30,000 To Rally On Constitution Day To Demand Election

[ColPyat]

Supreme Commander Gen. Boonsrang Niempradit (บุญสร้าง เนียมประดิษฐ์) has requested time for the government to prove its work. He has also called for the Dec 10 rally to be suspended .

and previously:

Interior Minister Aree Wong-araya (อารีย์ วงศ์อารยะ) denied that the ministry has blacklisted some political activists in the North, saying that it was just a misunderstanding. The ministry has never done such thing and it has not blocked anyone from joining the December 10th rally against the government. There is nothing to be worried about as demonstrations are deemed not unlawful .

<deleted>?

[Tony Clifton]

There is curently no talk of states of emergency and indeed martial law has been relaxed.

There is hardly a need to declare a state of emergency as martial law supercedes it slightly.

Do you have a link that Thaksin has actually threatened to declare a state of emergency as a reaction of the PAD demonstrations, or was it just what the opponents have accused him off, similar to the fabulation of the "Finland declaration"?

Anyhow, what you call a "playing a canny and intelligent if hardball game in the media aimed at reducing the size of rallies and discrediting them" i feel is extremely worrying. The accusations against the opposition groups are completely out of any proportion, and partly pure fabrication.

Pot calling the cattle black?

KINGDOM'S POLITICAL STAND-OFF

Published on Mar 23, 2006

The Nation

The Cabinet recently appointed deputy premier and Justice Minister Chidchai Vanasatidya, who is in charge of security affairs, as second in command to Thaksin. Chidchai is expected to issue a decree declaring a state of emergency if the ongoing civil disturbances get out of control.

[Jai Dee]

Thai military leader advises patience over freedom of expression

BANGKOK, Dec 7 (TNA) - Thailand's Supreme Commander Boonsang Niempradit on Thursday urged members of anti-coup groups to exercise patience with regard to their right to freedom of expression so as to smooth the process of drafting a charter and strengthening the nation's democracy.

Gen Boonsang commented in response to the movement of members of various groups including academics and activists who have planned to stage the mass rally at Bangkok's Sanam Luang on December 10, which coincides with Thai Constitution Day, to protest against the September 19 coup.

The supreme commander urged those who are frustrated regarding national issues with which they are in disagreement to withhold their protests pending the important tasks on the national agenda that are yet to be completed.

Gen Boonsang said it will take several months to complete the draft of the new constitution. Furthermore, he explained, the unrest in the three southernmost provinces remains unresolved.

Attempts to rebuild national unity and reconciliation are yet to be achieved, he said. The nation accordingly cannot afford any more troubles.

If there are additional, unnecessary complications, damage will be caused to the national interest, he said.

"Let's be patient and practice toleration. Let the constitution writing and democratic foundation building be completed and move forward in full swing," Gen Boonsang said, adding that overt opposition during this sensitive period of time, even against seemingly trivial matters, would make it difficult to get things done.

Instead of opposition, the supreme commander said, the public should provide its moral support and contribution to the authorities who are both resolving the nation's problems, and pushing for political reform.

His reference to the coup-makers' Council for National Security and the interim government which the CNS established, suggested their pledge to be in power for only one year before returning power to the people by holding a general election late next year.

Source: TNA - 7 December 2006

[ColPyat]

There is curently no talk of states of emergency and indeed martial law has been relaxed.

There is hardly a need to declare a state of emergency as martial law supercedes it slightly.

Do you have a link that Thaksin has actually threatened to declare a state of emergency as a reaction of the PAD demonstrations, or was it just what the opponents have accused him off, similar to the fabulation of the "Finland declaration"?

Anyhow, what you call a "playing a canny and intelligent if hardball game in the media aimed at reducing the size of rallies and discrediting them" i feel is extremely worrying. The accusations against the opposition groups are completely out of any proportion, and partly pure fabrication.

Pot calling the cattle black?

