Medical Malpractice in Thailand

[al007]

I might have a claim against a hospital,

 

I am looking for anyone who might have had this experience,

 

Does anyone know sensibly priced lawyers who might act on this

 

I wonder who are the legal firms who protect the big hospitals

 

I was once doing a business deal and had an opposing lawyer who was so bad, so outrageous, and awful awful, well that was from my side, after that deal was done I used this lawyer many many times people hated him, thats what I am looking for, the underfed  and hungry rotweiler , but the you have to be careful they do not eat you too

 

Any input greatly appreciated, I will reveal more but later, unless of course when I win I am bound to secrecy ! !

[cumgranosalum]

I have written time and again warning people of the perils of getting medical treatment in Thailand.

Of course most procedures are carried out to the satisfaction of the patient (customer) but even that doesn't mean that they were the correct or most appropriate treatment - laypeople are at the mercy of the medical industry in Thailand.

The rigid hierarchical structure in Thai's hospitals means it is almost impossible to criticise a doctors's decision of methods and if you do you'll find they close ranks, doors and everything to obstruct progress of any complaint.

There is in reality very little hard legislation to help you and furthermore as there is little or no monitoring of doctors, it can prove very difficult to show what they have been doing - thai hospitals are very good a losing documents too.

 

I'm sorry i can't recommend a lawyer - I hope someone can - but I would get ready for a VERY long and arduous fight to get any form of redress - eve if you do prove your case, any payout in Thailand is likely to be very small.

[al007]

8 hours ago, cumgranosalum said:

I have written time and again warning people of the perils of getting medical treatment in Thailand.

Of course most procedures are carried out to the satisfaction of the patient (customer) but even that doesn't mean that they were the correct or most appropriate treatment - laypeople are at the mercy of the medical industry in Thailand.

The rigid hierarchical structure in Thai's hospitals means it is almost impossible to criticise a doctors's decision of methods and if you do you'll find they close ranks, doors and everything to obstruct progress of any complaint.

There is in reality very little hard legislation to help you and furthermore as there is little or no monitoring of doctors, it can prove very difficult to show what they have been doing - thai hospitals are very good a losing documents too.

 

I'm sorry i can't recommend a lawyer - I hope someone can - but I would get ready for a VERY long and arduous fight to get any form of redress - eve if you do prove your case, any payout in Thailand is likely to be very small.

Thank you for your input, many of your comments are valid

 

A couple of observations, in the USA malpractice insurance is prohibitively high, why because there are so many cases for malpractice, so one could conclude the risks in the USA are unacceptable of going to hospitals there

 

I agree with your comments on closing ranks but that is not a reason to give up, I am particularly well documented and have copies of most of my files just in case they loose them

 

In the last week in Bangkok I believe I have visited many very competent doctors

 

To many people there is probably no choice except Thailand, stay positive, it is not all bad, I promise you that

[al007]

I need to broaden my search, does anyone know a competent litigation, or a young on the way up aggressive lawyer

[cumgranosalum]

USA has a culture of litigation AND a dreadful healthcare system. In Europe rather than litigate, they legislate, which to some extent keeps the cost of healthcare to more reasonable levels and doctors aren't so afraid of actually practicing medicine.

 

As for Thailand you have to contend with a culture of graft nepotism and corruption .... I'd prepare for a long haul.........some famous cases have taken 10 to 16 years....

[lopburi3]

14 hours ago, al007 said:

I need to broaden my search, does anyone know a competent litigation, or a young on the way up aggressive lawyer

Perhaps best to focus on the current issues as you are not likely to obtain legal closure in our lifetime in a courtroom and expect about the best result would be more treatment from those you consider incompetent.  Believe a negative view will only serve to make your life negative.  You have important decisions to make and this path is likely to just muddy the water.  Life is a mixed bag and probably best to keep that glass half full outlook when traveling it.  

[cumgranosalum]

I think the most notable thing so far is the lack of information on a lawyer.

I think you SHOULD pursue this - but you need to be aware of what an uphill climb it could be - costs could be high and time will be something you need a lot of; dogged determination will help.

