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Could I have diabetes ?


Once Bitten

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" $925 ????  Have you found a place in Thailand to do the same tests ?

I just use this package as a guide and get best price I can and then do the lab work at most cost effective places ( like Chula , the government hospital across from Lumpini ... Then meet with different Dr.'s to go over the numbers and at the same time learn as much as I can to also understand the numbers so I can be a part of my health care not having to leave it all up to Dr. . That premium package items really covers so much so I get the heads up about things before red flags that only limited test reveal by the times issues have progressed .

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           Well I went to St Mary’s Hospital in Korat and requested the ‘’Standard Checkup ‘’

 

The price for the Standard Checkup package was 1,800 Baht.

 

Plus I asked for the following additional tests to be added to the standard checkup test list , extra cost per test shown.     

 

HDL ( High Density Lipoprotein ) - 190 Baht
LDL  ( LowDensity Lipoprotein   ) -170 Baht
PSA for prostrate cancer - 670 Baht
Thyroid Panel...
T3 - 400 Baht
T4 - 330 Baht  ( TF4 400 Baht )
TSH - 400 Baht

 

I was told that the Test for T4 would have to be sent out and the results would take several days to receive back . I was then told that if I had a FT4 test instead ( a similar test I was assured ) the test results would be available that the same day along with all the other blood work results.

 

I opted for a FT4 test instead of the T4.

 

So the complete test had the following items-

 

Vital Signs & physical Examination
Chest X-ray
Complete Blood Count
Urine Analysis
Creatinine
Fasting Blood Sugar
Cholesterol
Triglyceride
HDL ( High Density Lipoprotein )
LDL  ( LowDensity Lipoprotein )
HBsAg ( Hepatitis B Antigen )
Anti HBs ( Antibody to Hepatitis )
Liver Function
SGOT
SGPT
PSA for prostrate cancer
Thyroid Panel ( T3 / TF4 / TSH )

 

Procedure -

 

First blood pressure taken - 142/85
Weight -82.4Kg
Color blindness test ( colored dots in a circle with numbers )
Eyesight test - look at a wall chart and say what you can see.
Blood sample taken
Gave a urine sample
Chest X-ray taken

 

Told to go and get some thing to eat and return in 1-1/2 hours.

 

Returned later, informed that the blood test results were not yet ready , please sit and wait .

 

Ten minuets later I was shown into a Doctors office , the Doctor looked to be in his late 60s early 70s , and of Thai/Chinese decent.

 

He went through the test results , showing me my test scores and the normal reference range figures.

 

As he went down the test results list, he made the following comments-

 

That my Cholesterol numbers were a bit high , and he recommended that I resume a diet program and increase my exercise , but no current need to take any medication.

 

That my Glucose ( sugar ) number was a bit high and he recommended that I resume a diet program especially avoiding sugary snacks and sweets and increase my exercise, but no current need to take any medication.

 

That my blood pressure was a bit high , and he recommended that I resume a diet program and increase my exercise , but no current need to take any medication.

 

That my prostrate may be enlarged and he recommended having a full upper and lower body ultrasound scan , just to confirm .

 

The upper and lower ultrasound scan would be an extra 1,700 Baht .So I decided to take his recommendation and had the scan done there and then .

 

After the upper and lower ultrasound scan was completed I was shown back into the Doctors office , where he looked at the results and said that my prostrate was not enlarged and of normal size and there were no other signs of any problems shown in the ultrasound scan results.

 

I questioned him once more on the possibility of diabetes / prostrate problems and his reply was , every thing seems to be ok , just follow his recommendation of continuing a diet program and increase my exercise, and go back to see him in a year.

 

Over all I left the hospital with some slight doubts still in my mind , the Doctor seemed to me to be some what a little vague with his opinion and over all enthusiasm.

 

I could not fault the hospital staff or the system.

 

I was of course a great sigh of relief to come away from the hospital with less trepidation than I went in with ( But still some doubt on my mind )  

 

To put my mind further to rest , I am going to some how try and get another opinion  on my test result numbers ,  I'm hoping that Sheryl may help to put my mind at ease .

 

 

The over all cost involved for the checkup was 5,580 Baht

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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106 fasting glucose is pre dietetic . Over half the population in the US is either diabetic or pre-diabetic . The average person in the US consumes about 165 pounds of sugar in some form yearly , it's quite amazing and it's like sugar is the new tobacco hopefully it won't take decades for people to understand this very real science like it did with tobacco .

