Reducing The Heat In The House

[Naam]

12 hours ago, Grubster said:

 I have been paying double for my power in the rental house which is standard procedure for Thai landlords. I should have never told the Mrs that though, she is pissed.

there's no reason to be pissed. usually Thai landlords charge you either a higher rate for utilities or a higher rent. bottom line = same same and not different.

[Naam]

36 minutes ago, Strange said:

How are you going to run your wiring? Through the floor? Grind out the walls? 

Grubster is either pulling our legs or he uses electricity "by wi-fi"

[Strange]

21 hours ago, Grubster said:

Yes it is a big state, From what I have seen most walls there are thin and poorly insulated, the ceilings are made on 24" centers, not enough electrical outlets, many electrical connections above the ceilings, low profile roofs unless in areas like Naam mentioned. AC/furnace crammed in a closet. Flexible duct throughout the attic, greatly reducing airflow and costing constantly in electrical and maintainence costs. I'm sure they use a lot of insulation above the ceilings as insulation is very cheap and of good quality in the US,  also using a vapor barrier in a ceiling like foil backed is a no no there, and here as it will cause mildew in your ceiling, shouldn't have to worry much here though as the gaps they leave everywhere will allow the moisture to mix into the hot air. All this said a nice layer of raw fiberglass insulation above the ceiling here would be optimum no doubt. I couldn't find any of that, but if I need I can have the blown in done later but I doubt it. 40 degrees is not hot for an attic.

 

None of this is true. Flexible duct? No. Flexible duct is typically a retrofit system Grubster. Its not done in new builds unless the homeowner wants it. 

 

Thin walls? if 2x4 and 2x6 is thin, I would hate to see what you find adequate. Poorly insulated? Not even close. Why would you even say that? 

 

Electrical outlets? Every 6' or less as per code.... So.... 

 

Electrical connections in the ceiling? What? Romex through the walls and ceiling before drywall. Not sure what you are talking about here. 

 

Low profile roofs? 4/12 and 6/12 are not low profile. We don't get snow you knucklehead so we get away with more aesthetically pleasing rooflines with less support material.

 

AC can be crammed in a closet because we don't have a furnace, we use a heat pump system. And even then the system is typically in the garage unless you were staying in an apartment for christ sake. 

 

Grubster, you are talking nonsense. Modern building codes completely annihilate everything you said. 

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, Naam said:

there's no reason to be pissed. usually Thai landlords charge you either a higher rate for utilities or a higher rent. bottom line = same same and not different.

 

Fixed rent and paying your own utilities isn't same same lol. If talking about renting a "House" then yeah I would be concerned why I'm paying double for electricity. 

 

I don't even know how that would work? PEA Drops off the bill at the landlords house in the tube thingy and then calculates it on behalf of the renter? 

Im sure it can be done, but TIT and Im not trusting anyone to calculate anything on my behalf so imho not same same

[Naam]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

Flexible duct? No. Flexible duct is typically a retrofit system Grubster. Its not done in new builds unless the homeowner wants it. 

 

this homeowner in Florida insisted on it! the different available diameters were ideal to implement my idea of "duct in duct" which is nearly impossible when using rigid ducts. using flexible ducts provides the big advantage to install on site without complicated pre-manufacturing and without potential work stoppage if parts do not exactly fit.  

[Naam]

13 minutes ago, Strange said:

Low profile roofs? 4/12 and 6/12 are not low profile. We don't get snow you knucklehead so we get away with more aesthetically pleasing rooflines with less support material.

you never experienced a blizzard in Thailand with a foot of snow?

[Fookhaht]

13 hours ago, Naam said:

 

any structural engineer would warn that these single poles are unsafe at high winds although the roof is horizontal and does not have the resistance of a huge billboard. a second roof is not such a bad idea. but as far as cost is concerned i suggest to compare it with the cost of Qcon/Superblock double walls. preventing radiation on outside walls totally is nearly impossible. and the morning and evening sun hits at an angle that causes nearly as much radiation efficiency as in the "hot" hours.

Yeah, I saw the total collapse of a large town market in my Isaan town a couple years ago in high winds with poles like that (killed two people and injured dozens). 

I'm not an engineer, but would the increase of the number of poles, plus vertical "X" beams connecting them, significantly increase the overall strength to the point you'd be more comfortable with the safety of it?   I would want the "X" bars/beams placed at the top 1/3  area of the poles so as not to block views.

