Burkini ban in parts of France provokes beach-themed protest in London

[Shawn0000]

28 minutes ago, nausea said:

Wearing a Burkini is a polticsl statement whatever you say, it's saying all the rest of you women on this beach wearing bikinis are whores.

 

Whatever gave you that idea?

[nausea]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

How many burkini wearing French Muslim women did you interview in order to reach that conclusion?

 

My 25 year old daughter wears fashionable clothing when out socialising; as is the fashion this can be quite revealing. Her mother does not care to reveal so much skin when she goes out.

 

My daughter wears a bikini on the beach; my wife shorts and a T shirt, even in the water.

 

Using your 'logic' my wife must be making the same 'political statement' about her own daughter!

Don't be stupid.  If you wear a Burkini on a French beach you' re making a statement. The same as when I wear a suit and tie at a business meeting. If I turn up in jeans and a wife-beater shirt, that is also a statement.

[ilostmypassword]

8 minutes ago, nausea said:

Don't be stupid.  If you wear a Burkini on a French beach you' re making a statement. The same as when I wear a suit and tie at a business meeting. If I turn up in jeans and a wife-beater shirt, that is also a statement.

But a beach is not an office.  No one is negotiating or looking to advance projects. There are no rules. People are at a beach to enjoy themselves. Women brought up in a conservative way, be it Moslem, Hindu, or Jew will wear very conservative bathing costumes. That's how they will feel comfortable enough to enjoy themselves.

[nausea]

Basically, you should have some respect for the values of the country you' re living in. To try to impose your own values on that country is a bit much, I reckon.

 

[7by7]

14 minutes ago, nausea said:

31 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

How many burkini wearing French Muslim women did you interview in order to reach that conclusion?

 

My 25 year old daughter wears fashionable clothing when out socialising; as is the fashion this can be quite revealing. Her mother does not care to reveal so much skin when she goes out.

 

My daughter wears a bikini on the beach; my wife shorts and a T shirt, even in the water.

 

Using your 'logic' my wife must be making the same 'political statement' about her own daughter!

Don't be stupid.  If you wear a Burkini on a French beach you' re making a statement. The same as when I wear a suit and tie at a business meeting. If I turn up in jeans and a wife-beater shirt, that is also a statement.

 

The statement, if any, is more likely to be "I feel uncomfortable when strange men stare at my body."

 

Or maybe "I want to protect myself from the dangers of skin cancer;" remember non Muslim women wear these, or similar, as well.

 

Some women, regardless of their religious beliefs or politics, feel one or other or both of these and so cover up; others don't and so don't cover up.

 

I can't give you numbers as I haven't asked enough women to garner meaningful results.

 

How many burkini wearing French Muslim women did you interview in order to reach your conclusion?

[7by7]

5 minutes ago, nausea said:

Basically, you should have some respect for the values of the country you' re living in. To try to impose your own values on that country is a bit much, I reckon.

 

 

Ah yes, the values of France, as expressed in the national motto: Liberté, égalité, fraternité.

 

Doesn't that mean that women can wear what they like and not be dictated to by the state?

 

Or do you mean one of the French values is wearing a bikini on the beach and so every woman on a French beach must be made to wear one?

[Shawn0000]

Just now, nausea said:

Basically, you should have some respect for the values of the country you' re living in. To try to impose your own values on that country is a bit much, I reckon.

 

 

There are 100,000 ethnic French Muslims, can they have their values respected?  Is it only the immigrants and the French born grand children of immigrants that you think should have their values disrespected by the phony excuse that their clothes are an imposition?

[thaihome]

1 hour ago, nausea said:

Wearing a Burkini is a polticsl statement whatever you say, it's saying all the rest of you women on this beach wearing bikinis are whores.

 

It only became a "political statement" after the bans, prior to that it was a personal choice as to what to wear to the beach.

TH  

[7by7]

What do you, nausea and others, think of what these women are wearing on a French beach?

 

(Edit: I posted a picture here; but the forum software wont allow it or any similar ones from other sources. See the link below, though.)

 

Is it acceptable to you, or do you think they are making a political statement saying that all the bikini wearing women on the beach are whores?

 

Do you think that they are showing a lack of respect for French values and trying to impose their own values on France?

 

For more comparisons between a burkini and what orthodox Jewish women wear on the beach, see Seriously, What Orthodox Women Wear to the Beach Is No Different From a Burkini.

