Pink I.D Card & Yellow Book

[williamgeorgeallen]

17 minutes ago, halloween said:

As if there are only 2 choices. Are you American?

no but we have 2 choices in australia and 2 choices in new zealand as well. people actually get to choose in those countries. if half of bangkok is yellow then less than a quarter of thailand must be yellow.  wonder if PAD (yellows) have ever won an election in thailand over the last 80 years. cant find anything on google.

[halloween]

1 minute ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

no but we have 2 choices in australia and 2 choices in new zealand as well. people actually get to choose in those countries. if half of bangkok is yellow then less than a quarter of thailand must be yellow.  wonder if PAD (yellows) have ever won an election in thailand over the last 80 years. cant find anything on google.

I have considerably more than 2 choices in Australia, as do Thais. Your division of the country into red and yellow is puerile, much of the country are apolitical or prefer minor parties.

[williamgeorgeallen]

32 minutes ago, halloween said:

I have considerably more than 2 choices in Australia, as do Thais. Your division of the country into red and yellow is puerile, much of the country are apolitical or prefer minor parties.

puerile -  silly or childish especially in a way that shows a lack of seriousness or good judgment. agreed. are there minor parties here and do they have any clout in the government?

[tbthailand]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

Easily verified facts are easily verified. Waiting...........

ah, yes, ... you're going to take the fact that I don't spoon feed you pumpkin pie to justify ignoring your own biases against democracy, due process, and human rights.

 

Why am I not surprised....  

 

 

[MZurf]

So when you make a dubious claim, I should look it up? Why, because you can't substantiate your claim?
I find it interesting that you allege others turn a blind eye to corruption, while you insist that we should do so for those you support. If as you claim you are not whining about Yingluk's prosecution, why do you disparage the anti-corruption bodies rooting it out? Are you actually claiming PTP was corruption free, against all evidence to the contrary?
I make no claims that the junta re not corrupt, but they are far less than those they usurped.

" I make no claims that the junta re not corrupt, but they are far less than those they usurped."

And you know this how?? You DO know that investigating the finances of the "PM" and his cronies are not allowed, right?
So, with that in mind: how do you know?

[halloween]

12 hours ago, MZurf said:

 

" I make no claims that the junta re not corrupt, but they are far less than those they usurped."

And you know this how?? You DO know that investigating the finances of the "PM" and his cronies are not allowed, right?
So, with that in mind: how do you know?

 

Because nobody is wondering where B600 billion went to?

[halloween]

13 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

puerile -  silly or childish especially in a way that shows a lack of seriousness or good judgment. agreed. are there minor parties here and do they have any clout in the government?

2011 was contested by 38 minor parties, 74 seats were won by 9 of them. In a closer election a coalition with BJT (34) or CTP (19) could decide who forms the government, which is what happened when PPP was disbanded. What colour do you assign to the 6.5 million Thais who voted other than PTP or Dem?

[halloween]

13 hours ago, tbthailand said:

ah, yes, ... you're going to take the fact that I don't spoon feed you pumpkin pie to justify ignoring your own biases against democracy, due process, and human rights.

 

Why am I not surprised....  

 

 

We both know that you can't support your claim. I suppose it does seem unfair that Yingluk is being prosecuted by an intelligent, competent and informed, and above all, honest woman - the comparison is far from flattering. Hence the need for false claims about her and the NACC, and a few insults for anyone who dares point out the lies.

[williamgeorgeallen]

49 minutes ago, halloween said:

2011 was contested by 38 minor parties, 74 seats were won by 9 of them. In a closer election a coalition with BJT (34) or CTP (19) could decide who forms the government, which is what happened when PPP was disbanded. What colour do you assign to the 6.5 million Thais who voted other than PTP or Dem?

interesting. have the yellows ever won an election?  i dont assign colors to anyone other than myself and i am partial to orange. i guess it would be reds yellows and the minority others. do they give themselves a color? i had never even heard of these minority parties let alone what color they associated with.

[halloween]

11 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

interesting. have the yellows ever won an election?  i dont assign colors to anyone other than myself and i am partial to orange. i guess it would be reds yellows and the minority others. do they give themselves a color? i had never even heard of these minority parties let alone what color they associated with.

