"what Thaksin Had Done Wrong"

[hammered]

Now talking of corruption and firetrucks and boats old Samak has been keeping a low profile since his vicious but typical intervention against all who criticized Mr. Thaksin before the fall of his idol. With a bit of luck Thailand has seen the last of this old dinosaur.

Unfortunately, this guy has more lives than the 9 lives of a cat. Remember, he was a wash out as Bangkok Governor, literally giving up in his last year and focusing on his cooking show. Then a few years later gets elected to the Senate representing Bangkok. That shouldn't be possible, but shows that this guy won't go away.

But then again of course there was no substance to the claim about a certain candidate's literature being included with an official mass mailing from the then election commission to certain parts of Bangkok. This candidate was widely rumored to be none other than the most pro-government candidate in the senatorial election. Of course other candidates were not allowed to send out such literature or campaign. Of course the now thoroughly disgraced election commission of the time were happy to accept complaints about anyone who had made a single statement against the government but were completely unwilling to accept any evidence or even allegation of the aforementioned. Then again the election commission spent a day or two in jail and are now discredited.

That is not to say that Mr. Thaksins most outspoken, famous and arguably obnoxious supporter in Bangkok would not have been elected to the senate without alleged help and turning a blind eye, but it would no doubt not have been so convincing.

Luckily, we do not at the moment have to suffer the utterences of this rabid extremist, but you are probably right that he will make a reappearance at some point. It is a shame that his role in events of 1976 have never been properly investigated and it is even bizarre that he could have been so close to the Thaksin administration which had its share of October people even if they were regarded as nigh on traitors by a lot of the grassroots October people.

[ColPyat]

It is a shame that his role in events of 1976 have never been properly investigated and it is even bizarre that he could have been so close to the Thaksin administration which had its share of October people even if they were regarded as nigh on traitors by a lot of the grassroots October people.

Welcome to Thai politics - no friends forever, no enemies forever.

Giles Ungkaporn has layed out these conflicts between the different factions in the people's movement being on opposing sides rather well in his latest book, 'A coup for the rich'. If you neglect the communist rethoric, he does have several interesting points.

Get it fast though...

[hammered]

It is a shame that his role in events of 1976 have never been properly investigated and it is even bizarre that he could have been so close to the Thaksin administration which had its share of October people even if they were regarded as nigh on traitors by a lot of the grassroots October people.

Welcome to Thai politics - no friends forever, no enemies forever.

Giles Ungkaporn has layed out these conflicts between the different factions in the people's movement being on opposing sides rather well in his latest book, 'A coup for the rich'. If you neglect the communist rethoric, he does have several interesting points.

Get it fast though...

I think Giles was sued by Samak for asking him to answer three questions before Samaks governatorial run relating to his involvement in the run up to the 1976 incident.

Does the title of his book relate to the coup of the Junta or the previous Thaksin cabal takeover of the administration? Both could easily be described as coups in different meanings of the word and possibly with different definitions of the rich!

You are right about politcs and strnge bedfellows that is for sure.

[ColPyat]

I think Giles was sued by Samak for asking him to answer three questions before Samaks governatorial run relating to his involvement in the run up to the 1976 incident.

Does the title of his book relate to the coup of the Junta or the previous Thaksin cabal takeover of the administration? Both could easily be described as coups in different meanings of the word and possibly with different definitions of the rich!

You are right about politcs and strnge bedfellows that is for sure.

It is about the the 19th sept. coup, but does obviously go into the Thaksin aera and beyond to understand the context. And to add, he obviously has does not like Thaksin at all.

Samak is particularly revolting mainly because of his involvement in the extremist right wingers of the 70s, and no wonder that Giles has a particular problem with him, given that the village scouts were at one point nearly successful in lynching his father.

Rather interesting though in this context is that recently Thanin, the dictator after the '76 incident, is making great pro government speaches as well. Interesting bed fellows now our government led by the good and virtous has...

[Plus]

Those village scouts represented Thailand's rural majority. Has things changed much since then?

[younghusband]

Those village scouts represented Thailand's rural majority. Has things changed much since then?

That is a foul lie, of which you should be ashamed.The village scouts represented nothing of the kind.They were a fascist mob supported, funded and exploited by powerful interests in Bangkok.

[ColPyat]

Those village scouts represented Thailand's rural majority. Has things changed much since then?