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The information the doctor gave you regarding your cholesterol and blood sugar is correct: both are elevated but at a level that may be possible to control solely through diet and exercise, and that should be tried first before resorting to medication. By the way, these results along with your weight/BMI are consistent with so-called "metabolic syndrome" (AKA "insulin resistance"), you may want to google that. It would account for your difficulty in losing weight.

 

The most important change to make to your diet is to eliminate processed carbs - white rice, white bread, white pastas/noodles and of course anything with added sugar.  Switch to whole grains (wholewheat bread, brown rice etc), eat more  fruit and vegetables,  more fish than meat (occasional meat OK though). Do whatever works for you to increase your level of exercise - even moderate change will help, and it is IMO better to make smaller changes that you can really stick to on a permanent basis than go all out on something you'll not be able to stick with.  After a month or two of this,  you should notice not only some weight loss but an overall improvement in energy levels/well-being.  After 3 months, repeat only the HDL/LDL choleseterol, triglyceride and fasting glucose and quite likely these will have improved or even dropped to normal.

 

Not doing the above --> with time you will progress to diabetes and to elevated lipids at a level requiring medication (and carrying risk of cardiovascular disease and other problems). So the check-up was timely.

 

So much for the blood tests. Regarding you problem with frequent urination, you still need to see a urologist and have a manual exam of prostate.  To properly assess  the prostate by ultrasound it needs to be a rectal ultrasound (probe put in through the rectum - a finger will be less uncomfortable and depending on what is felt, may avoid the need for the probe!) and also needs to be read by a urologist. (In the West GPs may be experienced enough to do this but medicine in Thailand is highly specialized and I would not rely on a Thai GP for this especially in someone who is symptomatic). 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The information the doctor gave you regarding your cholesterol and blood sugar is correct: both are elevated but at a level that may be possible to control solely through diet and exercise, and that should be tried first before resorting to medication. By the way, these results along with your weight/BMI are consistent with so-called "metabolic syndrome" (AKA "insulin resistance"), you may want to google that. It would account for your difficulty in losing weight.

 

The most important change to make to your diet is to eliminate processed carbs - white rice, white bread, white pastas/noodles and of course anything with added sugar.  Switch to whole grains (wholewheat bread, brown rice etc), eat more  fruit and vegetables,  more fish than meat (occasional meat OK though). Do whatever works for you to increase your level of exercise - even moderate change will help, and it is IMO better to make smaller changes that you can really stick to on a permanent basis than go all out on something you'll not be able to stick with.  After a month or two of this,  you should notice not only some weight loss but an overall improvement in energy levels/well-being.  After 3 months, repeat only the HDL/LDL choleseterol, triglyceride and fasting glucose and quite likely these will have improved or even dropped to normal.

 

Not doing the above --> with time you will progress to diabetes and to elevated lipids at a level requiring medication (and carrying risk of cardiovascular disease and other problems). So the check-up was timely.

 

So much for the blood tests. Regarding you problem with frequent urination, you still need to see a urologist and have a manual exam of prostate.  To properly assess  the prostate by ultrasound it needs to be a rectal ultrasound (probe put in through the rectum - a finger will be less uncomfortable and depending on what is felt, may avoid the need for the probe!) and also needs to be read by a urologist. (In the West GPs may be experienced enough to do this but medicine in Thailand is highly specialized and I would not rely on a Thai GP for this especially in someone who is symptomatic). 

 

 

 

Once again Sheryl ,  thanks for taking the time to comment and your informative suggestions , its much appreciated .

 

I will post back my diet and exercise progress and the results from the next test results .

 

 

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1 hour ago, chubby said:

How long has your SBP  been 160 mm hg?  

 

You have diabetes in the family? 

 

 

My first Blood pressure test ( taken at hospital while treating a badly cut finger ) some time ago was 161/73 ( taken on the right arm ) the nurse then took the blood pressure on my left arm , and that showed 149/77.

 

The blood pressure taken while having the recent St Mary's checkup , was 142/85 .

 

As far as I know there is no diabetes in my family

 

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Readings in hospital can be elevated due to stress etc. This is especially likely if it is only the systolic (first number) that is elevated.