KINGDOM'S POLITICAL STAND-OFF

Published on Mar 23, 2006

The Nation

The Cabinet recently appointed deputy premier and Justice Minister Chidchai Vanasatidya, who is in charge of security affairs, as second in command to Thaksin. Chidchai is expected to issue a decree declaring a state of emergency if the ongoing civil disturbances get out of control.

Sorry, but an article stating that Chidchai "is expected" to declare martial law is no substantiation whatsoever.

It just says that he is expected to, but by whom?

Is there a direct quote of Chidchai saying so?

[Jai Dee]

Anti-coup rally is giving a boost to two generals

Sunday's protest has failed to grip the public's imagination while strengthening junta's arm

The Sanam Luang rally planned for Sunday is supposed to oppose the September 19 seizure of power although paradoxically it seems to have generated huge publicity in favour of the two generals and coup leaders - Saprang Kalayanamitr and Montri Sangkhasap.

The rally also appears to have been stage-managed as a trap to lure deposed politicians out into the open exposing their subversive activities designed to cause havoc on the political landscape.

In fact, events surrounding the protest organisers and wild speculation on the potential anti-coup impact have gained so much public attention that the rally itself may become a non-event - come Sunday.

By the most optimistic estimate of lead organiser Chanapat na Nakhon, the rally is expected to attract less than 30,000 protesters - a crowd that would fill less than one-fourth of Sanam Luang.

Many pro-democracy advocates and academics have distanced themselves from the planned rally and indicated they might hold separate protests at various universities, including Thammasat.

Military and security authorities have predicted that the number of protesters will be in the thousands. They anticipate a small crowd after snooping into the funding sources of the protest organisers.

They are concerned about the possibility that deposed premier Thaksin Shinawatra might finance the rally from his Beijing exile. So far, this has not happened yet.

They have also uncovered that Thai Rak Thai Party bigwigs have not opened up their purse strings although party cohorts have made token contributions to encourage anti-coup activities.

The rally has been dominating news headlines in recent days because of the anticipation rather than the actual event.

Initially, individual activists and advocacy groups seen as close to Thai Rak Thai threatened to boost the rally - only to back down.

The Caravan of the Poor and local politicians from Tambon and Provincial Administrative Organisations have decided not to descend on the capital.

Track records of the protest organisers have raised questions rather than boost the credibility of the rally.

Chanapat used to be on the payroll of the Internal Security Operations Command when Thailand fought the Communist insurgency. After the end of Cold War, he reinvented himself as an activist crusading for various causes. Many see him as activist for hire.

Other protest organisers, including Sudchai Bunchai and Thepanom Siriwithayarak, claim to lead separate movements in opposing the coup.

Only Thepanom is a veteran of organising crowds on Thai Rak Thai's behalf and he has already withdrawn his support for the rally.

The September 19 Anti-Coup Network is a band of academics who make pro-democracy arguments and has not demonstrated any noticeable activities outside of academia.

Regardless of the actual security threat posed by the rally, Saprang and Montri have gained maximum media exposure as peacekeepers holding trouble makers at bay.

As assistant secretary of the Council for National Security, Saprang has highlighted his success in convincing various pressure groups and Thai Rak Thai remnants to tone down their opposition to the coup.

In his position as Army chief of staff, Montri is responsible for detecting and disrupting any links between deposed leaders and anti-coup activities. He has managed to verify funds channelling the anti-coup activities.

Other than winning public kudos for keeping the political situation under control, Saprang and Montri are also vying for promotion. The two are top contenders for the post of Army chief in October.

Source: The Nation - 8 December 2006

[hammered]

There is curently no talk of states of emergency and indeed martial law has been relaxed.

There is hardly a need to declare a state of emergency as martial law supercedes it slightly.

Do you have a link that Thaksin has actually threatened to declare a state of emergency as a reaction of the PAD demonstrations, or was it just what the opponents have accused him off, similar to the fabulation of the "Finland declaration"?

Anyhow, what you call a "playing a canny and intelligent if hardball game in the media aimed at reducing the size of rallies and discrediting them" i feel is extremely worrying. The accusations against the opposition groups are completely out of any proportion, and partly pure fabrication.

Pot calling the cattle black?