(Something like this, but with the "x" supports higher up; and imagine the vertical poles are same as in my photos)
 

 

Another idea I had was to surround the poles with block and poured concrete to create an external "skeleton" around each pole to increase the strength.  I know there is a differential in thermal expansion between metal and concrete, but isn't that a bigger problem in cold climates?  #1) do you think it would significantly add to the strength, and #2) would the thermal expansion in a tropical climate be of little consequence?  

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, Naam said:

this homeowner in Florida insisted on it! the different available diameters were ideal to implement my idea of "duct in duct" which is nearly impossible when using rigid ducts. using flexible ducts provides the big advantage to install on site without complicated pre-manufacturing and without potential work stoppage if parts do not exactly fit.  

 

Flexible duct isn't even a negative if its designed properly. I mean if it doesn't work well, its not the system fault. Its the installation. 

 

What I've seen is rigid duct to flexible duct. Rigid "main section" then it reaches out like an octopus to the rooms of varying diameters. Plus some of the rooms will have their own return air duct as well. 

[carlyai]

pardon me... how did you run your wiring ??

Naam Naam my son, let me learn you (in the nicest, respectful manner).

I've got cavity brick walls, and bloody high roof line with a very small ceiling space and exposed beams.

All my lights are on the walls, and the power to the fans (hanging from the exposed beams) gets there through conduit inside the exposed beams.

So all the million cables for power, lights, tv, aircon, speakers, CTV in the guests bedroom, etc comes up thru the cavities to a raceway above the top bond beam...where everything connects, then for the 10 crappy fans are run through the exposed beams and the ceiling is on top of that.

No wiring in the ceiling mate. [emoji10]

Now, as I've discovered reading this thread, I've done everything in the house design wrong, quite depressing really.[emoji21]

But, I ain't got wires in the ceiling. [emoji41][emoji11][emoji11][emoji11]

Pool design coming soooooon.


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[Grubster]

5 hours ago, Strange said:

 

The Mrs is pissed for good reason, paying double per unit is not common practice unless you rent one of those partially furnished "Room" things on a monthly basis and usually because the meter per room isn't a PEA addressed meter. I forget the term, but its the same meter they will put up during the construction phase of a home without an address. 8 baht something per unit. This can be circumvented by buying your own meter but the Thais don't like to rent from a place that does not have a PEA calibrated meter. They believe they will be overcharged. 

 

Even then, if you rent a house, the bill for electric comes to the house and the renter pays the bill. Condos and stuff yeah some landlords like to overcharge for electric and water, but a house not so much. 

 

 

How are you going to run your wiring? Through the floor? Grind out the walls? 

No all the wiring is in the ceiling and comes down into the electrical room, all the outside electric comes in and out through the floor. When I say outside I mean the well house, the future pool area, the party shack on the pond, the front gate, the main feed, and also a low voltage conduit for satellite cable,  internet cable, door/gate bell, maybe cameras.

            My landlord has ten houses here and she gets the bill for all, then doubles them to 8 baht per unit. I saw a post here about that and many said it was normal but not right of course.

[Grubster]

4 hours ago, Strange said:

 

Flexible duct isn't even a negative if its designed properly. I mean if it doesn't work well, its not the system fault. Its the installation. 

 

What I've seen is rigid duct to flexible duct. Rigid "main section" then it reaches out like an octopus to the rooms of varying diameters. Plus some of the rooms will have their own return air duct as well. 

Every time the air passes one of those wire ridges in the flex it causes an eddy that causes resistance to air flow and I mean a lot. round steel pipe is so much more efficient it ridiculous. Flex has its place but good contractors don't use much. I have seen it cause an increase in motor size from 100 horse power to 200 on a big job. That would only be about a 25% loss in air flow to make for the doubling of horse power. check "Fan Laws". I have also seen where the fan wasn't capable of doing it at all because it was already operating at the top of its curve. Change fan also.

[Naam]

5 hours ago, Fookhaht said:

Another idea I had was to surround the poles with block and poured concrete to create an external "skeleton" around each pole to increase the strength.  I know there is a differential in thermal expansion between metal and concrete,

bad idea! expansion and contraction coefficients are neglible when steel rods are embedded in concrete. not so when it's a hollow steel pipe with a rather big circumference.