 

Suggest you get a home BP monitor (type that goes around the arm, not the wrist) and monitor it at home, at rest, around the same time each day.

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24 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Readings in hospital can be elevated due to stress etc. This is especially likely if it is only the systolic (first number) that is elevated.

 

Suggest you get a home BP monitor (type that goes around the arm, not the wrist) and monitor it at home, at rest, around the same time each day.

 

Good advice ,  just ordered one , should be here in a couple of days , I will post back how I get on.

 

Thanks

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  • 1 month later...
On 9/26/2559 at 1:16 PM, Once Bitten said:

 

Good advice ,  just ordered one , should be here in a couple of days , I will post back how I get on.

 

Thanks

 

Well as Sheryl suggested I purchased a home BP monitor ( Omron HEM-7130 ) and I thought I would now post back my blood pressure results after using the BPM for one month

 

Oct%20BP%20Chart_zpsyuwntchg.jpg

 

The BP was taken around the same time every day ( 7-9 am ) seated / same arm ,  before I did my treadmill routine.

 

( * )  Got on the treadmill before taking the BP

 

I’m still continuing my diet and daily treadmill workouts and starting to over all feel better.

 

In another two months I will have a new blood test ( HDL/LDL choleseterol, triglyceride and fasting glucose ) to see if any thing has changed .

 

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On 9/14/2016 at 3:38 AM, Gumballl said:

If your urine is foamy when it comes out, it could be a positive sign of too much sugar in the body.  Still not sure... take a piss outside, and see if the ants throw a party.

 

Actually foamy urine is typically either too much protein in the diet or an interaction of urine with toilet bowl cleaners.

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On 9/24/2016 at 3:27 AM, Cook my sock said:

I've heard that cinnamon (sri Lankan variety is safer)and turmeric are great for stabilising blood sugar levels

 

Almonds, oatmeal and spinach are excellent at controlling blood glucose levels.

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Common symptoms of diabetes:
  • Urinating often.
  • Feeling very thirsty.
  • Feeling very hungry - even though you are eating.
  • Extreme fatigue.
  • Blurry vision.
  • Cuts/bruises that are slow to heal.
  • Weight loss - even though you are eating more (type 1)
  • Tingling, pain, or numbness in the hands/feet (type 2)
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11 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

Actually foamy urine is typically either too much protein in the diet or an interaction of urine with toilet bowl cleaners.

 

Foamy urine - especially if there is an orange cast to the foam - is commonly seen when there is excessive  bilirubin in the urine  and hence an early sign of liver problems.

 

Not  related to protein in the diet. If you take in more protein that you need, the body just breaks it down into glucose and then stores it as fat.

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11 hours ago, Once Bitten said:

 

Well as Sheryl suggested I purchased a home BP monitor ( Omron HEM-7130 ) and I thought I would now post back my blood pressure results after using the BPM for one month

 

Oct%20BP%20Chart_zpsyuwntchg.jpg

 

The BP was taken around the same time every day ( 7-9 am ) seated / same arm ,  before I did my treadmill routine.

 

( * )  Got on the treadmill before taking the BP

 

I’m still continuing my diet and daily treadmill workouts and starting to over all feel better.

 

In another two months I will have a new blood test ( HDL/LDL choleseterol, triglyceride and fasting glucose ) to see if any thing has changed .

 

 

 

BP is perfect. You do not have hypertssnion. The elevated systolic readings at the hospital; likely due to so-called "white coat syndrome" and/or problems with accuracy of the measurement  (cuff size, machine calibration etc).

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  • 2 months later...
On 9/21/2559 at 9:20 AM, Sheryl said:

The information the doctor gave you regarding your cholesterol and blood sugar is correct: both are elevated but at a level that may be possible to control solely through diet and exercise, and that should be tried first before resorting to medication. By the way, these results along with your weight/BMI are consistent with so-called "metabolic syndrome" (AKA "insulin resistance"), you may want to google that. It would account for your difficulty in losing weight.