KINGDOM'S POLITICAL STAND-OFF

Published on Mar 23, 2006

The Nation

The Cabinet recently appointed deputy premier and Justice Minister Chidchai Vanasatidya, who is in charge of security affairs, as second in command to Thaksin. Chidchai is expected to issue a decree declaring a state of emergency if the ongoing civil disturbances get out of control.

Sorry, but an article stating that Chidchai "is expected" to declare martial law is no substantiation whatsoever.

It just says that he is expected to, but by whom?

Is there a direct quote of Chidchai saying so?

A quick google searh of thaksin state of emergency reveals 18,000 entires. Some of thses are about Mr. Thaksins attempt to actually do it as he was ousted. However, it also includes a few gems:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/a4d81df6-b307-11da...00779e2340.html

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/arch...3/15/2003297405

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002572.html

Howeevr, a full examination of the list is worthwhile as the threats and military's outspoken refusal to play ball are pretty well covered.

If one looks hard enough it is even possible to find the throwaway remark by one minister of what is the point of having an army if they wont support the government against demonstrators.

[ColPyat]

A quick google searh of thaksin state of emergency reveals 18,000 entires. Some of thses are about Mr. Thaksins attempt to actually do it as he was ousted. However, it also includes a few gems:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/a4d81df6-b307-11da...00779e2340.html

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/arch...3/15/2003297405

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002572.html

Howeevr, a full examination of the list is worthwhile as the threats and military's outspoken refusal to play ball are pretty well covered.

If one looks hard enough it is even possible to find the throwaway remark by one minister of what is the point of having an army if they wont support the government against demonstrators.

Good, finally one incident he did actually threaten a state of emergency:

Thaksin Shinawatra, Thailand’s embattled prime minister, on Tuesday warned that he was prepared to declare a state of emergency in Bangkok if the continuing mass protests against his leadership turn violent.

Interesting is the answer of Gen. Sonthi and the Army:

"There is no need for emergency rule. That would only hurt the country's image, and the army does not agree with the idea of emergency rule ," army commander General Sonthi Boonyaratglin told reporters.

Thailand's top military chief, Supreme Commander Ruengroj Mahasaranond, said emergency rule was meant only for very serious situations and not for non-violent protests like the one currently facing Thaksin.

"The armed forces are under the king and we do everything for the sake of the people. Emergency rule can be declared only if the country is in a riot situation, or if there were an arson attack on public buildings," he said.

Both military leaders have repeatedly assured the public that the armed forces would not step into the political crisis, seeking to ease fears of a coup in a country with a long and relatively recent history of military governments.

Which gets me back to my original point - pot calling the cattle black?

[ColPyat]

Back to the topic.

Just now in the news, channel 7, were pictures how the army was controlling every road upcountry to Bangkok, searching busses and cars in anticipation of the Dec. 10 demonstration. The reason given was the usual "undercurrents".

Also, there was an appeal to the public to report any "suspicious" group group that might disturb peace and create upheaval.

I don't know, but am i alone here in the opinion that this is a slight over reaction towards groups that have so far drawn not more than a few dozen, at most 200 hundred supporters, and only in one incident, during one march, about 500 people?

[lukamar]

I don't know, but am i alone here in the opinion that this is a slight over reaction towards groups that have so far drawn not more than a few dozen, at most 200 hundred supporters, and only in one incident, during one march, about 500 people?

I don't think you are alone. It's interesting that after all this time the coup leaders are still apparently worried about loosing control, maybe they think they have never really had it . One thing they will do by stopping people who are traveling is remind them that they are no longer in a free country. No matter how bad you thought Thaksin was he could have used the same heavy handed tactic during the PAD rallies, and he chose not too allowing them to voice their opinions.

[Plus]

Maybe they are not afraid of losing control, maybe they are afraid they will have to finally assert it. They just don't want thousands of people demonstrating. It doesn't look good.

They are not reacting to the usual demonstrators, only to hired ones. Even if mobs for hire were paid and fed, and given free booze and free rides to the capital, it still might confuse some peopel that there's a genuine movement against the junta. They don't want that.

