PM Prayut says Thailand will be corruption-free in 20 years

[mike324]

On 9/14/2016 at 7:21 PM, waitforusalso said:

So, you are claiming to know what it was like after every coup in Thailand. Even if we did believe your spiel about being so connected in Thailand, this is a ludicrous claim. If you are so knowledgeable about the situation you would know that this coup is not about combating corruption, as you claim it is. As Ernest Bower, senior advisor at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, says in his report, the reason for this coup is well known, but has nothing to do with eradicating corruption. You have been fooled by the facade.

 

You claim there is no environment of fear.  I make a deliberate effort to ask as many Thais as possible about their assessment of the political situation and the overwhelming response I get is, "Be careful, you (we) are not allowed to discuss this topic." The military have done an astoundingly fine job of muzzling their citizens through threats and fear. Many Thais now equate the discussion of politics with lese majeste. Not really surprising given the army's heavy handed suppression of people's rights, including imprisoning thousands, dragging people away by their hair, man-handling women into vehicles, forcing people to take off t-shirts, removing stickers and taking down a simple calendar. I can literally purchase a Hitler calendar from the internet and hang it up without fear of repercussions from the military, but can't do the same with one of Yingluck Shinawatra.

 

There have been so many cases of military intervention in politics around the world throughout history, and the results are almost always negative. For someone who claims to be knowledgeable and experienced in Thailand I am surprised with your shallow views and interpretation of the situation.

 

 

I'm not claiming what it was like after every coup. Just my observation that after this recent coup, corruption has been curb significantly. Which part of my comment made you feel like I am so connected! Heck I even talk about I need to deal with corrupt government officials.  Yes the coup is not about combating corruption, its more politics / power grab / stability of the country. All I am saying is that it just so happened to have a positive effect on curbing corruption compare to when we had democratically elected party. Those who are anti-army fail to / does not want to admit this simple point. I as a businessmen is pretty damn happy that I deal with corrupted officials less.

 

I made clearly the statement that - "Freedom of Speech" was the exception regarding to environment of fear. So go reread what I said. Other than that, if you mind your own business, does not talk about politics. There really isn't any fear of a dictator taking over the country, killing people, what not.  Discussion of politics does not equate to Les Majeste, there is a lot of fear mongering among those anti-army folks. The truth is that most people could care less and are living their lives just the same, those that are crying like a baby are those who are involved with politics and foreigners who can't stop crying about "freedom of speech", "dictator running the country" , etc etc. Again, I don't deny the blatant disrespect of freedom of speech about the government, and the PM throwing sissy fits and tantrums, and the iron grip the army has with the passing of the new constitution. But again like many other folks, we don't give a damn because it doesn't really effect us in any way. I really have seen it all, this does not scare me, I've been through worse times in Thailand.

 

This thread is about corruption, which is what I am discussing....your lame jab at saying "I am surprised with your shallow views and interpretation of the situation" good try buddy. Stay on topic smarty pants.

[JayBeeee]

Good to see the regular contributions of objective, constructive and considered comment from the TVF gang!

[smutcakes]

On September 14, 2559 BE at 11:41 AM, mike324 said:

 

Yes, this coup IS different, very different if you haven't noticed.  Politics wise, its the same if not worse just because the army has an iron grip on it now. It depends on how you view it. Impact on law enforcement wise, as I've said its a night and day difference if you actually deal with civil servants. Heck even those applying for citizenship and PR are having their applications moving along faster!

 

" A political purge isn't cleaning up corruption. As soon as the military have gone and this general environment of fear has been lifted, nothing will have changed. All that will have been achieved is that democracy is pushed back by 20 years. Democracy takes time to mature, which can't happen with this constant intervention by the military. "

 

Only time will tell to see if people will change, but if laws are constantly enforced, it will become a habit. People are more outspoken nowadays as well due to social media and more connected online. People are already changing in fear of being caught filmed / posted online. There is no general environment of fear if you did not do anything wrong - OTHER than the one big point "Freedom of Speech", that is another big topic itself. Thailand has been sliding backwards even with democratically elected officials, so I would say we are at a crossroads of taking two steps back before we can move forward again. Democracy doesn't need time to mature, if you read the constitution the rules and laws there. Whats lacking is just simple law enforcement.

 

People complain about intervention by the military, but for over 10 years, why aren't people complaining about the bigger problem. Intervention of the Police, they are the real parasites effecting Thailand's society holding it back from development.

