Burkini ban suspended by top French court

[Steely Dan]

5 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

 

If immigrants didn't change the culture of the countries they move to, the British would still be living in mud huts, dressing in animal skins, painting themselves blue. 

 

But we need not go that far back - the most popular food amongst British people on a night out is..... Curry. 

 

Culture changes - get used to the constant change. 

Read 'Blood of the Isles' to demonstrate the breakneck speed with which immigration has occurred recently..Gradual changes are far more easily accepted, especially from neighboring nations which at least share some common values.

[Steely Dan]

Here's what Douglas Murray has to say. The whole issue is really not that important. Hastily or badly framed laws are however a symptom of governments responding to a large upswell of public anger. This anger is of course due to the result of policies the government themselves enforced.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/26/from-cannes-to-bavaria-politicians-fiddle-with-burkini-bans-whil/

 

When a problem has no solutions, the only thing left to do is to change the topic. And so, in the wake of daily attacks, our continent is spending the summer talking beach-wear. Some people may think this is better than nothing. But it isn’t. It is fiddling while Europe boils.

 

Yes change the topic, hence reams of bloviating waffle from the usual suspects here.

[Scott]

An off-topic, inflammatory post has been removed.   Please be civil to one another.

 

 

[ClutchClark]

6 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

 

I asked you if you know what you are talking about, I even asked you if you really know what you are talking about. 

 

I then gave you a heavy clue when I asked you "Do you know on what basis the Conseiller d'État makes its rulings"

 

You've now come back and confirmed that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 

 

Here's the answer:

 

The  Conseiller d'État is an administrative court, it only examines if the actions of the state or the actions of a state official are compliant with the law. The Conseiller d'État does not make the law, it adjudicates on the application of the law. 

 

The case examined by the Conseiller d'État was not should Burqinis be banned, but was the Mayor of Nice acting legally when he banned Burqinis. 

 

The council of state is not empowered to make a new law banning Burqinis and will not rule Burqinis should be banned - Making laws is not what the Conseiller d'État is established to do.

 

Go educate yourself before posting more nonsense on stuff you have absolutely no idea about. 

 

Its a positive contribution you make to the topic here but its unfortunate you wait so long to make it while you continually bait your perceived adversary. 

 

Why not just post something like this right off and make your contributions to TVF positive rather thsn insultive?

 

Again, a well written and informative post...however ill timed.

[SgtRock]

25 minutes ago, Steely Dan said:

Here's what Douglas Murray has to say. The whole issue is really not that important. Hastily or badly framed laws are however a symptom of governments responding to a large upswell of public anger. This anger is of course due to the result of policies the government themselves enforced.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/26/from-cannes-to-bavaria-politicians-fiddle-with-burkini-bans-whil/

 

 

 

 

Yes change the topic, hence reams of bloviating waffle from the usual suspects here.

 

I said in a previous post that believed France had gone about this the wrong way.

 

The ban should have came from the Government and been Law Nationwide. Not left to Mayors as this was only ever going to cause more problems than it solved.

 

Clear case of passing the buck by Government.

 

As reported by the BBC, it seems that a lot of people want it banned.

 

Quote

According to an Ifop survey, 64% of French people are in favour of the bans while another 30% are indifferent.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37183083

 

Elections next year. Someone better start listening to the public pronto.

[Credo]

I really think this whole situation amounts to little more than the fact that many people would like to see the entire religion banned, not just the dress.

[Steely Dan]

9 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

 

What are you on about?

 

The country which is the subject of this thread is France.

 

The other country you mentioned is Saudi Arabia.

 

 

Do Muslims demand or request these Muslim only sessions; or were they simply offered as a service to the local Muslim community, who pay local taxes the same as the rest of us? I suspect the latter.

 

Muslims are not the only religious group to desire and be given exclusive use of public pools: a public pool in Brooklyn has had a Jewish women only session since the 1990s;

Brooklyn Pool Can Keep Women-Only Swim Times

 

London, too: Muslim swimmers

 

Many other groups are offered exclusive use of swimming pools at certain times.  