If by yellows you mean the Democrat Party, their last PM other than Abhisit was Chuan Leekpai (1997-2001). The colour division is very much a 21st century innovation, more of the divisive nature of the Shinawatras.

[williamgeorgeallen]

20 minutes ago, halloween said:

If by yellows you mean the Democrat Party, their last PM other than Abhisit was Chuan Leekpai (1997-2001). The colour division is very much a 21st century innovation, more of the divisive nature of the Shinawatras.

well thats thais for you always innovating away. quite like the idea behind using colors instead of complicated names. do the minority parties have any colors?

[halloween]

2 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

well thats thais for you always innovating away. quite like the idea behind using colors instead of complicated names. do the minority parties have any colors?

KISS principle applied, along with give them someone to hate (BKK elite). I have no idea if the minor parties have adopted colours, they would have to be careful or they might end up associated to a day of the week or some other arcane concept. Purple should definitely be avoided, unless courting those so inclined.

[billd766]

17 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

no but we have 2 choices in australia and 2 choices in new zealand as well. people actually get to choose in those countries. if half of bangkok is yellow then less than a quarter of thailand must be yellow.  wonder if PAD (yellows) have ever won an election in thailand over the last 80 years. cant find anything on google.

 

In the UK there are a choice of at least 11 political parties plus others.

 

In the Thailand general election of 2011 there were 20 political parties represented.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2011

 

In 2005 there were 7 political parties plus others.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2007

 

Why don't you do some research before posting rubbish?

 

There are 10 political parties in Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Australia

 

and 7 in New Zealand.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_New_Zealand

[williamgeorgeallen]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

In the UK there are a choice of at least 11 political parties plus others.

 

In the Thailand general election of 2011 there were 20 political parties represented.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2011

 

In 2005 there were 7 political parties plus others.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2007

 

Why don't you do some research before posting rubbish?

 

There are 10 political parties in Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Australia

 

and 7 in New Zealand.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_New_Zealand

i was a bit vague on my post. you get to choose between 2 parties that will win.

[tbthailand]

15 hours ago, halloween said:

We both know that you can't support your claim. I suppose it does seem unfair that Yingluk is being prosecuted by an intelligent, competent and informed, and above all, honest woman - the comparison is far from flattering. Hence the need for false claims about her and the NACC, and a few insults for anyone who dares point out the lies.

Maybe you want to point out what false claims I made?  You'll have a hard time with that one.

 

Look, if you like little dictators, that is up to you. I don't.

 

 

 

[halloween]

7 hours ago, tbthailand said:

Maybe you want to point out what false claims I made?  You'll have a hard time with that one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The NACC is not actually an anti-corruption body. It is a blunt instrument in the hands of a military government ... it's purpose is to purge all opposition. 

Ms Supa was junta attack dog in 2007 ........."

 

Those 2 will do.

[tbthailand]

13 hours ago, halloween said:

 

 

"The NACC is not actually an anti-corruption body. It is a blunt instrument in the hands of a military government ... it's purpose is to purge all opposition. 

Ms Supa was junta attack dog in 2007 ........."

 

Those 2 will do.

yawn, ... Try again.

 

 

 

not that you have a chance, .... 

 

 

[billd766]

19 minutes ago, tbthailand said:

yawn, ... Try again.

 

 

 

not that you have a chance, .... 

 

 

 

From Wikipedia though should you not like the quote there are other websites in Thai but I cannot read them. Can you?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_organizations_of_Thailand

 

Overview

Before 1997 cabinet ministries were the primary operating units of the executive branch. However, the need for independent agencies with regulatory powers were needed as a check on corrupt elected officials and civil servants. This and the desire to include the electorate in the political process prompted the framers of the 1997 Constitution of Thailand to create many new "constitutional organs". These agencies are not considered part of the executive, although they carry executive power and members of these agencies are civil servants. They more closely resemble the judicial branch. This is due to their semi-judicial nature, such as decisions which carry and force of law and their impartial nature.

Most of the agencies use the word "commission" in their titles, and are run by a committee of appointed officials. Appointed by the King of Thailand with the advice of a selection committee (made up of legislative and judicial members) or the Senate of Thailand. Very little of the initial structure of these agencies was changed with the promulgation of the 2007 Constitution of Thailand.

