Brexit may send EU 'down the drain' - German vice chancellor

[webfact]

Brexit may send EU 'down the drain' - German vice chancellor

 

BERLIN: -- Germany's vice-chancellor has warned the future of the EU could be in doubt if the UK's exit is handled badly.

 

Sigmar Gabriel said the EU would go "down the drain" if other states followed Britain's lead and that the UK could not keep the "nice things" about Europe while taking no responsibility.

 

It comes as Theresa May summoned ministers for a meeting on Wednesday to discuss ideas for the UK's withdrawal.

 

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37210138

 

-- © Copyright BBC 2016-08-29

[daveAustin]

Good. It doesn't work and only serves those with their snout in proverbial trough. And what nice things anyway? 

[taichiplanet]

like most ideologies it is great as an idea but almost impossible to implement. I am 99.9% certain the earth will continue to rotate and business in Europe will peacefully flourish without the EU, maybe better without all the redtape.

 

Anyway, they are already thinking up another cash cow.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-29/germany-poland-and-france-revive-weimar-to-bolster-eu-confidence/7793386

Edited August 29, 2016 by taichiplanet

[jaidam]

The German vice chancellor is choking on his sour grapes. Remember they warned the UK would have financial crisis if it chose to Brexit? Well, since we decided to Brexit the British economy is going great guns, strong growth on all fronts - increased consumer demand, job creation, less borrowing, higher FTSE. It's all good. Meanwhile the German economy has weakened since Brexit - with no hope for any recovery.

 

 Brexit is the gift that never stops giving. Every moan and whine only increases the pleasurable bask in the sun that is post Brexit Britain. Hooray.

[craigt3365]

I hope the EU stays together.  Dealing with multiple currencies and visas was a pain for travelers!!!!

[i claudius]

26 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

I hope the EU stays together.  Dealing with multiple currencies and visas was a pain for travelers!!!!

 

I never found it that way ,even when i traveled as a young man before the euro etc . no problem .

[MissAndry]

Me neither. What VISA's?

Been tripping to France and Spain since the early 1960's, no VISAs required.

(and Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Belgium)

Edited August 29, 2016 by MissAndry

[Pdaz]

Great news. The sooner the better.

[craigt3365]

5 minutes ago, i claudius said:

 

I never found it that way ,even when i traveled as a young man before the euro etc . no problem .

It's been years for me, but I seem to remember some visa issues with a few countries.  Fuzzy memory...but I do remember this!  And hated it. LOL

 

 

[tifino]

 

i think it's more about the sour grapes that the UK would no longer be guilted into accepting more of the 'Immigrants'

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

I hope the EU stays together.  Dealing with multiple currencies and visas was a pain for travelers!!!!

You're mixing up the EU with the Eurozone. Actually, it would be a good thing to get rid of the Euro.  It has basically allowed Germany to prosper at the expense of the poorer members of the Eurozone.

[craigt3365]

8 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

You're mixing up the EU with the Eurozone. Actually, it would be a good thing to get rid of the Euro.  It has basically allowed Germany to prosper at the expense of the poorer members of the Eurozone.

Excellent point.  But for a traveler, a single currency is fantastic.

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, jaidam said:

The German vice chancellor is choking on his sour grapes. Remember they warned the UK would have financial crisis if it chose to Brexit? Well, since we decided to Brexit the British economy is going great guns, strong growth on all fronts - increased consumer demand, job creation, less borrowing, higher FTSE. It's all good. Meanwhile the German economy has weakened since Brexit - with no hope for any recovery.

 

 Brexit is the gift that never stops giving. Every moan and whine only increases the pleasurable bask in the sun that is post Brexit Britain. Hooray.

 

You're still basking on the economic benefits of still being in the EU set up; like an oil tanker, an economy doesn't turn on a sixpence, and certainly not in 2 months. You're referring to the strength of the economy as an EU member, not as a country that is outside of the EU. 