 

Women-Only Swimming sessions common in many public pools in the UK.

 

Many pools also offer disabled only sessions (example).

 

Plus, of course, in many public pools swimming clubs, sub aqua clubs etc. hire the pool for their exclusive use.

 

So do you object to all of these; or just those aimed at Muslims?

 

 

Actually there is a very good argument to have migrants only swimming sessions. That would avoid a string of indecent assaults, vandalism, defecating in the pool and acting like animals. The Germans have even taken to posting signs in their swimming pools instructing people how not to act like savages.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/685999/germany-migrant-sex-attacks-swimming-pool-cologne-leaked-police-report

Edited August 28, 2016 by Steely Dan
Photo

[Caps]

3 hours ago, Patsycat said:

Skin cancer may attack my body at any time, it seems to be running rather rife in my family.

 

If i was to go to the beach, i would wear a burkini to cover my skin.  Perhaps not with the head covering.  But, if advised by doctors, that is my only choice to enjoy a day at the beach.

 

I'd wear one.  

 

People should be able to wear what they want, wether on the beach or walking down the street.

 

Myself, i think Speedos should be banned all over the World.  Also string bikinis on anyone over 35.

 

Look at the Thais, they go swimming in jeans and t shirts - What's the difference.

There is not a lot of difference but may be people are just getting fed up of the whole muslim thing

May be folk don't like the fact that when they live in a country they try to take over areas so its only them living there, or they try to introduce sharia law, or the spreading of hate in the countries that house them and give them money, or converting Churches into mosques, or they want muslim only schools (fantastic for integration...not), or the fact that they don't really like to integrate, or that they like to drag the countries down to the same gutter level as the ME crap holes they or their ancestors came from, or may be its the way they look at Western Women as pieces of meat because they don't walk about in a penguin suit all day or walk 10 feet behind or in front of the husband.  Or it could even be that they try to ruin the way of live where the Kafir live.

Or may be even the way they are doing terrorist atrocities all across Europe.

All these things that they try and do in Western countries,,,I would like to see it happen the other way round and Westerners try to do the same in ME holes, but not a chance in hell it would happen.  But don't worry its fine for them to come and inflict their rules on use

 

Oh and I forgot to add, lets not speak up against it or voice our opinion because if you do then you are a racist, bigot, xenophobe and whatever other drivel people want to use. Very easy words to use when things don't go your way or you don't agree with things.  This is probably why Europe is the way it is?  

Lets face it...if they don't like the way Europe operates its laws and systems they can always Move!  Fat chance of that happening though, too much welfare and voicing of options to be had

 

[CWMcMurray]

There is not a lot of difference but may be people are just getting fed up of the whole muslim thing

May be folk don't like the fact that when they live in a country they try to take over areas so its only them living there, or they try to introduce sharia law, or the spreading of hate in the countries that house them and give them money, or converting Churches into mosques, or they want muslim only schools (fantastic for integration...not), or the fact that they don't really like to integrate, or that they like to drag the countries down to the same gutter level as the ME crap holes they or their ancestors came from, or may be its the way they look at Western Women as pieces of meat because they don't walk about in a penguin suit all day or walk 10 feet behind or in front of the husband.  Or it could even be that they try to ruin the way of live where the Kafir live.

Or may be even the way they are doing terrorist atrocities all across Europe.

All these things that they try and do in Western countries,,,I would like to see it happen the other way round and Westerners try to do the same in ME holes, but not a chance in hell it would happen.  But don't worry its fine for them to come and inflict their rules on use

 

Oh and I forgot to add, lets not speak up against it or voice our opinion because if you do then you are a racist, bigot, xenophobe and whatever other drivel people want to use. Very easy words to use when things don't go your way or you don't agree with things.  This is probably why Europe is the way it is?  

