Overpriced real estate

[theguyfromanotherforum]

I own a condo in Toronto where I can sell it or rent it in less than 24 hours. I am now in a position to buy something in Thailand. Bangkok would be the obvious choice as it is the melting pot, however, I think the developer asking prices are ridiculous and obviously based on speculation as the only people buying condos are flippers. Unlike in Canada and the rest of developed world in Thailand you only need to pay a pittance for the contract and pay small monthly fees until the project is built. This is how the price artificially goes up. Then everyone is trying to unload their contracts. I have done this myself and know the processes. 

 

I might as well buy in Pattaya as the prices are collapsing. Would be nice to avoid check in check out time at hotels and leave at own convenience. Yeah... I think that's what I'll do.

[mcfish]

I own a condo in Toronto where I can sell it or rent it in less than 24 hours. I am now in a position to buy something in Thailand. Bangkok would be the obvious choice as it is the melting pot, however, I think the developer asking prices are ridiculous and obviously based on speculation as the only people buying condos are flippers. Unlike in Canada and the rest of developed world in Thailand you only need to pay a pittance for the contract and pay small monthly fees until the project is built. This is how the price artificially goes up. Then everyone is trying to unload their contracts. I have done this myself and know the processes. 

 

I might as well buy in Pattaya as the prices are collapsing. Would be nice to avoid check in check out time at hotels and leave at own convenience. Yeah... I think that's what I'll do.

Asolutely not true. I have an ex air bnb tenet who is back in Toronto 6 months ago and we became firm friends. He is 100% committed to moving to Thailand as soon as he sells his house.. 6 months on the market and not even close to a sale!

So now he tries renting, can't get a tenant.. Beautiful million dollar house

Of course I believe him over you, why? Because your credibility is shot on real-estate knowledge

Just look at how you botched this thread!!!

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

[smutcakes]

28 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Any argument or speculation using the "asking price" is absolute rubbish. I can list my 5 million baht condo for 10 million, it doesnt mean its worth 10 million or will sell for 10 million. 200k a sqm probably is the new normal for stupid asking price. Unless you are at the land office monitoring every sale, no idea what something sold for. 

I know blocks in Pattaya were the list/asking price is 2 million. You can look at real estate sites, talk to owners, talk to condo manager, and come to the conclusion the price is 2 million. Reality is, the only sales in the block in the last 6 months are for 1 million.

 

 

There are transactions completed in excess of 300K. Whilst i am not directly involved in sales i work in a related industry and know there are numerous properties transfered above that price.

 

In buildings like Park Chidlom when units are sold they often never reach the open market as they are bought up by existing owners as investment properties. This is not heresay it is undeniable fact and would be confirmed by any other party who has first hand knowledge of the market.

 

Incidentally i would say up to 90% of the high value condos are Thai purchasers.

[dotpoom]

Just a line to thank all the contributors for the excellent information.

   I suppose to sum it up, if you're buying a condo, buy a Freehold one... 

   

[theguyfromanotherforum]

12 minutes ago, mcfish said:

Asolutely not true. I have an ex air bnb tenet who is back in Toronto 6 months ago and we became firm friends. He is 100% committed to moving to Thailand as soon as he sells his house.. 6 months on the market and not even close to a sale!

So now he tries renting, can't get a tenant.. Beautiful million dollar house

Of course I believe him over you, why? Because your credibility is shot on real-estate knowledge

Just look at how you botched this thread!!!

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

Absolute nonsense and a complete lie!

 

And I was actually starting to believe the stuff you were posting.

 

Even if your fake friend is real he must own a "million dollar" shack that's not even close to Toronto.... but people 90km from Toronto like to say they  are in Toronto when in reality they are not even close. Hint. Houses in Toronto are more than a million bucks. 

 

Next you will start telling me that real estate in Bangkok is hotter then Toronto where literally tens of thousands of real rich Chinese (unlike the peasants in Thailand) are falling over themselves to own a piece of property for their sons and daughters studying at world class universities. ROFL

 

 

[trogers]

4 minutes ago, dotpoom said:

Just a line to thank all the contributors for the excellent information.

   I suppose to sum it up, if you're buying a condo, buy a Freehold one... 

   

 

I do not know of any condo in Thailand that is not freehold.

 

You may be confused over the difference between a condo and an apartment...

[mcfish]

Absolute nonsense and a complete lie!

 

And I was actually starting to believe the stuff you were posting.

 

Even if your fake friend is real he must own a "million dollar" shack that's not even close to Toronto.... but people 90km from Toronto like to say they  are in Toronto when in reality they are not even close. Hint. Houses in Toronto are more than a million bucks. 

