MSG and related health problems

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, Rob13 said:

2 hours ago, Rob13 said:

 

Silly statement. There are thousands of individual personal experiences similar to the OP's, including myself.  Too much of the stuff causes problems for some people.

Silly statement. There are thousands of individual personal experiences similar to the OP's, including myself.  Too much of the stuff causes problems for some people.

It is not a "silly statement" science is based on observations and experimentation. While your "feelings" might seem like a scientific method they are most certainly not. The science is clear on this topic and while some people do have symptoms when eating foods with MSG (or that they think have MSG in them), experimentation (with control groups) has shown that MSG is harmless. Junk science is very prevalent in todays world and it is an injustice to actual scientific methods and repeatable, peer reviewed results.

 

These next couple of sentences are off the topic of MSG but iare applicable to the topic of junk science, and will make the consumers and believers of junk science heads explode (please try to calm yourselves before replying).

 

One of the other junk science claims is that BPA in plastics causes all sorts of human disorders. NONE of the claims leveled at BPA have ever been validated by a repeatable, peer reviewed, scientific study, None, not a single one. The study Ryan et al. 2009 comprehensively debunked these claims but I guess the makers of "BPA free" plastic bottles need to keep these false myths going to increase sales. The following article lays out the issues with the science very clearly http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/114/1/1.full (there is also a link to Ryan et al 2009 in the Oxford Journal link if you are having trouble sleeping tonight).

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, Fithman said:

The American FDA  have this to say about MSG ..........

 

http://www.fda.gov/Food/IngredientsPackagingLabeling/FoodAdditivesIngredients/ucm328728.htm

An excellent post confirming my contention that the symptoms to MSG are basically Psychosomatic (aka "in your head").  If you were fed a dish that did not contain MSG but you were told that the dish contained MSG you would have symptoms that you associate with eating MSG.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Fithman said:

 

Can you prove that ?  if so where can the reputable, scientific, peer reviewed studies be found ?

 

All the "evidence" is anecdotal. 

And "anecdotal evidence" unfortunately for believers in the junk science is not "scientific evidence", and MSG has been studied fairly extensively.

 

[xylophone]

On 10/10/2016 at 8:35 AM, Sheryl said:

Response to MSG is both individual (some people are very sensitive, some a little, some not at all) and dose-related.

 

The amounts of MSG occurred naturally are minor compared to what gets piled into many dishes here.

 

Clip from an article from the Mayo clinic………..”Researchers acknowledge, though, that a small percentage of people may have short-term reactions to MSG”.

 

I agree with Sheryl on this and to be honest this subject has been the cause of many other threads regarding MSG and how it affects some people.

 

It is a naturally occurring substance and we eat a lot of it in our everyday lives, but when someone piles in half a ladleful (that was my experience) into my meal I do get some symptoms which are a bit like the flu with a headache, thirst, dry throat and generally feeling a little unwell.

 

I'm not on here to say that MSG is good or bad for you, but what I am advocating is that some people are susceptible to large doses of the stuff, but that doesn't mean it's poisonous. I know many people who are susceptible to strong coffee or too many cups during the day, and there are others who have a reaction to gluten and so on.

 

I think it fair to say that there are some everyday things which affect some folk and not others, and this especially when taken in large doses, so what's there to argue about?

 

[Fithman]

3 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Clip from an article from the Mayo clinic………..”Researchers acknowledge, though, that a small percentage of people may have short-term reactions to MSG”

 

You forgot to include this clip from the Mayo Clinic article 

 

"However, researchers have found no definitive evidence of a link between MSG and these symptoms."

[xylophone]

15 minutes ago, Fithman said:

 

You forgot to include this clip from the Mayo Clinic article 

 

"However, researchers have found no definitive evidence of a link between MSG and these symptoms."

 

OK they said........... "However, researchers have found no definitive evidence of a link between MSG and these symptoms. Researchers acknowledge, though, that a small percentage of people may have short-term reactions to MSG. Symptoms are usually mild and don't require treatment. The only way to prevent a reaction is to avoid foods containing MSG”.

 

So this is saying that the researchers have acknowledged that a small percentage of people may have short-term reactions to MSG.

If Mayo Clinic researchers have acknowledged that a small percentage of people may have some reactions, then I fall into that category, as do others here who have also experienced some reactions.......esp to LARGE doses.

[Ahab]

5 hours ago, xylophone said:

 

OK they said........... "However, researchers have found no definitive evidence of a link between MSG and these symptoms. Researchers acknowledge, though, that a small percentage of people may have short-term reactions to MSG. Symptoms are usually mild and don't require treatment. The only way to prevent a reaction is to avoid foods containing MSG”.

