Can you get citizenship/permenant residency from ED-Visas?

[Soul Foam]

So I have been taking the hand to hand combat school in Chiang Mai which is a 1 year visa, at which I go to immigration every 90 days to extend for another 90 days.

 

The owner of the school said I could renew for another year (as I've just extended for my last time today).

 

Eventually I would love to either be able to get Thai citizenship or permenant residency. I study the Thai language on my own daily, and speak enough to get around and socialize for sure, and within the next couple years I will obviously have improved majorly. 

 

Now I was reading you need tax receipts and other things for 5 years if applying for citizenship (or even permenant residency too I think right?). But I don't work here (all my money is made online), so I'm not paying taxes or anything like that. 

 

If I were to stay here for 5 years on an Ed Visa, would that count towards being able to get citizenship/pr?? I'm assuming I can keep renewing my Ed visa (according to the owner) for as long as the laws allow it I suppose or if the school were to shut down or whatever.

 

I want to stay in Thailand long term, and probably for the rest of my life. I'm not anywhere near 50 years old for a retirement visa. 

 

Its sad there isn't any legit visa options (besides that elite visa which costs a pretty penny) for people who aren't old and retired. I just don't want to be on annoying visas my whole life. 

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Yes, no problem.

[chiang mai]

Very very few westerners ever gain Thai citizenship, it's limited historically to super low numbers, in the tens or low hundreds over years. Think Plan B.

[tonray]

I don't see why Thailand would not jump at the chance to nationalize a foreigner who does not work, pays no taxes and attends hand to hand combat school. They would be crazy not to make you a citizen and maybe even give you a title too.

Edited September 5, 2016 by tonray

[JackThompson]

Apologies for some of the sarcastic answers you will get here - do not let it discourage you, but do be prepared for some hurdles.  I envy you finding this place while young - I wish I had. 

 

As you seem to have figured out, Ed and Tourist Visa options are not a good long-term bet for a young person to stay here long-term - but you do not need to get PR or Citizenship to stay indefinitely, either.  Many have lived here for decades with B (business) or O (marriage) visas.  The only way you, as a young person who is not rich (elite), would be able to stay here for the long haul, would be via marriage and/or work.  That work could be volunteer work (which is available in your area). 

 

As to your question, in Thailand, obtaining PR or Citizenship is a long process, and it is NOT like in most countries, where it is semi-automatic if you stay legally for some period of time and/or are married.  There are many criteria considered - a sort of "points" system.  Your income and being married to a Thai are considered.  If you could start a business here and pay taxes on that income, and if it is significant, that could also work. 

 

While looking ahead to qualifying for PR or Citizenship is a good idea, it is a bit premature to give it too much thought unless you already have worked here for awhile.  There are two threads with pretty much all you need to know (at least to get started) on PR or Citizenship (someone jump in and correct me if I am missing a better one):

  Best of luck and enjoy Thailand.

[Soul Foam]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Apologies for some of the sarcastic answers you will get here - do not let it discourage you, but do be prepared for some hurdles.  I envy you finding this place while young - I wish I had. 

 

As you seem to have figured out, Ed and Tourist Visa options are not a good long-term bet for a young person to stay here long-term - but you do not need to get PR or Citizenship to stay indefinitely, either.  Many have lived here for decades with B (business) or O (marriage) visas.  The only way you, as a young person who is not rich (elite), would be able to stay here for the long haul, would be via marriage and/or work.  That work could be volunteer work (which is available in your area). 

 

As to your question, in Thailand, obtaining PR or Citizenship is a long process, and it is NOT like in most countries, where it is semi-automatic if you stay legally for some period of time and/or are married.  There are many criteria considered - a sort of "points" system.  Your income and being married to a Thai are considered.  If you could start a business here and pay taxes on that income, and if it is significant, that could also work. 