 

Next you will start telling me that real estate in Bangkok is hotter then Toronto where literally tens of thousands of real rich Chinese (unlike the peasants in Thailand) are falling over themselves to own a piece of property for their sons and daughters studying at world class universities. ROFL

 

 

Your completedy missing the point!

It doesn't matter where the condo is on the planet at all.

When you said you can rent or sell yours in "24 hours" I literally sprayed my tablet with coffee. You have a level of ignorance regarding all things real estate that is breathtaking.

Only by dropping you're price by 75% will you sell it in 24 hours
Maybe..

You continue to embarrasse your self right from the 1st post to the last
But don't stop because I put my coffee away now [emoji1]

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

[dotpoom]

Just now, trogers said:

 

I do not know of any condo in Thailand that is not freehold.

 

You may be confused over the difference between a condo and an apartment...

 

Thank you Trogers.

   I had assumed that the difference between "Freehold" and "Not Freehold" was that the "Not Freehold" Condo was on "Leased Land" and the "Freehold" on "Not Leased" land.

   You are right, I never really understood the difference between a Condo and an Apartment (nothing to do with the context we are discussing here).

   My wife (Thai) tells me an Apartment is what Thai people rent for about 1,500 -2,500 Baht a month (cannot buy them), where as a Condo you can rent or buy.

   I would be grateful if you could explain the difference to me and and especially what difference it makes in the context of this subject....IE.., when it comes to Freehold and Not Freehold.

PS. Back home we really don't have "Apartments" or "Condos".  We call them "Flats". We only hear people from America using the terms fir named,  thus the confusion between a Condo and an Apartment.

[Peterw42]

16 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

 

There are transactions completed in excess of 300K. Whilst i am not directly involved in sales i work in a related industry and know there are numerous properties transfered above that price.

 

In buildings like Park Chidlom when units are sold they often never reach the open market as they are bought up by existing owners as investment properties. This is not heresay it is undeniable fact and would be confirmed by any other party who has first hand knowledge of the market.

 

Incidentally i would say up to 90% of the high value condos are Thai purchasers.

 

I dont doubt those transactions exist, But isn't that a bit of a false market. Existing owners buying at the price they think its worth, or want it to be worth. Thats how De Beers controls the price of diamonds. 

I could own a coffee shop and sell coffee for $50 a cup, and I could walk around the counter and keep buying for $50 a cup. Is the coffee worth $50 a cup?

 

[swerver]

14 hours ago, guzzi850m2 said:

So are you saying that those condo's are build on leased land?

So what happens to the condo owners when the lease runs out?

 

Exactly that; The Lease Ran Out. Time to pack up.

It most likely will be turned into an office tower one of the first one that happen to a few decades ago is located on the corner of Soi Sam Rudy and Wireless Road opposite the former Shell House office tower.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

4 minutes ago, mcfish said:

Your completedy missing the point!

It doesn't matter where the condo is on the planet at all.

When you said you can rent or sell yours in "24 hours" I literally sprayed my tablet with coffee. You have a level of ignorance regarding all things real estate that is breathtaking.

Only by dropping you're price by 75% will you sell it in 24 hours
Maybe..

You continue to embarrasse your self right from the 1st post to the last
But don't stop because I put my coffee away now

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk
 

 

You can spill your coffee all you want, the fact is I had 30 people lining up to rent my downtown Toronto condo in less than 24 hours. That was 3 years ago and I still have the same problem free tenant paying off my mortgage.

 

Unlike you, however, I am quick to admit my mistakes like I did. You are just a liar and a bad one at that.

[trogers]

14 minutes ago, dotpoom said:

 

Thank you Trogers.

   I had assumed that the difference between "Freehold" and "Not Freehold" was that the "Not Freehold" Condo was on "Leased Land" and the "Freehold" on "Not Leased" land.

   You are right, I never really understood the difference between a Condo and an Apartment (nothing to do with the context we are discussing here).

   My wife (Thai) tells me an Apartment is what Thai people rent for about 1,500 -2,500 Baht a month (cannot buy them), where as a Condo you can rent or buy.

   I would be grateful if you could explain the difference to me and and especially what difference it makes in the context of this subject....IE.., when it comes to Freehold and Not Freehold.

PS. Back home we really don't have "Apartments" or "Condos".  We call them "Flats". We only hear people from America using the terms fir named,  thus the confusion between a Condo and an Apartment.

 

A condo involves collective ownership over the land the buildings sit on.

 

The land of apartment buildings has only one owner.

 

Thus, we can only lease apartment units.

