May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Grouse]

http://www.bbc.com/news/39990986

 

food for thought?

[citybiker]

The EEC in its original form & format was attractive to all concerned.

However, over the years it's developed into a MEP gravy train with unregulated, unelected and unaccountable interfering overruling dictatorship.



Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, citybiker said:

The EEC in its original form & format was attractive to all concerned.

However, over the years it's developed into a MEP gravy train with unregulated, unelected and unaccountable interfering overruling dictatorship.



Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk
 

At least the MEP's are fairly elected in their own countries. The rest is a democratic sham!

Edited May 21, 2017 by nauseus

[Loaded]

12 hours ago, nauseus said:

At least the MEP's are fairly elected in their own countries. The rest is a democratic sham!

and just 76 meps to represent a UK population of 60 million +

[SheungWan]

27 minutes ago, Loaded said:

and just 76 meps to represent a UK population of 60 million +

Well isn't that terrible. Works out at 1 MEP for approx 789,000 voters. As compared to the USA of 1 Congressman in the House of Representatives for approx 737,000 voters if averaged out. (US pop ~ 321m/435 reps)

Edited May 22, 2017 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

13 hours ago, citybiker said:

The EEC in its original form & format was attractive to all concerned.

However, over the years it's developed into a MEP gravy train with unregulated, unelected and unaccountable interfering overruling dictatorship.



Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk
 

'Dictatorship'.

[Srikcir]

35 minutes ago, Loaded said:

just 76 meps to represent a UK population of 60 million +

So what - in the UN the UK gets only one ambassador representing 60+ million.

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

So why do you think the 'tax take' increased after reducing the rate payable?

 

I'm sure you don't believe it was because the companies concerned directed their accountants to not worry as much about the tax paid as the rate was lower?

No personal thoughts on the increase but the theory is that the reduction in rate boosted investment and increased profits leading to greater revenues. I suspect that any effect from this years reduction will get lost in the chaos.

 

Personally I think that there should be more consideration given to how companies are taxed. Rather than a simple reduction there should be rebates for targeted improvements, such as increasing the workforce or productivity.

Also, and in line with what I think you were hinting at, stricter control of questionable directors. The whole concept of having a highly paid job, company car and other benefits for showing your face a couple of hours a year is absolutely scandalous. It is this type of activity that gets business a bad name.

 

Unfortunately,  HMRC is in the same boat as all other services, underfunded.  They cannot cope with the current workload far less bring in regulation that would increase it.

They have yet to put a figure on the cost of leaving the customs union. Last estimate I saw was for 5000 additional officers, but more of a guesstimate. Obviously brexit can be funded but no money to deal with existing problems.

 

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, nauseus said:

At least the MEP's are fairly elected in their own countries. The rest is a democratic sham!

So in your opinion the European Council is a bunch of unelected bureaucrats and a democratic sham.

 

"The European Council, charged with defining the EU's overall political direction and priorities,"

 

[sandyf]

Project Fear - straight from the horses mouth. Who has put the "economic security of ordinary working people" in jeopardy?

The fact that it was all an unacceptable gamble is becoming clearer as each day goes by.

 

We need someone representing Britain who is 100 per cent committed to the cause, not someone who is uncertain or unsure, but someone utterly determined to deliver the democratic will of the British people.

"Because if we don't get this right, the consequences for the United Kingdom and for the economic security of ordinary working people will be dire. If we do, the opportunities ahead are great.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-latest-theresa-may-brexit-talks-jeremy-corbyn-eu-a7748431.html

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

No personal thoughts on the increase but the theory is that the reduction in rate boosted investment and increased profits leading to greater revenues. I suspect that any effect from this years reduction will get lost in the chaos.

 

Personally I think that there should be more consideration given to how companies are taxed. Rather than a simple reduction there should be rebates for targeted improvements, such as increasing the workforce or productivity.

Also, and in line with what I think you were hinting at, stricter control of questionable directors. The whole concept of having a highly paid job, company car and other benefits for showing your face a couple of hours a year is absolutely scandalous. It is this type of activity that gets business a bad name.