It's not so much the freedom of expression, it's freedom to create disturbance they are curtailing.

[Jai Dee]

Maj. Gen. Chamlong believes Dec 10 rally will not prolong for long

Gen. Saprang Kanlayanamitr (สพรั่ง กัลยาณมิตร) indicated that it is imperative to look into the objectives of the December 10 rally, whether it is purely intentional, voicing its disagreement over the bloodless coup; or there are political manoeuvrings behind the motive. At the same time, Maj. Gen. Chamlong Srimuang believes the gathering will not prolong, and may be just a one-off demonstration against the actions of the Council for National Security (CNS).

Maj. Gen. Chamlong, who is also member of the National Legislative Assembly, suggested the present government addresses the crowd as well, to create better understands amongst all.

He further added that the government should just concentrate on its work rather than put too much emphasis on minor details as there are only a little more than 200 days before its term expires.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 08 December 2006

[Jai Dee]

Gen Surayud confident Army can control Dec 10 rally if violence occurs

Prime Minister Gen. Surayud Chulanont said he is not too worried about the upcoming December 10 rally. He further added that he believes the rally will not escalate. Gen Surayud however said about 3-4 troops will be deployed to the Sanam Luang area where the rally will be held, to ensure security for all participants.

The prime minister also revealed that the government will look into the overall situation, while the Ministry of Interior, Ministry of Defence and Royal Thai Police will work together in regulating the rally.

Gen Surayud said he believes that violence will not escalate and that he is willing to create better understandings with the opposition groups.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 08 December 2006

[Jai Dee]

Third Army chief orders Phisanulok police to block protesters from reaching Bangkok

The third army area commander has instructed the Phitsanulok police chief to set up checkpoints on main roads leading to Bangkok to block provincial people from joining the protest in Bangkok on Sunday.

A well-informed source said the Phitsanulok police chief had been instructed to cooperate with soldiers to set up road checkpoints from 6 pm everyday since Friday.

Source: The Nation - 8 December 2006

[ColPyat]

Maybe they are not afraid of losing control, maybe they are afraid they will have to finally assert it. They just don't want thousands of people demonstrating. It doesn't look good.

The irony is almost unbearable.

During the PAD demonstations we have had the endless arguments about the right to demonstrate. Poster 'Plus' and others argued to the teeth with me when i dared to mention that the aim of the PAD is far from democratic (even though is did not argue with the right to demonstrate, just being of the opinion that those demonstrations went too far, and might lead to a coup), and poster 'Plus' defended the democratic right to demonstrate.

Now, a few months later, poster 'Plus' is so fast to point out that demonstrations against the coup leaders "don't look good", that democracy maybe is not the best for Thailand because the "people failed the country" etc.

Selective hypocracy in extreme.

[ColPyat]

Third Army chief orders Phisanulok police to block protesters from reaching Bangkok

The third army area commander has instructed the Phitsanulok police chief to set up checkpoints on main roads leading to Bangkok to block provincial people from joining the protest in Bangkok on Sunday.

A well-informed source said the Phitsanulok police chief had been instructed to cooperate with soldiers to set up road checkpoints from 6 pm everyday since Friday.

Source: The Nation - 8 December 2006

I honestly hope that this is just another unresearched article by The Nation (which would not be the first time). Otherwise this is clearly more exreme than Thaksin has done regarding the PAD demonstrations.

If that is really true actions such as this do actually create "undercurrents".

[hammered]

I don't know, but am i alone here in the opinion that this is a slight over reaction towards groups that have so far drawn not more than a few dozen, at most 200 hundred supporters, and only in one incident, during one march, about 500 people?

I don't think you are alone. It's interesting that after all this time the coup leaders are still apparently worried about loosing control, maybe they think they have never really had it . One thing they will do by stopping people who are traveling is remind them that they are no longer in a free country. No matter how bad you thought Thaksin was he could have used the same heavy handed tactic during the PAD rallies, and he chose not too allowing them to voice their opinions.