[dotpoom]

Just now, theguyfromanotherforum said:

 

You can spill your coffee all you want, the fact is I had 30 people lining up to rent my downtown Toronto condo in less than 24 hours. That was 3 years ago and I still have the same problem free tenant paying off my mortgage.

 

Unlike you, however, I am quick to admit my mistakes like I did. You are just a liar and a bad one at that.

 

 Not joking, back home now that the students are back in the market looking for accommodation in our capital city because the  Collages are starting back, you will see Q's forming around blocks up to 36 hrs. before viewing even starts....and paying top dollar.

  Families who are having their houses re-possessed by the "Vultures" have to be given emergency accommodation because rent are so high that ordinary people can't afford them.

[dotpoom]

Just now, trogers said:

 

A condo involves collective ownership over the land the buildings sit on.

 

The land of apartment buildings has only one owner.

 

Thus, we can only lease apartment units.

 

Thanking you kindly for that Trogers....clears up things nicely.

[abrahamzvi]

16 hours ago, mcfish said:

Bangkok prices have gone through the stratosphere. I think the new one going up across from Nana bts will be easy 250 plus

Glad I bought mine 12 years ago in a well maintained building near Nana bts for 65k no lease limit.

I truly feel sorry for the renters still waiting for the baht to implode and the bubble to burst.. They missed the boat big time in Bangkok at least

OH well there is always Myanmar I guess but I hear the horse has already bolted there as well

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk
 

 

Be careful, the property prices in Miramar are increasing rapidly. Property in Yangoon isn't that much cheaper than in Bangkok.

 

If one is interested in buying properties where prices are still reasonable and the locations have good future potential, then one should look at places like Chiang Mai or Khon Kaen. There in central locations one can still get luxurious condos for 65 -80,000 Baht

[elgordo38]

18 hours ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Just checked this particular building and you are right and I'm stupid. However, these leasehold buildings seem to be much better maintained than a lot of 10 year old condos I have seen. The above building was erected in 1998.

I live in such a building in Chiang Mai I am a renter but if I had the money and trusted the government here is where I would buy and remodel. It has a pool and the elevator stops at every floor. In the new condo build across the road the elevator stops at every other floor no pool except for the water that pools on the flat roof. I can walk out to my balcony not climb out of a window to access it. The neighbor next door cranks up his TV with surround sound and I barely hear it what a quality build. I image a unit that would need a remodel would run around 40,000 a square meter maybe slightly more. Moral of the story they just don't make em like they used to and the greed factor has much multiplied to the point where corners are cut at every conceivable point during the new construction phase. To top it all off the location is one of the best in the city. 

Edited August 23, 2016 by elgordo38
being older and forgetful

[smutcakes]

3 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

 

I dont doubt those transactions exist, But isn't that a bit of a false market. Existing owners buying at the price they think its worth, or want it to be worth. Thats how De Beers controls the price of diamonds. 

I could own a coffee shop and sell coffee for $50 a cup, and I could walk around the counter and keep buying for $50 a cup. Is the coffee worth $50 a cup?

 

 

I suppose you could build an argument it is if you wanted to, but units have been sold externally at that level, and when put into comparison in the Bangkok of other price levels which are being transferred at, it is easy to see why it commands that value.

 

I am not sure why in a major world capital city 200k per sqm is seen as such a high amount when measured against other major cities, which for the most part it is still some way below. There will always be sellers with unrealistic expectations, but market forces dictate that at some point there is a level where demand and supply for a product meet at a certain level.

 

The value of something to one person is always going to be different for different people. If someone feels 300K per sqm represents good value for a product for them, who are you and I to disagree, we all have different expectations and place importance on different factors in all parts of life.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Exactly. To me 200k per square meter is extremely poor value in the city that is very dirty and condos that are built and maintained to astonishingly low standards. I don't see rich Chinese investing very much in Bangkok. I see them investing in canada.

[smutcakes]

17 minutes ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Exactly. To me 200k per square meter is extremely poor value in the city that is very dirty and condos that are built and maintained to astonishingly low standards. I don't see rich Chinese investing very much in Bangkok. I see them investing in canada.

 

I know you are just trolling but i will reply anyway.

1) Many high priced condos are well maintained and built to high standard

2) To me 200k per sqm in a capital city where i work and live with family is good value for some Condominium units.

3) I could not care less what the Chinese are investing in, we are not even talking about the investment market, rental yields etc

4) Most of the wealthy Thai population are Thai-Chinese, they already control most business, developments in Thailand and make up the main buyers of high priced units in Thailand.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

7 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

 

I know you are just trolling but i will reply anyway.

1) Many high priced condos are well maintained and built to high standard

2) To me 200k per sqm in a capital city where i work and live with family is good value for some Condominium units.