 

Of course, not all Jewish women dress like that on the beach; but not all Muslim women wear a burkini.

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by 7by7

[ilostmypassword]

22 minutes ago, nausea said:

Basically, you should have some respect for the values of the country you' re living in. To try to impose your own values on that country is a bit much, I reckon.

 

Liberty, Equality, Fraternity and BEACHWEAR.

[GuestHouse]

15 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

 

But their customs are not allowed priority over what French society deems as historical French customs and identity.

 

 

"French society" includes a rich mix of people, many as we may observe who are the children, grand children or great grand children ..... of immigrants - but who remain indisputably French.

 

Their views form part of what are collectively French societal views. I would imagine it presumptious to assume their idea of French identity is determined by a hystorical French customs and identity they themselves might not share.

 

But as French citizens their views are valid and undeniably views of French citizens.

 

Hence it not a 'strawman argument' that French society is not fixed and unchanging. No more so than to claim French society deems anything on the basis of a historical French history and identity that demonstrably not all French citizens share.

 

Its all the rich tappestry of life - don't fight it - enjoy it.

[GuestHouse]

4 hours ago, nausea said:

Wearing a Burkini is a polticsl statement whatever you say, it's saying all the rest of you women on this beach wearing bikinis are whores.

 

You really could not make such nonsense up.

 

Except you did.

[348GTS]

The point everyone seems to be missing is that France is a secular country and has been for a century or more. For those who don't know what that means, (or would prefer to be indoctrinated by liberal SJW propaganda), please feel free to research the subject, but in a nutshell - in France there can be by law no interference by any religion in the functioning of the government and the government is legally prohibited from recognizing any religion. Not only Islam falls into this category. Nothing connected with religious belief or practice should appear in public life and you are not allowed to let your religious beliefs affect the whole of your everyday, normal life. You cannot show your faith or religious affiliation in public places. It does not only apply to Islam/Muslims but as usual the libtards and pro-Islamists hijack every situation and make it about them as they seem to think the rules and/or laws don't apply to them and that they are entiled to special treatment. People who get sucked into this dangerous agenda think they helping but in reality they are part of the problem.

[Shawn0000]

1 hour ago, 348GTS said:

The point everyone seems to be missing is that France is a secular country and has been for a century or more. For those who don't know what that means, (or would prefer to be indoctrinated by liberal SJW propaganda), please feel free to research the subject, but in a nutshell - in France there can be by law no interference by any religion in the functioning of the government and the government is legally prohibited from recognizing any religion. Not only Islam falls into this category. Nothing connected with religious belief or practice should appear in public life and you are not allowed to let your religious beliefs affect the whole of your everyday, normal life. You cannot show your faith or religious affiliation in public places. It does not only apply to Islam/Muslims but as usual the libtards and pro-Islamists hijack every situation and make it about them as they seem to think the rules and/or laws don't apply to them and that they are entiled to special treatment. People who get sucked into this dangerous agenda think they helping but in reality they are part of the problem.

 

The EU also has ruling, and they allowed the ban of the veil along with masks and full face helmets in public places, but they did not allow the banning of the head scarf, I guess if they banned all hats they would let them!

[7by7]

9 hours ago, 348GTS said:

<snip>

Nothing connected with religious belief or practice should appear in public life and you are not allowed to let your religious beliefs affect the whole of your everyday, normal life. You cannot show your faith or religious affiliation in public places. It does not only apply to Islam/Muslims but as usual the libtards and pro-Islamists hijack every situation and make it about them as they seem to think the rules and/or laws don't apply to them and that they are entiled to special treatment. People who get sucked into this dangerous agenda think they helping but in reality they are part of the problem.

 You are wrong.

 

State schools in France are by law secular institutions, so a law passed in 2004 means it is illegal to wear any conspicuous symbol of religious belief in French state schools.

 

This does not mean such symbols cannot be worn when out in a public place.

 

It is only face coverings, religious or not, which are illegal in a public place.

[348GTS]

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 You are wrong.

 

State schools in France are by law secular institutions, so a law passed in 2004 means it is illegal to wear any conspicuous symbol of religious belief in French state schools.

 

This does not mean such symbols cannot be worn when out in a public place.

 

It is only face coverings, religious or not, which are illegal in a public place.