 

While looking ahead to qualifying for PR or Citizenship is a good idea, it is a bit premature to give it too much thought unless you already have worked here for awhile.  There are two threads with pretty much all you need to know (at least to get started) on PR or Citizenship (someone jump in and correct me if I am missing a better one):

  Best of luck and enjoy Thailand.

Thank you so much for that awesome reply. The sarcastic answers I won't pay any attention to. I'd be perfectly willing to pay taxes etc but I don't have a viable outlet to do that, which is why I'm trying to gain info on the subject. I guess those posters are better than me because they are taking Thai money instead of bringing it in, I'm sure Thailand appreciates that much more.... 

 

Thank you you again for your response, I will read up on those threads.

 

I'm just looking for viable solutions to stay long term, even if it's not permenant residency or citizenship, just wasn't sure if that was my best option or whatever. 

[beano2274]

no chance for PR without having paid taxes, but you can stay long term with Ed Visas or the Elite card.

 

[lostinisaan]

. But I don't work here (all my money is made online), so I'm not paying taxes or anything like that. 

 

  Would Thais want you here?

Edited September 5, 2016 by lostinisaan

[beano2274]

am married to a Thai, but luckily enough we live in Europe and she has a Residence Card.

 

The info has been given to you about what is required, or other ways to stay longer in Thailand, those are the only ways for you. It is also not easy for Farang men to get their wife's to Europe, there are also a lot of things that they have to do, for instance having a salary of so much money or savings, the Residence things works both ways

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Soul Foam said:

Thank you so much for that awesome reply. The sarcastic answers I won't pay any attention to. I'd be perfectly willing to pay taxes etc but I don't have a viable outlet to do that, which is why I'm trying to gain info on the subject. I guess those posters are better than me because they are taking Thai money instead of bringing it in, I'm sure Thailand appreciates that much more.... 

 

Thank you you again for your response, I will read up on those threads.

 

I'm just looking for viable solutions to stay long term, even if it's not permenant residency or citizenship, just wasn't sure if that was my best option or whatever. 

 

You can always ride out the 'ed' thing for as long as that will work.  Keep the volunteer idea in mind, as well - that does not need to be 'full time'. 

 

The only way you can pay taxes, is if you form a Thai company (2M Baht paid-up capital) or work for one (need qualifications) - or use a Thai company like "Iglu" for your invoicing; but Iglu is a min-spend of about $600/mo  (of $2000 USD gross billing) including tax and a work-permit. 

 

Last thing - and this is important for peace of mind / sanity: In case the visa-situation changes abruptly, have a backup plan.  I am always ready to move to Cambodia, with The Philippines and Vietnam as secondary options.  All those have easy, inexpensive visa-options to live long-term at any age.

Edited September 5, 2016 by JackThompson

[muzmurray]

10 hours ago, Soul Foam said:

But I don't work here (all my money is made online), so I'm not paying taxes or anything like that. 

 

Yes you do work here, you are here doing your online work.

[williamgeorgeallen]

elite visa is for you. only about 3000usd per year. is an excellent visa option for those under 50. 

[cyrusgreat]

You must show  an income of minimum 80k baht and paid taxes and contributed to social fund every year for 3 years before you can apply for PR. The PR can be renewed every 5 years unless you decide to apply for Thai citizenship after the 5th year. Foreigners do not get PR as most of them do not pay taxes in Thailand.

[Jujus]

8 minutes ago, cyrusgreat said:

You must show  an income of minimum 80k baht and paid taxes and contributed to social fund every year for 3 years before you can apply for PR. The PR can be renewed every 5 years unless you decide to apply for Thai citizenship after the 5th year. Foreigners do not get PR as most of them do not pay taxes in Thailand.

Correction: a PR is not renewed every 5 years. It's a lifetime status.

[Soul Foam]

8 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 

You can always ride out the 'ed' thing for as long as that will work.  Keep the volunteer idea in mind, as well - that does not need to be 'full time'. 