3) I could not care less what the Chinese are investing in, we are not even talking about the investment market, rental yields etc

4) Most of the wealthy Thai population are Thai-Chinese, they already control most business, developments in Thailand and make up the main buyers of high priced units in Thailand.

 

I am not trolling. If you live here with the family, of course it makes sense to own. I am not buying the condo for the same purpose, so to me 200k is very poor value. At that price I can get a condo in one of the hottest markets in North America that will be nicely maintained even after 30 years. 

 

Like I said in my previous post, there are other nice older developments in bangkok that are in 60-90k range NOT leasehold.

[smutcakes]

4 minutes ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

 

I am not trolling. If you live here with the family, of course it makes sense to own. I am not buying the condo for the same purpose, so to me 200k is very poor value. At that price I can get a condo in one of the hottest markets in North America that will be nicely maintained even after 30 years. 

 

Like I said in my previous post, there are other nice older developments in bangkok that are in 60-90k range NOT leasehold.

 

And as I said, everyone has different desires and standards. What is a nice development for you will not meet the 'nice' level of someone else.

 

So your overall point in this thread is that 200k per sqm does not make sense or give value for money for you. Well good for you. For other people it does, which is why the prices are what they are.

[umbanda]

For people looking for investment......Chiang Rai may be the target. Here developers still building condos and mix use townhouses,  and... since 2013,  I still hearing that Chinese investors are buying everything they can.. Some of  the reasons may  be that Chiang Kong and Chiang Saen are the main entry to Thailand from China, by road and river, and land prices still no so high like in Chiang Mai, another area that Chinese are investing.

Edited August 23, 2016 by umbanda

[tifino]

 

for any expat up there, from Melbourne:

 

Albion is being touted as the new IT place to be (or to at least $ell Up to get away from)

 

 

555 last place to be on Earth

 

 

[gemguy]

Well I am no expert on real-estate but over the years when I have looked at apartments to RENT and I am told that people bought the condo units and want to rent them out I am thinking they were more or less over charged or ripped off as far as I can make out.

As soon as I walked in and looked around I decided immediately that I was not interested.

The prices are way over priced while the construction is shoddy and the materials used are cheap and flimsy while the overall design and layout of the rooms and in particular the bathrooms are commonly dumb or just short of dumb and makes me wonder what exactly were the designers and engineers thinking.

The hallways are uncomfortable looking and kind of  creepy feeling while the lighting is bad and the paint choice is bizarre and the elevators are questionable while the stairs and access to the stairs concerning fire and safety make you feel unsafe while the lobbies of the building and reception areas are mickey mouse attempts at looking luxurious ..but they look to difficult to explain.

Then when talking to the service management you just know they are not going to be effective or efficient while I walked out thinking: Geez ..and people actually bought into theses affairs for 5 to 6 to 7 and 10 million baht for a name and supposed great location and the concept of a luxury condo.

Sure if you really shop around you can find something that was actually built with some integrity and style and quality while the engineers and designers actually did their jobs well resulting in good value all around....but most of them are built just to quickly capitalize on the booming real estate market and done on the cheap ..while they milk the market for all they can get.

Just my observations after 28 years here

[ExpatOilWorker]

14 hours ago, smutcakes said:

 

I expect you will need to pay close to full condo price for buying a new 30 year lease contract. Just look at the prices of St.Regis which is leasehold, they were not that far below 185 Rajdamri which is condominium.

 

A couple of things you can be sure. As soon as you pay for a new lease the value of your unit will start depreciating again, and secondly the CPB are not in the business of providing social housing on prime real estate land, so people need to be prepared to pay heavily to renew.

 

 

Your opinion is as right and as wrong as mine. There is a certain amount of uncertainty attached to leasehold. 

 

Some leasehold just get extended a few years at the time, until an alternative project is being finalized. Keep in mind, that they will most likely have to tear the exciting building down to make way for the new lease.

 

We will know in about 8 years time, when Sansiri and another building at Soi Mahadlek Luang 1 come up for renewel. 

[smutcakes]

50 minutes ago, gemguy said:

Well I am no expert on real-estate but over the years when I have looked at apartments to RENT and I am told that people bought the condo units and want to rent them out I am thinking they were more or less over charged or ripped off as far as I can make out.

As soon as I walked in and looked around I decided immediately that I was not interested.

The prices are way over priced while the construction is shoddy and the materials used are cheap and flimsy while the overall design and layout of the rooms and in particular the bathrooms are commonly dumb or just short of dumb and makes me wonder what exactly were the designers and engineers thinking.

