[Opinion] It does not require a degree to teach low level students in Issan

[jdunks]

I have been teaching M-level students in Issan for ten years. While actually holding a degree myself, I feel it is unnecessary for teaching students below university level.

What is needed more is a personality that can deal with stress and ridiculousness.

I have been reading posts for a while here, and I am frustrated by some posters who are so stuck up with their degrees that they forget how ridiculous the teaching system in Thailand. I have met amazing teachers who teach without a degree, and have met degree-holding teachers who don't last a month here before ditching. Certain posters should be less harsh at attacking teachers who come on Thai Visa looking for help teaching without a degree. Look I know it's illegal, but being an American I respect something we call 'free speech'. Thai Visa seems to have adapted to Thailand in regards to the suppression of speech, closing topics and blocking members who admit to breaking the law.

Anyways, about Mattayom and Pratom schools here in Issan -

I agree with other teachers that teaching these students is akin to babysitting. The maturity levels of 12-13 year olds is about the same as 7 year olds back in the US, but the kids in the US have a bit more working upstairs. I speculate this is due to educational activities such as reading and writing being pushed aside as unimportant, lonely activities for the unsocial loser (besides finishing homework). Rather, sitting on the floor eating whatever with sticky rice for hours on end is what a 'normal' person does during the evening.

Any person with a little common sense would be able to come in and reform Thailand's flawed educational system - too bad that's not what they want from you. The main reason you are here is to look good for the parents and the school. Many of the Thai teachers honestly think they're better then you at teaching your native language, and they are quick to dismiss the culture of the language they are teaching (English) as inappropriate. 'Thai culture' is a card that can be pulled out when any argument needs explaining ....of which they cannot do. They copied western dress style - shirts, shoes, jackets, ect.., so recently, yet they feel they have the right to inform you how to politely wear your native dress. I always laugh inside when my superiors think they are hotshots for wearing jackets over shoddy shirts without ties.

You only have so much power as a teacher here anyways, it's a monarchy, and they love to keep you at a low rank.

What do you need to be a good teacher here?

1) Obedience - Your 'superiors' don't remember the great things you do, unless the picture is hung up on the wall in front of them. Working as hard as they think they have to get up through the ranks, your department head will want to toy with you in order to assert power. Common sense is of no use here, don't be surprised when they decide you have to change the format of the lesson plans that they already approved. Sometimes you gotta suck the big one - just don't appear too weak, or they'll eat you alive. Start out very obedient and slowly become more stubborn when confronted with nonsense. They may be upset sometimes, but you will be respected more, as they prey on the weak.

2) A lack of seriousness - The downfall of most 'real' teachers that I've seen here is that they take their students too seriously - getting frustrated when the students can't concentrate or produce even the most basic language. For Issan M2 level students and below, most of the students are (for lack of a better phrase) 'special needs'. Whoever decided that teaching English to beginners in only English needs to be slapped. Imagine how bored you would be as a 12 year old having Spanish classes in only Spanish. As a result of this, the kids just resort to antics and trouble making, also many schools do not allow the students to fail. Knowing this, the students don't have a care in the world about learning English. The best thing you can do is to trick them into having fun, while planting your English seeds subconsciously in their brains.

3) A decent high school education - Being from the USA I am proud to say that graduating from a government high school with above C grades will give you a pretty decent head on your shoulders. Many Thai students just cheat their way through education, copying work from pictures shared on phones. This is considered even 'normal' here. What doesn't help is that many rural Thai teachers teaching English give the students work filled with errors and uncommonly used words. For NES teachers, many high school graduates would be beneficial here, as the Uni degree holders usually flock to a higher paying, more sensible country to teach in.

There could be a few more points added here, but I'll leave it up to other posters to join in.

Edited July 17, 2016 by jdunks

[Scott]

I have worked with all levels of education among teachers in Thailand. In my experience here is the order that I would give as far as educational background is concerned:

--a Bachelor's in Education. These people have actively and early on chosen a career path of teaching. It wasn't just something they stumbled in to support themselves. They understand students, how they learn and they also have a lot of other skills which make a school run well (they can help with the speech contest, the class play, Christmas shows etc.).