 

 

 

The 'fear' has obviously not reached the IEAT or lands departments yet..............

 

I deal with these civil servants day in day out, and the same people, same faces, same practices for the last 10 years... i would be interested to know which departments you have been dealing with where things have changed, people have been removed etc? The police are parasites, but the whole organisation, structure and promotion system is exactly the same as the military, they are just more visible. Would you trust the police to reform the country? so why would you trust the military. 

 

As someone else said this is their 19th attempt, and nothing which has gone before suggests that their motives and desire for change is any different to what has gone before.

[waitforusalso]

1 hour ago, mike324 said:

 

I'm not claiming what it was like after every coup. Just my observation that after this recent coup, corruption has been curb significantly. Which part of my comment made you feel like I am so connected! Heck I even talk about I need to deal with corrupt government officials.  Yes the coup is not about combating corruption, its more politics / power grab / stability of the country. All I am saying is that it just so happened to have a positive effect on curbing corruption compare to when we had democratically elected party. Those who are anti-army fail to / does not want to admit this simple point. I as a businessmen is pretty damn happy that I deal with corrupted officials less.

 

I made clearly the statement that - "Freedom of Speech" was the exception regarding to environment of fear. So go reread what I said. Other than that, if you mind your own business, does not talk about politics. There really isn't any fear of a dictator taking over the country, killing people, what not.  Discussion of politics does not equate to Les Majeste, there is a lot of fear mongering among those anti-army folks. The truth is that most people could care less and are living their lives just the same, those that are crying like a baby are those who are involved with politics and foreigners who can't stop crying about "freedom of speech", "dictator running the country" , etc etc. Again, I don't deny the blatant disrespect of freedom of speech about the government, and the PM throwing sissy fits and tantrums, and the iron grip the army has with the passing of the new constitution. But again like many other folks, we don't give a damn because it doesn't really effect us in any way. I really have seen it all, this does not scare me, I've been through worse times in Thailand.

 

This thread is about corruption, which is what I am discussing....your lame jab at saying "I am surprised with your shallow views and interpretation of the situation" good try buddy. Stay on topic smarty pants.

Ahhh, I see, another one of the 'I'm doing alright out of the coup, so it's good" crew. We've had quite a few of these on TVF. Selfish to say the least. Try telling people that have been thrown in an army jail or thrown out of their job for nothing more than their political allegiances, that corruption has decreased.

[mike324]

1 hour ago, smutcakes said:

 

The 'fear' has obviously not reached the IEAT or lands departments yet..............

 

I deal with these civil servants day in day out, and the same people, same faces, same practices for the last 10 years... i would be interested to know which departments you have been dealing with where things have changed, people have been removed etc? The police are parasites, but the whole organisation, structure and promotion system is exactly the same as the military, they are just more visible. Would you trust the police to reform the country? so why would you trust the military. 

 

As someone else said this is their 19th attempt, and nothing which has gone before suggests that their motives and desire for change is any different to what has gone before.

 

I beg to differ, lots land encroachment cases have proceeded under the military rule

 

I deal mostly with the customs, as well as local district offices. Nobody has been removed, but for examples - customs don't ask for tea money and asks me to pay full tax majority of the times. Local district offices, I own residential apartments, I have to pay taxes monthly and they come around to check how many rooms are rented out - as taxes are based on how many rooms are rented out as well. Again they have been enforcing the taxes and don't openly ask for bribes (they still ask for it), but they don't dare threaten me like before.

 

The thing is that the military does not have their hands on everything in this country compare to the police. The police have ties with everyday businesses ... hence I feel like its a good change even though we are moving backwards in regards to how a society should progress

[smutcakes]

Just now, mike324 said:

 

I beg to differ, lots land encroachment cases have proceeded under the military rule

 

I deal mostly with the customs, as well as local district offices. Nobody has been removed, but for examples - customs don't ask for tea money and asks me to pay full tax majority of the times. Local district offices, I own residential apartments, I have to pay taxes monthly and they come around to check how many rooms are rented out - as taxes are based on how many rooms are rented out as well. Again they have been enforcing the taxes and don't openly ask for bribes (they still ask for it), but they don't dare threaten me like before.

 

The thing is that the military does not have their hands on everything in this country compare to the police. The police have ties with everyday businesses ... hence I feel like its a good change even though we are moving backwards in regards to how a society should progress

 

hmmm, i disagree but each to their own. 

[mike324]

Just now, smutcakes said:

 

hmmm, i disagree but each to their own. 