 

"There are no specific laws that deal with medical malpractice in Thailand" - you might benefit from reading this article ...

Medical Malpractice in Thailand

 

Many legal cases in Thailand are dropped before they get anywhere because of the difficulties in pursuing them - those in high places know this and rely on it to get away with stuff that in the west would see them at worst locked up or at least paying out huge fines or compensation.

The old Sakdina class system still exists in many ways - including the idea that the evidence, opinions and statements of those of a higher caste still carry more weight than that of the more humble ranks, especially a foreigner.

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[Sheryl]

I know of a number of cases where  people have been successful in getting compensation from private hospital (also one with a govt facility that I was directly involved with -- not paid compensation but all costs of care related to the complication -- including surgery -- were completely waived.)

 

Some of these entailed a lawyer and some did not. Settlement was out of court. Private hospitals do care about their reputations and thus have an incentive to want to avoid the bad publicity that a court case would entail.

 

Indeed one does not want to get bogged in a long court case if it can be avoided. But it often can through negotiated out of coury settlement.

 

However, OP the type of lawyer you describe is not common in Thai culture nor IMO would they be very effective. What you need is an astute lawyer with good negotiating skills.

 

 

[cumgranosalum]

"I know of a number of cases where  people have been successful in getting compensation from private hospital (also one with a govt facility that I was directly involved with -- not paid compensation but all costs of care related to the complication -- including surgery -- were completely waived.'

 

Unfortunately this is what the hospitals want - they know that litigation is long-winded so a "settlement" out of courst is what they try to offer - this way they avoid publicity and any besmirching of their or their doctors' reputations.

The money involved is usually very small - as Sheryl indicates with the govt hospital settlement.

 

the whole exercise is not centred on Customer satisfaction but damage limitation for the institution and its employees.

[Sheryl]

In the case of the OP, who is facing significant medical bills and is uninsured, a settlement is what would serve him best. And yes of course, the motive is to protect the hospital's reputation...but his motivation is to get the funds he needs, now, for life-saving care, now.

 

BTW it was no small money in the govt hospital settlement.

[cumgranosalum]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

In the case of the OP, who is facing significant medical bills and is uninsured, a settlement is what would serve him best. And yes of course, the motive is to protect the hospital's reputation...but his motivation is to get the funds he needs, now, for life-saving care, now.

 

BTW it was no small money in the govt hospital settlement.

"BTW it was no small money in the govt hospital settlement" - Yes it was - Sheryl time and again you post misleading information on medical issues - if they just get a refund that means no compensation at all - "not paid compensation but all costs of care related to the complication -- including surgery -- were completely waived" - that does not deal with costs or compensation - in the west it is a risible result.

 

Your comments seem to give the impression they  are little more than an apology for the Thai medical industry.

Edited October 12, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[blackcab]

3 hours ago, cumgranosalum said:

...in the west it is a risible result.

 

You're not in Kansas now Dorothy.

[Sheryl]

15 hours ago, cumgranosalum said:

"BTW it was no small money in the govt hospital settlement" - Yes it was - Sheryl time and again you post misleading information on medical issues - if they just get a refund that means no compensation at all - "not paid compensation but all costs of care related to the complication -- including surgery -- were completely waived" - that does not deal with costs or compensation - in the west it is a risible result.

 

Your comments seem to give the impression they  are little more than an apology for the Thai medical industry.

 

I am not trying to "apologize" for anything and I do not regard either this thread or this forum as a referendum on Thai medical care.

 

The forum is a place for expats living in Thailand  to get practical information/advice on their immediate health care problems/needs. I do not see how general commentaries on  problems in the Thai Health system in any way help people navigate it. What constructive suggestions do you have for the OP?