 

We're still in the EU, we haven't left yet. Since 1973 when we joined the UK has been the fastest growth major economy in Europe, between 1950 and 1972 it was the slowest. So we may actually be reverting back to our 1950 performance, we just don't know until we are out and we are clear on the terms of trade with the EU. They just don't mention these things in the The Sun and the Daily Mail.

 

What the German is saying is that there is no incentive to negotiate a good deal with the UK, in other words, there is an incentive to negotiate a bad one! So the uncertainty and constant leaks when the negotiations get underway after Article 50 is triggered will create even more instability ... not great for inward investment and you will likely see EU headquarters of multinationals and banks transfer to mainland Europe. They want free trade with 500 million plus people, not 60 million. Domestic firms will be more cautious also, not good for employment. And immigration continues unabated, so more people competing for fewer jobs. 

 

But not to worry, we have Boris, Liam and David bumbling along completely clueless as to what it takes to build trade deals ... they are busy fighting amongst themselves ... fiddling as Rome burns! 

 

What a mess! The funny part is that it is self-inflicted. And idiots gloat at this great victory! Hooray ... let's build some warships and retake the Empire ... for England and St George! 

 

 

 

[OMGImInPattaya]

Or it could go "up the spout."

[thaibeachlovers]

Sounds like a "good thing" to me. Just look at Greece as an example of what is to come. The Brits are geting out just in time.

[AlexRich]

21 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sounds like a "good thing" to me. Just look at Greece as an example of what is to come. The Brits are geting out just in time.

 

Greece should never have been allowed to join the Euro in the first place, they gave money to Goldman Sachs to fiddle their books. They then went on an epic borrowing binge, and are inherently corrupt. They now find themselves in a mess of their own making, and will most likely have to leave the Euro as the others will tire of bailing them out and the Greeks will not be able to sustain the austerity. Greece cheated their way into the Euro and are now paying the consequences.

 

The UK never joined the Euro, and played by the rules. The comparison doesn't make much sense. As Greece was getting worse, the U.K. was improving, with the highest growth of all ... within the EU ... not outside. 

[smedly]

they need to remember that trade works both ways, as for immigration - I don't think anyone has or will complain about skilled people coming to the UK to work provided they actually have a job - contribute to the economy and are not allowed welfare unless they have made suitable contributions "in the UK".............as for refugees - well that is a different matter entirely

[smedly]

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

You're still basking on the economic benefits of still being in the EU set up; like an oil tanker, an economy doesn't turn on a sixpence, and certainly not in 2 months. You're referring to the strength of the economy as an EU member, not as a country that is outside of the EU. 

 

We're still in the EU, we haven't left yet. Since 1973 when we joined the UK has been the fastest growth major economy in Europe, between 1950 and 1972 it was the slowest. So we may actually be reverting back to our 1950 performance, we just don't know until we are out and we are clear on the terms of trade with the EU. They just don't mention these things in the The Sun and the Daily Mail.

 

What the German is saying is that there is no incentive to negotiate a good deal with the UK, in other words, there is an incentive to negotiate a bad one! So the uncertainty and constant leaks when the negotiations get underway after Article 50 is triggered will create even more instability ... not great for inward investment and you will likely see EU headquarters of multinationals and banks transfer to mainland Europe. They want free trade with 500 million plus people, not 60 million. Domestic firms will be more cautious also, not good for employment. And immigration continues unabated, so more people competing for fewer jobs. 

 

But not to worry, we have Boris, Liam and David bumbling along completely clueless as to what it takes to build trade deals ... they are busy fighting amongst themselves ... fiddling as Rome burns! 

 

What a mess! The funny part is that it is self-inflicted. And idiots gloat at this great victory! Hooray ... let's build some warships and retake the Empire ... for England and St George! 