--a Bachelor's in another field. These people may not perform as well as B.Ed., but they do understand the mechanics of education, learning, studying and time management. They can usually prepare lesson plans and write reasonably well. In the classroom, if they have no experience, they may stumble but they usually get the drift of teaching reasonably well.

--A post secondary diploma in any field. Again, they have cracked the books and understand the mechanics of learning.

--A TEFL trained teacher. TEFL provides good methodology. Some of the TEFL teachers perform right up there with the B.Ed. folks. I have not run into a TEFL trained teacher who was not able to walk into a class and do a lesson and keep reasonable control from the first day. I am sure they exist, but I haven't run into one yet.

--High School only from a Western Country are pretty poor performers overall. Even the old ones who have been around a while don't seem to get the complexity of education. Students are either good or bad; smart or dumb. They lack an understanding of the process of learning and generally do not have anything that could even reasonably construed as a methodology to their teaching.

There are exceptions, but this is based upon quite a few years of experience.

When schools, for a variety of reasons, have unqualified or under-qualified teachers, it's a good idea to have a classroom teacher who actually is involved and guiding the teaching process. The native speaker can help with pronunciation, sentence stress and other aspects of the learning process. Thailand, however, doesn't do that. They expect everything from everybody. The end result is an abysmal track record at English and a lot of money wasted.

[piersbeckett]

Regarding the teaching of English Language in State schools in Issan I agree you need only (what used to be called in my day) an 'O' Level in English Language, an 'A' Level would be better still but a degree, no.

What you do need though, IMHO, to be able to 'put over' your knowledge to best effect is a 'teacher training' qualification in teaching English as a foreign language worth its sort and to obtain that, you'll likely need to be capable of passing (what used to be) an 'A' level.

Scott's said it all, really.

[jdunks]

↑↑ A little trigger-happy with that Tab button are you?

Edited July 17, 2016 by jdunks

[DogNo1]

Being qualified and talented as a teacher is one thing and having a degree is another. It used to be that physical education teachers were drafted to teach ESL in America. Now in California even having an MA in linguistics or an MA in English won't get you in the door. You must also posses an ESL certificate. As times change, the gatekeepers set the bar higher and higher. Now in Japan you will not be hired to teach part-time unless you have a BA and BA candidates will lose out to those who have an MA. For full-time work, you must have a Ph.D. or the equivalent. Of course, having the degree does not guarantee that anyone is a talented and effective teacher but they won't get in the door without it.

[maewang99]

do you even think that the word "teacher" or "school" or even the word "child" means anything nearly the same as it does in the western world? example, when I think of the word school... one of the last things that would enter my conscious mind, notwithstanding that it would at some point, is that of a buildlng, or set of buildings, with a big flagpole out front... for many many reasons. I could write a 10 page essay on it, easily. couldn't you? But in Thailand, that's pretty much all what the English word "school" means. No, you do not need a degree... in fact, you pretty much don't need much of anything going for you... even at expensive Thai private schools perhaps as far as I know because I have yet to see Thai folks of any class enjoying what almost all of the rest of the world, including most of Asia, considers to be their first or 2nd favorite pastime... reading books. Again, using the word "reading" in a western sense.... not that of copying the calligraphy or looking at the pictures... as an "exercise" of the mind (no, it doesn't hurt) instead of almost otherwise having nothing else to do with it except maybe numb it with alcohol or drugs. unless the "student" is kept socially isolated, in most cases, regardless of what school he or she goes to... the culture they face is one where most folks don't even know where their local library is, whereas back home we are just as likely to know where the library is as we are that of the nearest post office or hospital.

