Reducing The Heat In The House

[Naam]

28 minutes ago, Psychic said:

I used an insulated white metal roof.

If I stick my head through the hole in the ceiling it actually feels much cooler than the top of the room where the heat accumulates.

So much so, that I am considering ceiling vents so that heat can escape.

you have indeed psychic powers

[Naam]

14 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Get ya some good ceiling fans to circulate that air especially if you use or plan to use air-conditioning. Will help draw in the cooler air from the outside as well. 

airconditioning draws cooler air from outside?

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, Naam said:

19 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Get ya some good ceiling fans to circulate that air especially if you use or plan to use air-conditioning. Will help draw in the cooler air from the outside as well. 

airconditioning draws cooler air from outside?

 

lol he said he wanted to vent his ceiling into his roof area cause the heat was collecting up top. Why do that if you have any intention to run aircon at any time. 

 

Put up a couple ceiling fans and switch the rotation to pull air from the bottom up and circulate. Or if it feels cooler blow from the top down. If your windows are open and there is heat collecting at the top, pulling air from the bottom to the top will help draw outside air into the house.

 

unless of course its just hot as balls everywhere, then just close up and turn the aircon on. 

[Strange]

22 minutes ago, BuaBS said:

"insulated white metal roof"

 

Why do white & silver metal like on a car heat up ?

Why does reflecting metale like bare aluminum and silver heat up in the sun ?

Why does a mirror heat up in the sun?

Reflective roof tiles ??

 

What is this a riddle? 

[louse1953]

3 hours ago, Denim said:

Yep.....windows are real weak spots when it comes to keeping out the heat. Designed our house to have as few as necessary without making the inside dark.

It's surprising the number of newbies that decide to build a house here and put in as many windows as possible to allow cool breezes to blow through their house.

 

Got those soffit boards all around our house to try and encourage airflow in the attic along with lots of insulation up there.

Why have windows in the 1st place.Why do people bring their western ideas to Thailand when all they have to do is look around at their Thai neighbors.Before i built i checked where the sun goes.The sun never touches my superblock walls.As far as windows i just have frames with security frame and mozzy screen.Wooden shutters are never shut,unless i go away for a month.When i told the missus no windows,she said good,no clean.Learn from the people around you.They worked this out centuries ago,including houses on stilts.

[daveAustin]

Good idea, op. For a minute there I thought you were going to bring out the ol insulated-box-with-ice-in-and-fan-on-top air-conditioning alternative. 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, topt said:

Any suggestions as to what to do when you don't have any attic - or none that is accessible? The stairspace goes all the way up to the roof as far as I can tell.  I don't open windows/doors upstairs as the amount of dust that would come in is not something to countenance. The roof overhangs in places but no vents at all.

 

Flat roof or peaked roof or ridge?

[chiang mai]

Trivia:  Metal roofs are the best at reflecting heat:

 

http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/construction/green/10-best-roofing-materials10.htm

[Gold Star]

I love the idea of the soffit venting panels on the windows that the OP has brought to our attention. 

 

I lease an old 2 story 3 bedroom house, cottage style design roof with old fiber shingles, with no insulation. The main floor windows are all louvered, and uppers are old style swinging multi pane windows, with some permanently open louvered windows on the bathrooms. The top floor heats up during the day a lot, as the attic gets hot like an oven, and it radiates down to the rooms through the ceiling. My follicly challenged scalp is a great gauge of radiant heat from the ceiling. The AC was installed a long time ago as an afterthought in each of the 3 bedrooms, but they are the very inefficient loud old style units, that simply cost too much to run as the cooled air continues to escape out of the masonry rooms and tries to cool the bricks.  My Thai landlord won't spend a single baht for improvements, and I don't want to either, as I don't think I'll be here that long. Coming here from a life spent in Northern Canada, you learn a few things about insulation, and heat transfer that keep you alive, that I don't want to pay for to apply in my situation here.

 

However, I was able to lower my house temp considerably by opening the attic man-access panel in the bathroom, and position an 18" fan in the opening along with a short cardboard box taped up as a duct. The soffit venting is minimal here, but the fiber roof tiles are so loose fitting up top, no additional roof venting was needed to get the air moving up and out. I kept the fan on full during the day pressurizing the attic, and pulling the air up through the house. The ceilings were a LOT cooler, according to my head sensor. In the evening, the attic cooled much faster now after the sun went down, and did not get as hot during the day either. I opened the lower floor window louvers on the cooler side of the house, and it drew in the lower cooler air, pulling it up through the whole house and out the attic. This all worked well, until the evil spirits living in the attic kept watching the wife and daughter while they were in the bathroom, and I had to disassemble the whole rig and put the access panel up again to keep the peace.  Now I just open everything doors and windows, all the time, and use fans.