 

The most important change to make to your diet is to eliminate processed carbs - white rice, white bread, white pastas/noodles and of course anything with added sugar.  Switch to whole grains (wholewheat bread, brown rice etc), eat more  fruit and vegetables,  more fish than meat (occasional meat OK though). Do whatever works for you to increase your level of exercise - even moderate change will help, and it is IMO better to make smaller changes that you can really stick to on a permanent basis than go all out on something you'll not be able to stick with.  After a month or two of this,  you should notice not only some weight loss but an overall improvement in energy levels/well-being.  After 3 months, repeat only the HDL/LDL choleseterol, triglyceride and fasting glucose and quite likely these will have improved or even dropped to normal.

 

Not doing the above --> with time you will progress to diabetes and to elevated lipids at a level requiring medication (and carrying risk of cardiovascular disease and other problems). So the check-up was timely.

 

So much for the blood tests. Regarding you problem with frequent urination, you still need to see a urologist and have a manual exam of prostate.  To properly assess  the prostate by ultrasound it needs to be a rectal ultrasound (probe put in through the rectum - a finger will be less uncomfortable and depending on what is felt, may avoid the need for the probe!) and also needs to be read by a urologist. (In the West GPs may be experienced enough to do this but medicine in Thailand is highly specialized and I would not rely on a Thai GP for this especially in someone who is symptomatic). 

 

 

 

 

Well its now been just over 3 months since my original health checkup and blood test results , so I took Sheryl’s advice and obtained a second blood test ( 3 months after the first one ) . 3 months ago after the health checkup I did start a new diet and exercise regime ( Low carb diet and daily treadmill work outs ).


Here below are the original blood test results and the new recent blood test results .


As you can see there has been a change in the latest numbers ,

 

 

First blood test1.jpg

 

 

 

 

Clinic Blood Test 1-1.jpg

 

 

I’m going to have a third blood test in another 3 months just to keep an eye on things , so hopefully the need for drugs to help lower the numbers may have been averted by changing my life style .

 

 

 

Edited by Once Bitten
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On 11/3/2016 at 9:09 AM, Sheryl said:

 

Foamy urine - especially if there is an orange cast to the foam - is commonly seen when there is excessive  bilirubin in the urine  and hence an early sign of liver problems.

 

Not  related to protein in the diet. If you take in more protein that you need, the body just breaks it down into glucose and then stores it as fat.

 

Easy to resolve - Direct and total bilirubin tests are about 120 baht at most labs. If there's even a slight chance bilirubin is elevated, get it checked. By the time you start urinating bilirubin, you're already well above the safe limit.

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  • 3 months later...
On 1/6/2017 at 6:58 PM, Once Bitten said:

 

Well its now been just over 3 months since my original health checkup and blood test results , so I took Sheryl’s advice and obtained a second blood test ( 3 months after the first one ) . 3 months ago after the health checkup I did start a new diet and exercise regime ( Low carb diet and daily treadmill work outs ).


Here below are the original blood test results and the new recent blood test results .


As you can see there has been a change in the latest numbers ,

 

 

First blood test1.jpg

 

 

 

 

Clinic Blood Test 1-1.jpg

 

 

I’m going to have a third blood test in another 3 months just to keep an eye on things , so hopefully the need for drugs to help lower the numbers may have been averted by changing my life style .

 

 

 

 

Well today was my 3rd blood test and I had my fingers firmly crossed that the numbers would have improved after continuing on my diet and exerciser routine for another month .

 

I’m too not sure of what to think about these latest numbers , the cholesterol numbers on the last test seem higher .:sad:

 

Blood%20Test%20Final%20XXXX_zpsiqmwe7gk.

 

 

 

 

 

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What has risen is the HDL cholesterol which is the "good cholesterol". That is good, not bad. Your LDL ("bad choleserol" has stayed about that same and is in normal range. Your triglycerides have come down nicely.

 

Most important,, your LDL/HDL raio is  a very healthy 1.5 (goal is <3).   And your total Cholesterol/HDL ratio is a very good 3.85 (goal is <4.5).

 

These two rations are the best predictors of subsequent adverse health outcomes. So your lipid numbers are excellent, the increase in HDL has improved matters.

 

Your fasting glucose though is still in the pre-diabetic range, though towards the low end of it. If you can further decrease processed carbs in your diet, may help. Beyond that -- keep up the good work!

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Hi - At 67 also, some of these things recur and I have had many of the same symptoms... yes, blood test is a definite. Blood pressure can be monitored at home with a 2000 baht home unit. It fluctuates. The waking up to urinate at night, I have had good luck with Permixon and Prostagutt which is an herbal mix of Saw Palmetto... 