 

Care to explain your experiences so we can compare even though we disagree?

[smutcakes]

1 minute ago, mike324 said:

 

Care to explain your experiences so we can compare even though we disagree?

 

I feel the military are every bit involved in 'business' as the police are. The army structure, hierarchy, system of promotion etc is exactly the same as the police.  I don't believe they are any better, and I have seen zero difference in the agencies i deal with in the past decade regardless of who is or is not in Government.

[mike324]

33 minutes ago, waitforusalso said:

Ahhh, I see, another one of the 'I'm doing alright out of the coup, so it's good" crew. We've had quite a few of these on TVF. Selfish to say the least. Try telling people that have been thrown in an army jail or thrown out of their job for nothing more than their political allegiances, that corruption has decreased.

 

Nope not one bit selfish. I am just like majority of the citizens who have no interest in voicing their opinion about politics publicly and loudly, that does no equate to being selfish. I see eye to eye with you regarding to freedom of speech. I don't deny how corrupt and dirty politics still is even with the army in charge, in fact I have mention numerous times, freedom of speech is worse. You just can't seem to hold back and try to call me negative things can't you.  

[waitforusalso]

5 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

Nope not one bit selfish. I am just like majority of the citizens who have no interest in voicing their opinion about politics publicly and loudly, that does no equate to being selfish. I see eye to eye with you regarding to freedom of speech. I don't deny how corrupt and dirty politics still is even with the army in charge, in fact I have mention numerous times, freedom of speech is worse. You just can't seem to hold back and try to call me negative things can't you.  

It is just tiresome listening to people offer anecdotal evidence and trying to pass it of as a generalization. Stop trying to speak for the "majority of the citizens". You have but 1 opinion.

[mike324]

4 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

 

I feel the military are every bit involved in 'business' as the police are. The army structure, hierarchy, system of promotion etc is exactly the same as the police.  I don't believe they are any better, and I have seen zero difference in the agencies i deal with in the past decade regardless of who is or is not in Government.

 

If you are referring to "businesses" as illegal establishments Massage Parlours, Gambling Dens, Bars, Clubs, etc. Yes I agree with you, they are in the same bed, BUT those in the military that are involved are only those with high ranking postilions, small rank soldiers have no play in these type business compare to police. The police are involved from the very top to bottom. The top police are shareholders of these establishments along with top military officials The promotion structure is no different too which I agree.

 

Why the police is a lot worse if because they are pretty much connected with the entire society and take/demand bribes from everywhere. From street vendors to local markets, big and small businesses, etc. The small rank soldiers don't. Hence this is why the police are so much worse. Not only that, public own companies such as THAI, PTT, all have high ranking police on the board, there are very few that have army rank.

 

What agences do you deal with in the past decade?

 

[smutcakes]

9 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

If you are referring to "businesses" as illegal establishments Massage Parlours, Gambling Dens, Bars, Clubs, etc. Yes I agree with you, they are in the same bed, BUT those in the military that are involved are only those with high ranking postilions, small rank soldiers have no play in these type business compare to police. The police are involved from the very top to bottom. The top police are shareholders of these establishments along with top military officials The promotion structure is no different too which I agree.

 

Why the police is a lot worse if because they are pretty much connected with the entire society and take/demand bribes from everywhere. From street vendors to local markets, big and small businesses, etc. The small rank soldiers don't. Hence this is why the police are so much worse. Not only that, public own companies such as THAI, PTT, all have high ranking police on the board, there are very few that have army rank.

 

What agences do you deal with in the past decade?

 

 

Other than immigration, my main dealings are with the lands department, IEAT and BOI.

 

A cursory glance at PTT and Thai shows there is much more armed force presence on boards than police. Historically particularly THAi has always been the preserve of armed forces.

[mike324]

32 minutes ago, waitforusalso said:

It is just tiresome listening to people offer anecdotal evidence and trying to pass it of as a generalization. Stop trying to speak for the "majority of the citizens". You have but 1 opinion.

 

I don't speak for the majority, just pointing out that majority don't voice their opinion about politics hence we have no fear of being put behind bars like you keep on saying. You keep on taking what I say and twisting it based on how you see fit. Just like how you keep on characterizing me and trying to put me down just because you don't disagree with what I say. Yes quite tiresome to deal with people like you. I have 1 opinion, so what? If you don't like my opinion, then just ignore me. If you don't believe, me then thats your problem. Corruption regarding to high profile cases have proceeded more so than in the past. If you want to brush it off, feel free to do so.  If you want to debate, then talk with more substance regarding to the issue instead of taking silly jabs at me.