 

I also planted quick growing bamboo all around the house, in order to give it some shade during the late afternoon where the sun radiates from the sides, and heats up the walls. That is starting to help, as it slowly envelopes the house in foliage, hopefully soon like an ancient undiscovered Khmer jungle temple. 

 

Now if I could only solve the electrocution hazards and wiring fires from poor Thai wiring and installation, and the constant sewage backups during rains flooding the floors, I might live long enough to move out.

 

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, norbra said:

Might consider leaving keys in locks of fire doors instead of trying to find them when you may be under pressure to get out

 

Appreciate the advice, only problem with that is our 2 year old will be hiding them as she can reach the lock/s, when she gets a little older will be doing that.

 

As for now, we have a smoke detector outside our bedroom door and across the hallway is the exit door, keys are clearly marked, and torch is right next to them in the box on top of the bedside table, and everyone knows not to even think about it, as those keys are only for me to use, and if they want to go out those doors for any reason, which they don't, they have to ask me to open and lock them, because I have to know those keys are back in their place, and I check every night before bedtime. 

[Strange]

2 minutes ago, Gold Star said:

Now if I could only solve the electrocution hazards and wiring fires from poor Thai wiring and installation, and the constant sewage backups during rains flooding the floors, I might live long enough to move out.

 

Damn man just move out. If you are outside of the major areas you can easily get something for 5-6-7k 

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, Denim said:

Yep.....windows are real weak spots when it comes to keeping out the heat. Designed our house to have as few as necessary without making the inside dark.

It's surprising the number of newbies that decide to build a house here and put in as many windows as possible to allow cool breezes to blow through their house.

 

Got those soffit boards all around our house to try and encourage airflow in the attic along with lots of insulation up there.

 

Yep 17 windows, 2 x glass sliding panel doors, two fixed tinted glass panels on either side of the entry doors, and a half size glass brick wall at the rear, having grown up on the east coast of Sydney, one overlooked that the breezes here in Issan, (if any) are far and few between, especially in March/April/May when its time to roast.

 

For the life of me, I just can't understand how Thai's live without air conditioning, sure affordability has some thing to do with it.

[chiang mai]

Wood window frames are the best bet, they create a natural heat break, aluminium frames transfer heat from the glass to the walls and heat up the room. Be aware, if you go this route only use wood from the list of ten royal woods that are impervious to everything except a nuclear attack.

[Strange]

upvc is sold at most of the major home shops now but in certain sizes. The most expensive option, but the best by far. 

 

Op you should look into this if the place you are in now is gonna be permanent. 

 

Any of the local "builders" will be able to install them and day rate is about 300/day. 

 

Would sure be better in the long run than the boards you have up now

[Enoon]

Bamboo leaf thatch, laid over a metal roof, reduces heat absorption considerably.

 

It also cuts down the noise of rain.

 

But possibly too "old/peasant" for many Thai partners.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[topt]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

 

Flat roof or peaked roof or ridge?

This should give a better idea -

[Strange]

Just now, topt said:

This should give a better idea -

 

There should definitely be a way up there. Thats a lot of roof space. Gable too. Could get some vents up there.

 

Im sure you know your house, but are you sure there is no access panel at all? 

 

If not, could get some guys to make one. 

 

Is it hotter in the upper floors than the lower ones?

[Psychic]

2 hours ago, Strange said:

 

lol he said he wanted to vent his ceiling into his roof area cause the heat was collecting up top. Why do that if you have any intention to run aircon at any time. 

 

Put up a couple ceiling fans and switch the rotation to pull air from the bottom up and circulate. Or if it feels cooler blow from the top down. If your windows are open and there is heat collecting at the top, pulling air from the bottom to the top will help draw outside air into the house.

 

unless of course its just hot as balls everywhere, then just close up and turn the aircon on. 

I built the house to reduce the need for a/c as much as possible.

8" q-con walls, white metal insulated roof and large windows on opposite walls of the rifms, 14 foot ceiling in the living room.

As I said, if you're on a ladder, near the ceiling is the hottest part of the house, thus the idea of the vents.

For the vast majority of the year, we're fine with fans. Around Songkran this year it would have been nice to have a/c since it was hot even for Thailand.

So before next year, I'll put a/c in the bedrooms just to have somewhere to get a break from the heat if it's as hot again.

[topt]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

There should definitely be a way up there. Thats a lot of roof space. Gable too. Could get some vents up there.

 

Im sure you know your house, but are you sure there is no access panel at all? 

 

If not, could get some guys to make one. 

 

Is it hotter in the upper floors than the lower ones?