 

I have also never had health issues until recently and it is like adjusting a chemistry set... I don't like taking meds, and try to keep dosages low. I never wanted to take statins but have started. I do take half a pill for BP - The realization is that w/o some of these meds, the risk of stroke or heart attack is greater.... 

 

My first doctor wanted me on the max dosage of everything, which left me listless. I struggle with diet and lose the battle more easily than the extra weight. I am now taking 25% of first recommended doses and my cholesterol and BP are near perfect. I do keep checking both, which has meant regular and frequent blood tests... it is not that expensive to check and easily done locally. 

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On 4/10/2017 at 10:37 PM, Sheryl said:

What has risen is the HDL cholesterol which is the "good cholesterol". That is good, not bad. Your LDL ("bad choleserol" has stayed about that same and is in normal range. Your triglycerides have come down nicely.

 

Most important,, your LDL/HDL raio is  a very healthy 1.5 (goal is <3).   And your total Cholesterol/HDL ratio is a very good 3.85 (goal is <4.5).

 

These two rations are the best predictors of subsequent adverse health outcomes. So your lipid numbers are excellent, the increase in HDL has improved matters.

 

Your fasting glucose though is still in the pre-diabetic range, though towards the low end of it. If you can further decrease processed carbs in your diet, may help. Beyond that -- keep up the good work!

Sheryl , thanks for the encouragement :thumbsup: and advice.

 

I think Ive all ready eliminated nearly every processed carb related foods that I can think of, Ive now been on the same low carb / daily treadmill routine for 6 Months .

 

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On 4/10/2017 at 10:38 PM, kenk24 said:

Hi - At 67 also, some of these things recur and I have had many of the same symptoms... yes, blood test is a definite. Blood pressure can be monitored at home with a 2000 baht home unit. It fluctuates. The waking up to urinate at night, I have had good luck with Permixon and Prostagutt which is an herbal mix of Saw Palmetto... 

 

I have also never had health issues until recently and it is like adjusting a chemistry set... I don't like taking meds, and try to keep dosages low. I never wanted to take statins but have started. I do take half a pill for BP - The realization is that w/o some of these meds, the risk of stroke or heart attack is greater.... 

 

My first doctor wanted me on the max dosage of everything, which left me listless. I struggle with diet and lose the battle more easily than the extra weight. I am now taking 25% of first recommended doses and my cholesterol and BP are near perfect. I do keep checking both, which has meant regular and frequent blood tests... it is not that expensive to check and easily done locally. 

Thanks for your comments , I have a home blood pressure monitor and check my BP every day , and I get a blood test every 3 months ( 500 Baht a time  ) , this getting old lark is not for the faint heated or those of a nervous disposition  :biggrin:    . My daily diet / treadmill routine has become a fixture and way of life , having said that there are times when it feels a burden , but reverting back to my old bad habits makes me nervous , so seeing / feeling the benefits both physically and mentally , makes me just keep going , but to where I’m not too sure. My continuing blood test results only encourage me to carry on.

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Once Bitten said:

Sheryl , thanks for the encouragement :thumbsup: and advice.

 

I think Ive all ready eliminated nearly every processed carb related foods that I can think of, Ive now been on the same low carb / daily treadmill routine for 6 Months .

 

 

Well, you can't do more than that :))

 

Carry on and just keep an eye in the blood sugar. A periodic HbA1c may be more useful than the fasting glucose.  The "white coat syndrome" (nervousness/stress when at the doctor's) can cause a temporary rise in blood sugar. So it may be that your true level is a bit lower than 100. The HbA1c on the other hand shows what has been happening over a period of time so more reliable.

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  • 8 months later...
On 4/12/2017 at 2:09 PM, Sheryl said:

 

Well, you can't do more than that :))

 

Carry on and just keep an eye in the blood sugar. A periodic HbA1c may be more useful than the fasting glucose.  The "white coat syndrome" (nervousness/stress when at the doctor's) can cause a temporary rise in blood sugar. So it may be that your true level is a bit lower than 100. The HbA1c on the other hand shows what has been happening over a period of time so more reliable.

Ive been  continuously  staying on my diet and daily exercises plan since my original first blood test back in September 2016 and ive been pleased by my gradual weigh loss to date and over all feeling better.