 

 

 

So this is saying that the researchers have acknowledged that a small percentage of people may have short-term reactions to MSG.

 

If Mayo Clinic researchers have acknowledged that a small percentage of people may have some reactions, then I fall into that category, as do others here who have also experienced some reactions.......esp to LARGE doses.

A small percentage of people may have symptoms, is it possible that these symptoms (at least in some of this already small percentage of people) are possibly psychosomatic reactions? I don't know but there are people on this forum that have suggested if you eat food with MSG in it you eventually get cancer.   I think I am much closer to reality in believing that for most people MSG has no effects AND it tastes good (to me anyway) than those who believe that it will kill you. Many things will kill you, MSG is not one of them.

 

[xylophone]

11 hours ago, Ahab said:

A small percentage of people may have symptoms, is it possible that these symptoms (at least in some of this already small percentage of people) are possibly psychosomatic reactions? I don't know but there are people on this forum that have suggested if you eat food with MSG in it you eventually get cancer.   I think I am much closer to reality in believing that for most people MSG has no effects AND it tastes good (to me anyway) than those who believe that it will kill you. Many things will kill you, MSG is not one of them.

 

 

Well we are in agreement for the most part then..........I am affected by LARGE doses of it however have no problems when I cook my own Thai food which consists of the usual suspects with regards to MSG (seasoning sauce, oyster sauce, soy sauce etc) and I have eaten in Thai restaurants with no problems. The same with cheeses and other foods which contain it naturally.

 

When I checked out the restaurant kitchen in the place where I repeatedly got my symptoms (my friends insisted on taking me there) I actually saw the cook put half a large ladle full of msg into my dish and it caused me some grief (again)!!! Have never been back.

 

I don't believe it causes cancer or the like and I also believe that it is safe, but feed me large doses of it and I am affected.........as for tasting good, then eat a spoonful and see what it is like!! It enhances the flavour of food but don't know that it, in itself, tastes good!!

 

 

[Ahab]

Some people replying to this topic have stated that the restaurants have put "ladles full or the stuff" in a dish. As someone who regularly uses MSG and have seen Thai people cooking and using MSG this sounds like an exaggeration. The amount that I have seen used amounts to a small pinch for a large pot of soup or stirfry (maybe a quarter of a teaspoon), not more than normal amounts of salt that would be normally used to season a similar sized dish (in my experience much, much less).

[xylophone]

8 hours ago, Ahab said:

Some people replying to this topic have stated that the restaurants have put "ladles full or the stuff" in a dish. As someone who regularly uses MSG and have seen Thai people cooking and using MSG this sounds like an exaggeration. The amount that I have seen used amounts to a small pinch for a large pot of soup or stirfry (maybe a quarter of a teaspoon), not more than normal amounts of salt that would be normally used to season a similar sized dish (in my experience much, much less).

 

Obviously referring to me......no problem with this, however I actually saw the cook reach over to a large aluminium dish suspended from a wall to the right hand side of the gas rings, dip his ladle into a large amount of MSG and scoop some out and pour it into the food he was cooking.

 

Now I'm not 100% sure that it was "half a ladle full", but I am very sure that it was a large amount and would certainly constitute two or three desert spoons full. As for a small pinch, absolutely no way with this cook and I stand by that. 

 

[Ahab]

Just now, xylophone said:

 

Obviously referring to me......no problem with this, however I actually saw the cook reach over to a large aluminium dish suspended from a wall to the right hand side of the gas rings, dip his ladle into a large amount of MSG and scoop some out and pour it into the food he was cooking.

 

Now I'm not 100% sure that it was "half a ladle full", but I am very sure that it was a large amount and would certainly constitute two or three desert spoons full. As for a small pinch, absolutely no way with this cook and I stand by that. 

 

That is definitely more that I have ever seen used, and probably more than I personally would like to eat in any given dish.

 

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, xylophone said:

 

Obviously referring to me......no problem with this, however I actually saw the cook reach over to a large aluminium dish suspended from a wall to the right hand side of the gas rings, dip his ladle into a large amount of MSG and scoop some out and pour it into the food he was cooking.

 

Now I'm not 100% sure that it was "half a ladle full", but I am very sure that it was a large amount and would certainly constitute two or three desert spoons full. As for a small pinch, absolutely no way with this cook and I stand by that. 

 

It may have referring to you, I actually  did not check before posting. I have no reason to not believe you and agree that even one dessert spoon full is more than I would use even in a large pot of soup.

[impulse]

Tens, perhaps hundreds of billions of dollars each year of packaged foods would be unmarketable without the addition of MSG to fool our taste buds.