Lets face it...if they don't like the way Europe operates its laws and systems they can always Move!  Fat chance of that happening though, too much welfare and voicing of options to be had

 

I agree that some of those issues you have raised in the above post are the REAL challenges...

So rather than banning Burkinis, why not find ways to address the real issues

Let's address the substance and find real solutions... Banning burkini doesn't do that and is just ridiculous


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[SgtRock]

4 hours ago, Patsycat said:

Look at the Thais, they go swimming in jeans and t shirts - What's the difference.

 

The Thais that I go to the beach with, certainly the females, not so much the males, cover up on the beach to stop them going black.

 

Their words, not mine.

 

That is the difference.

[Caps]

Speaking as one who is fed up of the whole Muslim thing.  I don't think it will ever happen,  one because the muslims won't allow it due to religion, faith, culture (or however else you want to say it) and two the tolerance level in Europe may be slipping.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Caps

[NongKhaiKid]

I have just watched Dateline London on BBC and needless to say this controversy was discussed.

One of todays panel was Abdel Bari Atwan,   a regular guest,   who is editor in chief of an on line Arab news and opinion website and he's a long time resident of London.   Naturally the views were many and diverse but it was hard to believe when he said that if a western couple went to some middle eastern countries,    I didn't catch the names he mentioned,    and the woman wanted to wear a bikini on the beach she wouldn't be hassled by the police as was the situation in France with the burquini.

 

I think that's quite a claim to make and I would think in some countries the woman would be hassled by more than just the police.

I'm not saying no one would do it and in some countries it might be ok but I think most travellers are aware of attitudes in the middle east and wouldn't take chances unless absolutely sure it would be acceptable.

 

[GuestHouse]

2 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Its a positive contribution you make to the topic here but its unfortunate you wait so long to make it while you continually bait your perceived adversary. 

 

Why not just post something like this right off and make your contributions to TVF positive rather thsn insultive?

 

Again, a well written and informative post...however ill timed.

 

When we have bigots drip feeding hatred and bigotry, challenging with them straight out a structured argument on the form and function of French constitutional law is pointless until the depth of their ignorance on the matter is first exposed. 

Even then assuming they don't simply deny the black and white comments they make when called to task. 

 

 

Nevertheless I'm pleased you yourself appreciate fact based and well argued points of view. 

 

I trust you'll now join the French law in upholding the rights of women to wear a burqini if they wish and more than that join the challenge against the bigotry being openly displayed on this forum. 

 

[ClutchClark]

23 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

When we have bigots drip feeding hatred and bigotry, challenging with them straight out a structured argument on the form and function of French constitutional law is pointless until the depth of their ignorance on the matter is first exposed. 

Even then assuming they don't simply deny the black and white comments they make when called to task. 

 

 

Nevertheless I'm pleased you yourself appreciate fact based and well argued points of view. 

 

I trust you'll now join the French law in upholding the rights of women to wear a burqini if they wish and more than that join the challenge against the bigotry being openly displayed on this forum. 

 

 

I am pretty sure it was near the beginning of this thread when I expressed my opinion on the "Ban". The french are reeling from terrorist attacks and I sympathize with them. I can understand why a Mayor would create such a Ban in the immediate aftermath of the bloodbath which had just occured in his city by a crazed Muslim in a stolen lorry. (It was this city or nearby?).

 

I also recognized that this "Ban" would be struck down for legal reasons regardless its apparent popularity amonst the French. 

 

French has a Democracy that is living & breathing and we witnessed that with this "Ban" being created and then declared unconstitutional. Nobody dies. No war was declared. 

 

But just like my opinions on Thai things, I recognize I am not a French citizen and I do not condemn how they want to respond to crisis. I am American. My right to cast judgement ends at my shores. 

 

Again, no one died in the 4-5 days that the Burkini Ban was in effect and it helped to shed light the fact France is greiving and has some serious immigration issues ahead. It also has created a dialogu amongst the French on how they intend to proceed dealing with these large issues. 