 

Agencies

The Election Commission of Thailand (Thai: คณะกรรมการการเลือกตั้ง; rtgs: Khana Kammakan Kan Lueak Tang; Abrv: EC) regulates and certifies elections at every level in the Kingdom of Thailand. It has wide ranging powers to disqualify or call new elections for elections in which they suspect of finding irregularities. The commission has powers of investigation, authority to prosecute crimes involved with elections, and authority over the regulation of political parties.

 

The Office of the Ombudsmen Thailand or Ombudsmen of the National Assembly (Thai: ผู้ตรวจการแผ่นดินของรัฐสภา; rtgs: Phu Truat Kan Phaen Din Khong Ratthasapha) is an agency responsible for the investigation of complaints made by citizens against the government. The ombudsmen themselves are appointed by the "advice" of the senate to the king.

 

The State Audit Commission of Thailand (Thai: คณะกรรมการการตรวจเงินแผ่นดิน; rtgs: Khana Kammakn Kan Truat Ngoen Phaen Din; Abrv: SAC) led by the auditor general, the commission examines the accounts and finances of the government to ensure transparency and to prosecute suspected financial fraud.

 

The National Anti-Corruption Commission of Thailand (Thai: คณะกรรมการป้องกันและปราบปรามการทุจริตแห่งชาติ; rtgs: Khana Kammakan Kan Pong Kan Lae Prap Pram Kan Thutcharit Haeng Chat; Abrv: NACC) is responsible for the ethical conduct, financial or otherwise, of elected politicians and civil servants. The commission has powers of investigation and prosecution.

 

The National Human Rights Commission (Thai: คณะกรรมการสิทธิมนุษยชนแห่งชาติ; rtgs: Khana Kammakn Kan Sitthi Manutsayachon Haeng Chat; Abrv: NHRC) investigates complaints by citizens of human right abuses or the miscarriage of justice contrary to the constitution.

[candide]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

From Wikipedia though should you not like the quote there are other websites in Thai but I cannot read them. Can you?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_organizations_of_Thailand

 

Overview

Before 1997 cabinet ministries were the primary operating units of the executive branch. However, the need for independent agencies with regulatory powers were needed as a check on corrupt elected officials and civil servants. This and the desire to include the electorate in the political process prompted the framers of the 1997 Constitution of Thailand to create many new "constitutional organs". These agencies are not considered part of the executive, although they carry executive power and members of these agencies are civil servants. They more closely resemble the judicial branch. This is due to their semi-judicial nature, such as decisions which carry and force of law and their impartial nature.

Most of the agencies use the word "commission" in their titles, and are run by a committee of appointed officials. Appointed by the King of Thailand with the advice of a selection committee (made up of legislative and judicial members) or the Senate of Thailand. Very little of the initial structure of these agencies was changed with the promulgation of the 2007 Constitution of Thailand.

 

Agencies

The Election Commission of Thailand (Thai: คณะกรรมการการเลือกตั้ง; rtgs: Khana Kammakan Kan Lueak Tang; Abrv: EC) regulates and certifies elections at every level in the Kingdom of Thailand. It has wide ranging powers to disqualify or call new elections for elections in which they suspect of finding irregularities. The commission has powers of investigation, authority to prosecute crimes involved with elections, and authority over the regulation of political parties.

 

The Office of the Ombudsmen Thailand or Ombudsmen of the National Assembly (Thai: ผู้ตรวจการแผ่นดินของรัฐสภา; rtgs: Phu Truat Kan Phaen Din Khong Ratthasapha) is an agency responsible for the investigation of complaints made by citizens against the government. The ombudsmen themselves are appointed by the "advice" of the senate to the king.

 

The State Audit Commission of Thailand (Thai: คณะกรรมการการตรวจเงินแผ่นดิน; rtgs: Khana Kammakn Kan Truat Ngoen Phaen Din; Abrv: SAC) led by the auditor general, the commission examines the accounts and finances of the government to ensure transparency and to prosecute suspected financial fraud.