 

Unfortunately,  HMRC is in the same boat as all other services, underfunded.  They cannot cope with the current workload far less bring in regulation that would increase it.

They have yet to put a figure on the cost of leaving the customs union. Last estimate I saw was for 5000 additional officers, but more of a guesstimate. Obviously brexit can be funded but no money to deal with existing problems.

 

Best  way to boost investment is to allow favourable write down periods for investment. I don't buy that corporation tax should be so very much lower than income tax 

[Grouse]

20 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

One good thing from my perspective was the decision to be up front about social care issues for the elderly.  In doing so she showed integrity, fairness, and pragma, although a cynic might argue that it is merely an attempt to win the younger vote.  I'm not so sure the latter is true but will always be deeply suspicious of the Tory right, who will 'see her off' one way or another unless she follows their undemocratic agenda.

 

But one thing I need to point out: it is not enough to have a leader that is principled and with conviction- the cause has to be similarly just!  Or to put it another way: good jockey on the wrong horse.

 

 

 

Best way to fund care would be a licence fee for smart phones. 100 pounds per year?  That would generate about 4 Billion? ( All smart phones are imported BTW, so another option would special import duty) ?

[SheungWan]

40 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Dear moderators,

 

Please may we have a separate thread for UK general election topics separate from this main Brexit thread?

 

Thanks!

 

35 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Best way to fund care would be a licence fee for smart phones. 100 pounds per year?  That would generate about 4 Billion? ( All smart phones are imported BTW, so another option would special import duty) ?

Yes. Let's talk about smartphones instead.

[nauseus]

58 minutes ago, sandyf said:

So in your opinion the European Council is a bunch of unelected bureaucrats and a democratic sham.

 

"The European Council, charged with defining the EU's overall political direction and priorities,"

 

 

It is the EU Commission which fills that unelected description and which holds the real power. Your definition of the EU Council is all fine and well but it mainly just eventually accepts the offerings of the commission - the requirements for unanimous votes are very few now.

 

Almost everything originates from the commission and its president can basically select his team from suggestions from the EU countries. Although nominees for the commission have to appear before the Parliament and must be approved by national leaders in the European Council, it is essentially a process of selection, not election. Junckers' election to president was opposed by the UK and Hungary but went through anyway. Juncker is part of the European People's Party (EPP), which is the largest one within the EU and includes the Christian Democratic Union of Germany, headed by Mrs Merkel, surprise, surprise! The EPP now have effective and probably permanent control of the EU. The Presidents of the Commission, Council and Parliament are all EPP members. The EPP has majority representation in the council and parliament, so this group can propose and pass through pretty much whatever they want. 

 

Yes, you can call it democracy if you want but I like to call it a continental European monopoly, which certainly is not in the interests of the UK!! 

[Flustered]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

It is the EU Commission which fills that unelected description and which holds the real power. Your definition of the EU Council is all fine and well but it mainly just eventually accepts the offerings of the commission - the requirements for unanimous votes are very few now.

 

Almost everything originates from the commission and its president can basically select his team from suggestions from the EU countries. Although nominees for the commission have to appear before the Parliament and must be approved by national leaders in the European Council, it is essentially a process of selection, not election. Junckers' election to president was opposed by the UK and Hungary but went through anyway. Juncker is part of the European People's Party (EPP), which is the largest one within the EU and includes the Christian Democratic Union of Germany, headed by Mrs Merkel, surprise, surprise! The EPP now have effective and probably permanent control of the EU. The Presidents of the Commission, Council and Parliament are all EPP members. The EPP has majority representation in the council and parliament, so this group can propose and pass through pretty much whatever they want. 

 

Yes, you can call it democracy if you want but I like to call it a continental European monopoly, which certainly is not in the interests of the UK!! 

An excellent post which will unfortunately be completely ignored by those wanting a European Superstate.Why have diversity and richness in culture when you can have a Brussels one size fits all.

