Outrage after two transgender women refused entry at Hong Kong International Airport

[The Old Bull]

23 hours ago, jacko45k said:

I am not personally persuaded that removal completes the process, perhaps they are simply eunuchs.

If I have my dog fixed, should I now start referring to it as she and a bitch?

 

I am sure there is more to this tale than we are seeing here.  Some immigration official should of course be suspicious of 2 'women' who are carrying men's passports, as much as 2 burly men dressed in skirts and wigs. That is before we get to purpose of visit......

 

Hong Kong would not be the only place to give them grief.

Yes but at least I would not have to worry about dropping the soap in the shower if they were fixed.

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, pegman said:

Unlike your country, as far as I know there are no laws concerning the washrooms they may use. 

Dude, you really think that's the only issue related to human rights for transgender people? 

[cncltd1973]

I knew after reading the headline, the lines would be drawn in the replies - right across the generation gap / education gap / religion gap.

Empathy can't be understood in biological terms, that's where humanity comes. If you don't understand the decision process of someone undergoing gender reassignment, then  count yourself lucky that you don't need to understand, and observe Solomon's proverb: "even a fool that shuts his lips is counted among the wise".

[Jingthing]

24 minutes ago, cncltd1973 said:

I knew after reading the headline, the lines would be drawn in the replies - right across the generation gap / education gap / religion gap.

Empathy can't be understood in biological terms, that's where humanity comes. If you don't understand the decision process of someone undergoing gender reassignment, then  count yourself lucky that you don't need to understand, and observe Solomon's proverb: "even a fool that shuts his lips is counted among the wise".

Yeah, it's about the capability (and/or willingness) of imagining yourself in other's shoes. Even though I am not a transgendered person, I can imagine the challenges of that. A huge part of the challenges are about irrational negative societal perceptions. It's very similar to homophobia in that sense. 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Jingthing

[ClutchClark]

54 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah, it's about the capability (and/or willingness) of imagining yourself in other's shoes. Even though I am not a transgendered person, I can imagine the challenges of that. A huge part of the challenges are about irrational negative societal perceptions. It's very similar to homophobia in that sense. 

 

Jing,

having empathy is a great human trait so I do respect what you are saying.

But what about the empathy for all the people who don't want someones sexuality thrown in their face and being accused of hatred if they make any complaint? 

 

This entire ladyboy/transgender movement is basically a recent social experiment made possible only because of modern medical practice of hormone therapy and recent surgical technique.

 

Have the people who choose this form of self-expression shown empathy towards others in the way you describe? Not really. They have pushed their agenda out there with the same aggressive attitude as the ladyboys on Lower Suk who grab every guys arm and and crotch Who walks down the sidewalk.

 

where is this transgender community and their supporters empathy for all the women who are uncomfortable with a mans pecker in the ladies bathroom ? What about their feelings of being unsafe ? 

 

This group of biologically assigned women should receive empathy also, right? 

Thanks

 

 

[Donutz]

The report does not tell if the two (transgender) women met all other entry criteria. I would asume so or else it would not be worth reporting. But it would be nice to see some sort of confirmation and background info. Did the two have sufficient cash (financial means) to support the trip for the duration of their intended stay? Was there a hotel booked (though no biggy, I never book a hotel so absence of this should really only mean something in the overall picture) , do the two have a positive travel history? Etc.    Clearly their changed gender played atleast some role or else they would not have been given such a silly 'I confirm I had a sex operation'  form. It would be absolutely unacceptable if their gender(change) was any reason at all to deny them entry.

 

 Imagen arriving from the west in TH and then at the border be told "you are a male, traveling alone, you might be here to visit prostitues, which is illegal and therefor we will deny you entry" , just as it's uncalled for that Asian girls are being rejected at borders (such as Singapore and Malaysia) only on the ground of them being female and thus perhaps there for illegal employement. You need some objective grounds to base such suspicion on such as near empty wallet or other red flags like that. 

 

Some members here seem to have very little respect for transgenders, as it's a choice, a lifestyle, something you might just suddenly decide to think is funny  to do. It can't be that difficult to imagen that the brain and body's perceived gender do not always match? Since brian surgery is not an option (never mind the moral aspects if even we could), a gender change is only fair. As would be changing the gender in the passport after surgergy to properly indicate that this person is now a (wo)man. Speaking of which, what did the two indicate on the immigration card? They may rightfully feel like women but as long as there silly passport identifies them as men they would be forced to identify themselves as such on legal forms. 

 

Even worse are the 'suits those two transgenders well,  katoeys touching me while I'm parading down the boulevard in Pattaya". Err... how can you hold one individual responsible for the actions of an other?? Any evidence that these two have been very rude and selfish towards other people and therefor one could see the irony or karma in them being confronted with rude immigration staff?  I think not.   Or would those posters be cheering  "How right you are, serves me well!' at the border if an immigration officer told them "Go back to where you came from farang, I've seen the likes of you farang scammming and touching our women, begone!" . Or would you instead argue that youare not a criminal, planning nothing illegal, that you meet the entry criteria (sufficient funds, positive travel history) and that you should be given some god damn respect unless evidence shows you are not worthy of such. 