 

you are much closer to a solution with your "X" idea but then the main supports should be "x-ed" too. something like this

[Naam]

3 hours ago, carlyai said:

But, I ain't got wires in the ceiling.

vhy not Papa? iss zere a speshul reason bekause yew don't like vires in ze zeiling?

[Lampang2]

Build an outer and inner shell.
Apply vacuum in between.
Job done.

[Naam]

49 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Every time the air passes one of those wire ridges in the flex it causes an eddy that causes resistance to air flow and I mean a lot.

the secret is "use oversized diameters" and "pull the inside duct" to reduce resistance. of course there will be always more resistance but even for a rather big single family home the difference is negligible especially when you have three independent systems with individual compressors and airhandlers (as we had in Florida). a 5-ton airhandler has a fan motor of ~2kW = <3hp, i.e. your comparison 100hp and double is "slightly" out of range. did you refer to a shopping center?

[Naam]

23 minutes ago, Lampang2 said:

Build an outer and inner shell.
Apply vacuum in between.
Job done.

yep, applying vacuum is child's play

[Grubster]

19 minutes ago, Naam said:

the secret is "use oversized diameters" and "pull the inside duct" to reduce resistance. of course there will be always more resistance but even for a rather big single family home the difference is negligible especially when you have three independent systems with individual compressors and airhandlers (as we had in Florida). a 5-ton airhandler has a fan motor of ~2kW = <3hp, i.e. your comparison 100hp and double is "slightly" out of range. did you refer to a shopping center?

Elementary school. Oversizing duct is just as bad as undersizing duct on the supply side. Large systems are identical to small systems only bigger. Running long lengths of flex duct is the biggest sin in the sheet metal industry today costing millions daily in wasted energy. You cannot make a long length of flex good, less bad only by a little.

[Naam]

7 minutes ago, Grubster said:

the biggest sin in the sheet metal industry

i'm not in the sheet metal industry and i select my solutions according to my priorities without being influenced except by laws of physics which might prevent any of my ideas. however, i confess being a serial energy wasting criminal using annual electricity exceeding 200,000 Baht.

 

i also admit having all kinds of wiring in the ceilings and walls. mitigating circumstances are that i don't waste gas or heating oil during Thai winters even when blizzards hit hard.

[Grubster]

3 minutes ago, Naam said:

i'm not in the sheet metal industry and i select my solutions according to my priorities without being influenced except by laws of physics which might prevent any of my ideas. however, i confess being a serial energy wasting criminal using annual electricity exceeding 200,000 Baht.

 

i also admit having all kinds of wiring in the ceilings and walls. mitigating circumstances are that i don't waste gas or heating oil during Thai winters even when blizzards hit hard.

I am also an energy waster hence my uninsulated ceiling that will probably add less than 10% to the cost of AC. I also have a lot of wiring in the walls and ceilings my reference to wiring in the ceiling was about connections that often go bad should not be in the ceiling. If you have three wires in your outlet boxes the the connection is in the ceiling, if you have six wires than the connection is in the box and easy to repair. The wires loop from box to box costing more in wire. I'm hoping for 100,000 baht but my home is about half the size of yours too.

[Strange]

25 minutes ago, Grubster said:

I am also an energy waster hence my uninsulated ceiling that will probably add less than 10% to the cost of AC. I also have a lot of wiring in the walls and ceilings my reference to wiring in the ceiling was about connections that often go bad should not be in the ceiling. If you have three wires in your outlet boxes the the connection is in the ceiling, if you have six wires than the connection is in the box and easy to repair. The wires loop from box to box costing more in wire. I'm hoping for 100,000 baht but my home is about half the size of yours too.

 

Well, I know you will not ever insulate your ceiling, regardless of the fact that you are spending a fortune on your home, electrical, air-conditioning, and everything else and the evidence worldwide that says that its a good idea. Its not even that expensive when you look at the cost of your current outlay. Dont need to tape it up either. Just pack it in there close and keep it off your down light cans. 