Edited July 18, 2016 by maewang99

[gandalf12]

do you even think that the word "teacher" or "school" or even the word "child" means anything nearly the same as it does in the western world? example, when I think of the word school... one of the last things that would enter my conscious mind, notwithstanding that it would at some point, is that of a buildlng, or set of buildings, with a big flagpole out front... for many many reasons. I could write a 10 page essay on it, easily. couldn't you? But in Thailand, that's pretty much all what the English word "school" means. No, you do not need a degree... in fact, you pretty much don't need much of anything going for you... even at expensive Thai private schools perhaps as far as I know because I have yet to see Thai folks of any class enjoying what almost all of the rest of the world, including most of Asia, considers to be their first or 2nd favorite pastime... reading books. Again, using the word "reading" in a western sense.... not that of copying the calligraphy or looking at the pictures... as an "exercise" of the mind (no, it doesn't hurt) instead of almost otherwise having nothing else to do with it except maybe numb it with alcohol or drugs. unless the "student" is kept socially isolated, in most cases, regardless of what school he or she goes to... the culture they face is one where most folks don't even know where their local library is, whereas back home we are just as likely to know where the library is as we are that of the nearest post office or hospital.

I assume what you mean is the interpretation of the words is not the same in Thailand as in the West. The words are fully defined and have specific meaning, how they are used is something entirely different

[jdunks]

do you even think that the word "teacher" or "school" or even the word "child" means anything nearly the same as it does in the western world? example, when I think of the word school... one of the last things that would enter my conscious mind, notwithstanding that it would at some point, is that of a buildlng, or set of buildings, with a big flagpole out front... for many many reasons. I could write a 10 page essay on it, easily. couldn't you? But in Thailand, that's pretty much all what the English word "school" means. No, you do not need a degree... in fact, you pretty much don't need much of anything going for you... even at expensive Thai private schools perhaps as far as I know because I have yet to see Thai folks of any class enjoying what almost all of the rest of the world, including most of Asia, considers to be their first or 2nd favorite pastime... reading books. Again, using the word "reading" in a western sense.... not that of copying the calligraphy or looking at the pictures... as an "exercise" of the mind (no, it doesn't hurt) instead of almost otherwise having nothing else to do with it except maybe numb it with alcohol or drugs. unless the "student" is kept socially isolated, in most cases, regardless of what school he or she goes to... the culture they face is one where most folks don't even know where their local library is, whereas back home we are just as likely to know where the library is as we are that of the nearest post office or hospital.

I assume what you mean is the interpretation of the words is not the same in Thailand as in the West. The words are fully defined and have specific meaning, how they are used is something entirely different

No need for assumption here - we all know what that word 'means'. Maybe you should have read a little more into what you are trying to 'school' him with.

You state that the words 'teacher', 'school' and 'child' are fully defined, yet nowhere in maewang99's response did they use the words 'define' or 'definition' to prove their point - 'means' was used. Means, in this case is a form of the word 'mean' which can be defined as such:

mean¹

mēn/

verb

3rd person present: means

1. 1.

   intend to convey, indicate, or refer to (a particular thing or notion); signify.

   "I don't know what you mean"

   synonyms: signify, convey, denote, designate, indicate, connote, show, express, spell out;

   stand for, represent, symbolize;

   imply, suggest, intimate, hint at, insinuate, drive at, refer to, allude to, point to;

   literarybetoken

   "flashing lights mean the road is blocked"

   • (of a word) have (something) as its signification in the same language or its equivalent in another language.

     "its name means “painted rock” in Cherokee"
   • genuinely intend to convey or express (something).

     "when she said that before, she meant it"
   • be of some specified importance to (someone), especially as a source of benefit or object of affection.

Quite fitting for the way maewang99 used the word.

Furthermore, the concept of 'specific meaning' you talk about is nonsense. There are endless amounts of 'meanings' (a gerund of 'mean') for words of the English language - always evolving with it's speakers and culture.

[michaellee]

Agreed with everyone here, I don't know why any school in and around Isan or even Bangkok needs a degree to teach kindergarten english to the Mathyom 1-3 or Prathom 1-5, they lack focus, as they are busy talking amongst themselves and not give a damn about the lesson. My personal opinion to teach Thai english the only way is to give them daily usable vocabulary, reading, writing, no game playing and giving them weekly spelling and dictation test in the classroom. Worst is they don't even have books or notebook to take notes, if ask they look at you as though you are someone who are bothering and boring them.