 

 

 

so you think trade between the EU and the UK will end, it will continue as it is now and the reason is simple - it benefits both ways and actually the UK imports more from the EU than It exports - it doesn't take a genius to work out how that is going to look in 2-3 years time...............exactly the same as it is now.  The UK is now on a position to set up trade agreements with whoever they want without going through some EU commission, it is also worth noting that the EU USA trade deal that they have been negotiating for several years now is on the threshold of failure

 

Don't underestimate what a failure the EU has been, like I said on another thread - who is going to bail out Italy and Spain who are on the verge of collapse and that is a fact, other EU member states will be under threat if they loose trade with the UK, the EU cannot survive without the UK as a trade partner - that is a fact

[AlexRich]

13 minutes ago, smedly said:

so you think trade between the EU and the UK will end, it will continue as it is now and the reason is simple - it benefits both ways and actually the UK imports more from the EU than It exports - it doesn't take a genius to work out how that is going to look in 2-3 years time...............exactly the same as it is now.  The UK is now on a position to set up trade agreements with whoever they want without going through some EU commission, it is also worth noting that the EU USA trade deal that they have been negotiating for several years now is on the threshold of failure

 

Don't underestimate what a failure the EU has been, like I said on another thread - who is going to bail out Italy and Spain who are on the verge of collapse and that is a fact, other EU member states will be under threat if they loose trade with the UK, the EU cannot survive without the UK as a trade partner - that is a fact

 

No one said trade ends ... but it will not be free unfettered access, unless of course we give up on free movement, and perhaps contribute to the EU. Much the same as now except no say in the rules. So it will be restricted in some way with tariffs and onerous compliance requirements ... the point that you and others fail to understand is that the break up of the EU is what they are trying to avoid ... so they have an incentive to give the UK a very bad deal ... and that will outweigh any trade benefits. They do not need us more than we need them ... that's a miscalculation ... which you'll appreciate when the terms of negotiation get underway. The only thing that the EU countries are united on is that the UK will not get a good deal.

 

And do you really think that we will get fantastic trade deals with the US, China and others? That will take decades, not years, if it happens at all. We don't even have a team in place with appropriate expertise. A country's biggest trading partners tend to be its neighbours ... for obvious reasons ... the further away they are the greater the cost. Italy, Spain, Greece and all the others will muddle through, perhaps by leaving the Euro ... but the trade zone is likely to survive and prosper once the Euro is either gone or is restricted to northern European countries. The EU is going through a difficult time, just like the UK did when it was the 'sick man' of Europe, but there is nothing written in the sand that this is a permanent issue ... the EU is quite capable of adjusting to new realities, as the UK did. Something you have underestimated. 

 

 

[smedly]

33 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

No one said trade ends ... but it will not be free unfettered access, unless of course we give up on free movement, and perhaps contribute to the EU. Much the same as now except no say in the rules. So it will be restricted in some way with tariffs and onerous compliance requirements ... the point that you and others fail to understand is that the break up of the EU is what they are trying to avoid ... so they have an incentive to give the UK a very bad deal ... and that will outweigh any trade benefits. They do not need us more than we need them ... that's a miscalculation ... which you'll appreciate when the terms of negotiation get underway. The only thing that the EU countries are united on is that the UK will not get a good deal.

 

And do you really think that we will get fantastic trade deals with the US, China and others? That will take decades, not years, if it happens at all. We don't even have a team in place with appropriate expertise. A country's biggest trading partners tend to be its neighbours ... for obvious reasons ... the further away they are the greater the cost. Italy, Spain, Greece and all the others will muddle through, perhaps by leaving the Euro ... but the trade zone is likely to survive and prosper once the Euro is either gone or is restricted to northern European countries. The EU is going through a difficult time, just like the UK did when it was the 'sick man' of Europe, but there is nothing written in the sand that this is a permanent issue ... the EU is quite capable of adjusting to new realities, as the UK did. Something you have underestimated. 

 

 

all your opinion of course which I don't happen to agree with - only time will tell, a sensible approach by all concerned and this will turn out ok, yes the UK might have to contribute to some extent and what they end up with may be very similar to what exists now except for one thing - the UK will no longer technically be a part of the EU - that is what the people voted for and that is how this will end

[phantomfiddler]

Nice to know the Brits finally accomplished something worthwhile

[Baerboxer]

5 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

You're still basking on the economic benefits of still being in the EU set up; like an oil tanker, an economy doesn't turn on a sixpence, and certainly not in 2 months. You're referring to the strength of the economy as an EU member, not as a country that is outside of the EU. 

