link for this.

"its how air bnb works," - I know how AirBnB works. The last time I used AirBnB the key to the property was under the front mat. I never met the owner for the 3 nights I was in the property, and this was in Europe, not Thailand. I had the whole place to myself.

It's your lack of knowledge of the property industry and hospitality industry that is providing the humor. Post away.

Edited July 15, 2016 by NamKangMan

[mcfish]

Your trolling so I leave you to it. Big victory today for farang landlords

Off to celebrate with a few beers.. chow

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

[Peterw42]

Renting a condo for one month or longer (90% want 3 months minimum) involves a deposit, signing a lease, rent in advance, you often Connect and pay for your own power.

Why would someone on holidays want all that drama. Why would the landlord want all that drama.

Long term rentals are just that, long term.

And you are paying the cheaper long term rate.

This issue is about short term rentals in residential condo blocks, and what the authorities can do / will do to stop it.

You keep banging on about long term rental.

To my knowledge, there is no legal requirement for a condo owner to demand a signed lease, a deposit, rent in advance, the electric in the tenants name etc for ANY lease, after all, they own the property.

So this is no deterrent to 1 month holiday rentals that are really for 2 weeks.

How do police catch drug dealers, they usually pretend to be drug buyers. maybe they could do something similar with short term accom providers. Maybe the police will get the jurastic person involved. I"m sure they will work it out.

The percentage of westerners doing short term rentals is probably very small, and the percentage doing it from outside Thailand even smaller.

All is not lost. the small percentage of westerners can now switch to long term rental, and as discussed a potential customer base of 67,000,000 Thai people and 300,000 expats. They should be able to cover their condo fees.

Most will probably prefer a long term tennant and income, and wont be bothered renting out for 2 weeks and calling it a month.

Every Condo I have ever rented has required a signed lease and a deposit. Thats pretty normal for long term rental. It protects the tenant and the owner.

[NamKangMan]

Renting a condo for one month or longer (90% want 3 months minimum) involves a deposit, signing a lease, rent in advance, you often Connect and pay for your own power.

Why would someone on holidays want all that drama. Why would the landlord want all that drama.

Long term rentals are just that, long term.

And you are paying the cheaper long term rate.

This issue is about short term rentals in residential condo blocks, and what the authorities can do / will do to stop it.

You keep banging on about long term rental.

To my knowledge, there is no legal requirement for a condo owner to demand a signed lease, a deposit, rent in advance, the electric in the tenants name etc for ANY lease, after all, they own the property.

So this is no deterrent to 1 month holiday rentals that are really for 2 weeks.

How do police catch drug dealers, they usually pretend to be drug buyers. maybe they could do something similar with short term accom providers. Maybe the police will get the jurastic person involved. I"m sure they will work it out.

The percentage of westerners doing short term rentals is probably very small, and the percentage doing it from outside Thailand even smaller.

All is not lost. the small percentage of westerners can now switch to long term rental, and as discussed a potential customer base of 67,000,000 Thai people and 300,000 expats. They should be able to cover their condo fees.

Most will probably prefer a long term tennant and income, and wont be bothered renting out for 2 weeks and calling it a month.

Every Condo I have ever rented has required a signed lease and a deposit. Thats pretty normal for long term rental. It protects the tenant and the owner.

"Most will probably prefer a long term tennant and income, and wont be bothered renting out for 2 weeks and calling it a month." - I agree, but that that WAS Phuket, not what Phuket is NOW.

Have you considered the fact there are currently 2000 condo's and 300 houses for sale on Phuket, right now, and who knows how many for rent as well. The owners are not living in all of them. Many are vacant.

This all makes for a lot of Phuket property sitting around, not being liquidated, and not earning. All the while, more are being built. There are long term consequences to this for the Phuket property market.

To stop short term rentals just takes away a part of the earning potential of a property.

I asked the question before, yet to get an answer. Haven't ALL condo owners got a vested interest in keeping the short term rental option open to them for the future, should their circumstances change?

Even the old timers who say, "When I die I'm leaving the missus the property." Well, won't you be leaving a property with diminished use rights?

I've taken some ridicule on these two threads, but I don't even own a property here. I have no financial interests in property here. In fact, as a long term renter, I am one of those to gain from this.

I have only put forward who I consider to be the winners and losers out of the enforcement of different laws, and who I see as breaking the law, and who I see as not, mainly regarding labor laws.

For me, with no financial interests in property here, all I see is a further reduction of the potential earning capacity of property here, and a restriction placed on owners to derive such an income.