Hi Luk

Glad to see you back again. By the way Mr. Thaksin did employ exactly the same tactic against PAD supporters. Police roadblocks stopped and repeatedly searched buses coming from the South, East and Center and often turned back. The most famous case, but onne amongst many occurred in Sae Kaew province where while the police were trying to do it a PAD leader managed to get some media to turn up and report on the incident. It is good to see that the current government are open enough to allow reporting of what they are doing unlike the previous government.

[hammered]

Third Army chief orders Phisanulok police to block protesters from reaching Bangkok

The third army area commander has instructed the Phitsanulok police chief to set up checkpoints on main roads leading to Bangkok to block provincial people from joining the protest in Bangkok on Sunday.

A well-informed source said the Phitsanulok police chief had been instructed to cooperate with soldiers to set up road checkpoints from 6 pm everyday since Friday.

Source: The Nation - 8 December 2006

I honestly hope that this is just another unresearched article by The Nation (which would not be the first time). Otherwise this is clearly more exreme than Thaksin has done regarding the PAD demonstrations.

If that is really true actions such as this do actually create "undercurrents".

Funnily enough I had to drive South from the North to Bangkok via Phitsanaloke on the day before a PAD demo earlier in the year. Suffice to say there was a very large road block with extensive searches on that day. I see little difference if todays report is accurate. The truth is both Mr. Thaksin and the current government have used the roadblock tactic and probably governments before them.

By the way the rally has been cancelled.

[ColPyat]

Funnily enough I had to drive South from the North to Bangkok via Phitsanaloke on the day before a PAD demo earlier in the year. Suffice to say there was a very large road block with extensive searches on that day. I see little difference if todays report is accurate. The truth is both Mr. Thaksin and the current government have used the roadblock tactic and probably governments before them.

By the way the rally has been cancelled.

Thaksin was though a bit more sneaky in doing it. He never admitted in public that he did it, and accused the PAD of having fabricated the accusations.

Rally cancelled, well, well, well, lets see.

I guess it would anyhow been a bit of a non-event.

[jumnien]

The fabulous anti-Thaksin brigade courageously saves Thailand from the ravages of democracy and now those ungrateful ninnies want an election! When will this all stop?

[hammered]

Funnily enough I had to drive South from the North to Bangkok via Phitsanaloke on the day before a PAD demo earlier in the year. Suffice to say there was a very large road block with extensive searches on that day. I see little difference if todays report is accurate. The truth is both Mr. Thaksin and the current government have used the roadblock tactic and probably governments before them.

By the way the rally has been cancelled.

Thaksin was though a bit more sneaky in doing it. He never admitted in public that he did it, and accused the PAD of having fabricated the accusations.

Rally cancelled, well, well, well, lets see.

I guess it would anyhow been a bit of a non-event.

I kind of agree with you there. Personally I think this whole thing has been a little skirmish more about events in future. No doubt there were even rally organizers not connected to TRT, but with their groups small in number. The TRT people were probably testing out what kind of reaction they would get if they staged a rally, and maybe to some degree seeing how much organization they still had operable and reliable in assembling a group, and the government and military were trying to show they were going to make things a lot harder than they had to date.

[ColPyat]

I kind of agree with you there.

Ups.

I am really sorry about that.

[chownah]

What I don't understand is that I thought that the junta said it was OK to have political rallies now and yet they act like they are subversive and should be stopped....if I was a southern radical I certainly would not trust these people to do anything but lie to me to get me out in the open and then eliminate me.....it seems to me they can't be trusted.

Chownah

[Plus]

There's a difference between people demonstrating their political convictions and aspirations - PAD and current anti-coup protesters, and paid mobs bused in to pretend that there is a demonstration.

Similar to the huge TRT rally back in March. There was nothing democratic about it and if it was forbidden no one's rights would have been infringed.

Ninnies who want election in 30 days are not ninnies. They are either idiots or have been paid to spout such nonsense.

Remember that even without a coup the elections were postponed, possibly to around Christmas. We would still have no senate and no parlament and a caretaker government well beyond it's constitutionally allowed mandate (two months I believe).