 

 

[sandyf]

With TPP back on the table has the possibility of a trade deal with the participant countries become that much more problematic?

 

http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=248342

[mommysboy]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

That would be an interesting topic in itself - How to separate the general election from brexit?

 

In a speech in Wales, the Prime Minister will seek to persuade voters that she should lead the negotiations with the European Union, rather than Jeremy Corbyn.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-latest-theresa-may-brexit-talks-jeremy-corbyn-eu-a7748431.html

 

Unfortunately I think the two are inextricably linked: so much so that many regard this as a second referendum.  Certainly, May is doing her best to support a mandate for Brexit any way the tories wll it.  Thats a fundamentally wrong stance in my viewpoint, as the issue of Brexit should be about what was mandated in the vote itself, and what people really want. 

 

It strikes me that people are being worn down with Brexit uncertainty, and to the extent they will agree to anything so far as they perceive a quick resolution, which is a wrongful perception anyway. Likewise they may very well want a stable and strong leader, but this does not mean they really want a hard Brexit.  Even half the remainers have a 'lets get it over and done with' attitude.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

It is the EU Commission which fills that unelected description and which holds the real power. Your definition of the EU Council is all fine and well but it mainly just eventually accepts the offerings of the commission - the requirements for unanimous votes are very few now.

 

Almost everything originates from the commission and its president can basically select his team from suggestions from the EU countries. Although nominees for the commission have to appear before the Parliament and must be approved by national leaders in the European Council, it is essentially a process of selection, not election. Junckers' election to president was opposed by the UK and Hungary but went through anyway. Juncker is part of the European People's Party (EPP), which is the largest one within the EU and includes the Christian Democratic Union of Germany, headed by Mrs Merkel, surprise, surprise! The EPP now have effective and probably permanent control of the EU. The Presidents of the Commission, Council and Parliament are all EPP members. The EPP has majority representation in the council and parliament, so this group can propose and pass through pretty much whatever they want. 

 

Yes, you can call it democracy if you want but I like to call it a continental European monopoly, which certainly is not in the interests of the UK!! 

So you accept that you were not quite right when you said "the rest".

 

"At least the MEP's are fairly elected in their own countries. The rest is a democratic sham!"

[sandyf]

18 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Unfortunately I think the two are inextricably linked: so much so that many regard this as a second referendum.  Certainly, May is doing her best to support a mandate for Brexit any way the tories wll it.  Thats a fundamentally wrong stance in my viewpoint, as the issue of Brexit should be about what was mandated in the vote itself, and what people really want. 

 

It strikes me that people are being worn down with Brexit uncertainty, and to the extent they will agree to anything so far as they perceive a quick resolution, which is a wrongful perception anyway. Likewise they may very well want a stable and strong leader, but this does not mean they really want a hard Brexit.  Even half the remainers have a 'lets get it over and done with' attitude.

Quite, the election is just another skirmish in the brexit battle, unfortunately battle fatigue may well shape the future.

 

You never know, Labour may well have re-entry to the single market in its 2022 manifesto, by that time the uncertainty will have become certain.

[nauseus]

29 minutes ago, sandyf said:

So you accept that you were not quite right when you said "the rest".

 

"At least the MEP's are fairly elected in their own countries. The rest is a democratic sham!"

Yes, my error, accepted, but only w.r.t. the Council. But, overall, from a democratic aspect, the EU is a sham. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by nauseus

[nauseus]

Some  interesting EU-related quotes for your enjoyment:

 

Claud Cheysson, former French Foreign Minister and member of the European Commission: "The Europe of Maastricht could only have been created in the absence of democracy"

 

Raymonde Barre, French Prime Minister and Commissioner "I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account"

 

Costas Verras, President of the Brussels Association of Journalists "The Commission acts like a military junta"

 

M. Willy de Clerq, MEP "EC Governments should not try to explain the Maastricht Treaty. It is unexplainable. Treaty decisions are far too removed from daily life for people to understand"

 

Edward Heath "There are some who fear that, in going into Europe, we in some way will sacrifice independence and democracy.....These fears I need hardly add are completely unjustified"

 

 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

Yes. Let's talk about smartphones instead.