 

[al007]

As the original poster

 

I would like to add, at present I am maybe receiving some of the best Radiotherapy, and Chemo available in Thailand, and I am where I am as a direct consequence of Sheryl's input , guidance and help.The hospital has very up to date American equipment, and my Radiologist was trained at  the John Hopkins in the USA(I actually have a team of three qualified doctors looking after me)

 

Unlike KhonKaen University hospital who originally trained my Radiologist before he went to the USA, in Bangkok they are treating my prostate cancer at the same time as the rectum cancer, KhonKaen felt this was too difficult, or challenging

 

I hopefully have an excellent surgeon lined up again ,( who sent me to my radiologist also very competent so I believe again as a direct result of following the ladies suggestions

 

As regards compensation, I have been in contact with a charitable organisation, and am getting ready to consult a doctor they recommended, and I will ask them to recommend a lawyer, maybe we even proceed without a lawyer

 

This in no way adds to my stress level, in fact it gives me a mental challenge on which I thrive, and can divert my mind from freewheeling, and getting out of control

 

I can not remember exactly how it goes but the mind is a very dangerous place and should only be entered with a flashlight and shot gun

 

I am self insured and am spending what will be my wife's nest egg and pension, of course my wife is much younger than me by some 30 yrs, what self respecting man would say otherwise ! ! !, as wife number four after some 9 yrs with her, I can only say so far the best years of my life, and I am not gone yet

 

I have a duty to try and recover what I can for my wife, I can survive these hospital bills, which are far from unsubstantial

 

I keep a very open mind on any possible outcome of any potential legal or other action, nothing ventured nothing gained, I ALSO KNOW THIS IS THAILAND

 

I have no intention of letting this little problem to cause me distress

 

These people were negligent, in my humble opinion, lets see what other properly qualified people say, then decide where to go next, slowly slowly I am documenting everything properly

 

We all know that I will not get American Style compensation, but something I still feel and would call compensation, even if only partial, is better than nothing

[al007]

On 10/12/2016 at 9:25 AM, cumgranosalum said:

T

 

"There are no specific laws that deal with medical malpractice in Thailand" - you might benefit from reading this article ...

Medical Malpractice in Thailand

 

 

 

Thank you and appreciated it is very interesting my potential case falls into the two opening paragraphs, it also gives a link to a free legal consultation, and once I have more medical opinions and my files in order, I will try the" free" legal consultation, and leave to consider paying a legal retainer, that will no doubt be requested

 

I quote from the link, and remember the article came I believe from Forbes magazine not some gutter press organisation

 

Medical Malpractice Laws

First of all, medical malpractice claims can be filed in Thai courts. Medical malpractice is defined as an act or omission by a medical practitioner which causes injury or death to a patient; failure of the medical practitioner to diligently perform his or her duties; and providing unskilled, inadequate, and neglectful treatment to a patient. 

It also includes failure of the medical practitioner to diagnose, to give the necessary treatment, and to warn the patient of possible and known health risks.

 

Life is not so simple but it is very difficult to see how my case can be other than the para in bold

 

The value of this forum is never to be underestimated, lets all try and remember that, I do

 

This also validates another opinion I was given, and to me validation is very comforting

[Sheryl]

There is a TV member, also in Issan, in advanced stages of a malpractice suit.  With his consent I added you to a PM conversation with him as he has some useful tips to offer but didn't see you reply - maybe check your inbox. It was around Oct 12th

[cumgranosalum]

On 10/13/2016 at 0:39 PM, Sheryl said:

 

I am not trying to "apologize" for anything and I do not regard either this thread or this forum as a referendum on Thai medical care.

 

The forum is a place for expats living in Thailand  to get practical information/advice on their immediate health care problems/needs. I do not see how general commentaries on  problems in the Thai Health system in any way help people navigate it. What constructive suggestions do you have for the OP?

 

Now you have lost your thread - my advice is that the Thai healthcare system is vERY inconsistant and that anyone using it shoiuld be aware of the pitfalls - I have pointed out some - but not all of these - and given some other advice too if you read my posts.....you will also see that the OP has thanked me for some info I gave him.  It seems to me that you are being bit  churlish.

 

Edited October 23, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[cumgranosalum]

A coda - for those who claim "training" in th USA - it is in fact almost impossible for a foreign doctor to practice in the US they have to go through years of expensive training in the US to do that and Thai doctors seldom have the time or money to do this.