 

So, just like the decades of science denying that smoking is addictive, it's difficult for me to trust the published science.  Like smoking, big business is probably pumping $$ billions into pseudo science to prove that their product isn't to blame for our symptoms.  Fortunately, unlike smoking, the effects of MSG seem to be pretty transient and not killing anyone.

 

I go with my own reaction.  If I have a meal laced with a lot of MSG, I get so cranky and tired that I'd fight for a nap.  And every time I feel like that, I can look back on my day and I've had a meal in a suspicious place.

[flagator96]

On 10/11/2016 at 9:05 PM, Fithman said:

 

Are you claiming that MSG causes 'cancer'?  If so then produce the evidence.

Here are two papers from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciencea in the USA discussing the connection between Glutamate and cancer.

 

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/11/5947.full

 

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/11/6372.abstract

[Sheryl]

Actually that is NOT what they are discussing, nor does anything in those papers pertain to the oral consumption of MSG.

[jpinx]

On 14/10/2016 at 10:25 AM, impulse said:

Tens, perhaps hundreds of billions of dollars each year of packaged foods would be unmarketable without the addition of MSG to fool our taste buds.

 

So, just like the decades of science denying that smoking is addictive, it's difficult for me to trust the published science.  Like smoking, big business is probably pumping $$ billions into pseudo science to prove that their product isn't to blame for our symptoms.  Fortunately, unlike smoking, the effects of MSG seem to be pretty transient and not killing anyone.

 

I go with my own reaction.  If I have a meal laced with a lot of MSG, I get so cranky and tired that I'd fight for a nap.  And every time I feel like that, I can look back on my day and I've had a meal in a suspicious place.

I've "trained" several cooking ladies that I use frequently and they are very happy to not put MSG or salt in what they cook for me.  There is no real difference in taste - always yummy.  :) 

[flagator96]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Actually that is NOT what they are discussing, nor does anything in those papers pertain to the oral consumption of MSG.

Thanks for the comment.

 

The topic is : " MSG, and related health problems". In most people's minds cancer is a health problem. Moreover, the topic of cancer and MSG was clearly discussed in the thread already.

 

The papers clearly discuss a boosting effect of glutamate on cancer cells. especially in the brain, and possibly in other organs. The main components of MSG are sodium and glutamate.

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by flagator96

[partington]

1 hour ago, flagator96 said:

Thanks for the comment.

 

The topic is : " MSG, and related health problems". In most people's minds cancer is a health problem. Moreover, the topic of cancer and MSG was clearly discussed in the thread already.

 

The papers clearly discuss a boosting effect of glutamate on cancer cells. especially in the brain, and possibly in other organs. The main components of MSG are sodium and glutamate.

 

The papers discuss the effect of blocking glutamate receptors using glutamate antagonists.  This does not imply that eating glutamate affects cancer cell growth. Glutamate is one of the approximately 20 amino acids that every cell in the body makes every day, is present at all times in the blood of every human being at about 50-100 micromolar, and is made in nerve cells and secreted all the time as part of natural signalling.

 

There is no suggestion here at all that eating glutamate has any effect above the effect of the glutamate already present in your body at all times. The papers present the effects of blocking natural signalling that is already happening whether you eat extra glutamate or not.

 

Furthermore the effects of glutamate on cancer cells are known to occur because the cancer cells themselves (as a result of the mutations which cause them to be cancerous) make abnormally large numbers of glutamate receptors, and secrete abnormal amounts of glutamate. The cancer cells are more sensitive to the normal of amount of glutamate in the blood therefore because the disease causes them to make more of the receptor that responds to glutamate. This is why glutamate antagonists (drugs that block glutamate receptors from working) may be effective on cancer cells -not because of dietary glutamate but because these cells have abnormal glutamate signalling.

 

The effects of glutamate in the brain (on cancer or anything else) are well-known to be completely unaffected by dietary glutamate: the brain is protected by a double membrane layer called the blood-brain barrier that completely blocks any blood glutamate getting into the brain.  It has to : if it didn't your brain simply wouldn't work. 

 

This is how the glutamate concentration in the extracellular fluid of the brain is kept at around 2 micromolar, even though the concentration in the blood is 50-100 micromolar, and is why dietary glutamate can have no effect on the brain!

 

EDIT: By the way, inside some brain cells (because glutamate is made inside them) the concentration of glutamate can be 10,000 micromolar - a concentration that could not ever be achieved in the blood even if you dined exclusively on kilograms of pure MSG.