 

I consider the Ban and the lifting of the Ban to be a Win-Win. 

[Anthony5]

45 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

When we have bigots drip feeding hatred and bigotry, challenging with them straight out a structured argument on the form and function of French constitutional law is pointless until the depth of their ignorance on the matter is first exposed. 

Even then assuming they don't simply deny the black and white comments they make when called to task. 

 

 

Nevertheless I'm pleased you yourself appreciate fact based and well argued points of view. 

 

I trust you'll now join the French law in upholding the rights of women to wear a burqini if they wish and more than that join the challenge against the bigotry being openly displayed on this forum. 

 

 

There are bigots and there are Muslim huggers on this forum.

 

Please point out to all of us where in the French law is written that women have the right to wear a burkini. Right it is written nowhere, because there is no law about it.

 

And if you think that I not understood what is written in the OP in 2 words, and which you felt the need to write down in 6 lines, then I know who is the ignorant.

 

The council TEMPORARILY suspended the ban, because there is no law regarding it at this point, which doesn't mean that there will not be a LAW banning burkinis in the near future.

 

And going from the comments from Sarkozy, PM Manual Valls and the results of polls held among the French population, it is very likely that there WILL be a LAW banning the burkini.

 

And to answer your insinuation that I hate Muslims, below is my answer.

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Anthony5

[Opl]

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 5:06 AM, Stargrazer9889 said:

 

 

( Sorry I can't get rid of the non intentioned quote..)

 

Great thought, ClutchClark,  sometimes people need to check if their cultural values are considered optional.

[ClutchClark]

2 hours ago, Caps said:

There is not a lot of difference but may be people are just getting fed up of the whole muslim thing

May be folk don't like the fact that when they live in a country they try to take over areas so its only them living there, or they try to introduce sharia law, or the spreading of hate in the countries that house them and give them money, or converting Churches into mosques, or they want muslim only schools (fantastic for integration...not), or the fact that they don't really like to integrate, or that they like to drag the countries down to the same gutter level as the ME crap holes they or their ancestors came from, or may be its the way they look at Western Women as pieces of meat because they don't walk about in a penguin suit all day or walk 10 feet behind or in front of the husband.  Or it could even be that they try to ruin the way of live where the Kafir live.

Or may be even the way they are doing terrorist atrocities all across Europe.

All these things that they try and do in Western countries,,,I would like to see it happen the other way round and Westerners try to do the same in ME holes, but not a chance in hell it would happen.  But don't worry its fine for them to come and inflict their rules on use

 

Oh and I forgot to add, lets not speak up against it or voice our opinion because if you do then you are a racist, bigot, xenophobe and whatever other drivel people want to use. Very easy words to use when things don't go your way or you don't agree with things.  This is probably why Europe is the way it is?  

Lets face it...if they don't like the way Europe operates its laws and systems they can always Move!  Fat chance of that happening though, too much welfare and voicing of options to be had

 

 

You nailed it with this piece.

 

Bullseye.

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, Caps said:

There is not a lot of difference but may be people are just getting fed up of the whole muslim thing

May be folk don't like the fact that when they live in a country they try to take over areas so its only them living there, or they try to introduce sharia law, or the spreading of hate in the countries that house them and give them money, or converting Churches into mosques, or they want muslim only schools (fantastic for integration...not), or the fact that they don't really like to integrate, or that they like to drag the countries down to the same gutter level as the ME crap holes they or their ancestors came from, or may be its the way they look at Western Women as pieces of meat because they don't walk about in a penguin suit all day or walk 10 feet behind or in front of the husband.  Or it could even be that they try to ruin the way of live where the Kafir live.

Or may be even the way they are doing terrorist atrocities all across Europe.