It was a bit more complicated than that. It was/is a fascist organisation invented and built up by the elite for the purpose to stop any progressive reforms in Thailand, and representing the eilte's ideas on how Thailand should be run.

And yes, things have unfortunately not changed much, regarding the elite's ideas on how this country should be run, as is more and more appearant now.

I would advise you to read 'rituals of national loyalty'.

[Siripon]

Those village scouts represented Thailand's rural majority. Has things changed much since then?

That is a foul lie, of which you should be ashamed.The village scouts represented nothing of the kind.They were a fascist mob supported, funded and exploited by powerful interests in Bangkok.

The latest of which was TRT funded, ie the mob attack on The Nation, Suriyasai speaking for the PAD in Udon surrounded and threatened by a baying crowd egged on by TRT MPs, The Democrats attacked in Chiang Mai- all last year.

[Jai Dee]

Govt to launch 'black paper' on Thaksin's alleged graft

The government's information war room is preparing a "black paper" listing cases of alleged corruption and abuse of power under the former Thaksin government, according to the minister in charge of the project.

Prime Minister's Office Minister Thirapat Serirangsan said Thursday that the book wll help the general public and international community better understand Thailand's political situation.

Mr. Thirapat said five issues -- corruption at the policy-making level, extrajudicial killings and related violations of human rights, 'Thaksinomics', alleged undemocratic administrative behaviours of the Thaksin government, and alleged lese majeste charges -- will be included.

The government will issue the black book in both Thai and English, and issue it on DVDs and CDs for distribution in and outside the country. He did not say how many would be published or produced or when.

In early February the former opposition Democrat party launched a "black book" detailing 34 cases of alleged corruption and abuse of power under the Thaksin government.

The party said the 350-page book would help the interim government dig into irregularities and counter ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinwatra's denials of involvement. It appeared at a time when Mr. Thaksin was busy giving interviews to the foreign media in a bid to clear himself of

corruption allegations.

Source: TNA - 16 February 2007

[LindsayBKK]

Ousted Thai PM set for Sydney exile

February 13, 2007 09:33pm

DEPOSED Thai prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has no plans to return to politics and may consider setting up a temporary home in Sydney.

Mr Thaksin was ousted in September in a bloodless coup and replaced with a military-installed government.

He has not returned to Thailand since he was overthrown while he was out of the country.

While he believes he could go home, he says he has no plans to return – for the moment at least.

"I'm not considering going back yet because I will have to worry about my safety and also I should not add any more confusion to the situation now in Thailand," Mr Thaksin told ABC TV's Foreign Correspondent program.

The former leader – whom the military accused of corruption – plans instead to set up house in a number of countries, including Australia.

"For example, I ask my friend to look for a house in Sydney, especially the eastern suburbs," Mr Thaksin said.

For now he is considering his future but politics doesn't feature in his plans.

"You will not see me in politics, not just in the next generation but for life," Mr Thaksin said.

As a politician, he said he had devoted himself to the country and the people but had been misunderstood.

"I try to help the people in the poor, in the rural areas and the working class people," Mr Thaksin said.

"The divisive (sic) has been created not by me, (but) by those who want to topple me."

The former leader denies allegations of corruption, saying his accusers are guilty of much worse behaviour.

Some suggest construction faults at Bangkok's new airport, which have forced the re-opening of the closed Don Muang airport, are a result of corruption.

Mr Thaksin admitted there may be some defects in construction but they could be corrected.

He said he couldn't be expected to keep an eye on every detail as prime minister.

"Anyway, you know there might be some corruption but ... I cannot go in everything in detail as a prime minister," Mr Thaksin said.

[sriracha john]

Govt to launch 'black paper' on Thaksin's alleged graft

Prime Minister's Office Minister Thirapat Serirangsan said Thursday that the book wll help the general public and international community better understand Thailand's political situation.

Mr. Thirapat said five issues -- corruption at the policy-making level, extrajudicial killings and related violations of human rights, 'Thaksinomics', alleged undemocratic administrative behaviours of the Thaksin government, and alleged lese majeste charges -- will be included.

Good to see them back on track. This was needed earlier, but I look forward to its publication.

[younghusband]

Those village scouts represented Thailand's rural majority. Has things changed much since then?

That is a foul lie, of which you should be ashamed.The village scouts represented nothing of the kind.They were a fascist mob supported, funded and exploited by powerful interests in Bangkok.