The hallways are uncomfortable looking and kind of  creepy feeling while the lighting is bad and the paint choice is bizarre and the elevators are questionable while the stairs and access to the stairs concerning fire and safety make you feel unsafe while the lobbies of the building and reception areas are mickey mouse attempts at looking luxurious ..but they look to difficult to explain.

Then when talking to the service management you just know they are not going to be effective or efficient while I walked out thinking: Geez ..and people actually bought into theses affairs for 5 to 6 to 7 and 10 million baht for a name and supposed great location and the concept of a luxury condo.

Sure if you really shop around you can find something that was actually built with some integrity and style and quality while the engineers and designers actually did their jobs well resulting in good value all around....but most of them are built just to quickly capitalize on the booming real estate market and done on the cheap ..while they milk the market for all they can get.

Just my observations after 28 years here

 

I dont think many people when talking about luxury condos are talking 5-10 million baht. Would be interested in which buildings you are referring to?

[smutcakes]

53 minutes ago, gemguy said:

Well I am no expert on real-estate but over the years when I have looked at apartments to RENT and I am told that people bought the condo units and want to rent them out I am thinking they were more or less over charged or ripped off as far as I can make out.

As soon as I walked in and looked around I decided immediately that I was not interested.

The prices are way over priced while the construction is shoddy and the materials used are cheap and flimsy while the overall design and layout of the rooms and in particular the bathrooms are commonly dumb or just short of dumb and makes me wonder what exactly were the designers and engineers thinking.

The hallways are uncomfortable looking and kind of  creepy feeling while the lighting is bad and the paint choice is bizarre and the elevators are questionable while the stairs and access to the stairs concerning fire and safety make you feel unsafe while the lobbies of the building and reception areas are mickey mouse attempts at looking luxurious ..but they look to difficult to explain.

Then when talking to the service management you just know they are not going to be effective or efficient while I walked out thinking: Geez ..and people actually bought into theses affairs for 5 to 6 to 7 and 10 million baht for a name and supposed great location and the concept of a luxury condo.

Sure if you really shop around you can find something that was actually built with some integrity and style and quality while the engineers and designers actually did their jobs well resulting in good value all around....but most of them are built just to quickly capitalize on the booming real estate market and done on the cheap ..while they milk the market for all they can get.

Just my observations after 28 years here

 

I dont think many people when talking about luxury condos are talking 5-10 million baht. Would be interested in which buildings you are referring to?

[smutcakes]

45 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

 

Your opinion is as right and as wrong as mine. There is a certain amount of uncertainty attached to leasehold. 

 

Some leasehold just get extended a few years at the time, until an alternative project is being finalized. Keep in mind, that they will most likely have to tear the exciting building down to make way for the new lease.

 

We will know in about 8 years time, when Sansiri and another building at Soi Mahadlek Luang 1 come up for renewel. 

 

You are correct and leases can be renewed short term. Personally i would not want to live in constant suspense of having to move. I suppose its not so much of an issue if you are single or a young couple, but when families are involved or more elderly it is something more of an issue.

 

Each to their own.

[zaZa9]

On 8/22/2016 at 7:22 PM, mcfish said:

Bangkok prices have gone through the stratosphere. I think the new one going up across from Nana bts will be easy 250 plus

Glad I bought mine 12 years ago in a well maintained building near Nana bts for 65k no lease limit.

I truly feel sorry for the renters still waiting for the baht to implode and the bubble to burst.. They missed the boat big time in Bangkok at least

OH well there is always Myanmar I guess but I hear the horse has already bolted there as well

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk
 

 

"no lease limit " ??

How does one achieve this ?

[gemguy]

51 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

 

I dont think many people when talking about luxury condos are talking 5-10 million baht. Would be interested in which buildings you are referring to?

That is the point in part...they are advertising them as great condos and luxury condos and quality apartments and great value and all.....but very few are for the full prices they charge.

I can not remember the names of the all the apartments and condos I visited ( 5 years ago ) while looking for a decent place to rent ..but I remember well I visited around 40 apartment buildings and or condos up and down the Sukumvite line over a 3 month period starting at Bearing Station and working my way back to each sky train station and walked around for 2 to 3  hours ..even 4 hours on some days ......going into every obvious condo or apartment building and asking them if they had rooms to rent.

Lets just say I was not impressed while I would not have bought any of them if I was looking to buy.

I surmised a 20 to 40 to 50 million baht luxury condo would also be way over priced and over hyped also...this being Thailand and all while you would really have to scrutinize everything and every detail all the more so if you actually pay 1 million US dollars for a condo unit here in Bangkok.

I prefer to rent anyhow...

Cheers