 

The only way you can pay taxes, is if you form a Thai company (2M Baht paid-up capital) or work for one (need qualifications) - or use a Thai company like "Iglu" for your invoicing; but Iglu is a min-spend of about $600/mo  (of $2000 USD gross billing) including tax and a work-permit. 

 

Last thing - and this is important for peace of mind / sanity: In case the visa-situation changes abruptly, have a backup plan.  I am always ready to move to Cambodia, with The Philippines and Vietnam as secondary options.  All those have easy, inexpensive visa-options to live long-term at any age.

Thank you again for such a informational and helpful reply. I think for now I'll keep on ED visas until a better opportunity arises or until something happens regarding the ED Visa. 

 

I do love Thailand and would obviously prefer to be here than any of the other neighboring countries, but if it came down to it, it is what it is. 

 

I do have a lot of Thai business owner friends here that I'm close with (bars, restraunts, etc), who have plenty of Thai staff (and in most cases no foreign workers at all) not sure how work permits and those visas work, but if I happened to be "working" at a friends company, I could stay without issue until I am no longer working there, right?

 

27 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

elite visa is for you. only about 3000usd per year. is an excellent visa option for those under 50. 

3k a year vs the 1k a year for an Ed Visa though. If the Ed visas stop working, I think this will probably be my best option.

 

2 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

Yes you do work here, you are here doing your online work.

Wow with such a witty reply like that I figure you'd understand the concept of RESIDUAL INCOME. 

 

19 minutes ago, cyrusgreat said:

You must show  an income of minimum 80k baht and paid taxes and contributed to social fund every year for 3 years before you can apply for PR. The PR can be renewed every 5 years unless you decide to apply for Thai citizenship after the 5th year. Foreigners do not get PR as most of them do not pay taxes in Thailand.

And the only way to pay taxes etc then really is by working I'd assume... Hmmph.

[dbrenn]

9 hours ago, beano2274 said:

no chance for PR without having paid taxes, but you can stay long term with Ed Visas or the Elite card.

 

Right. Working legally and paying tax for the past three years, while living here on unbroken non-immigrant visa extensions, is a fundamental requirement for both PR and citizenship. 

[ubonjoe]

Some off topic and inflammatory posts have been removed that would derail the topic have been removed.  Topic is not about the legalities of working online. That has been discussed in dozens of other topics.

[SteveB2]

Lots of recent comment on the 'points system' used for PR application and other useful info on the following TV thread ...

 

[lostinisaan]

Eventually I would love to either be able to get Thai citizenship or permenant residency. I study the Thai language on my own daily, and speak enough to get around and socialize for sure, and within the next couple years I will obviously have improved majorly. 

 

    I would love to. Within the next couple of years I will....

           

     As one member already pointed out, you are working here and not paying taxes.

 

I do pay taxes, but don't like to pay for yours. But you do not seem to get that. 

 

       

[timendres]

2 hours ago, Soul Foam said:

Thank you again for such a informational and helpful reply. I think for now I'll keep on ED visas until a better opportunity arises or until something happens regarding the ED Visa. 

 

I do love Thailand and would obviously prefer to be here than any of the other neighboring countries, but if it came down to it, it is what it is. 

 

I do have a lot of Thai business owner friends here that I'm close with (bars, restraunts, etc), who have plenty of Thai staff (and in most cases no foreign workers at all) not sure how work permits and those visas work, but if I happened to be "working" at a friends company, I could stay without issue until I am no longer working there, right?

 

3k a year vs the 1k a year for an Ed Visa though. If the Ed visas stop working, I think this will probably be my best option.

 

Wow with such a witty reply like that I figure you'd understand the concept of RESIDUAL INCOME. 

 

And the only way to pay taxes etc then really is by working I'd assume... Hmmph.

 

If you know someone who can/is willing to acquire a work permit for you, then this is probably your best option. It is a hassle for the business owner, and incurs expenses, but all said is likely to be much less expensive than the elite visa. And has additional benefits - like the ability to legally work and get paid in Thailand.