[chowny77]

I think the main problem with the Thai education system is that it only centers on Bangkok and is the only concern of the MOE and the TCT. The rest of the country can go hang as far as the BKK Hi-so's care and leaves the rest of the country with no say in the matter. Outside of BKK they struggle to even get a native English speaker through the door because of the requirements that BKK has set in place, as well as the budget assigned for schools to pay NES outside of BKK. A few years ago I was advised to take a degree course in education and I am happy I stood by my guns and said no. For the pay, workload and the just non logical approach that most schools have towards education, I feel I am better off not have wasted my time and money on a degree which outside of Thailand would mean nothing. I know many who have already left and I feel I will be joining their ranks soon as teaching in Thailand has gone beyond a joke now, and the ones I feel sorry for are the students that will miss out because of the way Thailand has mismanaged education completely and I see no change in the future.

[lostinisaan]

It doesn't require a degree to fly to Mars.

Edited July 20, 2016 by lostinisaan

[lostinisaan]

I think the main problem with the Thai education system is that it only centers on Bangkok and is the only concern of the MOE and the TCT. The rest of the country can go hang as far as the BKK Hi-so's care and leaves the rest of the country with no say in the matter. Outside of BKK they struggle to even get a native English speaker through the door because of the requirements that BKK has set in place, as well as the budget assigned for schools to pay NES outside of BKK. A few years ago I was advised to take a degree course in education and I am happy I stood by my guns and said no. For the pay, workload and the just non logical approach that most schools have towards education, I feel I am better off not have wasted my time and money on a degree which outside of Thailand would mean nothing. I know many who have already left and I feel I will be joining their ranks soon as teaching in Thailand has gone beyond a joke now, and the ones I feel sorry for are the students that will miss out because of the way Thailand has mismanaged education completely and I see no change in the future.

I'm in the middle of studying for a degree that also allows me to teach in other countries. I might consider North Korea once I've graduated.

[rkidlad]

If your degree isn't in teaching or something connected to the English language, it really doesn't mean much when teaching.

We are talking about ESL level here. The salaries don't even pay that. The Thai schools want a 'teacher'. You know, PGCE or masters, etc. Schools here often don't understand why they can't find these kind of people so resort to employing anybody. They then act surprised and indignant that the teacher they employed on a 10 month contract for 35k a month isn't a real teacher.

At an ESL level, we really need to get away from this idea of a teacher like in the west. At this level, you're getting an instructor. Usually someone young on a gap year. They do their TEFL, take lots of nice pics for Facebook and tell the world how amazing their experience was with Thai children. If Thailand wants serious teachers, it will have to be serious about education and pay the money. Until then - you get what you pay for.

If you wanna work in a poor school, with poor kids, god bless you. But you can't do it forever. If you're teaching in an all right school in Bangkok, you'd be very surprised how 'not poor' many of the kids are. Someone is pocketing large amounts of money and it's not the teachers. Usually the one with a Mercedes basically parked inside the school for all to see.

But I digress - If I had to choose a degree vs non-degree teacher, I'd go with the degree holder. It's just a safer bet and can get WP. What I'd really be looking for is someone with integrity and half-a-brain. Someone who's had a real job back home and knows what it means to work everyday.

Quite often young degree holders have this arrogance about them. "I have a degree ergo I'm qualified to teach". No, you're not. You still have to gain experience. And how long 'til you realise that 'you are' is not 'your', and It's not 'could of'. How the hell did you hand in university work like that and not get told otherwise.

I get that people are young and sometimes don't know. But if you can't even be bothered to improve your language skills now you're a teacher, you can't be taking the job very seriously.

[gandalf12]

In reality it doesn't matter what thee individual feels is appropriate it is what the authorities say you need. I don't really understand the protracted discussions on this. If the authorities want you to have a degree, which probably is not necessary in reality, then you have to have a degree.

[jdunks]

In reality it doesn't matter what thee individual feels is appropriate it is what the authorities say you need. I don't really understand the protracted discussions on this. If the authorities want you to have a degree, which probably is not necessary in reality, then you have to have a degree.

Don't know whose reality you're talking about - clearly not the reality of the numerous non-degree holding teachers that are working throughout the country.

Edited July 21, 2016 by jdunks