Other training is often given to medical practitioners on an "observer" basis and at the end the customer is given a certificate to put on their wall.

 

If you look at most of these certificates they are from the stes or carribean islands as this sort of industry does not exist in Europe to any such great extent.

[Sheryl]

It is quite possible for Thai physicians to complete residencies or fellowships in the US and a number do so every year. (So do many other nationalities). The process requires, in addition to having graduated from an approved medical school, passing a series of examinations that assess both medical competency and English fluency. Overall, about half of those who apply (all nationalities) pass.

 

Beyond that, they have to meet the specific residency or fellowship requirements set by each institution and the process is competetive. And they must obtain medical licensure in the state they will be in.

 

It is easy to verify claims of having done a residency or fellowship in the US as the doctor will have been licensed in at least one state and appear in various US listings/websites (sometimes with reviews). Current board certification is the US also easily verified through websites of the relevant board.

 

I am not sure what "certificates" you refer to. A residency or fellowship is not a short certificate course.

[NancyL]

I've been involved in assisting several older foreigners in Chiang Mai who thought they were victims of medical malpractice, both at government and private hospitals and initially wanted to take a very U.S. approach of hiring a lawyer, suing the hospital, demanding restitution, including money for "pain & suffering", extra hotel expenses for family members, etc.  Some had hired a local Thai attorney and found them to be useless in pursuing their case prior to contacting me.

 

In every case I've been involved with, I would think the hospital/doctors would be of the opinion that what happened was that medical practice isn't 100% absolute.  There is always the rare time that unexpected complications develop or equipment fails in the operating room.  Also, sometimes, the patients don't follow advice and get out of bed too soon, check themselves out of the hospital early against medical advice, fail to take prescribed take-home meds as ordered, etc and that can contribute to the problems that develop.  

 

So, the Thai way is to negotiate a settlement.  Most often, the hospital will fully pay for all costs associated with follow-up treatment needed to correct the error.  They don't come right out and offer this initially, but usually this is the final outcome if cool hearts prevail.  

 

 

[Sheryl]

Nancy, I agree that negotiated settlement is the "Thai way" and that western-style damages inclusive of compensation for pain and suffering are pretty much unheard of here. But I don't think that is what OP is seeking. Rather he wants to offset the substantial costs of treatment he has to have as a result of gross medical negligence. And without going into the details, in this particular instance it was gross negligence and failure to follow minimally acceptable common medical practice -- not at all the sort of thing you describe.

. This is an exceptional case and clear cut.

[NancyL]

In re-reading the OP, he's asking for a recommendation for a "rottweiler of a lawyer" who can represent him in a case that you describe as  "gross negligence and failure to follow minimally acceptable common medical practice".  

 

Thankfully, I've not encountered such a case in my Chiang Mai experience and no, I'm not aware of such a lawyer here in Thailand.

[al007]

Slowly slowly don't kid yourself otherwise this is thailand

 

Today , i have been trying to get a government hospital to put their stamp on a letter a consultant gave me so I can claim back a holiday deposit, well four times to the same office, and four days on, and each time it is 30 mins walk, in the end I sat down in the bosses chair he was on a 2 1/2 hr lunch break, they change their mind again, and want more information, they send my wife running

 

The man wants his chair back, I say I want the stamp and I will then give your chair back, another hour and it all continues, after four more hours there today I get it , I am weak with the chemo, my wife tells them I am going to pass out.

 

Then I go to radiology and wait for two and a half hours,for my radiology, my consultant is a nice guy and he apologises and says its a government hospital, I tell him I am going to dye of waiting not cancer we laugh, we buy chocolates for the doctor and head nurse, and a dose of something bad for the man in charge of the stamps

 

On lawyers/claim I was given a doctor to help me on my claim by a charitable organisation, I go to the location he chooses ( 45 min in a taxi) arrive ten mins early, and call him, again 40 mins later I call him again, after one hour I leave, he was probably going to ask for too large % anyway

 

I have been in contact with another person who is in the midst of legal litigation on a malpractice claim, and yes he has had a rough ride so far wth the courts etc