The latest of which was TRT funded, ie the mob attack on The Nation, Suriyasai speaking for the PAD in Udon surrounded and threatened by a baying crowd egged on by TRT MPs, The Democrats attacked in Chiang Mai- all last year.

What are you talking about? Do you know what the Village Scouts are and what their record was in the 1970's of rape and murder of innocents, egged on or at least condoned by the ruling elite.? Do you know anything about Thai history?

If you are just saying that the TRT employed rural mobs to hassle the Democrats/PAD last year, just say so.You may well be right but this slovenly use of language and argument is intellectually bankrupt.The two cannot be compared.

Edited February 16, 2007 by younghusband

[Jeffery Stanthorpe]

[--The Nation 2006-11-21

Don't forget the 2500 "drug dealers/users" that he had assasinated 3 years ago !!!! was that a crime ??

[Tony Clifton]

Reminder: Thaksin interview at 8:30 this evening on ABC Australia.

[Siripon]

Those village scouts represented Thailand's rural majority. Has things changed much since then?

That is a foul lie, of which you should be ashamed.The village scouts represented nothing of the kind.They were a fascist mob supported, funded and exploited by powerful interests in Bangkok.

The latest of which was TRT funded, ie the mob attack on The Nation, Suriyasai speaking for the PAD in Udon surrounded and threatened by a baying crowd egged on by TRT MPs, The Democrats attacked in Chiang Mai- all last year.

What are you talking about? Do you know what the Village Scouts are and what their record was in the 1970's of rape and murder of innocents, egged on or at least condoned by the ruling elite.? Do you know anything about Thai history?

If you are just saying that the TRT employed rural mobs to hassle the Democrats/PAD last year, just say so.You may well be right but this slovenly use of language and argument is intellectually bankrupt.The two cannot be compared.

Of course I know about the Village Scouts, I was a student in 1976 and fully remember the Krating Daeng and Nawapon thugs in Bangkok, the horror of Thammasart as all 3 vented their evil anger.

Uneducated and indeed ill-educated, their attacks on the left at the time were despicable and the police turned a blind eye.

Switch forward to last year-Klong Toei mobs paid to threaten The Nation, several motorcycle taxis ranks at The Manager threatening Sonthi, thousands of farmers in Udon massing in buses under TRT MPs intimidating Suriyasai.

The police doing nothing.

Luckily the coup leaders nipped the violence in the bud as it were, but the scenarios can be compared, the rich

and powerful, (last year Thaksin and his cronies) using the dispossessed and ignorant for their own ends.

[younghusband]

Those village scouts represented Thailand's rural majority. Has things changed much since then?

That is a foul lie, of which you should be ashamed.The village scouts represented nothing of the kind.They were a fascist mob supported, funded and exploited by powerful interests in Bangkok.

The latest of which was TRT funded, ie the mob attack on The Nation, Suriyasai speaking for the PAD in Udon surrounded and threatened by a baying crowd egged on by TRT MPs, The Democrats attacked in Chiang Mai- all last year.

What are you talking about? Do you know what the Village Scouts are and what their record was in the 1970's of rape and murder of innocents, egged on or at least condoned by the ruling elite.? Do you know anything about Thai history?

If you are just saying that the TRT employed rural mobs to hassle the Democrats/PAD last year, just say so.You may well be right but this slovenly use of language and argument is intellectually bankrupt.The two cannot be compared.

Of course I know about the Village Scouts, I was a student in 1976 and fully remember the Krating Daeng and Nawapon thugs in Bangkok, the horror of Thammasart as all 3 vented their evil anger.

Uneducated and indeed ill-educated, their attacks on the left at the time were despicable and the police turned a blind eye.

Switch forward to last year-Klong Toei mobs paid to threaten The Nation, several motorcycle taxis ranks at The Manager threatening Sonthi, thousands of farmers in Udon massing in buses under TRT MPs intimidating Suriyasai.

The police doing nothing.

Luckily the coup leaders nipped the violence in the bud as it were, but the scenarios can be compared, the rich

and powerful, (last year Thaksin and his cronies) using the dispossessed and ignorant for their own ends.

It's clear you do know about the Village Scouts which makes your intellectual dishonesty even worse than I suspected.To compare the actions of a few ruffians (a tiny minority among the legitimate counter protests) last year with the disgusting behaviour -bestial scenes of murder and rape- of the Village Scouts in the 1970's is Orwellian doublespeak.Thaksin was a popularly elected leader and whatever his faults had legitimacy.The same cannot be said for the miltary and feudal throwbacks who egged on the murderers in the 1970's.