 

We're still in the EU, we haven't left yet. Since 1973 when we joined the UK has been the fastest growth major economy in Europe, between 1950 and 1972 it was the slowest. So we may actually be reverting back to our 1950 performance, we just don't know until we are out and we are clear on the terms of trade with the EU. They just don't mention these things in the The Sun and the Daily Mail.

 

What the German is saying is that there is no incentive to negotiate a good deal with the UK, in other words, there is an incentive to negotiate a bad one! So the uncertainty and constant leaks when the negotiations get underway after Article 50 is triggered will create even more instability ... not great for inward investment and you will likely see EU headquarters of multinationals and banks transfer to mainland Europe. They want free trade with 500 million plus people, not 60 million. Domestic firms will be more cautious also, not good for employment. And immigration continues unabated, so more people competing for fewer jobs. 

 

But not to worry, we have Boris, Liam and David bumbling along completely clueless as to what it takes to build trade deals ... they are busy fighting amongst themselves ... fiddling as Rome burns! 

 

What a mess! The funny part is that it is self-inflicted. And idiots gloat at this great victory! Hooray ... let's build some warships and retake the Empire ... for England and St George! 

 

 

 

 

That's your interpretation of what he's saying. Actually, whilst some EU politicians, notably French, have cried for a punishing of the UK to "warn off" others who might be thinking of leaving, Mrs Merkel and now her deputy have both stated it needs to be handled carefully. They do not want to give Britain more than they have to. Britain will cease making very large net positive contributions, which others will have to cover, and then there is the question of free movement. However, the real issue that's hidden but underlies all these comments is how they can keep moving towards their federal more closely linked ideal without upsetting the apple cart. The hard left liberal federalists have been making veiled, and not so veiled threats to any others who might be thinking of leaving. They're so far up their own anuses that they think they can get away with bullying all the 27 members to accept a closer union, with reducing sovereignty, less real democracy or electoral accountability and more and more autocratic decision making from the "founding members club, or the new big three of Germany, France and Italy (joke). 

This is about politicians committed to a political ideal, regardless of whether all the member nations, and the people of EU want it. They are arrogant enough to believe they know best. When the German FM said that in the future "elections can't be allowed to change things" he wasn't joking. That is his, and many of his colleagues view on democracy. You can vote for different people, but the policies must all be "approved" and not change direction or the goal. Rather like China who must be tired of EU hypocrisy in democracy lectures. So if you want to be rules by bureaucrats appointed to govern by politicians because they are of the same political mind, and with no changes allowed, then you must love the direction the EU is going.

Merkel and this gent are rightly worried that too much pressure and open bullying might provoke a reaction in some member countries and might cause a massive backlash and leaving. That is their real fear. The grip isn't tight enough yet.

[Baerboxer]

12 minutes ago, phantomfiddler said:

Nice to know the Brits finally accomplished something worthwhile

 

More than your turnip heap did eh?

[Sakeopete]

In or out of the EU, countries will want access to British consumers. In the end the British people will be doing business as usual with Europe but on their own terms. 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

That's your interpretation of what he's saying. Actually, whilst some EU politicians, notably French, have cried for a punishing of the UK to "warn off" others who might be thinking of leaving, Mrs Merkel and now her deputy have both stated it needs to be handled carefully. They do not want to give Britain more than they have to. Britain will cease making very large net positive contributions, which others will have to cover, and then there is the question of free movement. However, the real issue that's hidden but underlies all these comments is how they can keep moving towards their federal more closely linked ideal without upsetting the apple cart. The hard left liberal federalists have been making veiled, and not so veiled threats to any others who might be thinking of leaving. They're so far up their own anuses that they think they can get away with bullying all the 27 members to accept a closer union, with reducing sovereignty, less real democracy or electoral accountability and more and more autocratic decision making from the "founding members club, or the new big three of Germany, France and Italy (joke). 

