May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

All the British expat groups support the amendment 

 All of the groups,are you sure?

[citybiker]

Who exactly is asking for punishment? We've been through this. It's the UK dumb press winding people up. Last time, one statement from a junior French minister was unearthed and even that was not a threat per se.

 

The Europeans with whom I chat from time to time are more embarrassed for us than angry. We just appear silly.

Thankfully, I don't get wound up over 'any' media/press U.K. or otherwise, I seek for clarity, factual and ideally up to date relevant information.

Excuse the fact I've entered this debate rather late if previously covered however there is various sources stating how the UK should be punished following the June 23rd result, including prior warnings, scaremongering and the fact the EU wishes to make the UK and example to thwart off any other members considering the exit route.

It's fairly obvious that Brexit is being monitored globally as the issue is so serious strategically as it's unknown territory for both the UK & EU.

In summary, even Junker is finally waking up and smelling the coffee with his latest blueprint white paper: the EU, it's future. If I can supply a link I will however it's blantantly clear that a chaotic, unstable and unharmonious EU is focusing on self interests.

Lastly, were simply separating from the political EU, not leaving Europe and if some Europeans feel embarrassed about us that's their issue, I don't wish to see a damaged UK or EU relationship, working in an improved relationship with our neighbours is pragmatically ideal, however I'm a realist and fully aware of the rocky road that lays ahead for both parties involved.

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[Grouse]

15 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Thankfully, I don't get wound up over 'any' media/press U.K. or otherwise, I seek for clarity, factual and ideally up to date relevant information.

Excuse the fact I've entered this debate rather late if previously covered however there is various sources stating how the UK should be punished following the June 23rd result, including prior warnings, scaremongering and the fact the EU wishes to make the UK and example to thwart off any other members considering the exit route.

It's fairly obvious that Brexit is being monitored globally as the issue is so serious strategically as it's unknown territory for both the UK & EU.

In summary, even Junker is finally waking up and smelling the coffee with his latest blueprint white paper: the EU, it's future. If I can supply a link I will however it's blantantly clear that a chaotic, unstable and unharmonious EU is focusing on self interests.

Lastly, were simply separating from the political EU, not leaving Europe and if some Europeans feel embarrassed about us that's their issue, I don't wish to see a damaged UK or EU relationship, working in an improved relationship with our neighbours is pragmatically ideal, however I'm a realist and fully aware of the rocky road that lays ahead for both parties involved.

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OK, that's a balanced view.

 

Some UK organs have used the term punishment when all that has been consistently stated is that the UK can not have a better deal as a non member than a member. What's wrong with that?

 

We've had a Goldilocks relationship with the EU to date with all our opt outs. We're still not satisfied; so should leave!

 

Many have have expressed their embarrassment to me. I do understand. If you have children you will also understand. But, all part of growing up.

[citybiker]

OK, that's a balanced view.
 
Some UK organs have used the term punishment when all that has been consistently stated is that the UK can not have a better deal as a non member than a member. What's wrong with that?
 
We've had a Goldilocks relationship with the EU to date with all our opt outs. We're still not satisfied; so should leave!
 
Many have have expressed their embarrassment to me. I do understand. If you have children you will also understand. But, all part of growing up.

Yes, my children are still growing up and very much learning about awareness, facts and life's education, some harsh truths.

To be fair, having an amicable divorce after 40+ years is highly likely to be challenging however it's achievable.

Being a non-member releases any clauses and restrictions placed upon us, having an improved global opportunity without the EU political interference.

Let's also not forget the EU's completely incapable and unfit for purpose in its current form when dealing with certain crisis.


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[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Oh dear, we're off again. Not so much as a squawk when it was not far short of 1.26 a few days ago.

2.5% drop is noisy.

[Khun Han]

12 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

2.5% drop is noisy.

 

But a sharp rise is a quiet as a mouse?

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

But a sharp rise is a quiet as a mouse?

Sterling right now below 2016 'ravage' points (other than the flash crash):

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/sterlings-punishment-five-charts-that-show-how-the-pound-has-been-ravaged-by-brexit-a7350251.html

[Khun Han]

15 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Sterling right now below 2016 'ravage' points (other than the flash crash):

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/sterlings-punishment-five-charts-that-show-how-the-pound-has-been-ravaged-by-brexit-a7350251.html

 

Like I said, you only go on about Sterling when it's movement fits your remain agenda. When it rose after PM May's hard brexit announcement, your keyboard was dormant.

[Flustered]

I have come to the conclusion that some (a minority) of FMs have trouble understanding a certain fact.

 

There will be only one (1) agreement that will encompass everything. The EU (Junkers for one) have stated categorically (and we have agreed) that we will not be able to cherry pick. It's all or nothing.