 

Connections rarely go bad if in proper enclosed boxes and conduit where needed. Where it goes wrong is when the locals use electrical tape. This itself isn't bad here or in the west, but the tequnique employed here is. Solid core wire properly connected isn't going to go bad if done properly and there isn't any resistance. 99.9% of the time its the switch/fixture/outlet itself thats faulty because it has wear parts and contacts and heat. They sell wire nuts here but the locals will probably head-scratch over it. I use them, but sometimes its hard to get the guys here to try something new. "No Good" and feign like its "Too Hard". Things get screwey here because they end up with a fistful of wiring of all the same color and multiple circuits all with old gummy electrical tape. 

 

Not sure if you are using a Romex type of wire or individual wire in conduit (or both) but it sounds like you are going to have massive wiring bundles that are un necessary. 

 

Plug outlets need line and neutral but switches don't. Sounds like you want to daisy chain your outlets witch sounds fine to me but when you get into multiple lighting circuits and 3-way switches your gonna end up with connections in the ceiling because it will end up infuriatingly hard do use one single wire pulled through all that. 

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Grubster said:

Elementary school. Oversizing duct is just as bad as undersizing duct on the supply side. Large systems are identical to small systems only bigger. Running long lengths of flex duct is the biggest sin in the sheet metal industry today costing millions daily in wasted energy. You cannot make a long length of flex good, less bad only by a little.

 

You can not compare an industrial type installation to a residential one. There is nothing inherently wrong with flex if installed properly and over short runs (like a home) and through complicated spaces as long as its sized properly. There is a compromise with everything we do. Otherwise we would all live in high roofed refrigerators with a single door and no windows. 

[carlyai]

vhy not Papa? iss zere a speshul reason bekause yew don't like vires in ze zeiling?

You want me to get depressed....again ...... don't ya?

So according to this thread, all my wonderful design ideas are kaput!

Years ago, the thought was (in our backward country of Australia, where it gets hot sometimes), that the best roof, to keep the house cool was red concrete tiles. That's why all the houses had red roofs (except those owned by Khun Thai which were purple, orange etc).

So I built my roof with red coloured monier cement tiles. (horror horrow wrong I know and I will self flagulate later).

Also wrong I now know, I thought all that naughty hot air trapped in the ceiling was a bad idea, and I wanted exposed beams, so I thought to have as little ceiling space as possible. So I insulated under the roof, leaving the 2" gap between tiles and insulation, and had a small ceiling space.

Because I wanted lots of fans overhead I had to put all the lights on the walls, which I wanted anyway.

So I didn't have any wires in the ceiling.

Bit like this pic of the Pattaya house where we are now fixing up for a new tenant.



See I stuffed up, again, in the Pattaya house as have some down lights above the fans.

Anyway, depression over, quite like my Pattaya and Isaan roofs, even through all flawed designs.

Now I can't stuff up a pool design....can I?



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[Fookhaht]

55 minutes ago, Strange said:

There is a compromise with everything we do. Otherwise we would all live in high roofed refrigerators with a single door and no windows. 

Wow, great idea!

Signed,
Mr. Functional-Over-Aesthetics 

[Naam]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

Now I can't stuff up a pool design....can I?

there... there... you'll be frolicking in your pool sooner than you think.

[Grubster]

1 hour ago, Strange said:

 

Well, I know you will not ever insulate your ceiling, regardless of the fact that you are spending a fortune on your home, electrical, air-conditioning, and everything else and the evidence worldwide that says that its a good idea. Its not even that expensive when you look at the cost of your current outlay. Dont need to tape it up either. Just pack it in there close and keep it off your down light cans. 

 

Connections rarely go bad if in proper enclosed boxes and conduit where needed. Where it goes wrong is when the locals use electrical tape. This itself isn't bad here or in the west, but the tequnique employed here is. Solid core wire properly connected isn't going to go bad if done properly and there isn't any resistance. 99.9% of the time its the switch/fixture/outlet itself thats faulty because it has wear parts and contacts and heat. They sell wire nuts here but the locals will probably head-scratch over it. I use them, but sometimes its hard to get the guys here to try something new. "No Good" and feign like its "Too Hard". Things get screwey here because they end up with a fistful of wiring of all the same color and multiple circuits all with old gummy electrical tape. 

 

Not sure if you are using a Romex type of wire or individual wire in conduit (or both) but it sounds like you are going to have massive wiring bundles that are un necessary. 

 

Plug outlets need line and neutral but switches don't. Sounds like you want to daisy chain your outlets witch sounds fine to me but when you get into multiple lighting circuits and 3-way switches your gonna end up with connections in the ceiling because it will end up infuriatingly hard do use one single wire pulled through all that. 