This is about politicians committed to a political ideal, regardless of whether all the member nations, and the people of EU want it. They are arrogant enough to believe they know best. When the German FM said that in the future "elections can't be allowed to change things" he wasn't joking. That is his, and many of his colleagues view on democracy. You can vote for different people, but the policies must all be "approved" and not change direction or the goal. Rather like China who must be tired of EU hypocrisy in democracy lectures. So if you want to be rules by bureaucrats appointed to govern by politicians because they are of the same political mind, and with no changes allowed, then you must love the direction the EU is going.

Merkel and this gent are rightly worried that too much pressure and open bullying might provoke a reaction in some member countries and might cause a massive backlash and leaving. That is their real fear. The grip isn't tight enough yet.

 

The common view that unites Europe currently is that the UK will get a worse deal on leaving than staying, the French will try to manoeuvre to their own advantage, but essentially the EU will have the whip hand in negotiations. You presume that it is just business as usual, I think you are wrong there ... the UK leaving has put a halt to further integration ... perhaps the one good thing to come out of this. The Germans want to keep the EU together because it has been good economically and has encouraged good relations rather than wars, something that is overlooked. I don't think for one second that Merkel is concerned about a backlash internally in Europe should the terms on the UK be viewed as harsh. She is playing the 'good' cop, just like she did during the Greek crisis. The ultimate aim is to ensure that the terms of exit are poor, and are seen to be poor ... and we shall see this once the negotiations are underway.

 

 

[Junkyarddog]

Why is it when reading thru matters like this Angela Merkel seems to be in charge of everything?

[Kabula]

 If the truth be known it probably already has looking at Deutsche Bank's stock value and more!

 

It's not a question if, but when their time will end which will send financial shock waves far and wide.

[KBsinter]

MERKEL is the EU,( WITH OUT ANY CONTRADICTIONS) and she will dominate,after the debacle of open borders

did she have meetings with EU leaders "like hell she did"this is her legacy,god help THE EU. in the future when Islam

will be a major problem,and the UK is looking on from our Island. 

[MJP]

7 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

You're still basking on the economic benefits of still being in the EU set up; like an oil tanker, an economy doesn't turn on a sixpence, and certainly not in 2 months. You're referring to the strength of the economy as an EU member, not as a country that is outside of the EU. 

 

We're still in the EU, we haven't left yet. Since 1973 when we joined the UK has been the fastest growth major economy in Europe, between 1950 and 1972 it was the slowest. So we may actually be reverting back to our 1950 performance, we just don't know until we are out and we are clear on the terms of trade with the EU. They just don't mention these things in the The Sun and the Daily Mail.

 

What the German is saying is that there is no incentive to negotiate a good deal with the UK, in other words, there is an incentive to negotiate a bad one! So the uncertainty and constant leaks when the negotiations get underway after Article 50 is triggered will create even more instability ... not great for inward investment and you will likely see EU headquarters of multinationals and banks transfer to mainland Europe. They want free trade with 500 million plus people, not 60 million. Domestic firms will be more cautious also, not good for employment. And immigration continues unabated, so more people competing for fewer jobs. 

 

But not to worry, we have Boris, Liam and David bumbling along completely clueless as to what it takes to build trade deals ... they are busy fighting amongst themselves ... fiddling as Rome burns! 

 

What a mess! The funny part is that it is self-inflicted. And idiots gloat at this great victory! Hooray ... let's build some warships and retake the Empire ... for England and St George! 

 

 

 

 

Just an anecdotal. But . . . 

 

Off the back of Brexit, one of our "EU" based clients has increased investment in the UK by £7 billion, their board overjoyed at the referendum result. Before the vote their German finance director was urging all the Brits on site to vote Leave. He said, if the UK leaves the EU, I'm moving to the UK and bringing all my money with me. He reckoned the EU was a disaster. 

[williamgeorgeallen]

convenient to blame the brits. takes the spotlight off her immigration failings.