 

The National Anti-Corruption Commission of Thailand (Thai: คณะกรรมการป้องกันและปราบปรามการทุจริตแห่งชาติ; rtgs: Khana Kammakan Kan Pong Kan Lae Prap Pram Kan Thutcharit Haeng Chat; Abrv: NACC) is responsible for the ethical conduct, financial or otherwise, of elected politicians and civil servants. The commission has powers of investigation and prosecution.

 

The National Human Rights Commission (Thai: คณะกรรมการสิทธิมนุษยชนแห่งชาติ; rtgs: Khana Kammakn Kan Sitthi Manutsayachon Haeng Chat; Abrv: NHRC) investigates complaints by citizens of human right abuses or the miscarriage of justice contrary to the constitution.

An interesting case if reciprocal appointments. The appointment of the members of the so-called independent organisations was proposed or approved by the senate (half of its members being appointed since the 2007 constitution) and possibly a committee composed of members of the other organisations and the judicial. And the appointed senators were appointed by whom? Don't you guess? Members or the independent organisations and the judicial. Essentially a network of people appointing each other. And it's worse now as the junta progressively appoints everybody.

[billd766]

10 hours ago, candide said:

An interesting case if reciprocal appointments. The appointment of the members of the so-called independent organisations was proposed or approved by the senate (half of its members being appointed since the 2007 constitution) and possibly a committee composed of members of the other organisations and the judicial. And the appointed senators were appointed by whom? Don't you guess? Members or the independent organisations and the judicial. Essentially a network of people appointing each other. And it's worse now as the junta progressively appoints everybody.

 

I don't bother to guess as like many people on the forum I quite often guess wrongly.

 

Now if you want to investigate further and find out the composition of the NACC, when it was set up, who was appointed and when then please do so because that will be factual information. You do realise that there have been 2 Thaksin party governments and 3 prime ministers during that time, not to mention a legal Democrat government plus the Army.

 

Of course if you can't be bothered to research it and make a guess at the composition, that is up to you.

 

I don't care either way, because nothing I do or say will affect the way the country is run.

[candide]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I don't bother to guess as like many people on the forum I quite often guess wrongly.

 

Now if you want to investigate further and find out the composition of the NACC, when it was set up, who was appointed and when then please do so because that will be factual information. You do realise that there have been 2 Thaksin party governments and 3 prime ministers during that time, not to mention a legal Democrat government plus the Army.

 

Of course if you can't be bothered to research it and make a guess at the composition, that is up to you.

 

I don't care either way, because nothing I do or say will affect the way the country is run.

You have already provided the wikipedia reference showing how they were appointed. It's just needed to read the wikipedia page on the Thai senate to find out how the appointed senate members have been appointed ( exactly as I mentioned).

Interesting to see you several times providing incomplete information on a topic (not innacurate information though) and then declare that after all you are not interested in this topic anyway. :)

[billd766]

3 hours ago, candide said:

You have already provided the wikipedia reference showing how they were appointed. It's just needed to read the wikipedia page on the Thai senate to find out how the appointed senate members have been appointed ( exactly as I mentioned).

Interesting to see you several times providing incomplete information on a topic (not innacurate information though) and then declare that after all you are not interested in this topic anyway. :)

 

 It is not so much that I am disinterested in the topic it is simply that despite the amount of posts both for and against it here on Thai visa, nothing will arise from it that will affect the way that the country is governed nor will it affect Thai people in any way.

 

All that seems to happen on this and many posts like it is that some posters become so entrenched in their thoughts and ideas that they insult other poster who have a different opinion. It doesn't matter which side is right or wrong.

 

It is very similar to the political situation here. Nobody wants to compromise so it ends up almost in trench warfare with no reconciliation in sight. Meanwhile many posters and indeed in the greater world of Thailand outside TVF people get so bored and fed up they simply ignore the situation.

[tbthailand]

On September 29, 2016 at 8:06 AM, billd766 said:

 

Instead of carping and criticising all the time, do something, anything will do instead of whining all the time.

 

If you don't like the way the PM runs the country, then get off your ass and do something about it.

 

Reality is simple. There is nothing that I, you or any other farang can do to change it, so it really doesn't matter what you, I or any other farang does. So why are YOU so upset about it.

well, I have said before why I am upset about it. My family.  My wife. My kids. My wife's family. 

 

And it is not only the fact that you and I and all the other Farangs cannot do anything about it, ... in fact that is exactly the point, ... under this "government", neither can any of the Thai people do anything about it. 