All these things that they try and do in Western countries,,,I would like to see it happen the other way round and Westerners try to do the same in ME holes, but not a chance in hell it would happen.  But don't worry its fine for them to come and inflict their rules on use

 

Oh and I forgot to add, lets not speak up against it or voice our opinion because if you do then you are a racist, bigot, xenophobe and whatever other drivel people want to use. Very easy words to use when things don't go your way or you don't agree with things.  This is probably why Europe is the way it is?  

Lets face it...if they don't like the way Europe operates its laws and systems they can always Move!  Fat chance of that happening though, too much welfare and voicing of options to be had

 

Or maybe they just don't like bigots who lump all muslims together.  If you had bothered to look at various surveys of Muslims, you would find that the overwhelming majority don't conform to the stereotypes you subscribe to.

[ilostmypassword]

37 minutes ago, Anthony5 said:

 

There are bigots and there are Muslim huggers on this forum.

 

Please point out to all of us where in the French law is written that women have the right to wear a burkini. Right it is written nowhere, because there is no law about it.

 

And if you think that I not understood what is written in the OP in 2 words, and which you felt the need to write down in 6 lines, then I know who is the ignorant.

 

The council TEMPORARILY suspended the ban, because there is no law regarding it at this point, which doesn't mean that there will not be a LAW banning burkinis in the near future.

 

And going from the comments from Sarkozy, PM Manual Valls and the results of polls held among the French population, it is very likely that there WILL be a LAW banning the burkini.

 

And to answer your insinuation that I hate Muslims, below is my answer.

 

 

 

Please point out to me where it is written in French law that women have the right to wear pants? Or pink dresses?  Or high-heeled shoes. Or flat shoes? 

[ilostmypassword]

22 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

You nailed it with this piece.

 

Bullseye.

The hammer being bigotry.

[Anthony5]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

Please point out to me where it is written in French law that women have the right to wear pants? Or pink dresses?  Or high-heeled shoes. Or flat shoes? 

 

You seem to get really desperate to make your point, something I noticed already earlier from your other ridiculous comments in this thread.

 

Which one of the items you mention are intended in hiding someones personal identity and/or are enforcing someones religious identity?

[Caps]

17 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Or maybe they just don't like bigots who lump all muslims together.  If you had bothered to look at various surveys of Muslims, you would find that the overwhelming majority don't conform to the stereotypes you subscribe to.

 

13 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

The hammer being bigotry.

 

As I said...its easy to shout Bigot, racist etc.  When you don't agree

 

Would that make not you a Bigot as you seem intolerant to others holding different opinions to yours?

Edited August 28, 2016 by Caps

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, Anthony5 said:

 

You seem to get really desperate to make your point, something I noticed already earlier from your other ridiculous comments in this thread.

 

Which one of the items you mention are intended in hiding someones personal identity and/or are enforcing someones religious identity?

A burkinin doesn't cover the face so it does not conceal identity. There are already laws in place in France that prohibit covering the face in public.

[Anthony5]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

A burkinin doesn't cover the face so it does not conceal identity. There are already laws in place in France that prohibit covering the face in public.

 

And it also doesn't enforce someones religious identity upon others?

 

See you're desperate, as you resort to selective reading and responding.

 

Welcome to my ignore list.

[ilostmypassword]

What does "enforcing someone's religious identity upon others" mean?  Does wearing a crucifix force someone's religious identity on others?  Does wearing a yarmulke enforce someone's religious identity on others?  

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

What does "enforcing someone's religious identity upon others" mean?  Does wearing a crucifix force someone's religious identity on others?  Does wearing a yarmulke enforce someone's religious identity on others?  

Obviously wearing a string bikini does

[GuestHouse]

4 hours ago, Anthony5 said:

 

There are bigots and there are Muslim huggers on this forum.

 

Please point out to all of us where in the French law is written that women have the right to wear a burkini. Right it is written nowhere, because there is no law about it.

 

And if you think that I not understood what is written in the OP in 2 words, and which you felt the need to write down in 6 lines, then I know who is the ignorant.