 

No I am not. How am I wrong? You mentioned one example of secularism in France but it has been in their constitution since 100+ years ago. This is just an example of Muslims thinking the laws don't apply to them thereby forcing the government's hand in this instance. Another example was in 2009 when they discussed legislation outlawing the burqa. As I said in my previous post, it is not my job to educate people on this, the information is out there for all people to inform themselves - Google is your friend. In France they refer to it as Laïcité. Feel free to look it up.

To paraphrase from the Wikipedia page on the subject - Laïcité relies on the division between private life, (where adherents believe religion belongs), and the public sphere, in which each individual  should appear as a simple citizen equal to all other citizens, devoid of ethnic, religious or other particularities. According to this concept, the government must refrain from taking positions on religious doctrine and only consider religious subjects for their practical consequences on inhabitants' lives.

A further point, to "immigrate" to a secular country whose constitution incorporates Laïcité and then impose your own misguided backwards culture, fly in the face of the law, and ultimately demand special treatment in order to wear items of clothing which have their basis in the subjugation of women is utterly nonsensical.

[tomacht8]

Since there are so many beautiful women here from Afghanistan, Iran or wherever.
Please come with bikini dress to the beach.
Kisses naa.

[simple1]

5 hours ago, 348GTS said:

 

No I am not. How am I wrong? You mentioned one example of secularism in France but it has been in their constitution since 100+ years ago. This is just an example of Muslims thinking the laws don't apply to them thereby forcing the government's hand in this instance. Another example was in 2009 when they discussed legislation outlawing the burqa. As I said in my previous post, it is not my job to educate people on this, the information is out there for all people to inform themselves - Google is your friend. In France they refer to it as Laïcité. Feel free to look it up.

To paraphrase from the Wikipedia page on the subject - Laïcité relies on the division between private life, (where adherents believe religion belongs), and the public sphere, in which each individual  should appear as a simple citizen equal to all other citizens, devoid of ethnic, religious or other particularities. According to this concept, the government must refrain from taking positions on religious doctrine and only consider religious subjects for their practical consequences on inhabitants' lives.

A further point, to "immigrate" to a secular country whose constitution incorporates Laïcité and then impose your own misguided backwards culture, fly in the face of the law, and ultimately demand special treatment in order to wear items of clothing which have their basis in the subjugation of women is utterly nonsensical.

 

From my reading there is currently not legislation that bans the wearing of hijabs or  equivalent in a public place in France. Should you disagree please provide the URL link to relevant legislation to prove your argument.

[Shawn0000]

9 hours ago, 348GTS said:

 

No I am not. How am I wrong? You mentioned one example of secularism in France but it has been in their constitution since 100+ years ago. This is just an example of Muslims thinking the laws don't apply to them thereby forcing the government's hand in this instance. Another example was in 2009 when they discussed legislation outlawing the burqa. As I said in my previous post, it is not my job to educate people on this, the information is out there for all people to inform themselves - Google is your friend. In France they refer to it as Laïcité. Feel free to look it up.

To paraphrase from the Wikipedia page on the subject - Laïcité relies on the division between private life, (where adherents believe religion belongs), and the public sphere, in which each individual  should appear as a simple citizen equal to all other citizens, devoid of ethnic, religious or other particularities. According to this concept, the government must refrain from taking positions on religious doctrine and only consider religious subjects for their practical consequences on inhabitants' lives.

A further point, to "immigrate" to a secular country whose constitution incorporates Laïcité and then impose your own misguided backwards culture, fly in the face of the law, and ultimately demand special treatment in order to wear items of clothing which have their basis in the subjugation of women is utterly nonsensical.

 

A head scarf does not apply to this, and that is what they were wearing, this is not about the burqa or veil, this is about why these women were refused service and whether or not they were breaking any laws, and they were not.  By the way, the same "misguided backwards culture", the very same lines from the very same book, is the reason both Muslim women and French Catholic nuns cover their hair, neither are about to have that right taken away from them.

[7by7]

348GTS, it is you who should do some research!

 

In France civil servants and teachers cannot wear religious clothing or symbols whist at work; neither can state school pupils whilst they are attending school.

 

Wearing anything which covers the face in public is illegal in France. Wearing religious clothing or symbols which does not cover the face is not.

 

Apart from this absurd burkini ban, that is. Which does not seem to apply to women of other faiths who wish to dress modestly on the beach.