 

I'd a thought that you would have figured that out by now.... 

[tbthailand]

On September 29, 2016 at 4:09 PM, billd766 said:

It doesn't matter which side is right or wrong.

 

It matters very much... 

[halloween]

On 29/09/2016 at 5:47 AM, candide said:

An interesting case if reciprocal appointments. The appointment of the members of the so-called independent organisations was proposed or approved by the senate (half of its members being appointed since the 2007 constitution) and possibly a committee composed of members of the other organisations and the judicial. And the appointed senators were appointed by whom? Don't you guess? Members or the independent organisations and the judicial. Essentially a network of people appointing each other. And it's worse now as the junta progressively appoints everybody.

Are you saying the members of the NACC should be elected? What's next, elected dogcatchers?

[billd766]

8 hours ago, tbthailand said:

well, I have said before why I am upset about it. My family.  My wife. My kids. My wife's family. 

 

And it is not only the fact that you and I and all the other Farangs cannot do anything about it, ... in fact that is exactly the point, ... under this "government", neither can any of the Thai people do anything about it. 

 

I'd a thought that you would have figured that out by now.... 

 

My Thai family and all its branches are in the same boat and yes I figured it out a long time ago.

 

Under almost any government over the last 20 or 30 years Thai's haven't been able to do much about it either.

 

I have also learned over the years that it is a Thai problem to fix and I also believe that if I were to get deeply and seriously involved, that the government, and by that I mean ANY government elected or not, has the power to declare me unwanted in Thailand and can cancel my visa, deport and blacklist me.

 

If that should happen to me then what will happen to my wife and son? Will I be able to get them into the UK and live a far worse life than we live now, or will they want to stay in Thailand, with the rest of her family.

 

Assuming that they come to they UK and I should die before my wife gets permanent leave to remain? Simple, with a minimum source of income and no FTR  she will be sent back to Thailand. Our son, having dual nationality will be allowed to stay. However with me being dead he will want to come back to Thailand with his Mum.

 

It isn't quite as simple as you make it out to be.

[candide]

7 hours ago, halloween said:

Are you saying the members of the NACC should be elected? What's next, elected dogcatchers?

What I say is that in the previous system, we have a network of people appointing each other, which doesn't guarantee the independence of these so-called organisations (it was not difficult to guess that they are not neutral when looking at their behaviour).

What I also say is that it's getting worse in the new context of the Junta,  as they appoint nearly everybody, included the next appointed senate. Add to it a PM that will probably be chosen thanks to the appointed senate, we will have all powers and counter powers on the same side of the political arena.

[halloween]

6 minutes ago, candide said:

What I say is that in the previous system, we have a network of people appointing each other, which doesn't guarantee the independence of these so-called organisations (it was not difficult to guess that they are not neutral when looking at their behaviour).

What I also say is that it's getting worse in the new context of the Junta,  as they appoint nearly everybody, included the next appointed senate. Add to it a PM that will probably be chosen thanks to the appointed senate, we will have all powers and counter powers on the same side of the political arena.

But does it rate any worse to the US system where many public officials are elected, politics colours every decision made, and those elected have to pander to wealthy and/or influential contributors?

Appointed officials with a working appeals system to ensure the best candidate gets the job, rather than someone's nephew, can work much better than voters electing the guy with the party backing, the glib line and a nice haircut.

[candide]

1 minute ago, halloween said:

But does it rate any worse to the US system where many public officials are elected, politics colours every decision made, and those elected have to pander to wealthy and/or influential contributors?

Appointed officials with a working appeals system to ensure the best candidate gets the job, rather than someone's nephew, can work much better than voters electing the guy with the party backing, the glib line and a nice haircut.

They could be appointed with a different system, or indirectly elected with a 2 third majority, etc...

I am not too familiar with the U.S. system but it doesn't seem to be as obviously biased as in Thailand.

[halloween]

3 minutes ago, candide said:

They could be appointed with a different system, or indirectly elected with a 2 third majority, etc...

I am not too familiar with the U.S. system but it doesn't seem to be as obviously biased as in Thailand.

Or we could let the PM appoint them; Chalerm as head of the NACC.