 

There is a minimum salary requirement, but I am sure you understand that you and your employer can work out some arrangement on this. The taxes must be paid. You typically need some sort of degree and a resume, but that is not difficult arrange. And you need to not have stage 3 syphilis or elephantiasis    Yeah, that is an actual requirement for which you need a medical certificate. Don't ask what century that requirement came from. I cannot stress enough what a major hassle this is for the employer, so be sure to show your gratitude and be as accommodating as possible if taking this route.

 

There is no question that the immigration folks dislike people staying for long stretches on ED visas. A friend got static from immigration about a visa based on studying for an MBA at a fairly prominent university in Bangkok. The issue was simple - he was taking too long to finish. I suspect that ED visas will become more and more difficult for the foreseeable future.

 

Personally, I would take a good look at the work permit. It is a really good option if you can arrange it.

 

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Soul Foam said:

I do have a lot of Thai business owner friends here that I'm close with (bars, restraunts, etc), who have plenty of Thai staff (and in most cases no foreign workers at all) not sure how work permits and those visas work, but if I happened to be "working" at a friends company, I could stay without issue until I am no longer working there, right? 

 

First, there are job-categories forbidden to all non-citizens - including waiters and cashiers.  Your friends with businesses have those foreign-workers because they need 4 Thais employed to obtain their permission to stay from that business (only 2, in some areas, if your Thai-spouse is co-owner).  Note they cannot themselves do ANY work at their own business, unless obtaining a work-permit for some specialty (see the thread "work permit to visit my wife" for some humorous examples of farangs getting 'busted' for doing the smallest thing).  You would need to be creative to find a job you could do in a restaurant or bar, for which "no Thai citizen" could do the job.  There is another thread running about being a "consultant" to a restaurant.  Bottom line - we are permitted to stay here while we increase Thai-employment - not detract from it - perfectly reasonable, and I wish my own country followed a similar rule.

 

If you do find a job, being you are unmarried to a Thai, you would use a B-Visa with Work Permit.  After the "permitted stay" of visa itself expires, you get an additional 'permission to stay' from immigration - but that stay is contingent upon your remaining employed.  So on an immigration-office-issued 'permitted stay',  the day your job ends, your permission to stay ends - though you can do is go to immigration and get 7 days to leave the country.  Many go out and come back in on a TouristVisa or VisaExempt entry until they find a new job. 

 

If the 'permitted stay' was given upon entry at a border-checkpoint (the first 90 days of a single-entry, or within one of the 90-day entries of a multi), your permission to stay is not affected by the end of the job.  On each entry with a B type, you get 90 days, but you may be asked to show your work-permit upon subsequent entries using a multi-entry B.  To apply for the B-visa anywhere nearby, you need to show a successful / accepted 'application for letter' from the labor-office, for a work-permit, though the permit itself will not be issued until you have the visa.

 

Note: The above is what I have gleaned from reading countless discussions with others who have gone through this - anyone please jump in and correct me if I got any point wrong.

[JackThompson]

11 minutes ago, lostinisaan said:

As one member already pointed out, you are working here and not paying taxes.

 

I do pay taxes, but don't like to pay for yours. But you do not seem to get that.       

 

The solution to this is simple, and it is already done in The Philippines.  Without any huge capital requirement or set-up costs, you can get a business-license to do "outsourced" work, which comes with a visa to work there, provided all your work is for overseas clients.  Then you can pay taxes, no local-jobs are lost (and some gained when you hire) and everyone is happy. 

 

I wish I could do this here, as I must pay taxes on profits from my overseas-business to the USA, to spite getting no benefits whatsoever from that country.  I would much rather pay taxes here, where I currently (only) inject foreign-sourced capital from overseas-earnings and pay sales-taxes (including taxes my landlord pays on what I pay him).