 

Several countries have made it clear that whatever happens they will not sign up to the agreement thus rendering it null and void. Theresa May has already hinted that we will have no option but a hard Brexit not due to anything on our part, but down to these countries who are scared stiff that another will leave soon thus ending the hand outs.

 

So, we give the EU nationals full rights and benefits and as EU law applies to all other 27 countries and there is no agreement, our UK nationals in the EU are stuffed and mounted simply because some people want to feel warm and happy inside. In other words, 1.2 million UK nationals are to be sacrificed for as someone put it "the moral high ground".

 

You cannot separate the future of the EU nationals from the future of the UK ones. The Commons and the Lords have a duty of care to their own citizens.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Flustered

[SheungWan]

59 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Like I said, you only go on about Sterling when it's movement fits your remain agenda. When it rose after PM May's hard brexit announcement, your keyboard was dormant.

Theresa May made a hard Brexit speech on January 17. My contribution on January 17:

 

Do you remember all those hard brexiteer forum contributions saying that the movement of sterling signaled nothing very much?

 

 

Srikcir and Grouse like this

•  

[Khun Han]

51 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Theresa May made a hard Brexit speech on January 17. My contribution on January 17:

 

Do you remember all those hard brexiteer forum contributions saying that the movement of sterling signaled nothing very much?

 

 

Srikcir and Grouse like this

•  

 

That's a graph of share indexes, not a graph of Sterling's performance. Please try harder.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Flustered said:

I have come to the conclusion that some (a minority) of FMs have trouble understanding a certain fact.

 

There will be only one (1) agreement that will encompass everything. The EU (Junkers for one) have stated categorically (and we have agreed) that we will not be able to cherry pick. It's all or nothing.

 

Several countries have made it clear that whatever happens they will not sign up to the agreement thus rendering it null and void. Theresa May has already hinted that we will have no option but a hard Brexit not due to anything on our part, but down to these countries who are scared stiff that another will leave soon thus ending the hand outs.

 

So, we give the EU nationals full rights and benefits and as EU law applies to all other 27 countries and there is no agreement, our UK nationals in the EU are stuffed and mounted simply because some people want to feel warm and happy inside. In other words, 1.2 million UK nationals are to be sacrificed for as someone put it "the moral high ground".

 

You cannot separate the future of the EU nationals from the future of the UK ones. The Commons and the Lords have a duty of care to their own citizens.

Oh well, why didn't you say?

 

Let the mass migrations begin

 

I can just see millions of EU and UK citizens trudging across Europe with those carts that refugees always seem to have.

 

There will never be any kind of deal, no quid pro quo.

 

But, hey, at least we will have control! Cue Jerusalem please....

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

That's a graph of share indexes, not a graph of Sterling's performance. Please try harder.

For those who can read, the heading on the graph states the graph shows the divergence of the FTSE 100 and the FTSE 250 that day when the pound moved. This was (and is) in context of the differing overseas proportional content of the two indices which react differently to movements in sterling. There was quite an extensive discussion around the issue at that time. A little less intellectual laziness please when next making ad hominem forays. Maybe third time lucky.

Edited March 3, 2017 by SheungWan

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

They could have done if they were registered voters.

 

A thought for you Sandy.

 

How many of them do you think are still registered voters and how many of them bothered to vote? Personally I don't have a clue, but I do know that I had the right to vote and instructed my proxy voter which way I wanted to vote.

 

I did and I live in Thailand. 3 weeks ago I got a letter from Somerset County Council Electoral Registration reminding me to re-register which I did online.

That is exactly the point Bill, those that had been out of the country for more than 15 years were refused permission to register. Remember the court case, the court ruled in favour of the government on the basis of inadequate records. Bit strange that shortly after the case the 15 year ruling was dropped.

I take your point that we do not know how many did or would have voted but I would have thought that with their future at risk a large percentage would have made the effort.

 

I registered and voted in person and have also received the reminder. I haven't re-registered as I didn't realise that my proxy would have to travel to the polling station for my old address. If I do want to vote again I can always register again. I hate to say this but its an indication of the pathetic state of UK politics that if a general election came up I wouldn't know which way to go.

[Grouse]

Meanwhile,

 

Zero hours contracts up 14% over the previous year to over one million.

 

Police funding down on average by 20%. Many crimes just being ignored as police prioritise due to cash shortage.

 

The budget will be interesting. Let's see what the Con Party do as the self styled party of the working man ......

[Grouse]

20 hours ago, citybiker said:

*Lord Tebbit: people of nationalities of other countries within the union are foreigners.

Why is everybody here today so excited about an amendment that looks after the foreigners and not the British.

All those Lords remoaners stating why should foreigners face an certainly for at least 2 years during negotiations....

Nothing mentioned about concerned overseas British citizens, their rights and welfare?

It beggars belief...

* Metro


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More on that nice Mr Tebbit! 