It was a joke gentlemen. Sorry! ? 

[Grouse]

The U bend queen strikes again!

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-dementia-tax-u-turn-pensioners-labour-corbyn-general-election-conservative-tory-poll-a7749001.html

 

Yep, certainly a solid negotiator; should take up poker....

[In the jungle]

A strong and stable U turn?

[mommysboy]

People are putting up 'Strong and stable my arse' signs up across London.

 

 

Labour enjoys stunning turn around in Wales.

[SheungWan]

14 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yes, my error, accepted, but only w.r.t. the Council. But, overall, from a democratic aspect, the EU is a sham. 

When some Brexiteers witter on about 'democratic aspects', they are invariably the same guys who were blowing their trumpets for Royal Prerogative Vs parliamentary democracy and  against the UK Law Courts just a few months ago.

Edited May 22, 2017 by SheungWan

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, SheungWan said:

When some Brexiteers witter on about 'democratic aspects', they are invariably the same guys who were blowing their trumpets for Royal Prerogative Vs parliamentary democracy and  against the UK Law Courts just a few months ago.

And the same old remainers have no real argument to show how wonderfully democratic the EU is, as usual.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

And the same old remainers have no real argument to show how wonderfully democratic the EU is, as usual.

It's no good getting stuck on rather abstract concepts of democracy; ultimately, it ends up a nonsense argument that ignores the real issues of governance.

 

I'm more concerned with a small power elite in Westminster than the one in Brussels.

 

I see there's been a terrorist attack!

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

And the same old remainers have no real argument to show how wonderfully democratic the EU is, as usual.

The UK used to lead the field in the aviation and vehicle industries, what went wrong.

The great UK democracy does not cater for any long term industrial strategy, no government can ever anticipate more than a single term in office. UK governments have always been and will always be firefighting. The big difference post brexit is that all government income will be lost in the firefighting and any project funding similar to that provided by the EU will be a distant memory.

Nobody has ever claimed that the EU is "wonderfully democratic" , it really was a choice of the lesser of 2 evils and time will tell if it was the wrong choice.

 

So far we have had Teresa May go to court in an attempt to bypass parliament, hurled abuse and threats at the EU negotiators, done a U turn on calling a general election, refused expats the right to vote, refused to debate with the main party leader, penalise pensioners in her manifesto and within days try and deny it.

No doubt the brexiteers can justify her actions and make out she is acting in best interests of everyone., time to wake up to reality, 'democratic sham' is closer to home than you think.

[nauseus]

28 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The UK used to lead the field in the aviation and vehicle industries, what went wrong.

The great UK democracy does not cater for any long term industrial strategy, no government can ever anticipate more than a single term in office. UK governments have always been and will always be firefighting. The big difference post brexit is that all government income will be lost in the firefighting and any project funding similar to that provided by the EU will be a distant memory.

Nobody has ever claimed that the EU is "wonderfully democratic" , it really was a choice of the lesser of 2 evils and time will tell if it was the wrong choice.

 

So far we have had Teresa May go to court in an attempt to bypass parliament, hurled abuse and threats at the EU negotiators, done a U turn on calling a general election, refused expats the right to vote, refused to debate with the main party leader, penalise pensioners in her manifesto and within days try and deny it.

No doubt the brexiteers can justify her actions and make out she is acting in best interests of everyone., time to wake up to reality, 'democratic sham' is closer to home than you think.

You are way off the (EU exit) topic and this UK election issue should be split off. You appear to pick out industry as a personal pet topic. Only one of the "evils" that you mention can be directly the choice of the British people. Some EU subsidies are good but the money is basically ours in the first place! The choices of national leaders don't seem to get any better either - the US is the classic example - but maybe one day the UK will have the chance to vote in a winner, which seems to be impossible as far as the EU goes. Yes time will tell but the big fire is yet to burn the EU due to the common currency and other poor policies.