Both the front facing room as you look at the picture and the stairs/landing area behind go all the way up like a vaulted/cathedral type so definitely no attic space.

The other two rooms left and right you could create access but they are separated and I think there is less then you would expect as the roof angle comes down to head height almost at the back of the house.

Yes hotter.

[chiang mai]

The roof construction looks like it probably consists of steel against concrete, all the way to the peak which doesn't offer much opportunity for traditional attic ventilation. That having been said there is an obvious means of exhausting hot air from the valleys where they form a peak in the from the front and at the side of the house. First steps might be to consider either/and gable vents (slatted vents to allow the hot air to escape) in those two locations, a follow on might be thermostatically controlled vent fans to increase air flow (they're cheap enough, about 1,500 baht per fan plus the cost of thermostat plus install).

 

BUT, none of that will be effective unless you find a way to allow cooler air from lower levels to be introduced into the roof void to replace the hot that you want the vents/fan to remove. If that's not entirely clear,  hot air rises and hot air expands so it will follow the course of exit that is the easiest. But it will only do so if following air can replace the (soon to be expelled) hot air, otherwise the hot air will simply seep gradually through the vents, forced or otherwise.

 

It may be possible to introduce lower/cooler air intakes into the house without the need for eves vents/soffits, but without understanding more about the construction or layout it's difficult to comment effectively - possibly a chimney effect could be arranged where cooler air from a lower shaded level is introduced through a closet ceiling, I have similar and it works really well in addition to all the other measures I've put in place. Note: none of what I've described needs be expensive. Note 2: we run aircon only ever at night and then for only about two months per year. Heat avoidance measures work well for us and our most expensive electricity bill in two years has been about 1,600 baht for the month of June this year (I think) and we're not afraid to spend money on these things, it's just that we don't need to.

 

Edit to add: is the ceiling of the upper floor made of concrete, that is the attic space floor?

 

Edited October 11, 2016 by chiang mai

[Strange]

16 minutes ago, Psychic said:

2 hours ago, Strange said:

lol he said he wanted to vent his ceiling into his roof area cause the heat was collecting up top. Why do that if you have any intention to run aircon at any time. 

 

Put up a couple ceiling fans and switch the rotation to pull air from the bottom up and circulate. Or if it feels cooler blow from the top down. If your windows are open and there is heat collecting at the top, pulling air from the bottom to the top will help draw outside air into the house.

 

unless of course its just hot as balls everywhere, then just close up and turn the aircon on. 

I built the house to reduce the need for a/c as much as possible.

8" q-con walls, white metal insulated roof and large windows on opposite walls of the rifms, 14 foot ceiling in the living room.

As I said, if you're on a ladder, near the ceiling is the hottest part of the house, thus the idea of the vents.

For the vast majority of the year, we're fine with fans. Around Songkran this year it would have been nice to have a/c since it was hot even for Thailand.

So before next year, I'll put a/c in the bedrooms just to have somewhere to get a break from the heat if it's as hot again.

 

Sounds like you did a good job and put some thought in it. I put good quality 5 blade ceiling fans in every room and 2 in the living/kitchen area. Open plan 5M X 9M for kitchen/living. 

 

Did you install any? The locals have a funny irrational fear of them but who cares... Have a look cause you seem a lot more tolerant than me in regards to heat. You probably already know but the ceiling fans have a switch on the side of the body to change the rotation. Can easily be installed in gyprock or tile ceilings and the average cost is about 500b per fan to install. 

[Strange]

29 minutes ago, topt said:

Both the front facing room as you look at the picture and the stairs/landing area behind go all the way up like a vaulted/cathedral type so definitely no attic space.

The other two rooms left and right you could create access but they are separated and I think there is less then you would expect as the roof angle comes down to head height almost at the back of the house.

Yes hotter.

 

Honestly if thats your house, and its like you say it is, then probably the hassle isn't worth it to go and change it. Its a nice house and Id just run the air conditioner instead of having some locals come and mess it up trying to ventilate a small space in the ceiling. Sure there are things you can do but imho its not worth it. If there is a way to get up there over the rooms and add insulation then that would be your best bet. That big tile roof is beating down on the rooms with just a gyprock ceiling protecting you from it. 

[Psychic]

Yes, we have ceiling fans in each room.

The high ceilings in the living area really make a difference in the daytime for keeping it cool.

But I need to get extensions for the ceiling fans there as they're too high.

At night when it cools off the fans in the bedroom are fine for us nearly all the time.

It helps that we're on a hillside with near constant wind/breezes and not in an urban heat trap.

When we go down to the city it feels a good 5° hotter.