 

 

[retoohs]

first and most importantly these are people and should be treated accordingly. It's like the race thing. When I have to fill out a form that asks what race I am I put "human race"

[Thechook]

On 9/27/2016 at 6:06 PM, Jingthing said:

Transgender women, actually. 

Cutting the horn off a rhino doesn't make it a hippo.  It's still what it is.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, Thechook said:

Cutting the horn off a rhino doesn't make it a hippo.

Removing tusks on an African bull Elephant doesn't work either, despite females lacking them :)

[lust]

We don't get pick to what we are! Play the cards that are dealt to you..

[teatree]

On 27/09/2016 at 4:12 PM, Jingthing said:

Possibly but that's not what the news story said. This would be a non-story if it was about what you said. 

 

It is a non story.   They were refused entry because immigration were not satisfied they had legitimate reasons to travel to HK i.e. they thought they were prostitutes.  This happens to Thai women who fit a certain profile so I don't see why it shouldn't apply to transgender women.

 

The two involved are just using their high ranking in the Oppression Olympics to spur social justice warriors into outrage.

 

Nothing to see here.

[teatree]

On 28/09/2016 at 1:35 PM, greenchair said:

...
Though I can accept the personal choice of lifestyle to be gay or Transgender. The statistics are absolutely overwhelming that almost all of them were sexually abused in some way before the age of 15.
...

 

Not sure if it is sexual abuse, but a large number of trans people become that way through psychological trauma.

 

There is an ex trans female - born a man, changed to a woman, went back to being a man - who is an activist in promoting an understanding of the psychology behind trans people.  In his own case, he said that his grandmother used to dress him up as a girl when she babysat.  When he was dressed as a girl he felt special and wanted.  This is what caused him to want to transition.  It was only many years later that he analyzed himself that he realized that it was the trauma caused by his grandmother that made him transgender.

 

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

 

A lot of these people have very serious mental issues, many need psychological help, not help in chopping bits off of their bodies, which seems to be the automatic response from the SJW brigade.

[manarak]

19 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

Jing,

having empathy is a great human trait so I do respect what you are saying.

But what about the empathy for all the people who don't want someones sexuality thrown in their face and being accused of hatred if they make any complaint? 

 

This entire ladyboy/transgender movement is basically a recent social experiment made possible only because of modern medical practice of hormone therapy and recent surgical technique.

 

Have the people who choose this form of self-expression shown empathy towards others in the way you describe? Not really. They have pushed their agenda out there with the same aggressive attitude as the ladyboys on Lower Suk who grab every guys arm and and crotch Who walks down the sidewalk.

 

where is this transgender community and their supporters empathy for all the women who are uncomfortable with a mans pecker in the ladies bathroom ? What about their feelings of being unsafe ? 

 

This group of biologically assigned women should receive empathy also, right? 

Thanks

 

I know you are not a PC apologist, so my comment should wake you up a little.

 

I don't consider it a right to not be offended. People have to accept the diversity of persons as they are and should not take any repressive action just because they feel offended because someone is looking "obviously gay" or "obviously transgender" and it rattles their sense of morality (bigotry).

 

Ladyboys have always existed, some men are born with traits that make them look androgynous or even passing as female naturally, without any medicines or surgery. The latter only made that lifestyle more accessible.

Calling it a "form of self-expression" is also denying their right to a different gender identity, and the comparison with ladyboy prostitutes is telling about where you mainly encounter them.

For every ladyboy prostitute there are many more polite ladyboys working normal jobs around the country.

I know one who is an internet software developer, and another one who is a nurse in a hospital.

 

I'm not aware of it regulations exist for accessing the ladies' bathrooms in terms of "passability" of transgenders using them, but I have the strong hunch that the women there are made feeling uncomfortable more by their own pejudice that makes them go "eeeeeek" than by the presence of "passable" transgenders in the bathroom. Ladies don't use pissoirs allowing bathroom users to compare the site of their genitals...

 

 

I guess what I wanted to say is that "feeling offended" is not a good reason at all for being intolerant.

The logic behind it is the same as for "political correctness" - to impose rules on others as to avoid issues that "could offend" "some people" - I consider that dangerous and John Cleese explained it in an excellent video:

 

 

[ClutchClark]

6 hours ago, manarak said:

 

I know you are not a PC apologist, so my comment should wake you up a little.

 

I don't consider it a right to not be offended. People have to accept the diversity of persons as they are and should not take any repressive action just because they feel offended because someone is looking "obviously gay" or "obviously transgender" and it rattles their sense of morality (bigotry).