Are all you apologists for this illegal junta so crazed with bias that you cannot recognise that in the street protests last year both sides can take credit for generally civilised behaviour?No deaths, sensible crowd control by PAD, police restraint etc. It was the one aspect of the last 18 months of almost unmitigated negative political developments that Thais can take real pride in.

[Tony Clifton]

Reminder: Thaksin interview at 8:30 this evening on ABC Australia.

Will be aired again on:

Saturday 17 Feb at 02:00

Saturday 17 Feb at 05:30

Saturday 17 Feb at 23:07

They may ask the family to pay, but if they ask to pay we'll pay. But we have to protect our right that by law we don't have to pay. Why we have to pay?

A man struggling with both the English language and the truth, spreading it so thick he's got lies smeared all over his face. Quite a puzzled look on the interviewer's face following the first few questions. I really wonder how he managed to pull that PhD stunt 30 years ago when the man can hardly express himself in a clear manner even today.

[ColPyat]

Of course I know about the Village Scouts, I was a student in 1976 and fully remember the Krating Daeng and Nawapon thugs in Bangkok, the horror of Thammasart as all 3 vented their evil anger.

Uneducated and indeed ill-educated, their attacks on the left at the time were despicable and the police turned a blind eye.

Switch forward to last year-Klong Toei mobs paid to threaten The Nation, several motorcycle taxis ranks at The Manager threatening Sonthi, thousands of farmers in Udon massing in buses under TRT MPs intimidating Suriyasai.

The police doing nothing.

Luckily the coup leaders nipped the violence in the bud as it were, but the scenarios can be compared, the rich

and powerful, (last year Thaksin and his cronies) using the dispossessed and ignorant for their own ends.

I wonder though why you then support now the same ideals of government, patriotism and Thainess represented then by the inventors of these right wing militias, and now by the junta. The same question do now many anti junta academics of the oktober generation ask their comrades of those dark days who joined this right wing junta (and to be fair, many have asked this the ones supporting Thaksin as well).

How many times have you posted your admiration for Sondhi L., but he is not from the left - he is from the social conservatives, whose argumentation and thought has only enabled the horrors of those days. Don't forget - Sondhi L. has with his media empire played an active role in the latest Thai massaker - the drugwar killings, another concerted effort by the different Thai elites in fighting a social threat with brutal violence.

It is not only me, but many noted Thai academics, who do question why people of the okober generation could have been so blinded in their hate against Thaksin, that they have joined forces with their earstwhile enemies.

Even though dubious, but easer to understand is the logic behind the october people who have joined Thaksin, as they saw there an opportunity to realise some of their ideas of real development for the rural poor.

You never answer the question about Surayud's personal involvement in May '92, another one of those regular Thai horrors. How can you so vehemently support a government that is made up of so many people who have actively taken part in several massakers against the people?

Yes, Surayud has apologised to the people of the three Changwats, but has he brought the perpetrators of Tak Bai to justice? Nops. They are stil free.

The unruly elements some of the nastier TRT people have organised were not comparable to the village scouts, Navapon or Krathing Daeng. Nobody died, was raped or tortured, and the rumors on them mobilising these armed forces were nothing but rumors - no proof whatsoever, other than Sondhi L.'s outrageous accusations.

None of the people accused of that are in prison, or have courtcases filed against them.

And now one after the other of these cancers of Thai society find a home in the government you support, just because they make a wai and pay lipservice to the new overlords.

And what do we have now? National economic policy cannot be publically criticised, and instead we get "pan din Thai" patriotic brain washing, constant barrages of "kwahm pen Thai".

Sorry, but that is almost pure fascism, Thai style, with a good dose of elitism and classism.

Fortunately there are still some people around here who have not lost touch with reality, and who do not get blinded by either Thaksin, or the latest power grab by the same old elites whose misgovernance has only caused one massaker after the other in Thai history.

Edited February 16, 2007 by ColPyat

[John K]

I forgot where I read this but I guess this thread is as good a place as any. lese majeste is the issue here. Apparently the government is trying to charge Thaksin with this for what he said, however he was not in Thailand when he said it. I could be wrong about it as I only skimmed the story so please correct me, but it is a bit scary if the laws of Thailand extend beyond Thailand’s borders.