[mike324]

10 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

 

Other than immigration, my main dealings are with the lands department, IEAT and BOI.

 

A cursory glance at PTT and Thai shows there is much more armed force presence on boards than police. Historically particularly THAi has always been the preserve of armed forces.

 

I deal with the BOI too, they are pretty clean, not once did they ever asked for under the table in over 20 years. Nowadays immigration is pretty straight forward as well, back then when it was at the Sathorn office, they asked for tea money more often. They don't offer it, but its available. Don't deal with IEAT, can't comment. Land department is pretty straight forward as well, don't think they are that bad especially if you have a Thai handling the documents for you, based on experience the only times when they demand tea money was when it involves big plots of land. I agree, not much has change for those agencies you mention.

 

PTT and THAI do have more of the army buddies on board now since they are running the country. You are correct about THAI with having more armed forces in general actually, guess its planes so more air chief marshals involved.

[waitforusalso]

2 hours ago, mike324 said:

 

I don't speak for the majority, just pointing out that majority don't voice their opinion about politics hence we have no fear of being put behind bars like you keep on saying. You keep on taking what I say and twisting it based on how you see fit. Just like how you keep on characterizing me and trying to put me down just because you don't disagree with what I say. Yes quite tiresome to deal with people like you. I have 1 opinion, so what? If you don't like my opinion, then just ignore me. If you don't believe, me then thats your problem. Corruption regarding to high profile cases have proceeded more so than in the past. If you want to brush it off, feel free to do so.  If you want to debate, then talk with more substance regarding to the issue instead of taking silly jabs at me.

"I don't speak for the majority.."

REALLY? So what are these quotes from this thread?

"People are more outspoken nowadays"
"just pointing out that majority don't voice their opinion about politics"
" I am just like majority of the citizens"
"The truth is that most people"
"But again like many other folks"

 

I am fine with people having opinions, even if I don't agree with them. I just hate people that are so arrogant  that they believe they know what the majority think! 
 

[mike324]

18 hours ago, waitforusalso said:

"I don't speak for the majority.."

REALLY? So what are these quotes from this thread?

"People are more outspoken nowadays"
"just pointing out that majority don't voice their opinion about politics"
" I am just like majority of the citizens"
"The truth is that most people"
"But again like many other folks"

 

I am fine with people having opinions, even if I don't agree with them. I just hate people that are so arrogant  that they believe they know what the majority think! 
 

 

My general statements are a FACT. If you do not think so, lets debate about it, which part is arrogant. Again, you don't stick to the topic, but take jabs at how I talk. You are just full of smoke and hate because you clearly don't accept other folks who don't think and speak like you.

[waitforusalso]

21 hours ago, mike324 said:

 

I don't speak for the majority, just pointing out that majority don't voice their opinion about politics hence we have no fear of being put behind bars like you keep on saying. You keep on taking what I say and twisting it based on how you see fit. Just like how you keep on characterizing me and trying to put me down just because you don't disagree with what I say. Yes quite tiresome to deal with people like you. I have 1 opinion, so what? If you don't like my opinion, then just ignore me. If you don't believe, me then thats your problem. Corruption regarding to high profile cases have proceeded more so than in the past. If you want to brush it off, feel free to do so.  If you want to debate, then talk with more substance regarding to the issue instead of taking silly jabs at me.

"I don't speak for the majority.."

REALLY? So what are these quotes from this thread?

"People are more outspoken nowadays"
"just pointing out that majority don't voice their opinion about politics"
" I am just like majority of the citizens"
"The truth is that most people"
"But again like many other folks"

 

I am fine with people having opinions, even if I don't agree with them. I just hate people that are so arrogant  that they believe they know what the majority think! 

 

FACTS! Self-proclaimed facts. You have just clearly outlined that you are small-minded and simple. I've had enough of this tiresome exchange!

[mike324]

2 minutes ago, waitforusalso said:

"I don't speak for the majority.."

REALLY? So what are these quotes from this thread?

"People are more outspoken nowadays"
"just pointing out that majority don't voice their opinion about politics"
" I am just like majority of the citizens"
"The truth is that most people"
"But again like many other folks"

 

I am fine with people having opinions, even if I don't agree with them. I just hate people that are so arrogant  that they believe they know what the majority think! 