 

Seriously, What Orthodox Women Wear to the Beach Is No Different From a Burkini

 

There is also a law in France which says that in photographs for identity purposes, on driving licences, passports etc., the person must be bareheaded; something which French Sikhs have protested vociferously about.

 

This factsheet from the ECtHR may be of interest: Religious symbols and clothing.

 

 

 

 

[348GTS]

I don't need to do any rersearch, nor am I engaging in any "arguments" with anyone. I am merely pointing out the fact that France is a secular country in it's constitution and the society/culture is rooted in Laïcité. Therefore I find it bizarre that people are knowingly immigrating there and then demanding special treatment or "rights" that are based on their religion, a religion that subjugates it's women and brainwashes them into believing that they are dressing conservatively by "their own choice". Because it is not free choice and by libtards buying into the whole "human rights and freedom" angle, you are adding to the problem not solving it. The point some of you are clearly missing is that there would not need to be any laws or legislation if everyone followed the spirit of the constitution and didn't go around believing that their religious laws come before the laws of the country they are living in or demand special treatment as a result of that religion that the government is legally not permitted to recognize. Of course it is one particular religion that seems to always be the problem in this regard. And it isn't Christians, Bhuddists, Hindus or Jews. Funny how these so-called "laws" only came into being a relatively short time ago, yet Secularism/Laïcité has been in effect for over a century. It seems most French people already know and understand things but a growing minority who seem intent on forcing their culture onto everyone are the ones who don't get it. They should be called out not pandered to. This will be my last word on the subject.

[Shawn0000]

9 minutes ago, 348GTS said:

I don't need to do any rersearch, nor am I engaging in any "arguments" with anyone. I am merely pointing out the fact that France is a secular country in it's constitution and the society/culture is rooted in Laïcité. Therefore I find it bizarre that people are knowingly immigrating there and then demanding special treatment or "rights" that are based on their religion, a religion that subjugates it's women and brainwashes them into believing that they are dressing conservatively by "their own choice". Because it is not free choice and by libtards buying into the whole "human rights and freedom" angle, you are adding to the problem not solving it. The point some of you are clearly missing is that there would not need to be any laws or legislation if everyone followed the spirit of the constitution and didn't go around believing that their religious laws come before the laws of the country they are living in or demand special treatment as a result of that religion that the government is legally not permitted to recognize. Of course it is one particular religion that seems to always be the problem in this regard. And it isn't Christians, Bhuddists, Hindus or Jews. Funny how these so-called "laws" only came into being a relatively short time ago, yet Secularism/Laïcité has been in effect for over a century. It seems most French people already know and understand things but a growing minority who seem intent on forcing their culture onto everyone are the ones who don't get it. They should be called out not pandered to. This will be my last word on the subject.

 

But this is all completely off topic, these women were just wearing scarves, something women wore long before Islam, something my Gran wore and was never a Muslim, you are completely off your rocker, you can't ban scarves just because some people are so thick that they think only Muslims wear them and if they did in their minds that would make wearing them anti-secularist.  Secularism is not about denying people rights, it is about providing a society free from religious bias, wearing a scarf does not give Muslims any political bias, you are also free to cover your hair if you so wish.

[7by7]

348GTS,

 

Some examples, please, of Muslims demanding special treatment or rights in France. As far as I can see they merely wish to enjoy the same treatment and rights enjoyed by other religions; including the right to dress as they wish on the beach.

 

Does Islam subjugate women and brainwash them into believing they are dressing conservatively through their own choice or do some, but by no means all, Muslim women make a free choice to dress in that way. Many Muslim women, not just in Europe, wear western style dress. Yes, there are laws in some Muslim countries, and some non Muslim countries too, which dictate what women can and cannot wear in public; but do we in Europe really have to follow suit by introducing repressive laws ourselves?

 

As others have already said; it is very odd that some people are, like you, are claiming to be defending these women's rights when you want to deny them the right to choose what to wear on the beach!

 

Of course, you could argue that all religions brainwash their followers in one way or another. I was raised a Catholic and taught that sex outside of marriage was a sin, that even a married couple should only ever have sex in order to conceive therefore  using any form of contraception was a sin, that children were born into sin and went eternally to limbo if they died before being baptised, that women must cover their heads in church, that I couldn't eat meat on a Friday etc., etc.