[ColPyat]

but it is a bit scary if the laws of Thailand extend beyond Thailand’s borders.

There are many things right now that are *a bit scary*...

[hammered]

Of course I know about the Village Scouts, I was a student in 1976 and fully remember the Krating Daeng and Nawapon thugs in Bangkok, the horror of Thammasart as all 3 vented their evil anger.

Uneducated and indeed ill-educated, their attacks on the left at the time were despicable and the police turned a blind eye.

Switch forward to last year-Klong Toei mobs paid to threaten The Nation, several motorcycle taxis ranks at The Manager threatening Sonthi, thousands of farmers in Udon massing in buses under TRT MPs intimidating Suriyasai.

The police doing nothing.

Luckily the coup leaders nipped the violence in the bud as it were, but the scenarios can be compared, the rich

and powerful, (last year Thaksin and his cronies) using the dispossessed and ignorant for their own ends.

I wonder though why you then support now the same ideals of government, patriotism and Thainess represented then by the inventors of these right wing militias, and now by the junta. The same question do now many anti junta academics of the oktober generation ask their comrades of those dark days who joined this right wing junta (and to be fair, many have asked this the ones supporting Thaksin as well).

How many times have you posted your admiration for Sondhi L., but he is not from the left - he is from the social conservatives, whose argumentation and thought has only enabled the horrors of those days. Don't forget - Sondhi L. has with his media empire played an active role in the latest Thai massaker - the drugwar killings, another concerted effort by the different Thai elites in fighting a social threat with brutal violence.

It is not only me, but many noted Thai academics, who do question why people of the okober generation could have been so blinded in their hate against Thaksin, that they have joined forces with their earstwhile enemies.

Even though dubious, but easer to understand is the logic behind the october people who have joined Thaksin, as they saw there an opportunity to realise some of their ideas of real development for the rural poor.

You never answer the question about Surayud's personal involvement in May '92, another one of those regular Thai horrors. How can you so vehemently support a government that is made up of so many people who have actively taken part in several massakers against the people?

Yes, Surayud has apologised to the people of the three Changwats, but has he brought the perpetrators of Tak Bai to justice? Nops. They are stil free.

The unruly elements some of the nastier TRT people have organised were not comparable to the village scouts, Navapon or Krathing Daeng. Nobody died, was raped or tortured, and the rumors on them mobilising these armed forces were nothing but rumors - no proof whatsoever, other than Sondhi L.'s outrageous accusations.

None of the people accused of that are in prison, or have courtcases filed against them.

And now one after the other of these cancers of Thai society find a home in the government you support, just because they make a wai and pay lipservice to the new overlords.

And what do we have now? National economic policy cannot be publically criticised, and instead we get "pan din Thai" patriotic brain washing, constant barrages of "kwahm pen Thai".

Sorry, but that is almost pure fascism, Thai style, with a good dose of elitism and classism.

Fortunately there are still some people around here who have not lost touch with reality, and who do not get blinded by either Thaksin, or the latest power grab by the same old elites whose misgovernance has only caused one massaker after the other in Thai history.

Hi Colpyat

Through my wife I know a number of what could be described as grassroots October people (ie they have their ideals and no money). They reckon that their compatriots that joined Thaksin did it for money and power and it had nothing to do with ideals or notions of helping the poor. Quite strong Thai language is used to describe these people. Equally the ones I know do not support the Junta or those who back it. They see the whole Thaksin versus the Junta thing as a battle between elite elements of Thai society who just want the country for their own uses and who do not actuallty care at all about the rest whether they are peasants, working class or middle class. However, I recognise the view of people like this is probably in a minority even if it seems realistic to me.

[ColPyat]

However, I recognise the view of people like this is probably in a minority even if it seems realistic to me.

It's rather complicated, i think. There are huge debates going on about that subject. Giles Ungpakorn's latest book - "A Coup for the Rich" - has a very comprehensive chapter on this conflict, and the reasoning of the different groups of the people's movement for joining this, or the other side, or rejecting both sides, and which politcal theories are behind their decisions.

[Tony Clifton]

Giles Ungpakorn's latest book - "A Coup for the Rich"

Is it about the Sep. 19 coup? When was it published and appeared on the shelves?