 

FACTS! Self-proclaimed facts. You have just clearly outlined that you are small-minded and simple. I've had enough of this tiresome exchange!

 

Hey buddy if you can't debate, stop trying to take lame jabs. You really bring no substance to this forum, just armed with lame insults. Its really indeed tiresome trying to defend lame insults instead of staying on topic.

 

FACT is that "People are more outspoken nowadays" is that not true, isn't that why people are in jail for freedom of speech off silly things like "Vote No"?

 

"Just pointing out that majority don't voice their opinion about politics publicly and loudly" Which part of that is not true? Its a FACT or else we'll all be in jail.

 

You cut off the rest of my sentences up so bad, I'm not even going to respond. 

[mike324]

16 minutes ago, waitforusalso said:

 

FACTS! Self-proclaimed facts. You have just clearly outlined that you are small-minded and simple. I've had enough of this tiresome exchange!

 

" your shallow views and interpretation of the situation. "

"  You have but 1 opinion. "

"  you are small-minded and simple. "

 

After replying your questions regarding to the topic, you started a personal assault at me instead of staying on topic. Wonder who is the narrow minded and insulting one who has to turn to personal attacks. 

[brucec64]

On 9/16/2016 at 11:26 AM, mike324 said:

 

I'm not claiming what it was like after every coup. Just my observation that after this recent coup, corruption has been curb significantly. Which part of my comment made you feel like I am so connected! Heck I even talk about I need to deal with corrupt government officials.  Yes the coup is not about combating corruption, its more politics / power grab / stability of the country. All I am saying is that it just so happened to have a positive effect on curbing corruption compare to when we had democratically elected party. Those who are anti-army fail to / does not want to admit this simple point. I as a businessmen is pretty damn happy that I deal with corrupted officials less.

 

I made clearly the statement that - "Freedom of Speech" was the exception regarding to environment of fear. So go reread what I said. Other than that, if you mind your own business, does not talk about politics. There really isn't any fear of a dictator taking over the country, killing people, what not.  Discussion of politics does not equate to Les Majeste, there is a lot of fear mongering among those anti-army folks. The truth is that most people could care less and are living their lives just the same, those that are crying like a baby are those who are involved with politics and foreigners who can't stop crying about "freedom of speech", "dictator running the country" , etc etc. Again, I don't deny the blatant disrespect of freedom of speech about the government, and the PM throwing sissy fits and tantrums, and the iron grip the army has with the passing of the new constitution. But again like many other folks, we don't give a damn because it doesn't really effect us in any way. I really have seen it all, this does not scare me, I've been through worse times in Thailand.

 

This thread is about corruption, which is what I am discussing....your lame jab at saying "I am surprised with your shallow views and interpretation of the situation" good try buddy. Stay on topic smarty pants.

The thai corruption index in 2014 was 38. The thai corruption index in 2015 was 38. Facts backed by solid research do not support your claim that corruption has been reduced. 

[waitforusalso]

44 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

Hey buddy if you can't debate, stop trying to take lame jabs. You really bring no substance to this forum, just armed with lame insults. Its really indeed tiresome trying to defend lame insults instead of staying on topic.

 

but, but everything I say is a fact! Lol

[mike324]

2 hours ago, brucec64 said:

The thai corruption index in 2014 was 38. The thai corruption index in 2015 was 38. Facts backed by solid research do not support your claim that corruption has been reduced. 

 

If you point out data from 2013 was 35 and 2012 was 37. Corruption has been decreasing, even though there was no change from 2014 to 2015. If you look at how they measure a country, quote from the site " Based on expert opinion, the Corruption Perceptions Index measures the perceived levels of public sector corruption worldwide. "  It involves people reporting corruption to their chapters in each country, and chapters in each country work to monitor the corruption, yet there is no chapter in Thailand.

 

I wouldn't take a no change in standings from 2014 to 2015 as proven indication that corruption is not decreasing. On the same note, I am not brushing off that the site is inaccurate or anything, it is still a good gauge of how corrupt a country is. But your statement of saying "solid research do not support your claim" is not any more accurate than my own experience. The "solid research" isn't very solid without a local chapter, especially if its based on an expert opinion analyzing a country from abroad.

 

If you take a look at the index numbers of when we had an democratically elected government, it was even lower in many of the years! On top of that if you take a look at the number of corruption cases eg. land encroachment, illegal establishment cases, etc that actually was able to move forward/action taken, more of these cases moved forward in the past 2 years compare to when we had an democratically elected government in the past decade.