 

 So to day I decided to have another blood test  , thinking that as Ive not wandered off my positive healthy life style diet and daily treadmill routine ,  apart from the occasional celebration.  And that my new blood test numbers would be positive and show a possible improvement on the past results. 

 

What a shock !!:shock1:

 

I'm not really sure what to think or why my results seem to have deteriorated , or what needs to be done to reverse these apparent negative results.

 

Any thoughts please . 

 

 

 

 

 

BloodTestFinal.jpg

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There are different opinions about total cholesterol levels but I would consider those levels acceptable. 

 

I wouldn't be too concerned about the slight elevation of your FBS level either. What you need to do is start testing yourself and getting more readings in order to get a better idea of your average, rather than an occasional reading (only 3 readings in 11 months)... and then get an HbA1c reading, which gives you an average over the past 3 months. They are about 300 - 350 in labs here. This will give you a much better idea of whether you're heading for diabetes or not.

 

Why didn't you have an FBS reading on September 20, 2016? Your first reading is 102, which is just very slightly above normal.

 

Here's an example of my random FBS levels over the last 6 months: 125 - 111 - 110 - 100 - 109 - 85 - 104 - 96 - 103 - 106 - 105.

 

The 125 one was odd, as was the 85 reading. FBS can be like this. I don't panic if it is under 110, but don't like seeing higher than that. It has been same for over 10 years, floating around the 100 - 110 mark on average. FBS is hard to control as it doesn't respond to dietary changes much, and if so, very slowly. If I do a lot of cardio exercise mine goes lower. Weight training doesn't help to control it.

 

If your HbA1c and regular daily readings are getting up towards the 125 mark, you need to see how you respond to food, so testing yourself after meals is important. You need to eliminate or cut back on foods that cause big spikes in your readings. 

 

There's a lot of good information available on the Internet, as well as some very good forums. Educate yourself!

 

 

Edited by tropo
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17 minutes ago, tropo said:

There are different opinions about total cholesterol levels but I would consider those levels acceptable. 

 

I wouldn't be too concerned about the slight elevation of your FBS level either. What you need to do is start testing yourself and getting more readings in order to get a better idea of your average, rather than an occasional reading (only 3 readings in 11 months)... and then get an HbA1c reading, which gives you an average over the past 3 months. They are about 300 - 350 in labs here. This will give you a much better idea of whether you're heading for diabetes or not.

 

Why didn't you have an FBS reading on September 20, 2016? Your first reading is 102, which is just very slightly above normal.

 

Here's an example of my random FBS levels over the last 6 months: 125 - 111 - 110 - 100 - 109 - 85 - 104 - 96 - 103 - 106 - 105.

 

The 125 one was odd, as was the 85 reading. FBS can be like this. I don't panic if it is under 110, but don't like seeing higher than that. It has been same for over 10 years, floating around the 100 - 110 mark on average. FBS is hard to control as it doesn't respond to dietary changes much, and if so, very slowly. If I do a lot of cardio exercise mine goes lower. Weight training doesn't help to control it.

 

If your HbA1c and regular daily readings are getting up towards the 125 mark, you need to see how you respond to food, so testing yourself after meals is important. You need to eliminate or cut back on foods that cause big spikes in your readings. 

 

There's a lot of good information available on the Internet, as well as some very good forums. Educate yourself!

 

 

 

Thanks tropo 

 

The first blood test was taken in a hospital well being package and it seems not to have included FBS .

 

I now realize I made a mistake in not having more frequent blood tests ,  just thinking that if I stick to my diet and daily exercise routine then the blood test numbers will only get better :crying:

 

 

I think Sheryl mentioned the HbA1c test but I forgot about asking for it with today's blood test.

 

I'm not sure where I'm going wrong in relation to my diet and daily exercise routine , ive eliminated nearly every thing that's been recommended to improve cholesterol levels .


Where you say - If your HbA1c and regular daily readings are getting up towards the 125 mark, you need to see how you respond to food, so testing yourself after meals is important .

 

I'm not sure what you mean by regular daily readings , and testing your self after meals . How would I be able to get daily readings , other than driving to the Test Lab ( 140 km round trip ) . 

 

Ive checked many articles on the internet and its head spinning looking at so many different points of view .  

 

 

 

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