If it is indeed solely about the last coup, he didn't give it much of a chance between writing , editing and publishing the book. Unless it's only purpose was to rake in a few quick baht on the sales while coup related books are hot.

[ColPyat]

Giles Ungpakorn's latest book - "A Coup for the Rich"

Is it about the Sep. 19 coup? When was it published and appeared on the shelves?

If it is indeed solely about the last coup, he didn't give it much of a chance between writing , editing and publishing the book. Unless it's only purpose was to rake in a few quick baht on the sales while coup related books are hot.

One shouldn't comment or speculate on a book one hasn't read, or hasn't read critics by competent people about it.

No, it most definately will not get into the shelves, there is already a dabate about the book going on, and so far Chula is not selling it in their bookstore because of fear. And no, it is not just about the coup, but what led to the coup, the background of people involved, the historical background, description of people's movement, etc.

And no, it is not about "a few quick baht". It's a niche product for people who have a serious interest in political science and Thai studies.

[Tony Clifton]

Seems like the book contains sensitive quotes from a book already banned previous to the coup and stores aren't yet ready to chance throwing it on the shelves.

An English-language book on the coup–whether academic, as Giles claims, or political-propagandistic, as is his usual approach–is also being “banned”.

Chula bans second coup book

Chulalongkorn University Book Centre (CU Book Centre) has banned “A Coup for the Rich”, written by a political scientist at Chulalongkorn University.

Assoc Professor Giles Ungpakorn yesterday accused CU Books of going back on its promise to sell his book titled “A Coup for the Rich: Thailand’s Political Crisis”, an academic work.

Giles said the bookshop’s purchasing department had agreed to sell his book and already had 500 copies in stock. “When asked [yesterday] why there were no copies for sale, I was told the management are reconsidering the sale of this book,” he said.

CU Book Centre manager Uraiwan Kornwitthayasin denied they had promised to sell the book. She said it was a sensitive issue as Giles had quoted from Paul Handley’s book “The King Never Smiles”. “We needed other academics and experts to read the book and we are waiting for their opinions,” she said.

Giles defended his book saying it was a collection of his academic work that had been presented at international academic forums on Thai Studies in Northern Illinois and Singapore.

The book contains four chapters: The Thaksin Crisis and the Coup for the Rich; Inventing Ancient Thai Traditions: an analysis of the Monarchy; The politics of the Peoples Movement and the “October People”, and Southern Woes: Why the Thai state is responsible for the violence in the South and problems of the tsunami.

Meanwhile, the CU Book Centre has decided to overturn its ban on, “The September 19th coup: a coup for a democratic regime under the constitutional monarchy”, an anthology critical of the coup, written by leading academics and intellectuals.

The bookstore manager admitted her staff wouldn’t dare to sell the book published by the Fah Diew Kan Publishing earlier, because the publishing house had one of its publications confiscated by the special branch due to charges of lese majeste.

“Now customers can order the book from our bookshops,” Uraiwan confirmed.

However, the publisher, Thanaphol Eawsakul, yesterday told The Nation he had received complaints from many customers that the book was nowhere to be found at Chulalongkorn Book Centre.

A group of academics at Chulalongkorn, and the 19th September Network - an anti-coup group - is organising a seminar on “Academic freedom and freedom of expression” next week at Chulalongkorn University.

Jiles’s book, “A coup for the Rich”, will be launched at the Bangkok Foreign Correspondents Club on March 13.

Subhatra Bhumiprabhas

The Nation 13 February 2007

[reddove]

So, comparied to American Pres. G.W. Bush and V.P. Chaney. PM Thaksin is really not that bad of a man, more of a Saint. He did a good job. If some plane carring and important visitor crashes and burned while land at the new air

[hammered]

So, comparied to American Pres. G.W. Bush and V.P. Chaney. PM Thaksin is really not that bad of a man, more of a Saint. He did a good job. If some plane carring and important visitor crashes and burned while land at the new air

I dont think you get to be a saint by heading up a government that oversaw a good few thousand extra judicial killings. I do agree that Bush and Cheney are awful, howeevr.

[blaze]

So, comparied to American Pres. G.W. Bush and V.P. Chaney. PM Thaksin is really not that bad of a man, more of a Saint. He did a good job. If some plane carring and important visitor crashes and burned while land at the new air

I dont think you get to be a saint by heading up a government that oversaw a good few thousand extra judicial killings. I do agree that Bush and Cheney are awful, howeevr.