Sorry, I meant Lord Tebbit. ?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-peer-lord-norman-tebbit-eu-citizens-right-to-stay-brexit-bill-immigrant-workers-home-a7607466.html%3Famp

Edited March 3, 2017 by Grouse

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Nissan could face $620 million Brexit hit: http://tinyurl.com/hmsmwdh

Very unlikely, every chance their brexit bill will be the cost of relocation, subsidised by the EU.

[sandyf]

TM's idea of listening to the devolved administrations.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39147672

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

TM's idea of listening to the devolved administrations.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39147672

How many MPs to the Con Party have in Scotland again? I forget...

[Khun Han]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

For those who can read, the heading on the graph states the graph shows the divergence of the FTSE 100 and the FTSE 250 that day when the pound moved. This was (and is) in context of the differing overseas proportional content of the two indices which react differently to movements in sterling. There was quite an extensive discussion around the issue at that time. A little less intellectual laziness please when next making ad hominem forays. Maybe third time lucky.

 

No mention by you in the relevant post which way Sterling moved, although if it had moved downward, there would have been a big, bold graph in your post showing it's movement. Instead, you had to find something else that fitted your remain agenda, because Sterling rising with an announcement of hard brexit didn't fit it. You are so predictable.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

That is exactly the point Bill, those that had been out of the country for more than 15 years were refused permission to register. Remember the court case, the court ruled in favour of the government on the basis of inadequate records. Bit strange that shortly after the case the 15 year ruling was dropped.

I take your point that we do not know how many did or would have voted but I would have thought that with their future at risk a large percentage would have made the effort.

 

I registered and voted in person and have also received the reminder. I haven't re-registered as I didn't realise that my proxy would have to travel to the polling station for my old address. If I do want to vote again I can always register again. I hate to say this but its an indication of the pathetic state of UK politics that if a general election came up I wouldn't know which way to go.

 

Sandy, that 15 years rule has been around since Pontious was a pilot and TBH it was about time it was changed.

 

I have the same problem as you at the next election.

 

IMHO

 

Labour, no chance.

 

UKIP, will get my vote most probably

 

Lib/Dems, the day before yesterdays people. not worth bothering with.

 

Conservatives, if Theresa May pulls something decent out of the Brexit I may vote for them.

 

The other parties are also rans and not worth bothering with.

 

SNP, trying to self destruct and take the rest of the UK with them. It might work well in Scotland but not in the rest of the UK. Wee Nicola Krankie is her own worst enemy other than Alex Salmond.

 

Picking the right party to lead the country next election will be like trying to pin the tail on the donkey whilst blindfolded, down a coal mine at midnight with the wind blowing the donkey everyway.

 

OTOH there are a lot of donkeys out there in UK politics.

 

Have a great weekend.

[SheungWan]

12 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

No mention by you in the relevant post which way Sterling moved, although if it had moved downward, there would have been a big, bold graph in your post showing it's movement. Instead, you had to find something else that fitted your remain agenda, because Sterling rising with an announcement of hard brexit didn't fit it. You are so predictable.

 

Maybe Grouse is right and its all down to a lack of education but some people just stay in that hole and keep on digging. Here is another of my contributions from same day January 17:

 

Posted January 17 · Report post

On 1/17/2017 at 9:21 PM, jpinx said:

You're usually glued to the FX rates - what did it do during TM's speech?  ...and what does that tell you?

I so have to do all the heavy lifting for you guys.  Sterling's bounce tells us that the markets are mightily relieved that TM appears to have abandoned the Government's anti-parliamentary stance ahead of the Supreme Court decision. Also  a clear(ish) stance moving forwards. Previously trying to be enigmatic wasn't helping at all. Actually a couple of commentators on Bloomberg were calling sterling oversold ahead of the announcements but that still doesn't detract from a 2+% bounce.

[Khun Han]

6 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Maybe Grouse is right and its all down to a lack of education but some people just stay in that hole and keep on digging. Here is another of my contributions from same day January 17:

 

Posted January 17 · Report post

I so have to do all the heavy lifting for you guys.  Sterling's bounce tells us that the markets are mightily relieved that TM appears to have abandoned the Government's anti-parliamentary stance ahead of the Supreme Court decision. Also  a clear(ish) stance moving forwards. Previously trying to be enigmatic wasn't helping at all. Actually a couple of commentators on Bloomberg were calling sterling oversold ahead of the announcements but that still doesn't detract from a 2+% bounce.

 

Ok, I'll give you that one. But your main thrust was to spin the rise into an anti-brexit one. And, of course, there was no graph .

[dick dasterdly]

12 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Sandy, that 15 years rule has been around since Pontious was a pilot and TBH it was about time it was changed.

 

I have the same problem as you at the next election.

 

IMHO

 

Labour, no chance.

 

UKIP, will get my vote most probably

 

Lib/Dems, the day before yesterdays people. not worth bothering with.