 

Ladyboys have always existed, some men are born with traits that make them look androgynous or even passing as female naturally, without any medicines or surgery. The latter only made that lifestyle more accessible.

Calling it a "form of self-expression" is also denying their right to a different gender identity, and the comparison with ladyboy prostitutes is telling about where you mainly encounter them.

For every ladyboy prostitute there are many more polite ladyboys working normal jobs around the country.

I know one who is an internet software developer, and another one who is a nurse in a hospital.

 

I'm not aware of it regulations exist for accessing the ladies' bathrooms in terms of "passability" of transgenders using them, but I have the strong hunch that the women there are made feeling uncomfortable more by their own pejudice that makes them go "eeeeeek" than by the presence of "passable" transgenders in the bathroom. Ladies don't use pissoirs allowing bathroom users to compare the site of their genitals...

 

 

I guess what I wanted to say is that "feeling offended" is not a good reason at all for being intolerant.

The logic behind it is the same as for "political correctness" - to impose rules on others as to avoid issues that "could offend" "some people" - I consider that dangerous and John Cleese explained it in an excellent video:

 

 

 

I read your post but don't see where you responded about having any concern or empathy for biological women...except to discredit and marginalize them.

 

[Jingthing]

12 hours ago, teatree said:

 

Not sure if it is sexual abuse, but a large number of trans people become that way through psychological trauma.

 

There is an ex trans female - born a man, changed to a woman, went back to being a man - who is an activist in promoting an understanding of the psychology behind trans people.  In his own case, he said that his grandmother used to dress him up as a girl when she babysat.  When he was dressed as a girl he felt special and wanted.  This is what caused him to want to transition.  It was only many years later that he analyzed himself that he realized that it was the trauma caused by his grandmother that made him transgender.

 

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

 

A lot of these people have very serious mental issues, many need psychological help, not help in chopping bits off of their bodies, which seems to be the automatic response from the SJW brigade.

What a load of crapola.

Therer is not pressure to chop it off.

Where do you get such moronic ideas?

Transitioning is a totally INDIVIDUAL process and choice. There are many ways to transition. Chopping it off is certainly not required and never chopping it off is quite common. 

To add, all humans experience stress and trauma. As far as sexual minorities, a lot of the stress and trauma they experience is due to non-accepting SOCIETIES and bigoted ignorant people, including sadly often close family.

 

Edited September 30, 2016 by Jingthing

[evadgib]

The ol' 'bogotted and ignorant' malarky is an oft-peddled responce intended to subdue or surpress any view failing to fall in with a resounding 'YES' to whatever crack-pot cause they are defending. Sadly and all to often in today's politically correct society it usually achieves its aim when opposition is stifled, aided and abetet by biased regulation or censorship.

 

Not everyone with opposing views to this particular subject is 'Alf Garnett'!

[baboon]

On 30/09/2016 at 9:08 AM, teatree said:

 

It is a non story.   They were refused entry because immigration were not satisfied they had legitimate reasons to travel to HK i.e. they thought they were prostitutes.  This happens to Thai women who fit a certain profile so I don't see why it shouldn't apply to transgender women.

 

The two involved are just using their high ranking in the Oppression Olympics to spur social justice warriors into outrage.

 

Nothing to see here.

Hear hear. Just before I read your post I was scratching my head and thinking 'Christ, 6 pages on such an insignificant subject while wars, famine and disease scourge the planet'. Let's get some proportion here...

[manarak]

17 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

I read your post but don't see where you responded about having any concern or empathy for biological women...except to discredit and marginalize them.

 

I don't understand how I marginalized women in my above post, or how I "discredited" them?

Sure I am concerned about the well-being of biological women. I'm just saying that their well-being isn't significantly hampered by transgenders and that I don't accept the "they offend my feelings" argumentation.

[ClutchClark]

On September 30, 2016 at 11:45 PM, manarak said:

 

I don't understand how I marginalized women in my above post, or how I "discredited" them?

Sure I am concerned about the well-being of biological women. I'm just saying that their well-being isn't significantly hampered by transgenders and that I don't accept the "they offend my feelings" argumentation.

 

Most biological women have no desire to see a mans "manhood" in the Ladies bathroom.

 

Besides, how can you possibly be certain men who we used to cal "perverts" won't go into the Ladies/Girls bathroom for sexual gratification and claim they now identify as transgender? 

 

[Old Croc]

Many countries still don't have legislation nor policy to decide how to deal with people whose passport states them to be one gender, and their arrival card, and appearance, indicates the other gender. You can't blame any country's airport officials from investigating such an anomaly. 

It seems HK wanted them to sign some sort of form declaring they had undergone gender reassignment surgery. They refused to do this and their path from there led back onto the return flight.

Perhaps the blame lies with countries who insist that the stated gender on the passport, must be that at birth. Some enlightened counties allow this detail to be changed to accurately indicate current status.