Edited February 4, 2017 by partington

[flagator96]

7 hours ago, partington said:

The papers discuss the effect of blocking glutamate receptors using glutamate antagonists.  This does not imply that eating glutamate affects cancer cell growth. Glutamate is one of the approximately 20 amino acids that every cell in the body makes every day, is present at all times in the blood of every human being at about 50-100 micromolar, and is made in nerve cells and secreted all the time as part of natural signalling.

 

There is no suggestion here at all that eating glutamate has any effect above the effect of the glutamate already present in your body at all times. The papers present the effects of blocking natural signalling that is already happening whether you eat extra glutamate or not.

 

Furthermore the effects of glutamate on cancer cells are known to occur because the cancer cells themselves (as a result of the mutations which cause them to be cancerous) make abnormally large numbers of glutamate receptors, and secrete abnormal amounts of glutamate. The cancer cells are more sensitive to the normal of amount of glutamate in the blood therefore because the disease causes them to make more of the receptor that responds to glutamate. This is why glutamate antagonists (drugs that block glutamate receptors from working) may be effective on cancer cells -not because of dietary glutamate but because these cells have abnormal glutamate signalling.

 

The effects of glutamate in the brain (on cancer or anything else) are well-known to be completely unaffected by dietary glutamate: the brain is protected by a double membrane layer called the blood-brain barrier that completely blocks any blood glutamate getting into the brain.  It has to : if it didn't your brain simply wouldn't work. 

 

This is how the glutamate concentration in the extracellular fluid of the brain is kept at around 2 micromolar, even though the concentration in the blood is 50-100 micromolar, and is why dietary glutamate can have no effect on the brain!

 

EDIT: By the way, inside some brain cells (because glutamate is made inside them) the concentration of glutamate can be 10,000 micromolar - a concentration that could not ever be achieved in the blood even if you dined exclusively on kilograms of pure MSG.

Thank you for commenting, and posting a thorough response.

 

I agree with many of your points as well as disagree with several as well.

 

There is plenty of science that refutes a good number of your points.

 

Now, I am not going to go into great length here to try to respond. Brain signaling, neuro-receptor and neurotransmitter physiology as well as their effects on organs and tissues, is an exceedingly complex subject for this venue.

 

I do stand by my original comments though. I would urge all of those who are concerned about their health to do their own research about the  very real effects of MSG and excess glutamate on health.

[manarak]

I have no doubt that MSG can cause some minor adverse effects for some people, yet the manner how this gets discussed by some is totally over the top.

If I replaced MSG by "radioactive substance" in some posts, their tone would be considered normal.

 

The propension of many to believe in fake science and conspiration theories is worrying.

[flagator96]

11 minutes ago, manarak said:

I have no doubt that MSG can cause some minor adverse effects for some people, yet the manner how this gets discussed by some is totally over the top.

If I replaced MSG by "radioactive substance" in some posts, their tone would be considered normal.

 

The propension of many to believe in fake science and conspiration theories is worrying.

Fake science is everywhere. It can be found alive and well, particularly when there are profits to be protected and when it is necessary to keep clueless people drinking the proverbial "Kool aid" .

Edited February 4, 2017 by flagator96

[xylophone]

12 hours ago, manarak said:

I have no doubt that MSG can cause some minor adverse effects for some people,

Revisiting something I wrote on this thread a few months ago and I will reiterate the main point, for me anyway, and that is that large doses of MSG affect me, but then again it's the same with coffee and with chocolate (which I love) if I eat them in large amounts...........so some folk have a reaction to it, most don't, surely it's that simple?

 

I don't see any research anywhere as regards MSG causing cancer, and I also have great respect for the information and views posted by "Partington".

 

Clip from an article from the Mayo clinic………..”Researchers acknowledge, though, that a small percentage of people may have short-term reactions to MSG”.

 

 

[Sheryl]

12 hours ago, flagator96 said:

..... I would urge all of those who are concerned about their health to do their own research about the  very real effects of MSG and excess glutamate on health.

 

And I would urge them to be wary of quack websites and to stick to real science, real studies.

 

Which do not support a link to cancer or anything of the sort.

 

That said, it does disagree with some people, and even for those who tolerate it OK, it is an unnecessary additive loaded with sodium and for that reason alone better to minimize consumption to the extent practical.

[flagator96]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

...And I would urge them to be wary of quack websites and to stick to real science, real studies.

 

 

People have the right to think freely and seek information to address their concerns as they see fit, free of coercion and biased views. People have the right to examine different view points and arrive at their own conclusions.

 

So called "real science" and "real studies" are increasingly under fire because their are fraught with conflicts of interest, cherry picking of the data, and hiding data all together, all in the name of protecting profits.