 

Of course, I was also taught that all my sins would be forgiven and so I'd escape eternal damnation by means of a deathbed confession; so maybe I'll do that; just in case!

 

Laïcité is not what you appear to think it is. From Wikipedia

Quote

French secularity (French: laïcité, [la.isite]), is the absence of religious involvement in government affairs, especially the prohibition of religious influence in the determination of state policies; it is also the absence of government involvement in religious affairs*, especially the prohibition of government influence in the determination of religion.^[1][2] Dictionaries ordinarily translate laïcité as secularity or secularism (the latter being the political system),^[3] although it is sometimes rendered in English as laicity or laicism by its opponents.^{[citation needed]} While the term was first used with this meaning in 1871 in the dispute over the removal of religious teachers and instruction from elementary schools, the word laïcité dates to 1842.^[4]

In its strict and official acceptance, it is the principle of separation of church (or religion) and state.^[5] Etymologically, laïcité is a noun formed by adding the suffix -ité (English -ity, Latin -itās) to the Latin adjective lāicus, loanword from the Greek λᾱϊκός (lāïkós "of the people", "layman"), the adjective from λᾱός (lāós "people").^[6]

French secularism has a long history but the current regime is based on the 1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State.^[7]

(*7by7 emphasis)

Hmm, "the absence of government involvement in religious affairs."

 

Doesn't that mean, among other things, that the government can't tell people that they can't wear clothing or symbols associated with their religion, whether it be a burkini, a yarmulke, a turban, a cross etc., etc., except in state institutions such as state schools or if they are government employees?

 

The ban on face veils is obviously different as that is a security measure which applies to all face coverings, not just religious ones.

 

The burkini bans in some French resorts is not a national law, they are civic ordnances. One such has provisionally been ruled unlawful pending a final decision.

 

 

 

 

 

[Shawn0000]

7 hours ago, 7by7 said:

348GTS,

 

Some examples, please, of Muslims demanding special treatment or rights in France. As far as I can see they merely wish to enjoy the same treatment and rights enjoyed by other religions; including the right to dress as they wish on the beach.

 

Does Islam subjugate women and brainwash them into believing they are dressing conservatively through their own choice or do some, but by no means all, Muslim women make a free choice to dress in that way. Many Muslim women, not just in Europe, wear western style dress. Yes, there are laws in some Muslim countries, and some non Muslim countries too, which dictate what women can and cannot wear in public; but do we in Europe really have to follow suit by introducing repressive laws ourselves?

 

As others have already said; it is very odd that some people are, like you, are claiming to be defending these women's rights when you want to deny them the right to choose what to wear on the beach!

 

Of course, you could argue that all religions brainwash their followers in one way or another. I was raised a Catholic and taught that sex outside of marriage was a sin, that even a married couple should only ever have sex in order to conceive therefore  using any form of contraception was a sin, that children were born into sin and went eternally to limbo if they died before being baptised, that women must cover their heads in church, that I couldn't eat meat on a Friday etc., etc.

 

Of course, I was also taught that all my sins would be forgiven and so I'd escape eternal damnation by means of a deathbed confession; so maybe I'll do that; just in case!

 

Laïcité is not what you appear to think it is. From Wikipedia

Hmm, "the absence of government involvement in religious affairs."

 

Doesn't that mean, among other things, that the government can't tell people that they can't wear clothing or symbols associated with their religion, whether it be a burkini, a yarmulke, a turban, a cross etc., etc., except in state institutions such as state schools or if they are government employees?

 

The ban on face veils is obviously different as that is a security measure which applies to all face coverings, not just religious ones.

 

The burkini bans in some French resorts is not a national law, they are civic ordnances. One such has provisionally been ruled unlawful pending a final decision.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is exactly what it means, and that is why the law banning the veil is not a ban on religious facial coverings but on all face covering in public places and specifically names things such as full face motorbike helmets, if they hadn't made a universal ban on covering the face it would of undermined the very principles of their secular society.

[katana]

On a related note:
Women Banned from Wearing Burqa When Entering ISIS’ Security Centres
Although the ISIS terrorist group had earlier made it obligatory for women to wear burqa [full face veiling], it has now banned its use for the women who are getting into security centres in the ISIS-held Iraqi city of Mosul.
Continued http://ifpnews.com/news/world/middle-east/2016/09/women-banned-wearing-burqa-entering-isis-security-centres/