 

The council TEMPORARILY suspended the ban, because there is no law regarding it at this point, which doesn't mean that there will not be a LAW banning burkinis in the near future.

 

And going from the comments from Sarkozy, PM Manual Valls and the results of polls held among the French population, it is very likely that there WILL be a LAW banning the burkini.

 

And to answer your insinuation that I hate Muslims, below is my answer.

 

 

Your tenacity in demonstrating you have no idea what you are talking about is impressive.

 

French law, like most law systems, allows rights and freedoms to any actions that are no prohibitted or controlled by law.

 

There need be no law to award a right to wear a garment, only the absence of a law prohibiting the wearing of a garment.

 

The clue is in the expression 'it's against the law'.

 

Nothing can be against a law that does not exist.

 

[Anthony5]

35 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

Your tenacity in demonstrating you have no idea what you are talking about is impressive.

 

French law, like most law systems, allows rights and freedoms to any actions that are no prohibitted or controlled by law.

 

There need be no law to award a right to wear a garment, only the absence of a law prohibiting the wearing of a garment.

 

The clue is in the expression 'it's against the law'.

 

Nothing can be against a law that does not exist.

 

 

Because there is no law forbidding the wear of a burkini doesn't mean there wont be one in the near future, and going from the comments of the prime minister, and those of Sarkozy it looks as if that law will be in place soon.

 

Didn't I say in the post you were quoting " Right it is written nowhere, because there is no law about it. "? So what is it that I have no idea about?

 

The council TEMPORARILY suspended the ban, because there is no law regarding it at this point, which doesn't mean that there will not be a LAW banning burkinis in the near future.

 

So just using your superiority complex by repeatedly saying I don't know what I'm talking about, and at the same time just ignoring the likely future, doesn't really make you look smart.

 

But never mind, keep burying your head in the sand, it displays your real intelligence and bigotry level.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Anthony5

[ilostmypassword]

17 minutes ago, Anthony5 said:

 

Because there is no law forbidding the wear of a burkini doesn't mean there wont be one in the near future, and going from the comments of the prime minister, and those of Sarkozy it looks as if that law will be in place soon.

 

Didn't I say in the post you were quoting " Right it is written nowhere, because there is no law about it. "? So what is it that I have no idea about?

 

The council TEMPORARILY suspended the ban, because there is no law regarding it at this point, which doesn't mean that there will not be a LAW banning burkinis in the near future.

 

So just using your superiority complex by repeatedly saying I don't know what I'm talking about, and at the same time just ignoring the likely future, doesn't really make you look smart.

 

But never mind, keep burying your head in the sand, it displays your real intelligence and bigotry level.

 

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.  Here is what the article said:

"The court said the ban 'seriously, and clearly illegally, breached the fundamental freedoms to come and go, the freedom of beliefs and individual freedom.'"

Nothing there at all about a temporary suspension because there is no law. Absolutely nothing.

[7by7]

8 hours ago, Steely Dan said:

Actually there is a very good argument to have migrants only swimming sessions. That would avoid a string of indecent assaults, vandalism, defecating in the pool and acting like animals. The Germans have even taken to posting signs in their swimming pools instructing people how not to act like savages.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/685999/germany-migrant-sex-attacks-swimming-pool-cologne-leaked-police-report

 

When I was a young boy the largest immigrant population in my home town was Italian; so much so that there were signs in many shops in Italian and the local Catholic church had an Italian Mass every Sunday. There were some, but not many, Muslims.

 

Signs similar to the above were displayed at the local indoor swimming pool then as they are now.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there's lots of 'allegedly' and 'reportedly' in your link. One has to wonder how many reported cases are like the one at the end of that article.

Quote

Last week in Austria, a 13-year-old girl said she was attacked by an immigrant man at a public baths. 

But she kept changing her story and in the end admitted she made it up

 

But this has little to do with the French burkini ban as most of the women affected were probably French citizens and would not behave in such a way; neither would French Muslim men.