 

Conservatives, if Theresa May pulls something decent out of the Brexit I may vote for them.

 

The other parties are also rans and not worth bothering with.

 

SNP, trying to self destruct and take the rest of the UK with them. It might work well in Scotland but not in the rest of the UK. Wee Nicola Krankie is her own worst enemy other than Alex Salmond.

 

Picking the right party to lead the country next election will be like trying to pin the tail on the donkey whilst blindfolded, down a coal mine at midnight with the wind blowing the donkey everyway.

 

OTOH there are a lot of donkeys out there in UK politics.

 

Have a great weekend.

I gave up voting at General Elections a while ago, on the basis that they're all as bad as each other .

 

It would probably be far better if the vast majority of the electorate just didn't vote - as this way there is a chance that the political parties would be forced to realise they've lost all credibility with the voting public.

Edited March 3, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[evadgib]

The 15 year Malarky still stands. With the number of expats (I don't like that description in this instance) likely to grow as more people find it necessary to retire abroad I cannot understand why technology cannot be embraced allowing everyone to be heard as per a true democracy; especially if they remain British with non-immigrant status in their chosen abode. Their numbers alone would fill almost 100 average Parliamentary constituencies & that's just the frozen pensioners!

 

HMG won't get away with this forever...

 

https://www.gov.uk/voting-when-abroad

 

 

[billd766]

39 minutes ago, evadgib said:

The 15 year Malarky still stands. With the number of expats (I don't like that description in this instance) likely to grow as more people find it necessary to retire abroad I cannot understand why technology cannot be embraced allowing everyone to be heard as per a true democracy; especially if they remain British with non-immigrant status in their chosen abode. Their numbers alone would fill almost 100 average Parliamentary constituencies & that's just the frozen pensioners!

 

HMG won't get away with this forever...

 

https://www.gov.uk/voting-when-abroad

 

 

 

They might "donate" a couple of non party seats foe ALL the expats as a sop and then nothing would happen as the MPs would always be outvoted and ignored.

[nontabury]

13 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

They might "donate" a couple of non party seats foe ALL the expats as a sop and then nothing would happen as the MPs would always be outvoted and ignored.

I believe that there are MP's representing their ex-pats in the Italian and French parliaments. Probably elsewhere also.

[sandyf]

20 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

They might "donate" a couple of non party seats foe ALL the expats as a sop and then nothing would happen as the MPs would always be outvoted and ignored.

The whole setup for the referendum was cockeyed. They discussed the issue before the referendum bill but couldn't do anythging because of 'practical difficulties' which were somehow resolved by the introduction of an simple attestation within weeks of the referendum.

In April

" The two judges at London's High Court said in Thursday's ruling that they accepted the government's argument that there were "significant practical difficulties about adopting - especially for this referendum - a new electoral register which includes non-resident British citizens whose last residence the United Kingdom was more than 15 years ago."

http://www.dw.com/en/uk-long-term-expats-lose-bid-to-scrap-15-year-voting-rule-ahead-of-eu-referendum/a-19222308

 

In May 2016 the goverment said this.

"Downing Street welcomed the Supreme Court's ruling, saying the matter was discussed as part of the passage of the Referendum Bill and debated at length.

"The result of that discussion in Parliament and the vote was that people who left the UK more than 15 years ago would not be eligible to vote. We welcome the fact that the decision has been upheld," the prime minister's official spokesman said."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-36370522

 

But they gave an estimated one million people without any British citizenship the right to vote.

 

And then in October 2016 the government said this.

" I am delighted to publish the detail of our plans to implement our manifesto commitment to introduce votes for life, scrapping the rule that bars British citizens who have lived abroad for more than 15 years from voting. British citizens living abroad retain strong links with the United Kingdom: they may have family here, and indeed they may plan to return here in the future. Equally, there are many British citizens abroad who have fought for our country, dedicating their lives to our armed services. Their stake in our country must be respected."

http://theibizan.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/overseas_electors_policy_statement.pdf

[Flustered]

10 hours ago, Grouse said:

I can just see millions of EU and UK citizens trudging across Europe with those carts that refugees always seem to have.

 

So at last you have admitted/accepted that you would sacrifice the 1.2 million UK nationals in the EU just to make yourself feel big hearted.

 

There does not have to be any form of migration. Theresa May has stated on record that she wants to give the EU nationals in the UK security.

 

The EU refuse point blank to discuss the UK nationals security.

 

It is your heroine Frau Merkle who has put the boot in and refused to even discuss the matter until article 50 is triggered.

 

I guess at the end of the day you just do not care about UK nationals and are happy to see them evicted from their homes in the EU. What an upstanding, moral person you are.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Flustered

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

Ok, I'll give you that one. But your main thrust was to spin the rise into an anti-brexit one. And, of course, there was no graph .

Worth a cold beer.