 

Taxes here are not that high - I'd rather pay Thailand, a truly independent country, than the USA - a 'globalized' colony of the transnational corporations, which makes every effort to reduce the standard of living of its own citizens.  Maybe some day there will be a way I can pay taxes here, and help fund a patriotic government, for a change.

[billd766]

16 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Very very few westerners ever gain Thai citizenship, it's limited historically to super low numbers, in the tens or low hundreds over years. Think Plan B.

 

AFAIR there is a quota of 100 persons per nationality per year. I know that it is difficult to do and there are quite a few steps along the way.

 

Here are some of the many links for the OP to ponder.

 

Mods. I am sorry if I am not allowed to copy and paste other forum URL but it is specific to the OP.

 

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Thailand/Thailand-Guide/Visas-Permits/Thai-Citizenship

 

http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thai-permanent-residency.php

 

http://www.yaiban.com/thai-citizenship-requirements.php

 

http://www.ajarnforum.net/vb/showthread.php/13406-how-hard-is-it-too-become-a-thai-citizen

[LazySlipper]

First, unless you are on a university ed visa I really don't know how you will stay here fore 3 consecutive years back to back. Unless Immi has changed its ways or you have a special visa you will have to go out of the country to get another year ed visa. 

 

Correct me if I am wrong. 

 

Otherwise good luck.

 

Cheers

 

[performance]

19 hours ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Yes, no problem.

Funny your a good man

[Soul Foam]

4 hours ago, timendres said:

 

If you know someone who can/is willing to acquire a work permit for you, then this is probably your best option. It is a hassle for the business owner, and incurs expenses, but all said is likely to be much less expensive than the elite visa. And has additional benefits - like the ability to legally work and get paid in Thailand.

 

There is a minimum salary requirement, but I am sure you understand that you and your employer can work out some arrangement on this. The taxes must be paid. You typically need some sort of degree and a resume, but that is not difficult arrange. And you need to not have stage 3 syphilis or elephantiasis    Yeah, that is an actual requirement for which you need a medical certificate. Don't ask what century that requirement came from. I cannot stress enough what a major hassle this is for the employer, so be sure to show your gratitude and be as accommodating as possible if taking this route.

 

There is no question that the immigration folks dislike people staying for long stretches on ED visas. A friend got static from immigration about a visa based on studying for an MBA at a fairly prominent university in Bangkok. The issue was simple - he was taking too long to finish. I suspect that ED visas will become more and more difficult for the foreseeable future.

 

Personally, I would take a good look at the work permit. It is a really good option if you can arrange it.

 

What a great response. Honestly, thanks so much. It seems people here are extremely helpful or a circle jerk of off topic nit picking at my "working" situation in which they have no basis on besides me saying "I make money online", never did I say I was working, and people seem to think they know my situation based on 4 words. Clearly no one has ever made residual income from already created projects. Anyways, I think I will attempt to go this route, I'm definitley extremely close and good friends with a few of these Thai business owners, and as major of a hassle as it is, they would definitley be "compensated" :P. 

 

4 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 

First, there are job-categories forbidden to all non-citizens - including waiters and cashiers.  Your friends with businesses have those foreign-workers because they need 4 Thais employed to obtain their permission to stay from that business (only 2, in some areas, if your Thai-spouse is co-owner).  Note they cannot themselves do ANY work at their own business, unless obtaining a work-permit for some specialty (see the thread "work permit to visit my wife" for some humorous examples of farangs getting 'busted' for doing the smallest thing).  You would need to be creative to find a job you could do in a restaurant or bar, for which "no Thai citizen" could do the job.  There is another thread running about being a "consultant" to a restaurant.  Bottom line - we are permitted to stay here while we increase Thai-employment - not detract from it - perfectly reasonable, and I wish my own country followed a similar rule.