[topt]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

 

Honestly if thats your house, and its like you say it is, then probably the hassle isn't worth it to go and change it. Its a nice house and Id just run the air conditioner instead of having some locals come and mess it up trying to ventilate a small space in the ceiling. Sure there are things you can do but imho its not worth it. If there is a way to get up there over the rooms and add insulation then that would be your best bet. That big tile roof is beating down on the rooms with just a gyprock ceiling protecting you from it. 

I had sort of come to that conclusion but thought I would ask just in case so thank you for taking the time

Based on another house where they ripped out all the plasterboard ceilings I am hoping there is insulation as there was there as otherwise the only way to add would be to pull them all down........

[Colabamumbai]

Tried to buy fibreglass or an kind of insulation for the inside of the roof and the contractor told me it was not available in Thailand.  He has done construction in many foreign countries.   Where do you find it???  And  you paid 60,000 Baht? You must have a large roof.

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, Colabamumbai said:

Tried to buy fibreglass or an kind of insulation for the inside of the roof and the contractor told me it was not available in Thailand.  He has done construction in many foreign countries.   Where do you find it???  And  you paid 60,000 Baht? You must have a large roof.

 

Huh? That stuff is everywhere. I think I bought mine from Thai watsadu or something. Big rolls of it and it was 6" thick when rolled out. I just bought mine and had day rate guys install it when the gyprock ceiling was going in. It was yellow fiberglass with silver colored sheeting on both sides. Day rate guys had no idea what I wanted it up there for and were itchy as hell when the day was done. It had the best "R" value in the shop printed right on the bag. 

 

Gotta look at the big home building shops, not the local building supply stores that work on credit. 

[Grubster]

8 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Those are vented soffit boards designed to go under the eves to allow cooler air from below to replace the hotter air that escapes higher up. The problem with what you've done in your attic/roof space is that you've not vented it. You need some means to allow the hot air to escape from a higher elevations BUT you need a corresponding amount of air intake (vented soffit boards) at the eves to allow cooler air in. Whirlybirds may provide the exhaust you need but they wont work effectively without the cooler air inlet. The US roofing companies have some good web sites that explain how to balance air flow in the roof void, I have 14 square metres of roof ventilation, that's seven square metres in the form of gable vents (four sets) to allow hot air out and another seven square metres at the eves via vented soffit boards. Six inch aluminium foil covered bat type insulation is effective if laid on the attic floor BUT ONLY if the roof space is vented. Bamboo roller blinds outside the window are also good value and can be attractive.

I have the pre insulated and reflective metal roof panels, They told me I didn't need anything other than the soffit venting. I was sure they were wrong but decided I could add vents later if needed. The hard ceiling is done now and I climbed up there on a sunny day and it was probably only 40 degrees or so. I am amazed at this fact. There will be no insulation on my ceiling as I feel it won't need it. I was in the HVAC business for many years in the US and I know how hot a well ventilated attic gets there. Most roofs I worked under there were asphalt shingles on plywood, the heat radiates thru that like crazy.

[Colabamumbai]

Thanks now Ban Bung does not have Watsudu but I told the G/F that Chonburi city may have.  I am wondering if it is worth the cost. About 5 x 12 metres. And how much it will really reduce the heat. Subdivided   5 x 5.  But the whole interior should be done.

 

We have the white tiles inside for the ceiling. Having the room subdivided this week metal frame and plasterboard, so we can have air con installed. I use air very little an hour in the afternoon and a few hours at night.

 

Only one window and it does not get the sun.

[Grubster]

4 hours ago, topt said:

Any suggestions as to what to do when you don't have any attic - or none that is accessible? The stairspace goes all the way up to the roof as far as I can tell.  I don't open windows/doors upstairs as the amount of dust that would come in is not something to countenance. The roof overhangs in places but no vents at all.

If the ceiling is not hot to the touch I wouldn't worry about it. Also remember heat rises and unless the ceiling is considerably warmer than the room you are not losing much cooling there, Walls, windows,doors, and floors are another issue. If you have a floor over an unconditioned space it will triple your AC cost's. 

[Grubster]

45 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Sounds like you did a good job and put some thought in it. I put good quality 5 blade ceiling fans in every room and 2 in the living/kitchen area. Open plan 5M X 9M for kitchen/living. 

 

Did you install any? The locals have a funny irrational fear of them but who cares... Have a look cause you seem a lot more tolerant than me in regards to heat. You probably already know but the ceiling fans have a switch on the side of the body to change the rotation. Can easily be installed in gyprock or tile ceilings and the average cost is about 500b per fan to install. 

Don't run the fans with the AC as you are only moving the air across the walls, windows, and ceiling transferring the heat from them into your conditioned air.