[Thaddeus]

A certain individual has been quite active in the Buriram area recently, I shall not name him, neither will I make any claims to knowing the incentive offered for gaining some support.

It has been met with abject apathy.... the locals don't care anymore, are they finally waking up, or, and this would be worse (QED) have they stopped believing in politicians..... or would that be better?

I rather think it would.

[ColPyat]

Similar to the huge TRT rally back in March. There was nothing democratic about it and if it was forbidden no one's rights would have been infringed.

Nothing democratic?!

It may be a rather strange concept for you, but freedom of assembly and the right of free speach also counts for your opponents, even if you don't agree with them.

[Plus]

It wasn't their desire to assemble in the first place. Or would you call a mob around Nation offices who thought they were protesting against a battery company an expression of democratic aspirations, too?

This kind of argument is insulting to anyone's intellegence.

There's no right to create fake demonstrations, and if it threatens nation's stability, then it's explicitly forbidden, even under democartic constitution.

No one is stopping people demonstrating in good faith, even under martial law there were allowed to express themselves.

[ColPyat]

It wasn't their desire to assemble in the first place. Or would you call a mob around Nation offices who thought they were protesting against a battery company an expression of democratic aspirations, too?

This kind of argument is insulting to anyone's intellegence.

There's no right to create fake demonstrations, and if it threatens nation's stability, then it's explicitly forbidden, even under democartic constitution.

No one is stopping people demonstrating in good faith, even under martial law there were allowed to express themselves.

Now you mixing up two issues.

The huge TRT rally you mentioned first was very orderly and peaceful, and most, if not all participants were genuinly TRT supporters, paid or not.

The Nation blockade was a disgrace, indeed.

But i would not judge the 'Caravan of the Poor' simply as hired hooligans. Most of the participants were simple farmers from very poor backgrounds with rightful grieviances, and no other avenue to voice them.

And yes, they were duped by the likes of Newin. I honestly do not know how many of the farmers were delivering the infamous threats, and how many were really hired hooligans mixed up in the crowd. I can only say that when i spoke with the farmers at one of their campsites, i have not encountered these hooligans.

[Plus]

The huge TRT rally you mentioned first was very orderly and peaceful, and most, if not all participants were genuinly TRT supporters, paid or not.

It was better organised and they were TRT supporters, true, but they didn't come out there on their own, they didn't plan it, they didn't "join".

They could have been brought in for ANY purpose and told to campaign for any cause, it was a case of organisation, not expression of political will.

Kim Jol Il has better organised parades but it doesn't make him democratic.

[jumnien]

The huge TRT rally you mentioned first was very orderly and peaceful, and most, if not all participants were genuinly TRT supporters, paid or not.

It was better organised and they were TRT supporters, true, but they didn't come out there on their own, they didn't plan it, they didn't "join".

They could have been brought in for ANY purpose and told to campaign for any cause, it was a case of organisation, not expression of political will.

Kim Jol Il has better organised parades but it doesn't make him democratic.

And the soldiers who drove the 14 tanks into Bangkok, do you think they were freely expressing their political will or were they perhaps "organized"?

[ColPyat]

The huge TRT rally you mentioned first was very orderly and peaceful, and most, if not all participants were genuinly TRT supporters, paid or not.

It was better organised and they were TRT supporters, true, but they didn't come out there on their own, they didn't plan it, they didn't "join".

They could have been brought in for ANY purpose and told to campaign for any cause, it was a case of organisation, not expression of political will.

Kim Jol Il has better organised parades but it doesn't make him democratic.

You contradict yourself again. In the first paragraph you state that they were TRT supporters, and in the next you state that they could have been brought to any purpose. I don't think so.

And what is the problem with them being brought there from their villages and hometowns in busses in an organised way? As long as they don't turn violent i don't see that an law is broken.

Or do you demand that in order to come to Bangkok they have to pay their own way, and the ones who can't are not allowed to show support to the politician they prefer?

Are only wealthy people allowed an opinion and to publically show that opinion?