I don't dispute the horrible culpability of Taksin in the drug war murders one bit- nor the culpability of a society that either couldn't have cared less, by and large, or actually continues to say it was Taksin's finest hour. Why is this government not pursuing those crimes? Could it be that human rights issues is one place this government really doesn't want to go: Because if Taksin goes down for the drug war killings, who will take the rap for Tak Bai?

[ColPyat]

I don't dispute the horrible culpability of Taksin in the drug war murders one bit- nor the culpability of a society that either couldn't have cared less, by and large, or actually continues to say it was Taksin's finest hour. Why is this government not pursuing those crimes? Could it be that human rights issues is one place this government really doesn't want to go: Because if Taksin goes down for the drug war killings, who will take the rap for Tak Bai?

And there is so much more that this could lead into, not at least the '76 massaker, what led to it, and who was involved, and right up to people seriously questioning in public that artificial construct that is taught presently as Thai "history".

One day that whole mess will get untangled, and that will be a rude awakening for many people.

[Siripon]

Those village scouts represented Thailand's rural majority. Has things changed much since then?

That is a foul lie, of which you should be ashamed.The village scouts represented nothing of the kind.They were a fascist mob supported, funded and exploited by powerful interests in Bangkok.

The latest of which was TRT funded, ie the mob attack on The Nation, Suriyasai speaking for the PAD in Udon surrounded and threatened by a baying crowd egged on by TRT MPs, The Democrats attacked in Chiang Mai- all last year.

What are you talking about? Do you know what the Village Scouts are and what their record was in the 1970's of rape and murder of innocents, egged on or at least condoned by the ruling elite.? Do you know anything about Thai history?

If you are just saying that the TRT employed rural mobs to hassle the Democrats/PAD last year, just say so.You may well be right but this slovenly use of language and argument is intellectually bankrupt.The two cannot be compared.

Of course I know about the Village Scouts, I was a student in 1976 and fully remember the Krating Daeng and Nawapon thugs in Bangkok, the horror of Thammasart as all 3 vented their evil anger.

Uneducated and indeed ill-educated, their attacks on the left at the time were despicable and the police turned a blind eye.

Switch forward to last year-Klong Toei mobs paid to threaten The Nation, several motorcycle taxis ranks at The Manager threatening Sonthi, thousands of farmers in Udon massing in buses under TRT MPs intimidating Suriyasai.

The police doing nothing.

Luckily the coup leaders nipped the violence in the bud as it were, but the scenarios can be compared, the rich

and powerful, (last year Thaksin and his cronies) using the dispossessed and ignorant for their own ends.

It's clear you do know about the Village Scouts which makes your intellectual dishonesty even worse than I suspected.To compare the actions of a few ruffians (a tiny minority among the legitimate counter protests) last year with the disgusting behaviour -bestial scenes of murder and rape- of the Village Scouts in the 1970's is Orwellian doublespeak.Thaksin was a popularly elected leader and whatever his faults had legitimacy.The same cannot be said for the miltary and feudal throwbacks who egged on the murderers in the 1970's.

Are all you apologists for this illegal junta so crazed with bias that you cannot recognise that in the street protests last year both sides can take credit for generally civilised behaviour?No deaths, sensible crowd control by PAD, police restraint etc. It was the one aspect of the last 18 months of almost unmitigated negative political developments that Thais can take real pride in.

Young husband, for someone so young your patronising, condescending insufferable arrogance takes some beating.

Why don't you go down to the slums of Klong Toei and ask the 'legitimate' counter protesters why they besieged The Nation, go up to Udon and ask them why in their thousands they threatened the PAD.

I guarantee they could only say because they were told to.

In the 70s it all spiralled out of control, don't try to tell me about the atrocities, I remember to this day the Thammasart boy hanging fron the tamarine tree, bloodied and dead with a sandal stuffed into his mouth being beaten by a chair by a frenzied mob. And he was one of many.

Thaksin was going down the same road. He refused to debate with the politicians in Parliament, he refused to debate with his critics outside, all he could do was rely on henchmen like Newin and Yongyut to harass and provoke the PAD.

He failed utterly the test of a democrat, namely willingness to debate and defend one's viewpoint.

The beauty of the last 18 months has been ,so far, to be able to retrieve that crisis of dictatorship democracy without any violence and hopefully move forward to a more accountable society.