 

If you do find a job, being you are unmarried to a Thai, you would use a B-Visa with Work Permit.  After the "permitted stay" of visa itself expires, you get an additional 'permission to stay' from immigration - but that stay is contingent upon your remaining employed.  So on an immigration-office-issued 'permitted stay',  the day your job ends, your permission to stay ends - though you can do is go to immigration and get 7 days to leave the country.  Many go out and come back in on a TouristVisa or VisaExempt entry until they find a new job. 

 

If the 'permitted stay' was given upon entry at a border-checkpoint (the first 90 days of a single-entry, or within one of the 90-day entries of a multi), your permission to stay is not affected by the end of the job.  On each entry with a B type, you get 90 days, but you may be asked to show your work-permit upon subsequent entries using a multi-entry B.  To apply for the B-visa anywhere nearby, you need to show a successful / accepted 'application for letter' from the labor-office, for a work-permit, though the permit itself will not be issued until you have the visa.

 

Note: The above is what I have gleaned from reading countless discussions with others who have gone through this - anyone please jump in and correct me if I got any point wrong.

Oh! Very interesting. Didn't know certain jobs were forbidden, but I definitley would be handling "other things" in the business I'd be working for ;). Again, thanks for a great helpful response. 

 

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

AFAIR there is a quota of 100 persons per nationality per year. I know that it is difficult to do and there are quite a few steps along the way.

 

Here are some of the many links for the OP to ponder.

 

Mods. I am sorry if I am not allowed to copy and paste other forum URL but it is specific to the OP.

 

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Thailand/Thailand-Guide/Visas-Permits/Thai-Citizenship

 

http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thai-permanent-residency.php

 

http://www.yaiban.com/thai-citizenship-requirements.php

 

http://www.ajarnforum.net/vb/showthread.php/13406-how-hard-is-it-too-become-a-thai-citizen

Thanks! I will take a look through all of these posts and read up.

 

3 hours ago, LazySlipper said:

First, unless you are on a university ed visa I really don't know how you will stay here fore 3 consecutive years back to back. Unless Immi has changed its ways or you have a special visa you will have to go out of the country to get another year ed visa. 

 

Correct me if I am wrong. 

 

Otherwise good luck.

 

Cheers

 

I'm not sure about 3 years, but 2 is for sure do-able (told to me by the owner the school, he seemed very confident and at ease).  But yes I will have to leave the country to get the new 1 year Ed visa. But that's just a small little hassle, once a year, I can live with that. 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Soul Foam

[ericthai]

14 hours ago, cyrusgreat said:

  Foreigners do not get PR as most of them do not pay taxes in Thailand.

BS I have several friends with PR and one of my good friends just got Thai Citizenship last month.

[p_brownstone]

22 hours ago, cyrusgreat said:

You must show  an income of minimum 80k baht and paid taxes and contributed to social fund every year for 3 years before you can apply for PR. The PR can be renewed every 5 years unless you decide to apply for Thai citizenship after the 5th year. Foreigners do not get PR as most of them do not pay taxes in Thailand.

 

You do not have to "renew" PR every 5 years, all that is required is to renew the Alien Certificate every 5 years at the local Police Station - takes about 5 minutes and costs Baht 800.- .

 

Patrick

[Jujus]

2 hours ago, p_brownstone said:

 

You do not have to "renew" PR every 5 years, all that is required is to renew the Alien Certificate every 5 years at the local Police Station - takes about 5 minutes and costs Baht 800.- .

 

Patrick

Exactly. By the way, I never quite understood what happens if you don't redo your Alien Registration after 5 years. It is required to issue the Non-Quota Immigrant Visa in case you want to leave and reenter the country, but besides that?

[mike324]

The main requirement to gaining Citizenship / PR in Thailand is paying taxes, period. There is no way around it. I know folks who work as factory managers for over 20 years, they can't get PR / Citizenship because they haven't paid enough taxes. Don't think there is any country in the world which will give you PR/Citizenship from a ED Visa just because you lived in the country for X number of years without working.