If you have three wires in your outlet box than there will be nine in a box in the ceiling above each outlet, three from main, three down to the outlet and three to the next cluster above the next outlet, That is going to be hundreds of conections in the ceiling, very likely that one or two will fail. if so get the saw out. I have five outlet circuits for outlets, and three lighting circuits, there is no confusion about what wire goes where, your traveler on a three way is always a colored wire, red,blue,yellow, doesn't matter, The water heater wires are 4mm, the lights are 1.5mm so can't be confused with the 2.5 outlet wires. The ceiling lights are the same as outlets all the wires come and go from the light connection, have a bad connection just pull the light. I have used single braided wire in conduits but will pig tail solid wire from all outlets and lights for ease of instalation. there are zero conections above the ceiling  except where a light can be removed. I also have circuits for three water heaters that are uninterrupted from breaker to wall. My five AC units are wired underground to the units outside. Cant get any sweeter than that. I have only one 1" conduit mounted on any wall in the house, any and all circuits are in that and T off accordingly. This is very neat and efficient. I know this sounds hard but when you work backwards towards the main it all falls together pretty easy feeding conduits and fittings over the wires as you go by all the conduits sticking out off the wall. Much harder with hard wire though. I don't use a ground wire for lights. I have done it the same way with Romex and it is much easier but one rat could make a mess in a hurry here.  I may indeed insulate my ceiling some day but I doubt it, I was in the attic today and its not hot. Very sunny and 35 out.

[Grubster]

5 hours ago, Naam said:

vhy not Papa? iss zere a speshul reason bekause yew don't like vires in ze zeiling?

Only because when a connection in the ceiling fails and they do, than you have to remove the ceiling sonny boy. Of course there are wires in the ceiling, no connections in mine though.

[Grubster]

2 hours ago, Strange said:

 

You can not compare an industrial type installation to a residential one. There is nothing inherently wrong with flex if installed properly and over short runs (like a home) and through complicated spaces as long as its sized properly. There is a compromise with everything we do. Otherwise we would all live in high roofed refrigerators with a single door and no windows. 

Well Ive redone a few homes that couldn't cool because they used to much flex when built bran new and then the hillbilly that put it in couldn't  fix it so he just walks away.

[Naam]

1 hour ago, Grubster said:

Only because when a connection in the ceiling fails and they do, than you have to remove the ceiling sonny boy. Of course there are wires in the ceiling, no connections in mine though.

there's no such thing like removing a "ceiling" if an electric connection fails. actually i don't know what's the definition of "wires in the ceiling" is.

 

my ceilings are gypsum boards, no wires "in" them. all my wiring is above the ceilings and above the ceiling insulation in the attic. from there the wiring goes down in PVC conduits embedded in the wall. the pipes are not the usual ½" but ¾ and 1" providing ample space to add or remove wiring without hassle. that kind of work was carried out several times during the last three years to connect additional rooms and consuming gadgets to presently four inverters powered by battery banks. more to be installed soon.

 

so here's my question "where's the beef that requires ceiling removal?"

[Strange]

39 minutes ago, Naam said:

so here's my question "where's the beef that requires ceiling removal?"

 

I mean with an access panel and crawlspace up there, I don't get it either. 

[Linzz]

On 10/16/2016 at 11:57 PM, Naam said:

except the "stilted" (pun intended) fairy tale which keeps a home cooler by breezes passing under it

 

Yeah good pun. But there seems to be plenty of opinion on line that accepts it as fact. But that's OK, no need to convince you. I agree that a hole in the ground is cooling too in countries where the earth is cooler than the surrounding air. The natural extension of this are underground houses.Take your pick wherever you live. Nevertheless ancient methods are interesting which could reduce the expense for electrically driven aircons. Windcatchers are weird but interesting structures and black chimneys where naturally heated air can draw cooler air into a home is novel (though ancient). Methods are many and varied including dampened screens , water sources and courtyards, jaali, double walls and roofs and stepwells.

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/the-efficiency-of-ancient-passive-heating-and-cooling-techniques

Ancient airconditioners of Persia are worth a look if you like the unconventional. but there's a  modern one in Utah.

http://www.kuriositas.com/2012/06/windcatchers-of-persia.html