The defending hospitals lawyers have given him avery rough time, I have said to him , when his case closes let me have the name of the defending lawyers, could be a possibility, also in my area of the country

 

While in Bangkok I am going to ask my consultant to recommend someone to review my papers who will write a written opinion, and I will pay for the time, hope fully he will volunteer, once I have one opinion I will try and get a second opinion as well

 

At the medical university attached to the hospital where I am having radiology and chemotherapy, maybe find the professor who lectures on professional negligence, and seek his help, of course assuming such topics are taught

 

When I am ready with all my files and opinions I may approach the hospital concerned myself, with a lawyer in the background, either to legalise what I might agree or fire the first burst of a legal action

I do not relish the idea of litigation in Thailand, I am competent to do it but know the ugly path it can take

However I would be financially ,irresponsible if I do not continue to investigate and make that claim

 

I have established the cut off date for a claim at one year from when it came to my attention, which I take as the day I was informed I had cancer, so I have around 46 weeks left to file my claim

 

To those who moan about UK NHS my experiences in India and Thailand make it look like five star deluxe, that said i believe the quality of my consultant and the equipment at the government hospital here to be first class,

[al007]

On 10/23/2016 at 3:54 PM, Sheryl said:

Nancy, I agree that negotiated settlement is the "Thai way" and that western-style damages inclusive of compensation for pain and suffering are pretty much unheard of here. But I don't think that is what OP is seeking. Rather he wants to offset the substantial costs of treatment he has to have as a result of gross medical negligence. And without going into the details, in this particular instance it was gross negligence and failure to follow minimally acceptable common medical practice -- not at all the sort of thing you describe.

. This is an exceptional case and clear cut.

 

Thank you Sheryl, with such positive comments how could I not pursue

 

And Nancy I  have two lovely alsatians as guard dogs and pets, in the same way if I am going to have to use a lawyer I want one with teeth, hopefully he will only show them smiling, but I am not necessarily dealing with gentlemen, and need to be prepared

[al007]

 I continue my information gathering and will in due course try and recoup some money

 

However I was told yesterday all hospitals and doctors in Thailand have professional indemnity insurance, which covers them in the event of a malpractice, I would be very interested, because I feel it may not be the case

 

This would make me claiming maybe easier, and at least remove emotions from the topic

 

Input appreciated

[al007]

I copy and paste from ARE ANNUAL MEDICALS WORTH IT because we all need to do something if things are to improve and it will take time a lot of time

 

 

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ID: 37   Posted 2 minutes ago · Report post

On 11/16/2016 at 7:57 AM, impulse said:

 

I did the same, at one of the big name hospitals in BKK.  EKG 2-4x a year and stress test each year for 3 years running.  Went in on a Friday because I knew something wasn't right.  Doc said no change on the EKG, so we'll see you in 3 months.  I insisted something was wrong and asked for the next level of tests.  

 

As a result, that Monday I had a triple bypass after they found one artery blocked 95% and another blocked 100% (I didn't think that was even possible- apparently it is).  This after the cardio guy gave me a clean bill of health.  Had I gotten reasonable care 3 years earlier, I suspect I would have gotten stents instead of a bypass.

 

Annual checkups are great if you can trust the results.  If they give you a warm fuzzy while something is eating you up from the inside, they're worse than useless.  They're criminal.

 

This is one case where Thai defamation laws cost lives.  We should be able to name and shame doctors (and hospitals) who give sub-standard care, just so others don't have to learn the hard way.  Like the guy at my office who died of a stroke the week after he was given a clean report on a "comprehensive" annual checkup.

 

This is unfortunately so very true

 

And yes the Deformation Laws help to cover all this up

 

ANOTHER REASON I HAVE TO PURSUE MY MALPRACTICE CASE, very similar blatant evidence of cancer ignored, because if we do nothing this laid back, could not care attitude will continue

 

 

[evadgib]

My then insurers opted not to pursue a case through the courts cira 2007 because their legal fees would likely dwarf their initial expenditure with no means of getting it back.

 

HTH